You're presuming ALOT here Ravensmuse.
QUOTE (ravensmuse @ Mar 27 2013, 07:30 PM)
Let me start by apologizing: I'm the guy that started the shitfest. I saw Can's post this morning, tried to ignore it, and then read
this post on Tumblr. It kind of lead into a post on Tumblr, in which I made my feelings fly.
Which, let me quote: And you know what? Fuck it. I stand by my thoughts.
It's not cool to sexualize a teenager. Which is basically what you did with that first post there, Canray. Yes, it was intended as a joke, but even a joke can offend someone. And it offended me - little ol' me, who's a straight white, male thirty something, happily married to his equally straight wife, who has friends and family that range the complete alphabetical spectrum.
1) No. He said ASIDE from anything having to do with the breast fairy. As in, speaking of things OTHER than sexualizing the character.
What about it actually "Offended" you?
QUOTE (ravensmuse @ Mar 27 2013, 07:30 PM)
To the guy that said, "Hey! My wife laughed!": Cool. Now run that very same quote past someone that identifies MTF or FTM and see what they think. Or a gay person. Who someone who's had trauma in their childhood. See what they think about it.
Hate to break it to you, but you're not some great hope of alternate gender or sexual identities there. My wife is female, but she also finds females attractive. My best friend is a gay female. I showed her, after this thread started getting roudy and she laughed and complained the breast fairy didn't visit her ENOUGH. I have not at this point ran it by any transgender people, but that's because I'm chilling at home and don't have any one speed dial. I know one but he's at a hockey event right now. As for someone who's had trauma in childhood. yes. One of the two previously mentioned also falls into that catagory.
You're speaking for yourself but not for everyone. Of the "Well here, run it by these other people" I've got you covered on most and they were not only fine, but they laughed. Lighten up a bit.
QUOTE (ravensmuse @ Mar 27 2013, 07:30 PM)
Because as much as we gamers would like to pat ourselves on the back and tell ourselves that we're equal, that we're cool with everybody, that we welcome all - fuck no we don't. That's the little white lie at the end of the gamer rainbow. Not as a hobby, not as a tribe, and in large segments, not on an individual level.
We exist in a hobby that frequently marginalizes people that are not us - male, white, straight, thirty something year old dudes that played roleplaying games in our basements or libraries or whatnot. We don't want people in.
That's well and good, but do you seriously think canray was some how trying to crack on women with that small statement??
Again. Speak for yourself man. The only people the people I play with marginalizes, are idiots or assholes. We don't care if you're male, female, both or neither, white, black or green. (( I prefer green)) I Role played with my 12 year old this weekend and tonight I'm Role playing with a 40 year old bisexual woman.
QUOTE (ravensmuse @ Mar 27 2013, 07:30 PM)
We want more people like us. Now be on the other side of that; be the person who doesn't fit into any of those categories. Be a girl and find some artwork that doesn't consist of your gender in something skimpy, looking for a male to save them (or be Sarah Conner from the Terminator). Be a gay person and find a homosexual signature character. Be trans and look for a book that doesn't condemn being intersexed, or looking for re-assignment surgery as "radical" or "too weird for my game". Be a rape victim browsing a gaming message board and trying not to get freaked out when you read something about "Bubba the Love Troll" or "raping those dudes." Now tell yourself, "yup, we're welcoming."
Much of that you can find. I'm right there with you on lil idiots using 'rape' in the fashion you're mentioning but still. It's not quite the world you're putting out there. Are there less homosexual signature characters? Yes, but they are a minority you know. Are there less transexual characters? Yes, but again, you're discussing a group that IRL is signifigantly smaller. Shadowrun has a character that has been both male and female. Plan 9 said not only has he done it, but others should try it. he had a blast.
We are welcoming. My group anyway. Most of the ones I've played with since I was 14 love new players. Perhaps the groups you've played with aren't. And for that... well that sucks man. But don't pain me with the asshole brush because you've met some. There's jerks all over the world.
QUOTE (ravensmuse @ Mar 27 2013, 07:30 PM)
(The examples I'm sure the bunch of you are just burning to give me are the exceptions that prove the rule, trust me. Exalted is very gay / trans friendly. Eclipse Phase too. Again: exceptions to the rule.)
I think you're mistaking low numbers or representation with some sort of hate. The fact is most people go though their day to day lives and never meet a transsexual. Some will go their entire lives with out meeting one. I have a friend that is. he's cool. No worries but I'm not going to claim I know tons. Noone really does. There's not that many out there, to have significant market share or even signifigant numbers TO be represented.
QUOTE (ravensmuse @ Mar 27 2013, 07:30 PM)
As it stands? I feel ashamed to even bring my wife - the very same person that ya'll are harping on right now - into a gaming store
You know why? She's meat. She's someone worthy of objectifying - of proving to that you're virile and strong and creative and smart, when all she wants is to spend ten dollars and get some dice for our game the next week. Her last real trip in, she got accosted by a dude who insisted on telling her all about how clever and smart he was, choking a dragon with a Decanter of Endless Water.
All I can say is, that's your issue man. My wife goes to gaming stores. My ex girlfriend did. Many of the people I play with are women. They all go to gaming stores.
LOL That's ---not--- a gender thing man. People hanging out in Gaming stores will do that to males, females or slow moving animals. Can women attract attention in game stores? Sure, so can guys. I can't tell you how many 100s of times I've had some dude start up with that sort of thing with me. And I'm not even attractive.
QUOTE (ravensmuse @ Mar 27 2013, 07:30 PM)
That is the heart of the issue I have with that post, this discussion, and to be honest? With Shadowrun in general lately. We're all - and I'm not counting myself out here, I have my own problems - into these imaginary worlds that we claim as "our own" that we're not willing to let people in.
Yes, it sucks you can't use language you'd like to use. Yes, it sucks that someone's going to call you out when you use ojbectifying material to discuss a game. But guess what? Grow up. Learn from it. Listen to what that person is saying, and see what message they're trying to give you.
When I can't even look at the "Images That Make You Think Shadowrun" thread on the official boards because every other picture is a half-naked or semi-naked girl straddling a gun that would make Cable (of the X-men) blush, there's a fskin' problem, okay?
What woman is going to want in on this hobby when that's what they're first presented with?
Who here isn't letting people in??
Conversely, don't look for insult where none is meant. I've worked with women's shelters, and abuse hotlines. My wife works with the salvation army as a youth councler and rec center manager. We donate time and money both. I've repeatedly helped rape victims.
I'm plenty sensitive to sexist comments and the like. Looking for a fight where none is being picked is just as bad as picking the fight on sexist grounds.
Maybe on THAT board with THOSE people. Are any of the people here one's posting such images? Or are we getting vented at, for other people's actions? Most of the people I play with aren't first presented with forums boards image threads. They're handed the book or see the books in stores.
QUOTE (ravensmuse @ Mar 27 2013, 07:30 PM)
When are we going to see half-naked guys wearing thongs making out with other dudes, or hell, Male Human / Male Troll love? It's a thing!
If we're really going to be "equal opportunity", then brace yourself guys, because you're going to see that, and so much more. It won't be something I'll be looking for, but someone else will, and that's the point of "fairness".
There's plenty of thong wearing dudes in Role playing. (Well Loin cloths)
I'm sure it is a thing, but how many other romantic sorts of interactions are you seeing in Shadowrun?
I for one, think that if it fits the story, the writers will include it. I don't think it's some how being excluded as a sort of bias. Of all the Runners that we've seen, I know of like three couples off the top of my head. One being Slamm-0! and Netcat, one being Kane and Kat, and the last being Ghostcrawler and his spirit mate.
Am I missing tons and tons of couples, that some how by their inclusion is some how excluding other pairings?
QUOTE (ravensmuse @ Mar 27 2013, 07:30 PM)
But of course, I'm making this shit up. The game is just full of positive role models for women, transfolk, gayfolk, abuse victims, etc, etc. I'm just being one lone guy screaming on the internet. Right? Because that's how you're going to justify this thread's existance.
There's lots of females in Shadowrun that are treated, as best I can tell, like the men, except in glaring cases, where it's in world stuff. Even those are few and far between. Noone tells Hard Exit to shut up and get back to the kitchen. Noone tells Picador that running a merc company is for men. There's at least the one transgender.
It's not that you're one guy screaming on the net, but it's a bit touching that you're attacking us, making up a defense for us, and then discounting the defense you've made up for us. lol
People are allowed to disagree with you with out being against what you're saying.
QUOTE (ravensmuse @ Mar 27 2013, 07:30 PM)
If this is my last post on Dumpshock, then cool - let this be, as Crimsondude once put it, me dropping the mike on the stage and walking off.
Well that'd be very dramatic. I can't speak for others but I hope you don't leave. The more the merrier. I also hope your wife doesn't leave.
Again I can disagree with both of your takes on this thread with out wanting you out. I just very simply think offense was taken where none was meant and now you're defending your wife (( an urge I very much understand)) and she's defensive because people didn't agree with her take on it.
Nothing more what so ever.