Oh sorry, you're right in that
I agree with you in general, but I would allow for the possibility with legwork and success count.

Of course, we could argue that if you can change physical properties with it and fool any sort of physical detection, than you should be able to fool Physics as well. If you make someone appear to be a gas cloud they should be able to float. If you make someone appear as a street sam, they should get the bonuses for the street sam's 'ware. If you make a dead body appear alive, it should be able to get back up and get back into the fight. Obviously, that's ridiculous. There has to be a line where an illusion is just an illusion. Illusions break-down when they start interacting with things, because they still have to interact with things in the way they would without the illusion.
Physical illusions are problematic for this reason, because they begin to breakdown immediately as soon as you think about them too much. To use your razor blade example, the blade can feel blunt, but once it has cut the individual the illusion does not magically (pun intended) stop them from sensing the pain and knowing immediately that the razor was in fact sharp. This should be a huge clue that an illusion is in play. Smell is actually an even bigger issue than touch, because smelling something involves a chemical reaction. Is the spell actually causing the chemical reaction to occur? If it is, than is it really an illusion and wouldn't an illusion of chlorine be just as deadly? If no, and it is merely making the person think that the reaction has occurred, isn't that essentially a mana illusion? Ultimately, it's magic and we just have to decide how it works at our own tables.

I usually leave the personalities out of my arguments, but I will reciprocate according when accused of being a munchkin. Generally I will point out the Rules As Written, when others refuse to acknowledge the limits they are imposing are not stated within the scope of the rules. Rampant or not, creative or not, there are limits imposed by the rules, some rules allow for a broader ability, others are much smaller in scope. There are problems but reading rules where there are none is not something I can accept.

Thorya: The physical illusion rules do not say that it is able to fool physics, so it does not.

Mask affects the minds of the viewers. I can see an argument for both sides, on the one hand biometrics are physical characteristics that can be changed. On the other, those are some really small details to reproduce. I'd personally prefer to have it allowed but nigh impossible.

Physical mask is a multi-sense illusion as such it fools touch, but it's still an illusion which means it conceals what's really there it doesn't change it. As such your fingerprint would still be your own, but you might be able to fool a retinal scan if you knew exactly how someones Iris looks, that would require knowledge, close study and very good memory (as you can't plug an input into your spells)
That said, trying to explain magic with logic, physics or any other measurable metric falls to pieces pretty quickly. It's magic, it defies explanation and rationale despite what fluffy explanation you put on it... Because it's bloody magic.

So, only a Perception test with microscopic vision with a threshold of ... 8+? And an equal memory test if you don't use the spell right away?

Agreed it breaks down quickly.

My question is: If it can fool the sense of touch by exerting a different pressure than the object actually has when touched as asserted earlier, does it allow you to walk on a land mine without setting it off? That's just pressure in the downward direction. Or be supported by a cardboard tube if your physical mask is something extremely light? Is it because the technology is "smart" that it can be fooled? Would you set off a land mine, but not a pressure plate that triggers an alarm because that's a "sensor"?

I don't think you can change your apparent weight enough for it to matter.
It fools sensors in the way that they to see your mask, not that they don't see you.

The trigger on a land mine is also a sensor (according to WAR!)

Edited my post, the sensor don't think you're not there it just sees your mask aswell. A pressure plate is very indiscriminate with who steps on it, as such it wouldn't matter what you masks as.

Even if you mask as an air spirit that's levitating a few inches off the ground? I can't make the sensor read not enough weight to trigger the alarm? (Assuming there is a lower limit to prevent false alarms)

Strictly by RAW, it's a greyzone. I'd argue that RAI mask is supposed to be a disguise spell not a shapechange spell, and physical mask is there so that someone cannot simply look at you through their smart goggles and realise the illusion.

What if there is no sensor? What if you're approaching a building after some fresh snow fall and a gaurd notices footprints? Isn't that the exact kind of thing that can break an illusion or aren't there WTF checks in 4a? Are you saying the illusion should somehow fool the snow? I would think the touch aspect is intended to be more about texture and feel rather than force, you're masked as wearing a silk shirt when it's actually a polyblend sort of thing. If you want to make your illusion more convincing and less likely to break with some levitation, then why not cast levitation? Does it really seem like a legitimate option for bypassing a mine field should be "I make myself look like I'm a hovering creature and fake hover across"? It doesn't seem to me like it should be, and I don't play 4a but it seems like some of the stuff people are suggesting this illusion spell can do is more a physical manipulation, and that should be enough grounds for a GM atleast to not allow it.

Though I guess what qualifies as an illusion, especially when physical touching is involved is going to mean slightly different things to different people, and thus always be a bit contentious.

I remember using Trid Phantasm "I'm not there" and arguing that meant doors I opened and closed didn't look like they had opened and closed and thus no suspicions would be raised when I entered a room. The GM eventually had me smack a door into someone on the otherside, the Illusion couldn't cover the obvious contradiction and the guy got his check, which he luckily failed and it was passed off as muscle pang or something. That seemed pretty fair.

As for biometrics, if you do decide to use rules to make it difficult instead of just saying "no", wouldn't it be easier and more sensible at that point to use some technical way to fool them, like a glove with fake prints on it and use mask to hide that you're using it?

What was my point again?

EDIT:

Oh yeah, what he said.

We're not even to the logical extremes yet. If you can create the sensation of heat and light, you can fool sensors over a range of electromagnetic wavelengths. You should be able to use Physical Mask in place of a pass card or rfid device. Heck if you can mimic biometrics, you should be able to mimic a matrix signal. They're just as complicated. Maybe you should be able to hack using your Physical Mask. Good luck tracing that commlink after the run.

And I could use it to cause the nauseate chemical effect, by mimicing a very offensive odor. Or set off the fire suppression system in a building by masking as a burning body. Man this spell is awesome, why didn't I ever give it to one of my mages? I could just appear as a blinding body of light so bright that I convince all of the sensors that they are burned out and anyone looking at me that they are blinded. Hmm, I could even make my physical appearance that of a black hole (of roughly the same shape and size as myself obviously). My physical properties change and the pressure I exert on others changes, so that everyone and everything that fails their resistance test for the illusion is instantly convinced that they've been crushed to nothing and pulled in by my supergravity (or are they actually crushed, that's the part that was confusing me about the pressure plate/land mine scenario). Now, how does someone that thinks they've crossed the event horizon behave? Do you think they would all run at me full force? I wish I was playing in a game right now. These are the type of questions I love to make GM's sort out.

Everyone knows, if you die in your mind, you actually die, or atleast become a vegetable. I think all fiction dealing with that ever has asserted such.

Ninjas suddenly make more sense.

You appear to give off a Matrix signal, but you do not actually do so.

It smells exactly like the offensive odor without having the same debilitating effects of the chemical.

The burning body could be used to set off the fire suppression system, except that the indirect effects of a burning body are not produced, like an increase in CO2 in the atmosphere or the bodies close to the burning body do not register any increase in temperature.

You appear to be a black hole, but you are not actually a black hole. So while the pressure exerted on others appear to change, no one is actually pulled towards you.

Just follow the RAW and you can get your answers easily.

There is a scientific term to describe that, it's called spaghettification.
But no it wouldn't work, it would give the affected like an infinite numbers of attempts to resist it, reducing the net hits of the mask at an exponential rate as they're drawn into a warped timespace where their atoms imploding are drawn out to an near infinite personal time experience and in actual unwarped time they instantly fully resist the illusion.

I just solved magic with science...
Be afraid, be very afraid...

You're really not seeing the contradictions there, toturi?

I can appear to transmit an apparent matrix signal that fools computers and they should respond accordingly, does it actually need to be a real matrix signal at that point? What's the functional difference. If it appears to be a matrix signal and the computers don't react accordingly, than what is the point of being able to full sensors if they'll just react as if they saw through the illusion?

When your body senses chemicals it's nauseated by the sensing, which is a physiological/psychological reaction, but because it's an illusion that tells the body it's sensing something the body suddenly doesn't respond to the stimuli?

So back to the finger print scan, the sensor reads the finger print, but then the computer system doesn't respond by opening the door?

The land mind is moved down, but because it doesn't think it's moved down the high explosives and the detonator don't react?

Those bodies close to the burning body don't feel (or register) any heat? But then infrared scanners would have to thwart physical masks and trolls can just flat out see through every illusion. Or are you making the mirror argument? That a real hot body will heat other things, but that an illusion isn't reflected as heat from these other objects? In that case, a sensor could easily detect an illusion by just comparing electromagnetic data from any nearby surface with a subject. So all we need are mirrored surfaces inside our electronic sensors and they're safe from illusions?

Also, the running at me would be due to them believing there was an overwhelming force acting on them. Perhaps they would instead try to run away to resist that perceived force.

Because you any heat you'd created from the illusion wouldn't be real and thus wouldn't interact with the circuits of a cardreader, also you wouldn't be able to create an electromagnetic sensation. Because it does replicate any sensory input.


The body isn't reacting to the odor it's responding to the chemical element in the odor. It would smell bad and be distracting but it wouldn't cause nausea. Again you create purely sensory sensations, the active ingredient wouldn't be there


It would feel a finger but if your print doesn't match the biometric database you're out of luck.
You're creating a sensation of touch but your print is the same.


Weight is not a sensory sensation it's a physical phenomenon.


Yes, surrounding objects doesn't give a damn how hot you pretend to be, there will be your artificial heat extending from your body but the floor won't similarly heat up. Building materials don't have senses that can be fooled.


That would be a manipulation spell not an illusion spell.

I think you're being difficult just for the sake of it now, Thorya.

What is light if not an electromagnetic sensation?



But your bodies reaction isn't a result of the active ingredient, it's a result of sensing the active ingredient (i.e. the chemical reaction that occurs when the active ingredient interacts with your body). To put it another way, think of something spicy. Your body still reacts as if there is something hot there, even though the nerves are just being tricked. You can be distracted, sweat, have your eyes water. Are your nerves tricked in a different way with an illusion that doesn't allow your body to respond the same?



But the pressure exerted by the weight is a sensory sensation. And everything being discussed here are physical phenomenon. We're talking about altering physical characteristics. Except when we're not, because physical characteristics only mean things that can be observed?



Yes. But again, it means that a mirror becomes a foolproof illusion stopper.



I'm just trying to point out that RAW is a ridiculous argument that is thrown around way too often with magic. RAW allows a lot of ridiculous and contradictory things, because it's a game book not a physics text book (though those allow a lot of ridiculous and contradictory things too). These sort of RAW to their logical extremes discussions should be funny, because no one actually plays RAW all the time, the game world does not actually work RAW, and systems are at their most fun when you break them with their own rules. Come on, you're saying you wouldn't want to try using a physical mask of a black hole just once?

I probably would find something more kosher for my blackhole urges

maybe the real question shouldn't be "can they do this with illusions?", but instead "should they be able to do this with illusions?"

Let's assume for a moment that all of what has been mentioned is possible with illusions. The biometrics, the hacking, the blinding, all of it. Should it be that way? How does it affect the world, and the gameplay? if the rules allow this, then should the rules be used as written, or changed.

rules as written is just getting into rules lawyering, but unless you're all playing shadowrunning lawyers, and paralegals...
What's important is does it make it more or less fun.

if the rules say "a mage who casts the win spell, wins", then that's pretty clear. you can go into what it means by win, but really, pretty clear. casting win wins. Now, should it be like that, should you even allow the win spell? Are the rules themselves wrong?

Which is why I have a Spell LIKE physical Mask, but is a Manipulation Spell Instead.



And you can solve these with Custom Manipulation Spells. But you are right about the Illusions.

So Exactly what does "other Physical Characteristics" cover then? The problem is, it never says. It is left vague. In my opinion, a Physical Characteristic that you cannot obtain would be impossible for you to create an illusion for. *shrug*

But you can only mask to the same basic size and shape (it is an ILLUSION not a MANIPULATION). Your weight is a function of your size and shape (and composition), so you cannot alter how much "Pressure" you exert on that pressure plate. so no, you cannot walk across a field full of landmines and ignore them. That is what Traceless Walk is for.

Traceless walk if they're pressure sensors. (some of them use vibrabomb type sensors to detect footsteps and ground vibrations). But why not just levitate if you're already tossing spells. Oh wait that's a manipulation....

Lets take this another direction as well.... forget physical mask... that's only a LIMITED version of trid phantasm. Why not just go completely holodeck on them. (though I disagree with the illusion of the backside of the door not opening... you have no idea what it looks like so how would you craft the illusion? And if you get the colors and signage or doorknob style on the backside of the door people won't notice?).


All the loophole arguments devolve into one point which I think falls apart that illusions can create force and push back at things. I don't buy it. It's an illusion what does it mean to stimulate all 5 senses...
Sight; 'nuf said
Sound; 'nuf said
Taste/Smell; pretty much the same thing... boy this soy tastes different today far better than the normal soy.
Touch: it can simulate the illusion of heat/cold (hot potato anyone)... but I don't think it actually produces any 'tactile' senses... because it's an illusion not a manipulation.

Remember this whole thing started because someone complained that the spell allowed people do things that are silly but because others insist on the most expansive reading of all other senses possible... instead of all other senses consistent with the limitations of an illusion.

How dirty was that supposed to sound? Maybe I haven't had enough sleep... but it sounds really dirty.

Not at all
Black holes is one of my favourite astronomical phenomenon, I find them fascinating.

Yes, but you give the ILLUSION of weight, texture, and many other things. You can have a naked guy with Physical Mask appear to be fully clothed, and anyone who touched his shoulder would feel his shirt. What they're talking about is simply the extension of this. In the earlier case of the minicar Masked into a bus, people would believe in the illusion of touching a bus and interacting with it - they would not allow themselves to "go through" the bus. You would give the fingerprint scanner the illusion of the correct prints, making it respond accordingly, but leaving your real prints behind on the touchscreen. And so forth.


As do I, but it's important to remember that they're still theoretical, in spite of the circumstantial evidence to support them (last I heard, that is). Not saying they don't have very good circumstantial evidence, just that it's not proven yet. For the sake of objectivity I think we should keep that in mind.

So if you make an illusion of a gun, and shoot someone with its illusion bullets, do they still take real damage?

Nope, but they might act appropriately if they fail to see through it.
EDIT: Note, I don't think they should be forced to act that way. Instead they should get a new save, with a massive bonus since they obviously didn't take any damage. The bonus could be mitigated by making it look like the the bullet didn't penetrate the armor or something.

I agree, but what happens if they fail said check?

That the same as shooting them with mind bullets?

That's telekinesis, Kyle.

And that's the crux, isn't it?
I would go this way: illusions can target the senses. This means you can make an illusion which can fool sight and hearing (obviously), but also taste, smell, and touch.
You can make normal illusions, which people can recognize as 'false', and you can make realistic illusions, which can fool the senses completely.

So, sight and sound is obvious and easy, but what about other senses? I figure 'smell' and 'taste' would be easy as well. Something 'smells' like food, but you can't place what it is unless it is realistic. You could make someone taste something and they might be able to identify it if it isn't realistic as 'something', but you'd need realistic to get all the flavours and details correct.

Touch is the tricky one. I figure, you could make a sensation under normal circumstances - make it feel like 'pressure' or 'resistance'. So, a full-sensation, crude, illusionary person shakes someone's hand. He would feel 'pressure' on his hand, though it wouldn't feel a person's hand. Making a person see his hand burning, he might feel 'something' on his hand, and react with alarm if it was crude.

But when you get into realistic illusions, things become fun. You could give an object the illusion of weight. The person would 'feel' the resistance, and would strain to pick up the object. However, regardless of how 'heavy' you make the object feel, and no matter how much he'd think he'd need to strain to lift it, it would still weigh how much it actually weighs. Much of the strain would be self-inflicted. You could make someone's hand appear to burn, and he'd feel the pain of having his flesh burn - but it wouldn't do anything, really.

The way I see it is that it would register as touch / impact / force, but actually apply no kinetic energy. So if you whack someone in the head with an illusionary baseball bat, they'd flinch - and perhaps flinch violently, but there'd be no actual damage, and no kinetic force. They'd react to the sensation. In a way it would be similar to AR simsense. Someone gets shot in the game, and it feels like they were really shot - but there's no kinetic force behind it - the target's own muscle spasms and reactions would be what sends them sprawling from the 'shot'.

Now, the fun part is - if you feel an object, and it 'feels' heavy, you may trick yourself into thinking it's too heavy to move. Your muscles would lock and tense against the illusionary weight, but until you actually make the attempt, you won't know whether or not you can lift it. If you go to an illusionary door and put your hand on it, you'd feel the 'resistance', and the grain of the wood and such, but unless you push against the door, you won't know it isn't there. Mind, if someone bumps you against it, you'll feel the 'resistance', even as you pass right through it without any problems.

-- you know, considering this -- I can easily see illusionary spells which inflict stun damage, simply from shock and trauma. If you make someone feel like they're burning, or crawling with spiders, and hit the 'realistic' button, you're going to do horrible, psychological harm to the target -- to the point where they may actually freak and pass out.

And that's where I disagree with you and others Tashiro.... the sense of touch on an illusion has always classically been limited to merely creating the sensation of heat or cold as appropriate. Illusions have no matter and have never exerted any kind of force. As soon as you step over that line you're into manipulations and no longer casting illusions.


You want to make something appear heavier than it is... it's called levitate... and push down or up on the object making it appear heavier or lighter. You want to manipulate an object or shake hands at a distance... it's called "Magic fingers". And if people were talking about casting both the illusion and magic fingers to pull off some limited aspects of this such as shaking a hand or having their illusion manipulate real world objects... more power to them.

As soon as you allow illusions to exert any kind of force you open a huge can of worms.

Then they act as appropriate for someone who was just shot, maybe justifying the lack of blood as their armor containing it.



Agreed, they exert no force, just the feeling of it.

What's appropriate for someone who was just shot? Passing Out? Dying? Fear and shock could make those a realistic possibility. How do you decide which? Some sort of test for heart conditions maybe?

Not trying to be difficult, I'm genuinely interested in how people would handle the Illusion of Death. Tashiro's post has got me thing this seems like something a player might legitimately try, or at the very least throwing an NPC who disables his victims with Illusions at some players. Or is this heading back into control manipulations do you think?

For the most part, they flinch and act injured (if the victim doesn't change actions due to injuries then that was a poor choice of spells ). Although, if I was GMing, one of my players knew it was an Illusionist, and they decide to ignore the injury because it is "obviously" an illusion, then more power to them. After their boxes are full, I would let them know that at least 30% of the "illusions" were real, more if the Illusionist realized they were ignoring the "illusions".

Thank you, now I'm listening to Tenacious D at 7:40 AM.

Just use the "Agony" Spell for that.

Tiberius,

First and foremost I would like to congratulate you on your mature postures, regarding your game, campaign and characters. I particulary enjoyed how you questioned the "shoot the mage" and "neutralize the mage" solutions. I just hate when some fellows GM/DMs alter an entire Universe so the character become less effective - its poor campaign design in my opinion.

As far as I could underestand you have 2 issues: the sociopath itself and the fact that the character is a mage. For both it's interesting that you openly talk about it with the player(s). Let it out of your chest, its helpfull.

For the sociopathic issue, I think its much more campaign related: its about the player and DM/GM expectations, and it all comes down to the moral context. You seem to be a guy that its bothered by sociopathic behavior - that's GOOD. In my opinion most Shadowrun Campaigns I have heard about (actually most RPGs campaigns in general) lack moral guidelines. The Shadowrun books are not helpfull in this sense, as they portray the runners as badasses and with weird street honor codes that make no sense most of the time. Problem is: if you game was a movie, what kind of movie would be? If you are happy with a movie about a bunch of badasses that worry only about the next month rent, prostitutes, drugs and the next badass upgrade (cyber, spell, whatever), well the rules will solve all issues. Now, if you prefer an action movie about heroes or anti-heroes that care about something, well... it all changes, and the game become much more complex, and much more interesting. Its a decicion about the campaign that should be openly discussed with the players, becuse somethimes we DM/GMs wants something, and the players wants another...

Now for the mage issues. I strongly recommend that you and your players take a deep look at those rules. For your description I can imagine that something is wrong with 2 aspects of the magic rules: the chance to notice spells and the drain. For the first one we have to take a look on "how obvious is spellcasting", there are rules there, very interesting ones; that makes very complicated to cast those spells during social interactions, its not forbidden, just tricky enough that it won't work everytime. And if the mage decides to cast, say, at force 1, it limits the hits he can have (not net hits). For the second part, strike me as odd that your mage can use drain-heavy spells enough to compromise your encounters, without sacrificing her. look, the mages/shamans have this peculiarity: they exaust or even hurt themselves to get the most dificult jobs done, so maybe you and your friends are overlooking something about the drain rules.

Again I congratulate you, as you are resisting the temptation of just hammering down the mage. In my opinion, if someone else was a sociopath (say a street samurai), and he was exploding houses with people inside, breaking people necks for no good reason, torturing people and paracritters all the time to get his information; i believe the authorities, corps, friends of his enemies would start investigating as well. Its not about the spellcasting, its about the moral mayhem.

I hope it helps, as a long time reader, I decided to subscribe to be able to post this.

There's nothing saying that illusions in Shadowrun need to mirror 'classic' (I'll read that as 'D&D') illusions. There's plenty of legends where illusions do a hell of a lot more than just sight and sound, and weak sensations. Notice I said that illusionary 'weight' doesn't provide force. Just the perception of force. If someone takes a pillow and makes an illusion that it's a sack of oats, and add the illusion of weight, the person's going to 'feel' like it weighs like a sack of oats, and act accordingly (straining, grunting, etc), because he 'feels' it weighs as much as a sack of oats. It doesn't however, the sensation of pressure and strain is all from contact. The GM doesn't enforce extra encumbrance, doesn't say 'it's too heavy to lift', or whatever, but he can say 'it feels too heavy, but you manage to lift it anyway'.



You're missing the point. Levitate creates force. Illusion can create the perception of force. If you use levitate to push down on an item it doesn't 'appear' to be heavier, it is heavier. I didn't say illusions could 'manipulate objects' or 'shake hands from a distance'. You're adding all sorts of things to what I said - that I explicitly didn't say. If you use an illusion to shake someone's hand - they will get the impression of contact and pressure, but there won't be any actual pressure. The skin doesn't move on their palm, if they curl their fingers, they'll grasp nothing but air.



I agree, which is why I said that it doesn't. Just the perception of force. Honestly, if you're going to try to refute what I'm saying, please look at what I actually said.

Edit: One last thing. If a dwarf tries to make an illusion of being a troll, and adds tactile sense, it won't do much. If someone 'brushes up' against the troll, they might not notice they passed through the troll if they aren't paying attention. They'll 'feel' the contact of bumping him, but again - there's no force behind the sensation. They might notice that bumping him didn't interrupt their momentum at all. That's how I'd rule it.

Tashiro's examples remind me of something akin to a hypnotic suggestion. I tell you something is so heavy that you will not be able to lift it, your body obeys your mind, and you cannot lift it. Making someone believe they've been shot also falls into this category, to the best of my estimation.

This creates a shady line for me regarding when an illusion becomes a mental manipulation. For the sake of this argument, I'll agree that these are still illusion spells.

How do you translate taking that hypnotic suggestion, that illusion, of weight, and turning it into a physical illusion that could fool a sensor? Or a fingerprint reader?

Well the fingerprint scanner is basically an eye under a glass plate, but I think the standard is they're too smart and can now be fooled by illusions.

The difference, I would imagine, is that with an illusion, they can lift the weight, it just 'feels' heavy. If it is a mental manipulation, they can't, because they're convinced it's too heavy. I think the final line is that illusions can't force you to take an action, you still have the ability to make your own decision, while a mental manipulation removes your personal agency. I think what it boils down to is that illusions can do everything that simsense can do.

You raise a good question though - Physical illusions are tricky. Can a a physical illusion cause a scent-based trigger to go off? Well, can a physical illusion trigger a motion detector? I know physical illusions show up on cameras, and can be picked up by microphones, but no, I don't think physical illusions would, say, trigger scent-detectors, or pressure plates or motion detectors. It might trip an IR beam (since it will block the beam), but it won't trigger a motion detector that uses, say, sonar - there's no physical mass.

Actually many of them aren't cameras... instead being touch/pressure sensors. At that point you're more at the illusion interacting with a touchpad.... which shouldn't happen. If it were always only a camera... I wouldn't have raised the point.


In any case, this thread shot off... when people started to make assertions that a Physical Mask would allow them to bypass biometric sensors and is a broken spell. Only possible if you allow the most broken possible reading of what an illusion is... and allow it to create force and interact with objects as if it were a manipulation and not an illusion spell. So rather than tightening the definition of an illusion is and can do to something which makes sense... they instead try to argue an illusion is not merely an illusion/hologram.


But all physical illusions are nothing more than smoke and mirrors... there is no elemental of mental tomfoolery (like mana illusions which only create images in the minds of living creatures which see them) because they also need to affect machinery and drones. So hence we get into this silly... oh it only creates the illusion of force... you either create a force to push back with or you don't. It's either a purely a mental effect (a non-physical illusion... or it's a light/smell/heat show as a physical illusion. It can't create the impression of anything... it must actually produce a physical effect of same for the spell to be a PHYSICAL illusion.

Again we're dealing with physical illusions here... which can interact with drones... none of this... creates the 'impression of force'. When the drones pressure/torque sensor in it's claw senses resistance it's because something is actually pushing back on it and creating an actual force.

To me anything worth protecting will have mage support. But depending on the GM view of the world YMMV. Magic is also the big scary meaning anyone that does magic in a combat situation will draw attention to themselves and get a lot of lead flying in their direction. Embrace it, for geek the mage first has been part of SR lore since 1st ed.

Mob mind, control thoughts, alter memory, and mind probe are not the end all be all of casting. Mob mind, control thoughts are limited in duration, eventually the NPC will break free. Mind probe is limited to what the NPC knows, which includes false information. Altermemory is tricky cause after a while it wears off or is disrupted when the true facts come to life.

The manatech route is another possibility, it just depends on how sophisticated/well equipped the opposition is.

Nope, because magic.

Nope.

It's because .... let's put it in more matrix-y terms for a moment: The sensors in the drone that tell it how much weight it's trying to lift, and so on ... all those pressure/tactile sensors? Those are a Device (sub)node. They send a signal to the core processor. And, the spell SPOOFS that signal to be one that indicates weight, pressure, whatever.

Now, do you see? The drone think there's pressure or force being applied ... when there isn't. But, all the drone (or a person fo that matter) knows of the universe, even their own body, is what information their senses send to theri brain.

The spell takes control of that information. Nothing more, nothing less.