Last I checked they were alot less effective when the other side is USING heavy weaponry, and wearing armor.

For me: The kind where planning and care is a better choice over roaring guns.

As for the books: pretty much nothing, if you ask me, save as porn books for gun nuts maybe. I mean, some guns there are okay, but ... nothing to fawn about really. Most are actually rather crappy.

And again, I point out, that 'going in guns blazing' is very seldom the plan. (( Well Infrequently is that the plan. lol))

Still, what the plan 'starts off as', seldom ends up matching what actually happens. The old addage "No plan survives contact" is pretty true. All our groups plan and research, take care as best as they can. They still bring the guns for when something goes wrong. As it so often does. (( As that's part of the game)).

Do groups sometimes get in and out clean? SURE!! Does careful planning reduce the usage of guns and death? One can surely hope.

Still.... maybe it's just the groups I play with, but sooner or later the guns come out. And people die. It's pretty standard. Those that don't have the stomach for it, aren't good runners. Doesn't make you a psycho, but it's part of the job. These people (Shadowrunners) Aren't even military protecting their country or families from hostiles. They willingly choose the Shadowrunning life. Part of that life is "Corps or the Cops are going to try and inprision you at the very best. Kill you being the norm. Sometimes you have to shoot your way out. Regretable? Yes. Something you do your best not to have to do? Yes. Something that happens on a routine basis? Yes.

I've never had a group playing shadowrun where noone brought guns on their runs. Where everything goes exactly as planned and the runs are always perfect and you always get in and out clean and noone gets hurt. Those sorts of runs are few and far between and you tend to remember them because... of how few and far between they are, where everything goes right and there's no hostile contact at any pont along the way. "Wow!! Darius didn't shoot or head butt anyone on that run!" "I know! I was standing around with nothing to do. it was weird!" "Yeah we didn't even have to steal get away vehicles when ours was shot up!!"

Do runs like that happen? Yep. Maybe our GM's are stricter, or more inventive or something, but we very seldom get in, out, with what ever we're after, and never in the entire run does something not happen where the stuff hits the fan. My 'good guys' often have to kill. Even when it's unpleasent. They usually don't like it. (( I've played some 'bad guys' before too)) But it's part of the job. If you don't ever wanna have to hurt or kill someone, you need to --seriously-- reconsider being a shadowrunner.


A small aside: I actually agree on the 'gun porn'. I don't need that many guns myself. And I'm a gun guy IRL. Most of my people end up picking the same guns, because I like that gun in the game. I have the gun books, of course, but I don't 'want more guns'. Nor do I think we 'need' as many as we have. My point was that in the setting and from the writers and company, there's BUNCHES of guns out there and they are used.

"Shit hits the fan" isn't automatically a situation best solved with gunfire. In fact, in my group that tends to be punished as a solution more often than not.

A better question to me would be... why would she ever be in the position to need to kill someone herself? Just ask Uncle Kane instead...

lol Maybe Uncle Kane is off playing with the FMC again or being a Pirate?

Dev is still "The Decker" ( Yeah yeah hacker, whatever. It's Shadowrunners. They're Deckers to me. I'm with Bull). I see her soon to be going on Runs with teams and what not. Again I just don't see how MUCH/OFTEN that tutorage from Kane is taking place. Here and there, sure but not like long stretches.

Given the numerous charges most deckers face anyhow, I would think tacking murder on top of it wouldn't help them any. Even the Jackpointers tend to murder-shame certain runners who have... mutable morals. Personally, I just don't see it likely to happen outside of cybercombat with a techno. <edit> and in self defence at that.

How do we know she hasn't killed anyone already? I doubt Kane is a shoot at cans or bottle type teacher.

It's not that hard to conceptualize. "You're on a run, with your team. Corp-sec opens fire. options are "Give up and get killed, or go to corp jail for life" or "Shoot your way out." What do you do?"

Jackpointers tend to look down on flat out assassins. But people that end up trading bullets with corps, or are full out Mercenaries aren't looked down upon. Shooting/killing cops or Corps trying to stop you on a run is par for the course.

You plan your runs to --not-- have to use that option, but all those guns aren't just to brag about online. They're used in the game for the purpose they're built for. Killing people.

I doubt Dev would just go full assassin. She's not Nat Portman in the Professional. But if she's on a run and they're taking fire and bullets are thick in the air, yeah. I think she'll return fire. I think she'll shoot "Like uncle kane taught her too". I don't see her as just laying on the floor with her hands stretched out infront of her and waiting for cuffs.

I really hope she wouldn't.

While you have a point. 1) I don't see her training on "PEOPLE"... maybe seaguls off a ship (( Which is still not cool!)) but shooting people to train is a bit out there. and 2) I think if she HAD taken a life via violence (Not the Matrix) We'd have heard about it, or seen some indication. I think she or others would have mentioned it in some fashion. "I'm a kid but even I've killed a guy" or "People look down on Dev but she's killed on runs. She's not a joke" type thing somewhere.

PTSD takes time after the event to actually occur - so, she'll probably suffer from it, but it just hasn't happened yet.

As an aside, the way it's handled in the new game is, in my opinion, very well done. She freaks out about it, but picks up and keeps going because she has no other choice.

I had a character the relied upon Narcojet Capsule Rounds. Unfortunately, even with the Less-than-Lethal option, he still killed people with it. On Many more than one occasion. Sadly.

It's rather pathetic that this thread inevidably questions her ability to emotionally handle a first kill when this question would have never been brought to light for a male character.

Funny you should say that, since I'm working on a piece dealing with a male character's first kill, and how he handles it. Granted, his situation is exacerbated by several factors, but the question does come up occasionally. I'm not sure whether or not to resent the implications you're making, but it's been a rotten morning so I'll shrug it off.

Not to much to do with her gender as her age, background and general attitude...
To me, she's a bratty kid playing with fire, it's all fun and games neh?
Then again I haven't had the chance to see this supposed growth she've been having these last few books.

It wasn't a direct response to you so I'm not sure why you'd resent it. Frankly I find it refreshing that you're taking a look at the "softer" side of the male psyche rather than assuming that due to genitalia a male is more likely to be able to "handle" a situation.

I am just exhausted of the attitude both here, in Shadowrun and gaming in general that women are somehow more fragile creatures than their male counterparts. I realize that women are less populous in many circles of the gaming hobby but it doesn't mean that archaic patriachal ideas and ideals of women should be accepted.

On topic, there are not nearly enough females in Shadowrun that are in any way "Bad Ass" which makes me sad. I'm mildly interested in Dev's storyline but personally I find her to be trite. What CGL could really use is a female writer or two to introduce some strong female characters into current canon. That's a personal peeve of mine though.

I disagree, to me her being female has zero bearing on the aftermath of the first kill. I was thinking more about her age and upbringing (sheltered corp kid vs. a Barrens rat).

Striper (*shudder*), Black Mamba, Sally Tsung, Hard Exit, Hestaby, NetCat ... I could go on if I wanted to actually open a book instead of remembering off the top of my head.

Pistons, who was Elissa Carey's character. Though she doesn't write for CGL anymore.

Picador.

I will give you NetCat. I like NetCat a lot.

Hestaby? I could write a novel on how Hestaby being exiled is basically a distillation of everything wrong with female characters in role playing games but I've been trying to restrict myself from that.

Oh and nobody even think about bringing up Nadja. Any character known for her nipples by fans is another example of what is WRONG with the game.

Whoops. Double post!

Like I said, rotten morning, so my skin's probably more tender than it needs to be.

Okay, I must have missed something while I was walkabout for most of 4th. What caused this?

The point was: There have been tons of strong female character in SR. There have also been female authors. There may be an oversight, due to percentages but there is no agenda to put women in their place.
You specified badass.
Badass can be standing up to your loremaster.
Badass can be wtfmurdering everyone who's in your way.
Badass can be being a working mother.
Badass can ALSO be working in an executive role and as vice president. The nipples thing is embarassing, though, but at least in my environment it's people laughing at bad writing rather than an otherwise very strong character.

Picador, Kat O' Nine tales

The scale has been largely weighted to the male side for a long while there. The point is that from my (female) perspective, Shadowrun canon and the fandom has largely become very male dominated and has not allowed women to play on the same field. Women make up half of the population yet in a post-modern society where gender roles shouldn't matter anymore, current canon is pushing out female roles over and over again.

Sure, being badass can and is all of the above but the writers have the power to allow a woman in game have and be all that a man can just like the fans SHOULD do.

Many female characters have been named in this thread and the majority of them are pretty trite and contrived as far as female characters go. The male perspective can be very different on gender and equality, especially when you haven't lived as a women. So being someone who's been in the body of a female for quite a few years, from my perspective, I don't like them. They're banal and transparent. Dev's storyline could be greatly improved if she did choose an agressive lifestyle. But that's merely my 2 cents.

Can I throw one of my own characters in, just for shits and giggles? Lydia Bowden (based on one of the strongest women I've ever known). And one that's not mine but that I've adopted? Hannibelle (who was created by one of the women who write for this game).

You don't have to like them, but writing them off as if they didn't exist because some of them are written by guys? That's a cheap shot.

*put palms under cheek* then pray tell, what's a believable not contrived female character supposed to be like?
It's quite poignant to point out that there's quite a few characters in shadowrun that are quite transparent but they fill their role...
Like Slamm-0 being the dastardly manchild,
Clockwork being the ... uh, xenophobic techfreak?


I agree with Patrick though, It's quite annoying to be accused of certain things just because we're male.

So, a good friend and someone who's been in the body of a female for quite a few years recently complemented SR on its strong female characters. She didn't find them trite, banal or transparent, and in fact, I can name two other women who started playing SR since they felt it was rather cool to its female characters. One of them because of Miss Nipples.

I'm not trying to gang up on you here and I think your original point was a valid one.
A character shouldn't have problems with killing someone because she's a girl, it should be because it's a profound act to take someone's life, regardless of gender.

I disagree with your assessment of SR not having strong AND believable characters.

You know someone who got into the game because of Nadja Daviar? Really? Those novels are a lot to overcome....

Yeah, I groaned, too.
She found it awfully funny, though. Those glorious ... well, I digress.
She's been a fan of the woman ever since.

I'd also like to add that I don't want ALL of the runners in the fluff to be Stone Cold Killers !

I see no reason for /dev/grrl to put herself in the position to "kill or be killed" ... in a fight or flight situation, flight every time.

and most of the players I have ever games with even the most Troll-esque IRL have portrayed quite adequately women PCs.

not trying to be BADASS all the time is the key, but being BADASS when it counts and actually dealing with the humanity of your actions.

it just adds a whole lot to the RP and the game IMHO.

if the whole SR universe was full of folks who were down with being serial killers ... I'd reconsider my gaming choice

Welcome to the life of a female.

I'm not writing off every single female character. I'm sorry, I do speak in absolutes more than I should. The vast majority I find to be very banal and trite. I don't doubt it possible for a male to be able to write a female but it is a lot like art, you'll find many more anatomical errors when drawing the opposite gender. It's simply a point of fact.

There are those talented enough to be able to create another gender realistically, and I don't mean to be offensive. I simply find the male characters in current canon to be far more interesting and realistic than the female ones, especially runners. Even when you look at SR art it's gone from really awesome Prescott girls to T&A in many cases.

Here's an example, the SR 5th cover Vs the SR 5th box set cover. The 5th has huge anatomical issues and a tarted out girl all over the place. Created by a man as far as I was informed (I'll eat my words if not), the box set cover has two bad ass chicks kicking butt and they are drawn properly and dressed properly. That cover was drawn by a woman.

So I'm very sorry for speaking in absolutes, it's a major flaw of mine. Not every last female in SR is horrible but a lot are, and it's an area that could benefit from some work. IMHO.

Props to Echo Chernik, but ... Did you take a look at some of her other work? Taking one example of 'chicks' being drawn fully dressed from an artist that very much uses T&A in her work is a bit ... choosy.
Also, there _are_ anatomical errors on that picture. Interesting hip on that sniper and funny leg syndrome in the lower right corner.

In regards to the cover by Komarck ... Wearing a tank top and having bare arms is 'tarted out'?

HOWEVER!
I found out what happened to the Gingerbread Man (who is, btw a braggart and loudmouth and all his business is being run by his female first mate and he's just the pretty face ).
Seems he got into the Tempo trade after being king of the Bermuda triangle for a while.
He's still alive

It's the position in the Komarck cover and the over extension of the back that is a major issue. The pose and position are for the effect of sexualization.

I am familiar with Echo's work (I even got a badass dragon drawn on me by her during Scramble last year!) . I've always really enjoyed her SR art EXCEPT the Attitude cover. I never liked that. I've always felt that her work shows women that are in power and confident. She does do T&A but as far as her SR art it is believable to me.

Before we get way off topic Echo's work is VERY good as far as digital art and anatomy. I had a big long rant in the SR Cover Art thread but safe to say, her "errors" are pretty minor at best.

Now I need to get back to work (Joys of being self employed). Sorry for dragging this so far off topic. On an on topic note, I simply think that Dev should be able to shoot people, shoot people in the face for money, or choose to raise a family without having her motives and emotions questioned. That was my only point.

And I agree

But exploring a bratty corp kid being faced with reality is... intriguing.

There are also plenty of strong women who are comfortable with their sexuality and don't mind showing it off. Is the artwork disproportionate? Maybe, but at least fromt he SR4 artwork I don't feel like the women have been hyper-sexualized.

I don't see it as a gender thing at all. If it was 'Dev/boi' instead of Dev/grrl, and I liked that NPC, I'd feel the same. For me at least it's not a gender thing.

To be fair, Clockwork does stuff for metahumans. he's just a Technomancer bigot and racist who activly tries to turn them over to corps and works with corps on destroying them. (( A lil gem hidden in Corp Guide.))
I loathe the guy, but I hate him for what he is.

Not putting too fine a point on it, but that's not up to 'you' most times. Runs that get in, get out, and noone knows your there are the best ones. Thats usually 'the plan' (Unless the run is supposed to cause destruction etc.) but yeah.. that's the plan. Few people or runners purposefully put themselves in the position to kill or be killed. It's when that situation comes up if you like it or not. Often you aren't able to 'fly' unless you FIGHT to get out. If you're deep in a corp Zero-Zero zone and it hits the fan, you very likely can't just throw your hands over your head and run away. And that's mostly the point. If you are a Runner and you go into the field and you take the big runs. Not just milk runs. Sooner or later something untold and unplanned for is going to happen and it's going to be "Shoot the SecGuard or the SecGuard shoots you" (( or Knight Errant, or Lone star, or gang members, or whatever)).



More like multiple murderers. Serial killers have different qualities. Not every shadowrunner leaves a bloody swath of corpses behind them, but few and far between are the shadowrunners that don't have a number of deaths attributed to their hands. Even deckers fry brains and what not, and deckers that go into the field, sooner or later end up being forced into combat.

That might not be the plan, but when the combat comes to you.... *Shrugs*

Seriously think back to characters that have been played more than one game. More than 3 or 4. How many of those characters have never killed anyone. Or been with a group that hasn't killed anyone. Again if you're on the run and your two buddies kill, that blood is on your hands too even if you didn't pull the trigger or turn the knife.

I doubt very many people can claim that after 5 full runs or gaming sessions, noone's died. I'm guessing the body count after 5 gaming sessions is in the double digits for most groups. If not triple.

I'm not sure if I've seen the SR 5th Box set cover. Do you have a link?

http://sirdoomsbadcompany.files.wordpress....o-cerniksr5.jpg

Ahh thank you! I had not seen that one as of yet.

OK then, how do you think The Spawn Of Slamm-0! would handle killing someone at this point in his development?

Daddy's probably already got SoS-0!'s Trolling skill up to 3, so he could probably get some easily-enraged person on the Matrix to have an aneurysm. I could see it.

You must have been reading different novels than I have... There are a lot of positive female role models in Shadowrun ranging from Kane-level sociopaths all the way to Peg (the Paralyzed Decker!)

Also, a good deal of the artwork in Shadowrun demonstrates women in positive roles, while wearing outfits ranging from "Stripperific" to "Bland but protective". Men are also portrayed in this manner.

Men are also shown as victims, as are women. Shadowrun is pretty gender neutral when it comes to dealing with issues, and always has been.

So, /dev/grrl and killing has been talked to DEATH, what else does anyone have to say?

Since putting Dikote™ on ally spirits is still not an option ... Can I dikote /dev/grrl ?

No, she is an SR4 character, so Dikote™'s effects are already included in her stats. Sorry.