So, aside from questions about the breast fairy, how do you folks like the direction /dev/ has been taking in the last, hm, year or so?

I like the direction she's taken her tutelage under Kane and Fastjack it seems to have matured her. She doesn't grate on me as badly, there is a personality other than teeny bopper there now. She's still young and prone to taking chances, but it feels like she belongs on Jackpoint now.

I like her. She's got the hacking chops if she's beating Glitch and others to the punch, which has happened a number of times now. Instances of her giving out info and someone else on jackpoint being all 'That was you!?' are kinda cool.

She does seem to be coming into her own a bit more out side of just the matrix. Which is nice. I'm unsure how much actual 'tutalage' she's getting from Kane. I mean do you really see him taking time to give her lessons? And if so, how often can she get away from her corp parents and school to take them? She did track him down so she does travel and what not, but I don't see it like months long lessons. I'm thinking more hit or miss, a weekend here... a weekend there, where she tells her parent's she's staying at a friends house and going out to train and what not.

I do like her as a character, and I'd like to have a write up on her, and an image to put a face on her.

So far as best we know she's a tiny elf girl with cybereyes. I keep picturing Veronica Mars. For some reason I picture Dev with Dark hair though. So.. Veronica Mars as a Brunette.

There was a time when she told Kane to back off a bit because her parents were beginning to get suspicious or something along those lines. So they do spend quite some time together.

I missed that one. Where abouts would it be? (( Just curious. Not doubting you. ))

I can't seem to find it, it was sometime after she tracked him down in Street Legends Supplemental.

That's not a real thing... is it? Have you Canadians been holding back?!?

Kane was a bit over the top, but fleshing her out made her, to me, a more interesting and likeable character. Especially the bits in Safehouses, SimDreams and Storm Front made me warm up to her (so she's the replacement for the guy I watched Athack kill). Te Kane bit was nice too, though a bit pink. But at least a rather cool kind of pink.

One of these days Dev is going to geek a guy. I just hope it's awesome and not a tears pouring down her face sort of event. I know she's young and what not but these are shadowrunners. Even the good guys have to kill now and then.

Unless you're a two-legged monster, the first kill can be quite a difficult thing to experience.

Or, so I've been informed.

"Can be" yeah, but again these are Shadowrunners. A very very select very very small percentage of the population. They break the law of both country and corps as a matter of course. They live and die by the gun and by the Deck.

I'm not saying they're all psychotics, but they're not the sort to cry into their drinks night after night for the people they've had to shoot in the course of their shadowrunning lives.

For Dev, avoiding the 'Crying little girl' Aspect needs to be addressed more so than on others. If she freaks out and starts sobbing after her first kill, it will destroy her 'gains' on Jackpoint and her cred and 'reason' to be there.

In my view the way to get around this turn of events and turning her into a crying softy, would be to make her first be something 'good'. I.E. taking down someone evil or someone doing an evil thing. She could be on a run that goes wrong, something big and nasty is about to kill a friend. Or she comes on a rape in progress and shoots the rapist... She gets targeted by one of the serial killers and has to kill him. etc. It can still be emotional for her with out making her 'The crying baby elf girl'.

"Difficult" and even "emotional" is fine. But with one that is 'barely' accepted by many fans (( And not accepted by some)) As being too young and a stupid kid. You gotta take very special care not to make it worse. If she 'goes on a shadowrun' and falls to pieces after having to shoot someone, it'd ruin the character.

Ruin her... Or make her.

Depending on how it's done.

Exactly. That's my point. It'll be one or the other. Very likely nothing in between. So it has to be done right. Other wise, years of build up will result in a broken NPC that is going to be almost universally lothed.

Careful, that way lies the new Lara Croft.

There are a few Jackpointers who aren't exactly murderhoboes. The Deckers, for instance, are pretty bloodless (Well, with some exceptions. PUCK.), while a few of the others are fairly unbloody.

Not everybody can pull a trigger on someone. You just have to manage those assets more carefully.

...at the same time though, pretty sure the deckers of JackPoint wouldn't hesitate to bring down the Black Hammer on some poor spider...

Well there's a difference between a 'murderhobo' and "Being a Shadowrunner". Sooner or later a Shadowrunner is going to have to kill. And chances are it's going to be far far sooner, than later. Some go out of their way to avoid it, but I doubt any with careers longer than a few months to a year can retire with unbloodied hands. Sooner or later something happens on a run and you have to shoot your way out. The Decker that cowers in the corner screaming isn't brought on the next run. You can try your best to avoid it (( I mean I know I'd TRY not to kill people. Again. Not saying they're psychotics)) but the world is a dark place and if you're breaking into governmental or Corp (Same difference)) Places and pulling illegal activity, sooner or later you're going to be in a fight for your life. When you are, it's you or them. And if you're a 'successful' Shadowrunner. I.E. still breathing... it means it was them.

I'm not saying Dev needs to turn into Hard Exit, or Picador. But if she continues to be A Shadowrunner, sooner or later she'll be forced to kill to defend herself and others. If she does it and totally breaks down "Like a kid" The NPC will be hated for "Not deserving" to be on Jackpoint with the Real runners. She'll be seen as a failure.

Again she doesn't have to shoot old ladys or baby's between the eyes and lick the barrel of the gun while giggling like a loon. But -when- the time comes and she has to kill, I personally hope she 'Lives up' to the trust that FastJack and others have put into her to 'deserve' to be there, and not punk out.

This is significant due to some of the things cited above. She IS getting out of her protective corp life and going out into the field at least a little. I mean she tracked Kane down and actually hired on a runner team to back her up as she walked into a bar in the CAS (( If memory serves at 5 am)) And she's from North Eastern UCAS. Putting a gun to the guy's head.

So yeah... when she's forced to pull the trigger, or draw the blade. I hope the char isn't scrapped and thrown away. I like her.

As someone who only got into Shadowrun like, a year ago, and only started reading the non-crunch parts of books 6 months ago, I think /dev/grrl is awesome. She reads like new blood, and from what I have read has done so without becoming obnoxious. She is not a complete know it all brat, and does seem to hold some respect for those who came before her. Overall she is in a nice place.
While I disagree with her having to need to kill someone, if it does happen, it does need to be handled properly. There is no reason it shouldn't affect her or make her upset, but having her completely break down or be unable to take a shot, I think would be detrimental to her character.

Netcat on Clockwork, for one example (yes, I know Clockwork isn't exactly a spider). I also think she wouldn't hesitate to shoot to kill him, either.

Learning from a ruthless, soulless dude like Kane will certainly help her. Not. Seriously, when has Kane become one of the cool guys? I mean, the same guy who sold ship containers full of unwilling organ donators and is wanted as war criminal iirc?

Eh, even the new Lara isn't particularly weepy about her first kill, a little shaken perhaps.

Half a day later she's murdering folks by the dozens.


-k

They apparently didn't want to go with a "Spec Ops: The Line" version of Lara who suffers from crippling PTSD.

Not having read all the relevant documents, has she ever melted someone's brain on the Matrix? Because that would be a good way to go about a first kill, I would think. And afterwords while she's giving an after-action report, have someone go "...and you know that that person's dead now, right? Like, 'blood pouring out of the nose and brains leaking out of ears' dead." Hell, maybe even a stolen vid feed from the corp security cams of the opposition twitching and pissing themselves before sagging to the floor. Just a thought.

Someone remind me why we're so eager to make /dev a killer. I think I missed it somewhere. (I do not subscribe to the theory that says, "All shadowrunners are killers and there's no way to avoid it." But I'm weird like that, I guess.)

Here's the kick-off to this discussion:

As to why? All I'll say is: Because reasons. I'd have more to say, but that's against ToS and not for this Forum, I think.

Maybe I'm parsing this too finely, but I don't think people want her to be a killer (someone who kills people routinely), but are curious about what happens if/when she is required to actually geek someone. What is the aftermath, and what direction does she go afterwards? I (and others, judging by the thread responses so far) expect that if you're a shadowrunner you're going to have to kill someone at some point in your career.

I'd say you run a bigger risk of being forced into a situation where you're likely to kill someone as a shadowrunner.
But it's not like it's an inevitable event.
Sometimes a thief is just a thief.

You can always opt for non-lethal approaches.

The worry isn't feeling strong emotions after killing someone.

The worry is when you stop feeling any.





-k

Old Man Jones stopped feeling anything about 40 years ago...

A) "That man had a family!"

B) "And?"

A) ".....Get help, dude."

B) "Tried it. After the third shrink killed themselves the clinic told me to stay away."

Kane is a playing style for players, and is an older canon character. What makes him a "cool guy" is not what he does (which is horrendous!) but how he does it and not get caught (which is genius and seems completely opposite his online character.). /dev will hopefully learn the "how not to get caught" parts more than the "you can kill a man in a very painful way with a tea cup in fourteen different ways."

Also note that part of the Kane-Team training her is Kat, who we have next to no intel on, so she has a new parental-figure team that might balance her out nicely. Then again, Kat spent how long in an Azzie Prison? She could be worse than Kane. (And I type this as the rare person willing to write about Kat!)Actually, she's quite sad at her first kill, which is a deer. She's shocked by what she did to a human, but he was actively trying to kill her, and that changed her perception quite a bit.Not crippling, but very much apparent. There's also a line from her retired SAS father-figure asking her about killing, where she explains just how surprisingly easy it was. Frankly, it just proves she's her Father's Daughter.I don't think it's eager (which is why we have so many voices going, "NO! DON'T DO IT! We just started to LIKE her!!!") as much as it is "if it does happen." She is being trained by Kane after all, and the guy thinks "subtle" is "not burning my name in the walls with Thermite as I leave."

Heh, I remember the shadowtalk about him writing his name on an installation wall with a....minigun? HMG? AFB, can't remember exactly. Same shadowtalk mentioned him owning a racing team. I remember my teenage self going "How exactly do you remain a deniable asset at that point?"

Guess the answer is "Be than damned good at your job, and be willing to do horrible things most people get nightmares even contemplating."

Also: "Be willing to do the dirty work no one else wants to touch in exchange for lots of favors and even more money!"

They'll never officially state it, but I'm willing to bet a lot of politicos are happy to have Kane on their speed dial, even if they have to keep the officials away from him with other favors.

He's a carribean pirate. Tall tales are their game. Hell, the most notorious crew of the 50s had a reality show as they pirated!

Whatever happened to the Gingerbread Man? I miss him.

°oO(I'm guessing, Kane happened to him.)

Is that from Cyberpirates? I never got to read that one. And as for the tall tale, it wasn't Kane doing the shadowtalk. It was another 'runner ripping him a new one about his so-called "quest" to get Kat out of the Azzie prison. Though now that I think about it a little more, Kane mentioned the words on the wall, it was the other 'runner talking about the racing team.

Dammit, now I gotta look that up when I get home tonight. It was a fun little bit of shadowtalk.

edit:


LOL. I can so see that in a post.

>>Whatever happened to [soandso]
-Runner Bob

>>I did.
-Kane.

Kane and Gingerbread Man planned to have a free-for-all...

Kane showed up, Gingy didn't.

Don't seem to be a wise choice, but time will tell if and how it changes /dev/grrl



Isn't Kat featured in one of the latest fiction pieces? And used in Conspiray Theories by your Republican James Meiers as the guide to Washington, D.C. (or DeeeeeeeeeeeeeCeeeeeeeeeeeeee)?

I...Is there a reason you just called James Meiers a Republican?

I'm tired as hell and doped up on some sinus medication right now, but I feel like I must be missing something.

Got the impression that he favors their mindset (not saying that it is a bad thing and certainly not meant as an insult... apologies if it came across as one); his write-ups of Denver, Washington, D.C, and UCAS in general gave me that impression very much.

Yeah, James is a lot of things, but a Republican is not among them. Not to mention that the voice for the Washington FDC writeup was Kay St. Irregular (which I suppose is an easy enough mistake to make, given the similarity in Kat and Kay).

*shakes fists* Thanks for the corrections.

No problem.

Heh, no. No. He's very much not (campaigned, etc, for Democrats in the past). In fact, it's our politics that we disagree about the most, as buddies (I'm the one that leans more to the right on a few issues).

I was the one that "Started" It I guess, but as pointed out. It's -not-

"Yeah!!!! Lets make Dev Girl a rabid dog killer psycho!! YEAAAAH!!!!!"

it was "One of these days she's going to have to geek someone, and I hope they don't ruin the character when it happens. I hope it's cool. Instead of seeing a character that's grown up on Jackpoint and among shadowrunners, suddenly become a fluffy bunny hugging teen, crying her eyes out at what she's had to do"

You may not subscribe to the theory that states "All Shadowrunners are killers and there's no way to avoid it" but realistically, Shadowrunners are going to be in the position where they're going to -end up- killers, alot more than those that don't run the shadows. You can play nice all you want but by their very nature they're criminals. Even the lightest of shadowruns often breaks numerous laws. Often in multiple countries or extraterritorial zones. (( Going from a "Country" the UCAS to a Corp zone you're now basically an international criminal) and many runs end up with gunplay at some point along the line. Not all. But many. Guns are not statements of displeasure. They're meant to kill. That's their purpose. Even deckers, end up on site for many runs because corps are not utterly brain dead and they know that it's harder to get into stand alone systems. Sooner or later, yeah, even deckers are going to be in a firefight with Corpsec or the police.

Do they have a choice? Of course they do. They can surrender. (( Might get shot anyway)) but they don't --have-- to kill. That's why I pointed out 'Successful' Shadowrunners. If you get caught and thrown into corp jail or normal jail for 20 years, you might have not killed anyone but you're hardly a successful runner if you get caught and are 'out of the game'. That's if they don't just kill you out of hand for performing the shadowrun on what ever you're running against that week.

Can you play a total pacifist? Sure, but other people in your group are going to be the ones pulling the trigger. Where by you're guilty by association. The "Well... ----I---- didn't kill those 20 corpsec guards. the other 4 people in my team did. I was just there to hack' Is just a shield to make you feel better if you're part of the team that mowed them down. You even find it in our laws today. If someone dies during the commission of a felony in the US, everyone connected to that Felony is charged with the homicide. Be it manslaughter or murder. Go to rob a booze store with 3 of your friends. One of them shoots a guy. You all 4 get charged with the murder.

Can a Shadowrunner be idealistic? Sure. Can they try and minimize damage? Sure. Can their entire point be "Leave no trace. Let them never know you're there"? Sure that's the best kinda run. That's the aim of course.

Sadly both in the game and IRL things seldom happen that way. When the crap hits the fan, and you've got incoming weapons fire, you return fire, either 1) to escape, or 2) Just to save your own life. The other options are 3) Let um kill you, 4) Surrender and maybe get killed, or go to prison.

Dev is 'getting out in the world'. She's stepping out from behind the keys. She hired a group of runners and walked into a bar and put a gun to Kanes head. Sure, it's in good natured fun, to prove her rep (( Can you imagine Clockwork? he'd have collected the bounty.)) but still. She's 'grown up' with the runners. She's not the pacifistic type. If she keeps running the shadows, sooner or later a run will go bad, and it'll be

"Pull the trigger on that huge gun of hers, or.... surrender and go to jail or get killed" I don't see her as giving up.

Do I think she's a sociopath or psychotic? No. I'm sure she'll feel bad. I'm sure it'll 'change her' like taking a life changes anyone.

My original point is, basically, when that event comes to pass. When all the best planning in the world fails. When it's "Kill or be killed", as ----often---- happens running the shadows, and Dev pulls the trigger. I hope they don't have her react like an over emotional cry baby type lil girl. Because she's NOT that type person. She's a runner. At 17 years old she tracked down and put a gun to the Billion Dollar Man's head in a bar. She did what experienced and runners who have played the game for 20+ years couldn't do. The writers and company have put years into her as a maturing character, and if you take all that and throw it in the trash and have her, even as a young, but extremely skilled and growing experienced runner, 'break' because of the taking of a life. It'll be a waste.

As someone who likes the character. I hope that she wouldn't be wasted in that fashion.

There's very few situations where you need to kill someone, there's a lot more where it seems like the easy way out. I'm not saying that it's all a dance on roses, but it's not as binary as you make it out to be.
Granted the company she keeps it might not be a given that there is other options then putting caps in someones head.

If she ends up killing someone, I rather have it be premeditated...

I think I'm going to leave it at, "I think you're very wrong," and walk away before I go on another one of my rants about the moral compass and the darkening of the setting and all that. I think enough people are tired of that out of me right about now.

But before I go, I'm going to say that "criminal" != "killer." It doesn't have to happen that way. And even if she is a hardened shadowrunner, she's still a 17-year-old kid. IF it happens (not, as you seem to believe, when it happens), it's probably going to be devastating (at least if she still has a soul left after the shadows and her tutelage under Kane). I don't see how breaking down in tears at such a major event would be unwarranted. It's what she does afterward that would determine whether or not the incident was "a waste" or not.

And damned if I didn't start on the mini-rant anyway. Bye.

Darkening less so ... more ... numbing.

You have runs where there are few situations where you need to kill someone? Or do you mean normal people, non shadowrunners?

Last I checked shock weaponry and injection darts are both more discreet and less lethal then full-metal jackets.

Again, I gotta ask what kinda shadowruns you guys play. What are all those dozens and dozens of guns for? The books just on guns. Drones with guns. Giant cannons. Etc. do you guys just wave them around or is it kinda like the old GI Joe cartoon where the sky is fulla lasers but the worst that ever happens is a vehicle blows up or something, and noone ever really gets hurt? The books are flat out --full-- of tales from Shadowrunners killing people left right and center. Always have been. It doesn't focus on the slaughter too terribly much but to imply that it's not there is very strange. More so from someone that writes for them and such.

No "Criminal /= killer" Every time, but Shadowrunners aren't just shoplifters. Nor are they merely car thieves, or even burglars. (( Though a few specialize in that)) They're --Shadowrunners-- Not every run means the guns come out. I pointed out above that the 'best' run is when they don't even know you were there. That just rarely happens in game. If you always breach security, sneak in, sneak out. No violence, no battles ever, that's a very different game than is portrayed.

Shadowrunners by nature are breaking numbers of laws and they pack weapons, often military grade, to do so. Again, everyone's not shooting in the air then running up and punching someone in the jaw and leaving them dazed on the floor to run out and noone ever really gets hurt. Bullets flying back and forth, people get hurt, maimed and killed, that's at the very least and you hit every target you aim for and none of your bullets travel down range and hit things you're not aiming at. Bullets are not harsh language. They kill.

There is something to be said for a moral compass. There's groups that don't take assassinations. (( Though we have some that do)) That's fine. I'm pointing to the reality of the game/situation though. If you're "Extracting" Someone from an Aztechnology acrology and you get in a running battle with Corpsec, and you kill 20 people to get your run done.. you've still killed 20 people. Sure they're just 'mooks' and namless guards (to some) when you're playing the game, but you still shot and killed 20 people. If gangsters are protecting the warehouse you need to break into and perform a datasteal, and you kill the group of 5 to 10 of those, either gettting in, or getting out, you've still killed 5 to 10 people. Sure you didn't climb a lofty building top and snipe someone but you still killed.

I've played shadowrun for probably 15 to 18 years. I've had plenty of runs where noone died. I wouldn't call it the norm. Many of those where noone died, it wasn't for lack of lethal actions happening.
Do all shadowrunners have to kill merrily and with out remorse? No. Course not. But what kinda cake sort of runs are your groups all taking where this seems to just not come up? Most of my characters are more towards the 'good' side of the moral compass than 'bad'. The Ares Predator still comes out when Corp-sec starts shooting at my char though, and he or she will return fire.

You mention the Darkening of he Setting, how 'light' was the setting? By their nature, Shadowruns are highly illegal activities and more times than not people are shooting at each other or slicing one another up. It's pretty violent and dark at it's base. Violence is pretty much the norm. Heck, some of the fiction in one of the more recent books has a guy wacked out on sim chips thinking he's a sniper and shooting at someone on the street. BANG.. then some other guy shoots him dead and just walks off after a millimeter of a nod. "Just another day in 2052. Dirk told himself as he shook off the pain in his side and walked back to his doss. Not showing any weakness to the street monsters, of course …" Random chip head shoots him twice in the side. Stranger kills the guy, and it's just another day as he walks back to his house.

Again, I'm not saying Dev has to be a psycho, shooting babies and peeing on their bleeding corpses or anything, but if she's a shadowrunner, running the shadows for years, and when the situation comes where it's her life or the life of the guy trying to kill her, and she shoots and kills the guy/girl, I don't see it as being --devastating--. She's a shadowrunner. Not someone in the knitting club. Emotional, sure. Dramatic? Sure. If it's going to be so horrible and --devastating-- to her, then who are we looking at running the shadows now, sneaking off and tracking down Pirates wanted by multiple governments and corps and putting guns to their head? Because that sort of person, the one that hacks into governmental/corp databases, and personal comlinks of politicians and corp exects.. and you know. Walks into a bar and puts a gun to the head of a guy who's worth a billion dollars in bounties... isn't the sort that's going to be -devastated- by having to kill in self defense or on a run.