Sengir
Feb 2 2013, 11:39 PM
QUOTE (tasti man LH @ Feb 2 2013, 10:33 PM)

Well, the Eye of the Hurricanes stories do suggest that something funky is happening regarding the Resonance and that's its' screwing with TMs...
Or it could just be a single TM with a bad blackout...or maybe it's a side effect of dealing with the
special allies of the N'drangheta...
Epicedion
Feb 3 2013, 12:08 AM
Ideally, I'd like to see things go back to hackers plugging their brains into things and Technomancers go back to being more techno and less mancer, a la Otaku.
A short-and-sweet use of the cyberdeck as hardware limitations on the brain/computer interface would be kind of cool -- instead of using a large host of programs they could simply rely on a quick set of hardware statistics to affect the various Matrix actions (ha ha, ACIFS). That is to say, searching a system for a file could be a Logic + Data Search test, limited by the deck's (for lack of a better term) Index rating. Breaking into a system could be a Logic + Hacking test, limited by Access.
In fact, in that instance I'd sort of like to see them slyly nod with a four-stat ACFS model, for Access, Control, File, and Security. Access: breaking in, system analysis, system-level modifications (spoofing, etc); Control: manipulation of attached devices; File: encryption/decryption, data searches; Security: cybercombat, detection avoidance, tracking. In this sort of model you could then simply provide a system a Security rating and any IC would have appropriate attribute/skill combinations (so an Attack IC could roll its Pilot + Cybercombat, limited by the system Security rating). A security decker would simply bring his own deck with its own ACFS type ratings to the party. Security rating for a system could establish the breaking-in difficulty, so a Security 4 system could simply have a threshold of 4 to hack in, which would make Security 6 systems a crapshoot even for your 18-dice Logic 6 + Hacking 12 superstars (though there would surely be some modifiers available to help the odds).
Umidori
Feb 3 2013, 01:31 AM
Personally, the Eye of the Hurricane story made me think that maybe Technomancy is becoming a two-way street - that now machines are becoming able to manipulate them.
Sure, you can hack that fancy system with nothing more than your mind, but maybe your mind itself can now be hacked by others. Sort of a Ghost in The Shell mindhack kinda thing.
~Umi
Lionhearted
Feb 3 2013, 01:36 AM
Body snatching AI and mindhacks... Weren't we done with shedim?
Bigity
Feb 3 2013, 02:06 AM
Quick, I need to hit the streets and find a rating 6 Ares Predator V!
Stahlseele
Feb 3 2013, 12:10 PM
Post from Primetide from SRO
QUOTE
The cat is out of the proverbial bag. Everybody has comlinks. But hacking needs a deck!
Demonseed Elite
Feb 3 2013, 04:07 PM
I like the Accuracy mechanic and the general idea behind the Attribute + Skill (12 point cap) limited by another stat. I want to hear more, but the idea is appealing.
Also, I love the return of cyberdecks. But I also need to hear more. Beyond the fluff concept of plugging into a deck, what are the new differences? I'm curious!
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Feb 2 2013, 07:08 PM)

Ideally, I'd like to see things go back to hackers plugging their brains into things and Technomancers go back to being more techno and less mancer, a la Otaku.
Amen.
Stahlseele
Feb 3 2013, 04:10 PM
Somebody probably figured out how dumb it is that everybody and their mom runs around with a comlink that's capable of being used to hack into all sorts of stuff . .
It's like everybody running around with different kinds of pistol after all . .
This way, otto normalo can run around with his AR capable smartphone, err, comlink, and the real professionals use something that will compute circles around these toys in full VR . .
Draco18s
Feb 3 2013, 05:22 PM
QUOTE (Sengir @ Feb 2 2013, 10:36 AM)

You either just broke your NDA, or this remains to be seen

No, because all I have to do is look at the current karma costs and extrapolate.
* Draco18s phases out of the conversation*
All4BigGuns
Feb 3 2013, 05:38 PM
Posted the following on the other forum, but thought it might be a good idea to bring it over here.
QUOTE
All in all, attributes maintaining the same maximums they have now with the skills being expanded like they've already said they're doing is not a bad thing in my opinion. Attributes will end up giving less to any single given skill, but this is offset somewhat by the breadth they give (a generalist will NEVER be as good as a specialist).
Strictly by the math, a human will be able to advance either a single skill or attribute to the maximum in the same amount of karma/time using the advancement method I suggested* (again assuming attribute maximums remain the same), which is another point of being rather even on things. Granted, once you start throwing meta-humans in there, the attributes will take longer to reach maximum, but since their maximums are higher, they should cost more and take longer. However, in character creation, the 'penalties' (which are largely just reduced maximums) could be applied before points are spent, but the 'bonuses' should probably be applied afterward. That way the Karma Generation system could be made the baseline core creation method, and all of these complaints revolving around "karma efficiency" can be squashed.
* This 'suggested' would be spending New Rating x 4 to raise attributes and just New Rating to raise skills. It comes to 80 karma for a human to max out a natural attribute and 80 karma to max out a single skill with a specialty using the new cap mentioned in the blog-post.
Nath
Feb 3 2013, 05:41 PM
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Feb 3 2013, 05:10 PM)

Somebody probably figured out how dumb it is that everybody and their mom runs around with a comlink that's capable of being used to hack into all sorts of stuff . .
It's like everybody running around with different kinds of pistol after all . .
On the other, nowadays, everybody and their mom have a desktop or laptop computer at home that's capable of being used to hack into all sorts of stuff. If it's not already the case with smartphone, it's only because most people stick to the padded OS they were given.
Sengir
Feb 3 2013, 07:06 PM
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Feb 3 2013, 06:22 PM)

No, because all I have to do is look at the current karma costs and extrapolate.
In other words, making up numbers based on the assumption that Karma costs (which were already changed by as much as 66% in the middle of the current edition) will not change in 5th...sounds legit.
All4BigGuns
Feb 3 2013, 07:09 PM
QUOTE (Sengir @ Feb 3 2013, 01:06 PM)

In other words, making up numbers based on the assumption that Karma costs (which were already changed by as much as 66% in the middle of the current edition) will not change in 5th...sounds legit.
Actually, it is legitimate. He's just using the costs available at the time since any knowledge of what they'll be in the future is lacking. Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it not legitimate.
Draco18s
Feb 3 2013, 07:10 PM
* Draco18s phases back into the conversation*QUOTE (Sengir @ Feb 3 2013, 02:06 PM)

In other words, making up numbers based on the assumption that Karma costs (which were already changed by as much as 66% in the middle of the current edition) will not change in 5th...sounds legit.
No. The costs might not stay the same. But the design goal is to be "possible, but only through extended play."
QUOTE
We didn’t want to make it easy to get there, though—the Karma costs of getting that final level are very high, because we wanted it to be clear that getting a character to that level was a sign of real commitment and dedication.
I'm not saying "it will take 500 karma to have a skill of 12" but that "players will be spending karma on other things, and won't have a skill of 12 until 500 karma total." Sure, if you rush it, you'll have it at like 60-80 karma. But you also didn't do other things.
Falconer
Feb 3 2013, 07:56 PM
On the decks things... no it's not all that much different.
In prior editions practically every runner had a 'personal secretary'. Which was nothing more than a smartphone! It'd make cell phone calls, texts, run simple programs to help you organize. But hacking required decks (which lets face it, didn't need keyboards... it could be a small box with a few plugs and would work just as well).
SR4 just got rid of the decks... a bad thing to do.
On the attributes and costs bit.
It will absolutely need addressed... so long as an attribute gives +1 dice to many different skills... plus gives other benefits as well on top of that. (example reaction helps piloting, AND is used in attribute only defense tests). At current karma costs attributes are far too cheap... the higher skill cap simply won't matter because most people won't make any use of it because attributes are more efficient uses of karma until maxed out generally. At current karma costs skills generally don't go past rank 1 + specialty for a while.
It makes no difference if skills can now go to 12... if it's so cost prohibitive that attributes are still the better deal to max out first. Most games rarely go past 50 or 100 karma. Let alone the 300-500 ones. Or even rarer 1000+.
Quite frankly I don't see this changing unless the way attributes and skills are augmented radically change. Skills have a limit in them based on 1.5X rank limitation. Attributes don't... so it's possible to go 1(6) agility with muscle toner and suprathyroid... then simply pay 10 karma to go to 2(7)... 3(8), 4(9).... saving tons of karma while still having a kickass stat. Unless attributes are similarly limited to 1.5x base value... that won't go away. Also skills don't have nearly the number of ways to augment them that are present for attributes... (improved adept power, and reflex recorders are pretty much it... and 1 point reflex records don't give much reason to go beyond rank 2 skill).
All4BigGuns
Feb 3 2013, 07:59 PM
Really, the comm-link thing wasn't a "bad thing to do", as it just opened up hacking as a potential for more people. While yes, anyone could dabble a bit in hacking (enough to do a few simple things or get themselves into trouble) the dedicated Hacker was still better at it to a large enough degree--at least until the upper levels of karma when a mundane needed to start branching out into other areas, at which time, sure they could get to be as good as the Hacker, but that was a long time off.
Umidori
Feb 3 2013, 08:16 PM
QUOTE (Falconer @ Feb 3 2013, 01:56 PM)

Attributes don't... so it's possible to go 1(6) agility with muscle toner and suprathyroid... then simply pay 10 karma to go to 2(7)... 3(8 ), 4(9).... saving tons of karma while still having a kickass stat.
This only works at chargen, where you're assumed to be buying the attribute first, then adding the 'ware.
In-game, the cost of increasing an attribute is based off of the total modified value, so while your natural value is only 1, the effects of the 'ware boost the cost of increasing it to the same as if you were increasing from 6 to 7 naturally.
~Umi
_Pax._
Feb 3 2013, 08:59 PM
QUOTE (Umidori @ Feb 3 2013, 03:16 PM)

This only works at chargen, where you're assumed to be buying the attribute first, then adding the 'ware.
In-game, the cost of increasing an attribute is based off of the total modified value, so while your natural value is only 1, the effects of the 'ware boost the cost of increasing it to the same as if you were increasing from 6 to 7 naturally.
~Umi
Um, say what?
As I understand it, Cyber doesn't work that way - it certainly never did in prior editions.
If I have Agility 5(7), and I want to raise it to 6(

... I pay the cost in karma of 5-->6, not the cost of (7)-->(

. Because
the cyber could be removed.
Umidori
Feb 3 2013, 09:02 PM
I might be misremembering, and I'm going to check my books right now, but it's definitely that way for the adept power equivalents.
QUOTE ("SR4a @ p. 196)
Improved Physical Attribute
Cost:.75 per level
With this power, you can raise a Physical attribute (Agility, Body, Reaction, or Strength). Each level increases the attribute by one. If you later want to increase the attribute using Karma (p. 269), the cost is based on the total attribute, including the magical improvements. Increasing Reaction with this power also affects Initiative.
Checking now for the rules spelling out the cyber equivalent, although it
should be the same, as you can lose both cyber and magic alike.
~Umi
Umidori
Feb 3 2013, 09:16 PM
Well, I'm hitting a wall. My initial indexing has failed to turn up any ruling anywhere that actually expressly states how you're supposed to handle improving augmented attributes. The corebook only talks about improving natural attributes, and then the adept power modifies that with it's own special rule, but I can't find anything about how to handle boosts from 'ware.
*frustrations*
~Umi
ChromeZephyr
Feb 3 2013, 09:21 PM
Apologies for bringing something up from a couple days ago, but I don't like leaving things directed at me unreplied to, just seems rude...
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Feb 1 2013, 05:25 PM)

@Chromezephyr
Weren't they saying they wanted to de-empathize edge?
Also Kalashnikov's are notoriously durable and reliable, how that reflects in accuracy... Heck if I know
I didn't see the bit about making Edge less than it is now, I was simply spitballing.
As for the Kalashnikov's accuracy, that's the drawback for that legendary reliability. It's built to far less exacting specifications than the assault rifles made by Colt or HK, so it can survive being buried in mud for a week, as well as being cleaned (or not cleaned, more than likely) by a peasant conscript and still function. It's still capable of hitting targets at a good distance, but compared to the precisely machined parts and fit of the AR-15/M-16 or G36 it's definitely less accurate. It's not hard to find photos of the groups that a decent shooter firing both types of guns will make, and the difference is noticeable.
Umidori
Feb 3 2013, 09:21 PM
And now my google-fu is turning up a lot of things that, while not definitely confirming anything, do seem to suggest that the accepted norm is to pay karma based on the base attribute, and that the adept power is just needlessly gimped for no apparant reason. Awesome?
One more thing to add to the SR5 wishlist, I guess... "Please, sir, I want some more."
~Umi
Falconer
Feb 3 2013, 09:22 PM
The rules for cyber/bio enhancements are the costs to raise are based on the natural attribute.
Page 270... improving attributes...
"The cost of raising the NATURAL attribute rating is the new rating x5."
2 paragraphs later..
"Raising the natural attribute may raise the augmented attribute value up to the augmented attribute maximums."
p68... Attribute Ratings... "Care must be made to distinguish between natural, undmodified attribute ratings, and those augmented by cyberware, biowre, adept powers, and magic."
The rules clearly distinguish between augmented value and natural value of the attribute for purposes of improvement. And also for purposes of chargen... for example cerebral boosters don't get you freebie knowledge skills in chargen, only the natural attribute does.
Improved physical attribute adept power is an EXCEPTION to the rule. (and one of the reasons I don't like the power outside of flavor, and vastly prefer attribute boost instead). The reason it spells it out under the power is because it's a specific rule creating an exception to the default rules on page 269 or so.
Umidori
Feb 3 2013, 09:39 PM
Yes, thank you, I picked up on that already.

So yeah. Pure adepts without 'ware? Hilariously not worth it.
Give up a point of magic and 6 BP worth of nuyen for Muscle Augmentation and Muscle Toner at Rating 2, get +2 Strength and +2 Agility, and still have 0.2 Essence left over for something else. That's equal to anywhere from
3 to 6 power points (it used to be 4 to 8 points before errata!) worth of Improved Physical Attribute, depending on if you're going past your natural maximum.
And you don't have to pay premium karma costs to improve those attributes later on.
Seriously, you guys. What the flaming fuck.
~Umi
Falconer
Feb 3 2013, 09:51 PM
Yeah you ninja'd my post... started typing after and hit add reply only to see a bunch more posts.
But I disagree with you on those particular augmentations... while nice... they are very essence heavy for an adept to get all of them (especially up to rating 4 in both). Unless you're going down the biocompatibility/alpha grade path..
But that's one of the things about the setting. There are very few characters which can't do well with a point or two of ware.... the question is are you willing to do it or not? If you want to be an absolutely pure adept... then that's a price you pay.
But in this case. I still prefer the attribute boost powers. 0.25PP... roll the dice and I can easily add 1-3 to the attribute when I need it with just a simple action. Attribute boost also pointedly does not work with any augmentation except improved physical attribute.
Also as the game progresses and magic gets higher they get better and better, especially if you're a mystic adept with a power focus.
I believe people even give the increase reflexes power short shrift... yes 1.5... is a bit expensive but you get the attribute increase and the extra pass... 2.5 is easy to improve for the next step. But unlike someone with ware... you don't have to have the old one ripped out and buy the new higher grade to replace it. You simply add a little more magic.
Personally I think the way to help out adepts is to take that advanced metamagic which comes after adept centering a step farther to make it more usable... sorry forget it's name. The one which allows to supercharge abilities up to higher levels than you have them, but then you take drain equal to your magic or magic x2... forget which. I think it needs to have it's drain scaled down so instead of adding a ton of PP... you can add like 1 or 2 PP for a short burn... and lower drain.
Umidori
Feb 3 2013, 10:43 PM
The problem is that 'ware is supposed to have a cost. You lose Essence, and by extension, magic. This is supposed to be a BAD thing for the Awakened.
But it isn't. It's actually BETTER to get a little bit of 'ware to go with your powers. It's so much more efficient, there's no reason not to, mechanically speaking. And that's the opposite of what it's supposed to be. Suddenly 'ware doesn't have a cost, it's a straight up bonus over staying purely magical.
Now sure, 'ware has limits. But if you've got a decent Strength or Agility to start with, that limit easily takes you up to your augmented maximum for most characters. Start with 4 Agility and Muscle Toner Rating 2 for an augmented 6 Agility. Later on, sacrifice a second point of magic to upgrade to the maximum Rating 4, taking you to 8 Agility. For anyone other than an Elf, that's 1 point less than the augmented maximum. And if you really want that final ninth point, all you have to do is pay to increase your natural Agility from 4 to 5, or 25 karma.
Compare that to an adept. Same 4 Agility at start, and equivalent Increased Agility 2, but costing a much greater amount of BP for being an adept (which also eats into your total positive qualities), and paying for the magic points you need to fuel your powers. Later, to upgrade to Increased Agility 4, you need to increase your magic, so that adds substantial karma costs. And since most adepts start at or near their maximum magic, you may even need to initiate once or twice first, costing even more karma. Oh, and since the power point cost is doubled for every point beyond your natural maximum, you actually need double the karma to buy double the extra magic and initiations than what you would otherwise! So a quick back of the envelope tally gives us anywhere from 45 to 100+ karma (plus time and costs to Initiate) to upgrade your adept power by two ranks.
But now you're at 8 Agility. Pretty respectable, yeah? What's that? You want to push it to 9? Well either spend karma to initiate again and increase your magic again such that you can pay the 1.5 power points for that final point of agility... or! You can pay 45 karma, nearly twice what the 'ware user pays for the exact same effect.
Oh, and you mentioned how as a game progresses, magic gets better and better. Well as a game progresses, a character also makes more and more money. The pure adept has to pay for all these bonuses purely with their karma, but the 'ware user can use nuyen instead, saving their precious and limited karma supply for other improvements. The former has to spend massive amounts of karma to improve their agility to the augmented max, while the latter can achieve the same effect with a mere dip in nuyen, putting his karma elsewhere, such as into mental attributes. Or if they're a 'ware using adept, they can spend the karma on entirely different powers, saving quite a bit of karma in doing so.
~Umi
_Pax._
Feb 3 2013, 11:15 PM
QUOTE (Umidori @ Feb 3 2013, 04:21 PM)

Seriously, you guys. What the flaming fuck.
Indeed.
That is why one of my houserules was and is, to change the Adept power to be in line with Augments. And always cost 0.5PP/+1, too. I've even considered dropping that even further, though I'd have to look at tweaking Attribute Boost as well, if I did.
QUOTE (Falconer @ Feb 3 2013, 04:51 PM)

I believe people even give the increase reflexes power short shrift... yes 1.5... is a bit expensive but you get the attribute increase and the extra pass... 2.5 is easy to improve for the next step. But unlike someone with ware... you don't have to have the old one ripped out and buy the new higher grade to replace it. You simply add a little more magic.
Increased Reflexes is a fair and reasonably-priced power, I agree. Roughly comparable to Wires. (Which it didn't used to be, in older editions.)
Glyph
Feb 4 2013, 01:15 AM
When they did up adepts, they tried to make them better at some things than augmented characters (like skill boosts), and worse at some things than augmented characters (like initiative and Attribute boosts). It worked in SR3 - street samurai were the super-fast dudes with overall toughness and versatility, while adepts were more specialized sharpshooters, ninjas, and martial arts masters.
In SR4, though, the rules changes messed this up. Extra initiative passes became more important, and Attribute increases added to the dice pool. Plus, bioware was cheap enough, Essence-wise, that adepts could get a point or two of it to shore up their weak areas (the aforementioned initiative and Attribute boosts), while spending their remaining power points on things like critical strike and improved ability. In addition to cost-effectiveness, the other benefit to augmented adepts is that often, technology and adept powers stack. You can get an attention coprocessor and enhanced perception. You can get tailored pheromones and kinesics.
The power cost changes in SR4A made unaugmented adepts slightly more viable, as did adept Ways, but augmented adepts skill have an edge over their "pure" brethren. This is fine if you like a game where even awakened characters are tempted by the allure of quick, easy boosts from augmentation. Otherwise, your only recourse is house rules - either make the offending powers cheap enough so that they have parity with bioware, or make the consequences of getting augmentations more severe for an awakened character. And in either case, you might also want to rule that certain tech/adept power combos don't work.
The big question is, what will SR4A do to change all of this? Personally, I hope they use the carrot more than the stick, but making a few more adept powers incompatible with augmentations that do the same thing might be a good idea.
All4BigGuns
Feb 4 2013, 01:22 AM
The problem is that the people who complain about Improved Reflexes are always comparing it's Power Point cost to the Synaptic Booster rather than the two cyber equivalents which the cost was obviously--at least obvious to me--based off of, and they ignore the fact that they're spending a lot more points for the Resources to get the Synaptic Booster than they're saving by getting it.
A good way to bridge that gap would be to forbid Adepts with implants from taking a Way (other than Burnout Way).
Glyph
Feb 4 2013, 01:28 AM
If, and only if, Ways are included in the basic SR5 rules (which they should be, considering how drastically they change the power levels for adepts). Oh, and only if they are upgraded from optional rules to default rules.
_Pax._
Feb 4 2013, 01:50 AM
QUOTE (All4BigGuns @ Feb 3 2013, 08:22 PM)

A good way to bridge that gap would be to forbid Adepts with implants from taking a Way (other than Burnout Way).
/facepalm
Not this again. Putting a different-color dress on it, doesn't change how useful or appropriate the idea is ...
Falconer
Feb 4 2013, 05:08 AM
All4Big... did you even read way of the adept?!
Any adept who loses too much essence is kicked out of their way and is put on the way/path of the burnout.
Glyph:
I agree very heavily with your post... except this.
Extra passes were still very important in prior editions. They were just less predictable than they are now... because the sam didn't know if we was going to roll 2 or 4 sometimes. The thing which kept them in check was that combat pool had to be split between all passes.. instead of the attribute combat pool adding to every single skill check.
SR4's big monkey wrench was that attributes got added to everything and skills pretty much stopped mattering for most checks since you had so many other ways to get dice for the skill check (attributes & equipment & specializations).
All4BigGuns
Feb 4 2013, 06:35 AM
QUOTE (Falconer @ Feb 3 2013, 11:08 PM)

All4Big... did you even read way of the adept?!
Any adept who loses too much essence is kicked out of their way and is put on the way/path of the burnout.
Dude, it's possible to miss something. It happens.
NeoJudas
Feb 4 2013, 08:29 AM
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Feb 2 2013, 03:28 PM)

Not really. I mean, by the time a mundane actually hits the cap, the game would have to be like 500 Karma. Sure the mage still has places he can go, but the game has been going on for so long that it's an anomaly.
... Then the game is an anomaly.... Sorry, to some of us, that means the group has begun to really mature. But, Mundanes have always needed some more exertion to keep up with the higher end paras. That's always been a flailing of the game mechanics, regardless of the version.
NeoJudas
Feb 4 2013, 08:33 AM
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Feb 3 2013, 01:36 AM)

Body snatching AI and mindhacks... Weren't we done with shedim?
Shedim, shmedim.... I've always waited for the psychotropics to fight back. I admit in our home games, the TMs are righteous, but when it was discovered that the corporations and the mages could still out resource a single TM in the end, then even they backed off some.
QUOTE (Falconer @ Feb 4 2013, 12:08 AM)

All4Big... did you even read way of the adept?!
You're out of line here, especially as you are wrong here:
QUOTE
Any adept who loses too much essence is kicked out of their way and is put on the way/path of the burnout.
There's nothing in the rules of the Way of the Adept about kicking anyone out of their way and that the Path of the Burnout is only eligible, not required, for anyone with 2.0 or more of Essence lost to augmentation (Pg 13, Way of the Adept).
As I like mixing my chocolate and peanut butter, so I really don't have a problem with Adepts (smartly) augmenting via cyber/bio and keeping their way, and as I have found adepts are a somewhat "weak" in general (I understand in their specific niches some min/max character can throw 40+ dice to do some specific thing, but I'm talking more in my general in-play experience).
I'm personally not all that convinced that there is a "gap" that needs to be addressed, either in 5th or as a houserule for 4th. Somethings cyber's good at, something's magic is good at, and I like those differences. That being said, others have different tastes, and that's cool. But being a an aggressive hypocrite? That's not cool.
Glyph
Feb 4 2013, 11:35 AM
QUOTE (Falconer @ Feb 3 2013, 09:08 PM)

Glyph:
I agree very heavily with your post... except this.
Extra passes were still very important in prior editions. They were just less predictable than they are now... because the sam didn't know if we was going to roll 2 or 4 sometimes. The thing which kept them in check was that combat pool had to be split between all passes.. instead of the attribute combat pool adding to every single skill check.
I should have been more specific. Initiative passes became more important
for melee in SR4, when melee combat stopped being an opposed dice contest where the defender could damage the attacker, and when the option of full defense as an interrupt action was added. In SR4, if you take two otherwise identical fighters, and one has 1 IP while the other has 3 IP, the one with more IP will be the odds-on favorite. He will be able to use full defense every round, and still have twice as many opportunities to do damage. In SR3, an adept with improved ability: 6 in a combat skill was dominant (since he could damage an attacker whether attacking or defending), but in SR4, that adept would need extra initiative passes to stay competitive.
On the other hand, there is far more parity among initiative boosters. Before, an adept, or a mage with increase reflexes level 3, really couldn't keep up with a speed sammie when it came to initiative scores/number of actions.
Draco18s
Feb 4 2013, 01:54 PM
QUOTE (NeoJudas @ Feb 4 2013, 03:29 AM)

... Then the game is an anomaly.... Sorry, to some of us, that means the group has begun to really mature. But, Mundanes have always needed some more exertion to keep up with the higher end paras. That's always been a flailing of the game mechanics, regardless of the version.
There is nothing wrong with 500 karma games. I'm just saying that
most groups don't last that long.
We also don't know that Mages will remain uncapped.
Stahlseele
Feb 4 2013, 02:23 PM
Skill can't be higher than twice the associated attribute and magic is an attribute like every other attribute too, meaning you can have a maximum of 6(9) magic, initiation allows usage of specific abilities such as using a power focus which acts like cyber/bio for Magic. No initiation, you can't bind the power focus, you can't get your magic attribute higher. Only way to raise magic attribute is a power focus, not karma rising anymore.
power-focus costs new magic attribute(base+focus)x3 karma to bind and new magic attribute(base+focus)x3000
(these numbers may need looking at)
[optional]
you start with magic attribute of 6 again, automagically, but if your base is reduced so is your maximum. so if you go down to 2 magic, your maximum magic using a power-focus is now 3
this will keep both power and dice pool size a bit more in check i think.
of course, if you hard max your elf to 10(15) attribute you can raise skill to 30 for huge dicepool again, but otherwise not.
Warlordtheft
Feb 4 2013, 02:33 PM
QUOTE (Sengir @ Feb 1 2013, 06:40 PM)

- Higher skill limits: All for it, provided hitting the cap at chargen is (near) impossible. It makes attributes less important, gives characters room to improve, and also allows for better fluff associated with skill levels
- Accuracy stat: I can understand the reasoning, a crack shot still needs a decent rifle. But it's yet another stat added to weapons, and breaks up the beautiful simplicity of "skill + attribute +- modifiers". Besides, crack shots with prehistoric rifles are certainly not such a widespread problem that it warrants a whole new mechanic.
- Attributes in the matrix: Many wanted it, I'm still not one of them. If metasploit has not been updated in a year you can't hack, and even the best reflexes will help you if [random FPS] lags badly on your rig.
If you have a 12 skill + 6 Attribute, that's 18 dice. Meaning that on average 6 hits. So those with lower skills and attributes with gear levels of 6 should be good to go.
Cain
Feb 4 2013, 03:00 PM
I'm still not sure about accuracy. Rolling bucketfuls of dice can be fun under the right circumstances, but stealing the ability to roll a huge success seems to take the fun out of it.
Umidori
Feb 4 2013, 05:48 PM
Except that it seems overwhelmingly likely that they're going to make accuracy scale well enough that, with the right gear, you can have enough accuracy to still make use of those buckets of dice?
I mean, sure, it's kinda funny to drop 20+ dice and get 15 net hits, splattering a troll's brainpan across the wall using nothing more than a tiny little derringer, but it kinda forces you to suspend your disbelief a little. All accuracy is going to do is ensure that you can't use a piece of junk weapon or tool to pull off a godlike success. So if you want to reduce your opponents to a fine crimson mist with your overwhelming dice pools, hey, that's fine, you'll just need to shell out some nuyen for higher quality gear to make it possible.
~Umi
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Feb 4 2013, 05:53 PM
QUOTE (Umidori @ Feb 4 2013, 10:48 AM)

I mean, sure, it's kinda funny to drop 20+ dice and get 15 net hits, splattering a troll's brainpan across the wall using nothing more than a tiny little derringer, but it kinda forces you to suspend your disbelief a little. All accuracy is going to do is ensure that you can't use a piece of junk weapon or tool to pull off a godlike success. So if you want to reduce your opponents to a fine crimson mist with your overwhelming dice pools, hey, that's fine, you'll just need to shell out some nuyen for higher quality gear to make it possible.
~Umi
Why? People die all the time to nothing, peasly weapons. No suspension of disbelief at all.
Umidori
Feb 4 2013, 06:00 PM
People die, yes. Typically from shock, bleeding out, organ failure, et cetera.
They don't have their heads explode into quivering chunks of man meat by being struck with a a bullet the size of a frozen pea, however.

~Umi
All4BigGuns
Feb 4 2013, 06:06 PM
QUOTE (Umidori @ Feb 4 2013, 12:00 PM)

People die, yes. Typically from shock, bleeding out, organ failure, et cetera.
They don't have their heads explode into quivering chunks of man meat by being struck with a a bullet the size of a frozen pea, however.

~Umi
That one may not "splodey" their head, but it may very well practically turn their brains into scrambled eggs.
Umidori
Feb 4 2013, 06:10 PM
Well with 15 net hits, I dare say it would!

That said, if your gun is so inaccurate that you can only hope to barely graze them, then you're skill is worthless. It's all up to luck at that point. (Which makes me curious if you could spend Edge to temporarily boost accuracy?)
~Umi
Cain
Feb 4 2013, 06:23 PM
QUOTE (Umidori @ Feb 4 2013, 09:48 AM)

Except that it seems overwhelmingly likely that they're going to make accuracy scale well enough that, with the right gear, you can have enough accuracy to still make use of those buckets of dice?
It's a very fine line to walk. If Accuracy is, on average, high enough that it doesn't matter and use all those dice, then it won't work as a balancing mechanism. If it's not, if it's too low, then it'll balance the game but make things less fun if you prefer cinematic action. It's a tradeoff, and I can't see that any one point will work for everyone.
I don't see that it's "overwhelmingly likely" that they'll do anything with it so far. All we have to go on is the one blog post, no specifics. It's too soon to say rather or not they'll pull it off.
All4BigGuns
Feb 4 2013, 06:24 PM
QUOTE (Umidori @ Feb 4 2013, 12:10 PM)

Well with 15 net hits, I dare say it would!

That said, if your gun is so inaccurate that you can only hope to barely graze them, then you're skill is worthless. It's all up to luck at that point. (Which makes me curious if you could spend Edge to temporarily boost accuracy?)
~Umi
While for the most part, I don't mind the new Accuracy stat on weapons, I do have to say that while the accuracy of the gun does play a role, a skilled marksman can compensate for an inaccurate weapon with their skill.
Epicedion
Feb 4 2013, 06:36 PM
QUOTE (Cain @ Feb 4 2013, 10:00 AM)

I'm still not sure about accuracy. Rolling bucketfuls of dice can be fun under the right circumstances, but stealing the ability to roll a huge success seems to take the fun out of it.
I'm with you on this. I'm generally opposed to success limits because
for the most part overwhelming numbers of successes are strictly outliers in normal play, and so limits are pretty much just a mechanism to say "hey, wow, you did great and all, but no" for the odd times that you actually roll in excess of the limit. Note that there's no reciprocal mechanism to ensure minor levels of success if you roll poorly, so it's not even really fair from a gameplay perspective.
The way Accuracy is talked about at as a limit doesn't even do anything to model actual weapon accuracy -- a success limit
strictly acts as a potential damage cap, which is to say that a high Accuracy weapon with moderate damage could potentially do more actual damage than a low Accuracy weapon with high damage. Actual weapon accuracy would be better modeled as decreased or increased difficulty (either by threshold or die pool mod in SR4 terms), which is to say that scoring damaging hits is
less likely but possible if you're really good and/or lucky.
I don't buy it. I think it's an offshoot of the desire to take the old SR2-3 system and cram it into a more simplistic resolution model -- and to explain, it has to do with the Matrix system. You had Dice Pool (skill+hacking pool), Program Rating (difficulty modifier), Difficulty (ACIFS), and Degree of Success (number of successes). In SR4 you get Dice Pool (skill+program rating), Difficulty (opposed system roll or set threshold), and Degree of Success (number of hits/net hits).
To make this conform to the standard Attr+Skill roll, they
have to give Program Rating a real function, but with the removal of scaling difficulty, there's not really much Program Rating can alter. It can't subtract from the Threshold or add to the Degree of Success (ie, automatic hits -- and well, it really could, but that would be a further departure from meatspace and magic tests), and Attr+Skill+Program would make the dice pools big (again, further departure), so the last thing is making it a limiting factor.
While I'd like to see Program Rating go away (perhaps simply have programs in the way that magicians have spells -- they have them or they don't, everything else managed by the various cyberdeck stats -- I'm not exactly thrilled at hit limits being applied to everything across the board.
EDIT: I was going to go in and fix my parenthesis/dash pairings, but eff it.
StealthSigma
Feb 4 2013, 06:45 PM
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Feb 4 2013, 02:36 PM)

The way Accuracy is talked about at as a limit doesn't even do anything to model actual weapon accuracy -- a success limit strictly acts as a potential damage cap, which is to say that a high Accuracy weapon with moderate damage could potentially do more actual damage than a low Accuracy weapon with high damage. Actual weapon accuracy would be better modeled as decreased or increased difficulty (either by threshold or die pool mod in SR4 terms), which is to say that scoring damaging hits is less likely but possible if you're really good and/or lucky.
Accuracy vs precision. Accuracy is the ability to hit a target. Precision is how close together multiple samples hit. A high accuracy low precision weapon would be a shotgun (you're probably going to hit with
some of the shot). A high accuracy high precision weapon would be a sniper rifle. It's a poorly named stat.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please
click here.