Dumpshock Forums > War in Shadowrun

Tzeentch

Jun 28 2013, 10:02 PM

QUOTE (TheOneRonin @ Jun 28 2013, 02:47 PM)

At a bare minimum, you are looking at straight 4s.

Augmentation can cover a lot of sins. Smaller militaries mean smaller recruitment pools. But given the guidelines for attributes (SR4A, p. 67) I don't see this as being unrealistic.

QUOTE

Let's go with rating 5 in specialties, 4 in common SF Core skills, and 2 in those other skills they should have familiarity with.

It's always been very difficult to do a skills-based jack of all trades in Shadowrun. Depending on the relative weight of Attributes and how combat skills are split it may be easier in the new edition.

QUOTE

So a single skill at Rating 5, one skill and a skill group at Rating 4, 4 skills and a group at Rating 3, and the rest at 2 or 1. And with Attributes, no Dice Pool that exceeds 9 dice. No, that doesn't sound over-powered or munchkiny to me.

They can maintain a wide skill base as a result of extremely tight training focus and very lavish budgets to refresh and maintain their intensive education. A typical starting Shadowrun character doesn't have that type of background or support, especially if they have low Lifestyle and have to hustle every day. The average warfighter (to use the generic term) has most of their cares taken care of, and special forces have far less useless bullshit to put up with. For a former special ops turned shadowrunner I don't see a huge problem with the current system - you're going to suffer some skill degradation from lack of practice and other things consuming your free time. In GURPS, this is reflected by the optional rules for skill degradation (GURPS Special Ops, p. 87) that is just as relevant to Shadowrun.

For active duty characters I can totally get behind a skill package system. Not surprisingly, this is basically the idea behind training for military occupational specialties and college majors - learning is supposed to benefit from efficiencies and synergies between the knowledge base of the skills being taught. It also makes sense as a general rule, but either way it would be optional unless SR5 already has something to say on the subject.

Fatum

Jun 28 2013, 10:20 PM

I'd say a lot BP can be shaved off in the example used with specializations. For instance, instead of Demolitions 2, he only needs Demolitions 1 (Plastic Explosives) (or Standard Army Explosives, if you're willing to go with custom specializations), instead of Etiquette 3 only Etiquette 1 (Military or Chosen area of interaction), etc.

Tzeentch

Jun 28 2013, 11:54 PM

QUOTE (Fatum @ Jun 28 2013, 10:20 PM)

I'd say a lot BP can be shaved off in the example used with specializations. For instance, instead of Demolitions 2, he only needs Demolitions 1 (Plastic Explosives) (or Standard Army Explosives, if you're willing to go with custom specializations), instead of Etiquette 3 only Etiquette 1 (Military or Chosen area of interaction), etc.

Aye, good point. Assuming specializations still are +2 dice they let you shave off a LOT of points in some cases. Defaulting is also very generous in Shadowrun.

Let's look at the SR4 skills and useful specializations, since I assume they are not going to be radically changed in SR5.

[ Spoiler ]

TheOneRonin

Jun 29 2013, 12:58 AM

QUOTE (PirateChef @ Jun 28 2013, 11:06 AM)

The simple answer is you can't play someone with that level of ability as a starting character.

Agreed. The BP system doesn't support it. My stance is that it should.

QUOTE

It's the same reason I don't show up at a 1st level DnD game and say "My concept is a 20th level wizard, why can't I play one?" Not everything is a playable concept at character generation. You can't play a multibillionaire owner of a megacorp. You can't play a great dragon. There are a lot of things you can't do as a 400 BP character.

Complete Straw Man. My example character is neither a great dragon, a 20th level wizard equivalent, or any other such overpowered nonsense. In fact, most groups would work just fine with such a character in their midst. His skills and abilities are not game-breaking, especially when you can have a LEGAL 400BP Street Sammy with a 10 AGI, Automatics and Blades at 5 + a Specialization, a Reaction of 9 and three IPs.

I would posit that the LEGAL Sammy above is much more problematic and game-breaking than the 18D I posted.

And the fact that the game allows the latter, but denies the former is, to me, poor game design.

TheOneRonin

Jun 29 2013, 12:59 AM

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 28 2013, 01:09 PM)

Indeed... My guy was an unaugmented Spec Ops Operative, and He turned out amazing. Of course, most of his skills clocked in between 8-12 Dice, so no uber DP's. But he was a solid build who could cover an amazing number of things when required to do so.

I've never used the updated Karmagen rules for 4th. What book are they in?

It seems like that might be a much better approach for building this type of character.

ShadowDragon8685

Jun 29 2013, 01:01 AM

TheOneRonin: You could adopt sort-of what I do for d20 games for a quick-and-dirty approach.

Let players invest bonus BP/Karma/chargen resources into their character, but put a limit on the highest ratings available - IE, no more than one 6, no more than two 5s, no more than four 4s.

Quick-and-dirty example for SR4, say, if a character wanted to limit themselves this way in order to gain a broader specialization, double their free knowledge skills and for every two chargen resources they invest into skills, they get a third point free.

TheOneRonin

Jun 29 2013, 01:09 AM

QUOTE (Nath @ Jun 28 2013, 02:20 PM)

The thing is, a special force operative no longer is a starting character. Five years in a regular unit is more like a typical starting character background. All the karma won during the subsequent five years in SF would come on top of chargen.

Semantics really. I can switch that out for an enlisted Navy SEAL with 5 years total in service (2.5 years training, 2.5 years operational) or an Air Force PJ with 5 years in.

I keep seeing people say "he is not a starting character". My question to you is, why? Is that solely based on the amount of BP/Karma it takes to build him? Is there some sort of other measurement you use like performance/capability?

What I don't understand about this is the same people can look at a character with Pistols(Semi-Autos) 6(+2), Agility 10, and cyber eyes with a smartlink and Vision mag throwing 20 dice every time he pulls the trigger and say "Yeah, that's a legit starting character" but you look at a realistically built SF type and say "NO WAY! He is too experienced/veteran to be a starting character!!!!"

How the hell does that make sense?

QUOTE

As a side note, these days most SOF would have Armorer 1, with a Picatinny Rail specialization

That's just silly, as well as Shadowrun's idea that you need to be an armorer to attach accessories to a 1913 rail.

Hell, my 9 year old can put my red dot and Grip Pod on my AK without any help, she surely doesn't qualify as a trained armorer.

ShadowDragon8685

Jun 29 2013, 01:10 AM

QUOTE (TheOneRonin @ Jun 28 2013, 09:09 PM)

That's just silly, as well as Shadowrun's idea that you need to be an armorer to attach accessories to a 1913 rail.

Hell, my 9 year old can put my red dot and Grip Pod on my AK without any help, she surely doesn't qualify as a trained armorer.

Your daughter has an awesome daddy/mama, and I hope you're teaching that girl trigger discipline.

(J/K. If you're teaching her to attach accessories, I know that would've been like, the third or fourth thing you taught her.)

Tzeentch

Jun 29 2013, 01:23 AM

QUOTE (TheOneRonin @ Jun 29 2013, 02:09 AM)

That's just silly, as well as Shadowrun's idea that you need to be an armorer to attach accessories to a 1913 rail.

It's not that bad. Most of the tests that use Armorer from Arsenal are for things like recognizing disguised guns (p. 21, 23), quickly reconfiguring a modular weapon (p. 27), exchanging missile warheads (p. 125), or for performing actual armory tasks to modify weapon function directly. Adding and removing accessories doesn't require any skill rolls (p. 148).

TheOneRonin

Jun 29 2013, 02:53 AM

QUOTE (Tzeentch @ Jun 28 2013, 06:02 PM)

Augmentation can cover a lot of sins. Smaller militaries mean smaller recruitment pools. But given the guidelines for attributes (SR4A, p. 67) I don't see this as being unrealistic.

I get that your recruitment pool is going to be smaller, but still think that only the really capable (mentally and physically) will be able to make the cut. The cool augmentations won't come until AFTER you've passed selection.

QUOTE

It's always been very difficult to do a skills-based jack of all trades in Shadowrun. Depending on the relative weight of Attributes and how combat skills are split it may be easier in the new edition.

I'm sure what I'm trying to do is something you can call a jack of all trades. That's not even the point of this exercise.

What I'm aiming for is a REALISTIC skill set that you find amongst the Special Operations community. Part of the problem with cherry-picking individual skills is you get a character who's only plausible background is "Mom and Dad were runners, and taught me how to be one". Most Military/Corporate agencies that train and employ people with the skillsets to be successful shadowrunners ALSO teach them loads of other things that are important, if not critical to their job that may not be relevant to shadowrunning. And with the expensive cost of Skill during character generation, a player can be hard pressed to be a character that represents a believe background in formal training an operations. Sure you can always use the "grew up in the barrens" cliche, but I seriously doubt the majority of successful shadowrunners would have THAT as their background.

For example, let's say you are working on building a Sammy that started out as an Army Infantryman, then did a Desert War tour with the Corps. Sure, the military background justifies his combat skills and the Corporate Sponsorship in Desert Wars explains his implants. But what if the player says "Gee, I don't have enough BP in my budget for things like Thrown Weapons (Grenades), Heavy Weapons, Gunnery, Navigation (Land), or Running, so I will just pass on those skills." So you have someone who was an infantryman and merc with ZERO training an experience with thrown grenades, Machine Guns, vehicle mounted weapons, no idea how to do the slightest bit of Land Nav, and never Ran/Sprinted a day in his life.

It's BS, and not internally consistent. But that game virtually FORCES you to make those sorts of choices. If you want to be really good at your core role, forget about having any points in anything that else.

For what it's worth, this is mostly due to the costliness of skills under the BP system.

At any rate, it's bogus that the core system tells you "Sorry Bub, you will never be able to play a former SF runner as a starting character unless the GM willingly lets you bend/break the chargen rules."

Hence my suggestion for packaged skillsets as way around this restriction that doesn't end up resulting in a character that drastically overpowers everyone else at the table.

QUOTE

They can maintain a wide skill base as a result of extremely tight training focus and very lavish budgets to refresh and maintain their intensive education. A typical starting Shadowrun character doesn't have that type of background or support, especially if they have low Lifestyle and have to hustle every day. The average warfighter (to use the generic term) has most of their cares taken care of, and special forces have far less useless bullshit to put up with. For a former special ops turned shadowrunner I don't see a huge problem with the current system - you're going to suffer some skill degradation from lack of practice and other things consuming your free time. In GURPS, this is reflected by the optional rules for skill degradation (GURPS Special Ops, p. 87) that is just as relevant to Shadowrun.

Got it. CAG Operators have to burn through thousands of rounds per day in the shoot-house to maintain that Automatics 7 + Specialty. I get that. And a former CAG guy who has been in the shadows for the past 18 months will probably have his CQB skills dulled considerably. But he won't forget how to run, swim, parachute, navigate, survive in the wilderness, use communications gear, use a knife to silently dispatch a sentry, blend in with the general populace, and keep his head on a swivel.

Maybe a former SFer who is in the shadows now may not start the game with the ratings he would have if he was still in training, but he shouldn't lose the skills entirely. Hell, what if is just 6 weeks into being a shadowrunner? Or what if he just went AWOL last week? Do you get to say "Well, you ETSed yesterday, so all of your skills immediately drop by 2 rating points,"?

QUOTE

For active duty characters I can totally get behind a skill package system. Not surprisingly, this is basically the idea behind training for military occupational specialties and college majors - learning is supposed to benefit from efficiencies and synergies between the knowledge base of the skills being taught. It also makes sense as a general rule, but either way it would be optional unless SR5 already has something to say on the subject.

Yes, optional is fine. But I don't think these packages should be restricted to only Active Duty characters. They should be available to characters who USED to be active duty, but are now full-blown shadowrunners.

TheOneRonin

Jun 29 2013, 02:56 AM

QUOTE (Fatum @ Jun 28 2013, 06:20 PM)

I'd say a lot BP can be shaved off in the example used with specializations. For instance, instead of Demolitions 2, he only needs Demolitions 1 (Plastic Explosives) (or Standard Army Explosives, if you're willing to go with custom specializations), instead of Etiquette 3 only Etiquette 1 (Military or Chosen area of interaction), etc.

I agree that certain specialties can help with the BP costs, but a lot of them don't actually work thematically.

For example, Demo 1 plus a spec is basically 3 dice, and that might be a little much for a non-specialist.

Likewise, Etiquette 1 with a spec doesn't make sense for an SF NCO who's primary job it is to integrate with indigenous people and win their hearts and minds.

TheOneRonin

Jun 29 2013, 03:05 AM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jun 28 2013, 09:10 PM)

Your daughter has an awesome daddy/mama, and I hope you're teaching that girl trigger discipline.

(J/K. If you're teaching her to attach accessories, I know that would've been like, the third or fourth thing you taught her.)

Thanks for the compliment.

She's not big enough to fire the AK or any of my other firearms yet, but safety is a HUGE deal in my house. She does help me clean them and tear them down when I come back from the range, though.

TheOneRonin

Jun 29 2013, 03:06 AM

QUOTE (Tzeentch @ Jun 28 2013, 09:23 PM)

It's not that bad. Most of the tests that use Armorer from Arsenal are for things like recognizing disguised guns (p. 21, 23), quickly reconfiguring a modular weapon (p. 27), exchanging missile warheads (p. 125), or for performing actual armory tasks to modify weapon function directly. Adding and removing accessories doesn't require any skill rolls (p. 148).

Touche.

Though apparently External Smartlinks and Gas Vent ACCESSORIES still require an Armorer + Logic test.

TheOneRonin

Jun 29 2013, 03:35 AM

QUOTE (Tzeentch @ Jun 28 2013, 07:54 PM)

Let's look at the SR4 skills and useful specializations, since I assume they are not going to be radically changed in SR5.

K. It looks like you are talking more about Big Army/Navy rather than the Special Operations community. I agree you on most points, but have a few things to add.

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Heavy Weapons: Depending on your branch of service you may never even touch one of these. Otherwise bread and butter infantry skill. Specialty: All are useful (well, assault cannon is dubious).

All of your SpecOps boots will have this. Whether 18-series, SEALs, CCTs, CAG/ACE, ISA, etc, they will all have the training and ability to effectively employee grenade launchers, Light/Med/Heavy Machine guns, and shoulder-launched AV weapons.

QUOTE

Longarms: Should never have been separate from Automatics in the Shadowrun level of detail. Oh well. Specialty: Shotgun would be most popular, but Sniper Rifles for marksman and snipers.

Ughhh. Don't get me started on this nonsense category. But yes, you would see this skill amongst breachers and DMs.

QUOTE

Pistols: Not as universal or useful as you might imagine. Most officers carry the service weapon, not a pistol these days. Specialization: Semi-Automatics.

Certainly not universal amongst regular units, but you won't ever see Special Operators in the field without a sidearm. Mostly, they are used at CQB ranges when your primary runs dry. It's much faster to transition to your sidearm than reload your primary. Again, this is a Special Operations deal. If I wouldn't have volunteered for my unit's competitive pistol team, I never would have touched a pistol the whole time I was an Infantryman.

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Navigation: Most default now, in 2074 it's a dump skill except in edge cases. Specialty: Depends on operational environment.

Default? I'm not convinced. Especially amongst Light Infantry and SpecOps. Land Nav is a pretty crucial skill, even in the age of reliable GPS devices.

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Survival: Most default. You have an entire organization behind you that does the work for you most of the time. Specialty: Depends on operational environment. May be learned on the job in some shithole situations.

Agreed for those outside of Special Operations. I'm sure SERE school is alive an well in 2075. Anyone regularly operating behind enemy lines is going to be well trained in this.

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Etiquette: The military is its own culture, with a surprisingly broad geographic range and crossover across nations. Specialty: Military.

Like I said up-thread, the 18-series guys are more than just door kickers. They are cultural specialists. They need to be able to socialize with more than just the dudes at the NCO club.

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Instruction: NCOs and officers receive actual training in this. Specialization: Varies, but most get by with just the general principles.

Agreed, for the BIG Army. 18-series guys are trainers and instructors as a primary function. This skill should be 3+ for them.

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Leadership: Rarer than you might think! Actual effective Leadership that is. Officers and NCOs are taught the skills, but most default and a surprising number are outright Incompetent at it. Shockingly, Shadowrun combines this with Strategy and Tactics! Oy. Specialty: Tactics and Strategy. A natural leader may have Morale.

After what I saw in PLDC and BNCOC, I would tend to agree. However, we again have an exception in the Special Operations community. No defaulting there.

QUOTE

Negotiation: Not really a military skill, but logistics personnel often learn it on the job. Specialization: Bargaining. (Shitbirds (lazy asses) will have an uncanny talent for Sense Motive.)

See my comments upthread about Army Special Forces.

Tzeentch

Jun 29 2013, 03:47 AM

QUOTE (TheOneRonin @ Jun 29 2013, 03:53 AM)

I get that your recruitment pool is going to be smaller, but still think that only the really capable (mentally and physically) will be able to make the cut. The cool augmentations won't come until AFTER you've passed selection.

Aye, but it means that the selection criteria can be a bit more relaxed in the first place. You have to assume that traditional methods of picking special forces are altered a bit anyways, if you have metahumans.

QUOTE

What I'm aiming for is a REALISTIC skill set that you find amongst the Special Operations community.

I don't see why this can't happen. But monstrously skilled characters may require some fudging to make work at chargen (which is fine, if everyone starts out under an alternate-build assumption).

QUOTE

At any rate, it's bogus that the core system tells you "Sorry Bub, you will never be able to play a former SF runner as a starting character unless the GM willingly lets you bend/break the chargen rules."

Base Shadowrun characters are extraordinarily competent compared to average people, even if they are supposedly gang members who made it big or whatever. They can regularly perform tasks that would stymie regular people and go face-to-face with elite forces with an expectation of success through teamwork, Edge, and access to special resources.

Shadowrunners are so deadly that they had to invent all sorts of shit-your-pants badasses to even challenge them once they start getting some Karma under their belt.

They may not be special forces all-stars, but a starting character is no pushover.

QUOTE

Got it. CAG Operators have to burn through thousands of rounds per day in the shoot-house to maintain that Automatics 7 + Specialty. I get that. And a former CAG guy who has been in the shadows for the past 18 months will probably have his CQB skills dulled considerably. But he won't forget how to run, swim, parachute, navigate, survive in the wilderness, use communications gear, use a knife to silently dispatch a sentry, blend in with the general populace, and keep his head on a swivel.

If you want to play the archetypical former special ops who never let his knife rust then you could just use the suggested optional rule for active duty personnel ("Intensive Training" or whatever). Of course, at least right now this sounds like a campaign optional rule, and not necessarily something that needs to be done just for the benefit of outlier character types.

QUOTE

Yes, optional is fine. But I don't think these packages should be restricted to only Active Duty characters. They should be available to characters who USED to be active duty, but are now full-blown shadowrunners.

I'm a lot more pessimistic about overall level of skill and retention

But an optional rule for skill packages seems to be generally useful and plugs this conceptual hole. It opens up highly trained mages from Xaviers School for Magi, deckers who studied intently under Master ShaqCrakk the infamous decker behind the '56 cyberheist spree, a street scholar with an almost supernatural breadth of capabilities and interests, and any other skill-based concept that chafes under the build costs and priority system which emphasizes very tightly specialized characters.

Tzeentch

Jun 29 2013, 04:13 AM

QUOTE (TheOneRonin @ Jun 29 2013, 04:35 AM)

K. It looks like you are talking more about Big Army/Navy rather than the Special Operations community.

Mostly. Honestly, I don't have any particular awe of special forces and treat them like everyone did at the operational level: as special task units of varying utility and competency. I saw enough of how their sausage is made to not take any hype at face value.

cndblank

Jun 29 2013, 04:16 AM

Let us not forget that besides loading up the special forces with the best cyberware and gear that tax payer's money can buy, they can also pay for the best VR training simulators and programming.

You go out do your PE get some real world shooting and training exercises in.

Then come back and plug in to the VR and your entire team can train together anywhere and any time in the world.
No chance of a training accident, no ammo costs, and no where and tear on the gear.
Update them on the latest changes.
Run people through their own specialties then have them cross train on someone elses.

And talk about being able to specialize for a particular type of mission?

And by 2075 I expect they can have a VR training simulator that is every bit as good as really being there (unless you are magically active).

Fatum

Jun 29 2013, 05:00 AM

QUOTE (TheOneRonin @ Jun 29 2013, 06:56 AM)

For example, Demo 1 plus a spec is basically 3 dice, and that might be a little much for a non-specialist.

He doesn't have too killer of a Logic attribute.

QUOTE (TheOneRonin @ Jun 29 2013, 06:56 AM)

Likewise, Etiquette 1 with a spec doesn't make sense for an SF NCO who's primary job it is to integrate with indigenous people and win their hearts and minds.

All of them everywhere? Or among the specific target populace? If redeployment requires certain familiarization with the local customs, that's just that: changing the specialization.

TheOneRonin

Jun 29 2013, 12:45 PM

QUOTE (Tzeentch @ Jun 28 2013, 11:47 PM)

Aye, but it means that the selection criteria can be a bit more relaxed in the first place. You have to assume that traditional methods of picking special forces are altered a bit anyways, if you have metahumans.

I will agree with you in that selection will have to change, especially considering metahumans and magic. But I don't see overall standards dropping. If anything, the 6th world is even more dangerous than present day, and your operators will need to be supremely capable. Sure, you can be willing to shore up some deficiencies with 'ware, and a lot of the smaller nations without a history of special operators will probably do that. But it's a tough pill to swallow for nations like the CAS, UCAS, the UK, Germany, etc.

QUOTE

I don't see why this can't happen. But monstrously skilled characters may require some fudging to make work at chargen (which is fine, if everyone starts out under an alternate-build assumption).

I'm having a hard time with the phrase "monstrously skilled characters". For starters, it is very easy under the SR4 chargen system to build narrowly focused but EXTREMELY capable characters with 15 - 20 dice in the skillsets that they will be using most often in a traditional Shadowrun game. Yet many of these characters are THEMATICALLY broken because they are so hyper-specialized. You have characters that are world class at their chosen specialties, which in itself is fine. But how did most of them get there? In most cases, you are looking at some sort of formal training in the characters' pasts...either corporate or LE/government/military. And those types of training programs WILL include skills that are relevant to that particular job, but not necessarily critical to being a Shadowrunner. But the chargen system doesn't really allow you to build those characters. In fact, the entire game rewards hyper-specialization. There are skills out there that are VERY appropriate for certain character backgrounds, but no one will ever waste points on them (i.e. Former Navy SEAL and the Diving skill).

And I'm not sure how the 18D I posted up-thread is "monstrously skilled". Maybe you can help me with that disconnect.

QUOTE

Base Shadowrun characters are extraordinarily competent compared to average people, even if they are supposedly gang members who made it big or whatever. They can regularly perform tasks that would stymie regular people and go face-to-face with elite forces with an expectation of success through teamwork, Edge, and access to special resources.

Shadowrunners are so deadly that they had to invent all sorts of shit-your-pants badasses to even challenge them once they start getting some Karma under their belt.

They may not be special forces all-stars, but a starting character is no pushover.

Now I'm really confused. You are saying that Shadowrunners are "extraordinarily competent" and can go face-to-face with elite forces with an expectation of success. Yet I should have ZERO expectation of being able to built a character who used to be a member of those "elite forces" (that REAL Shadowrunners regularly defeat) because "you can't play someone with that level of ability as a starting character"?

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If you want to play the archetypical former special ops who never let his knife rust...

I didn't suggest that. In fact, I fully agree that some of their trained skills that would be rarely used in the Shadows (i.e. Parachuting, Instruction, maybe Navigation, Heavy Weapons, Survival, etc.) would probably atrophy. But how long does that take? Does the amount of time the character has been away from his unit play a part? Do you tell the Mage character "Sorry dude, you can't start with a high pistols skill because your character just doesn't use it very much in the shadows, so it is going to atrophy,"?

QUOTE

I'm a lot more pessimistic about overall level of skill and retention

Do you have a problem with Sammys and Adepts that have a Street background throwing 15 - 20 dice when shooting at chargen? I'm not sure how that is okay, but a former SF guy with a thematically appropriate skillset that throws a much more reasonable number of dice with his best skill is not.

QUOTE

But an optional rule for skill packages seems to be generally useful and plugs this conceptual hole. It opens up highly trained mages from Xaviers School for Magi, deckers who studied intently under Master ShaqCrakk the infamous decker behind the '56 cyberheist spree, a street scholar with an almost supernatural breadth of capabilities and interests, and any other skill-based concept that chafes under the build costs and priority system which emphasizes very tightly specialized characters.

I agree. Again, the biggest reason for me wanting something like this is so characters come out looking like the should in terms of what trained skills they would have. As a GM, it's something I would force on players who wanted to build former Special Operations/SWAT characters. Allowing cherry-picking just results in very unrealistic characters, IMHO.

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Jun 29 2013, 03:32 PM

QUOTE (TheOneRonin @ Jun 28 2013, 05:59 PM)

I've never used the updated Karmagen rules for 4th. What book are they in?

It seems like that might be a much better approach for building this type of character.

The official rules were included in the German Updates. You can find them somewhere here.
The meat of them are:

Race costs BP in Karma
Stats are advanced at 5x New rather than 3x New.

The few times I have used the Karma Gen Rules, I was pleasantly surprised and very happy with the results.
I think that the biggest issue with "Missing" skillsets for the concept that we are discussing is that people are unwilling to use the Skill descriptions in the book to set their character's expertise. They WANT (and even NEED) to have that skill at 6 (or two at 5) to make it work in their mind. The way I follow that is to go with the descriptions. I shoot for 3's in professional skills first, and fill in all my skills for the concept. After that, if I have some points remaining, longevity in field hits, and I generally boost a skill or two to the 4 range to show time in service. If I still have some points remaining, I fill out other areas that may be a bit thin. It is the RARE character that I have that starts with 5's or 6's, and then, only with very specific skillsets that shine because of story elements, and normally not combat related skills at all. And yes, that means that my specialist with the 6 is likely not throwing more than 14-15 dice at the most. Most of them would never make it against the hyperspecialized characters that Dumpshock puts forth. Oh well...

ShadowDragon8685

Jun 29 2013, 04:55 PM

TJ: Because pegging your actual skills to those ridiculous skill descriptions (which are pure fluff and which nobody ever bothered to playtest against the numbers) will result in "Professional" characters who are absolute drek at doing the things they are supposed to do in the course of their criminality.

That's unforgivable, especially when you're talking about the character who's making the skill roll that makes or breaks the run. Some Yakkity Sax bullshennanigans on the part of the combat monkeys can be forgiven, because there are alternative ways to win your fights, most of them involving the magician, or breaking out the heavy weapons.

But when you're talking about the face who either secures <X> person's cooperation or the run is scrubbed, or the hacker who either gets into this matrix system now and unseen or the run is scrubbed, a 3 doesn't cut it.

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Jun 29 2013, 05:26 PM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jun 29 2013, 09:55 AM)

TJ: Because pegging your actual skills to those ridiculous skill descriptions (which are pure fluff and which nobody ever bothered to playtest against the numbers) will result in "Professional" characters who are absolute drek at doing the things they are supposed to do in the course of their criminality.

That's unforgivable, especially when you're talking about the character who's making the skill roll that makes or breaks the run. Some Yakkity Sax bullshennanigans on the part of the combat monkeys can be forgiven, because there are alternative ways to win your fights, most of them involving the magician, or breaking out the heavy weapons.

But when you're talking about the face who either secures <X> person's cooperation or the run is scrubbed, or the hacker who either gets into this matrix system now and unseen or the run is scrubbed, a 3 doesn't cut it.

Point of View... If the world works on the scale of those descriptions, then the characters also work on those descriptions. By design, they are balanced at that point. Unfortunately, from my experience, you have players who "Set their character's expertise" at Best of the world, and then get frustrated when their defaulting/minimum rank 1 skills do absolutely nothing, because the opposition actually has decent baseline skills that they cannot overcome. This also tends to frustrate the GM and anyone else who makes more general characters, because the opposition has to come up if they are to offer a challenge.

Having played for years using this frame of character construction, I can say that when you play to the World's setting, you are competitive and have great longevity. If you DO make the Hyper-specialized character, that forces the opposition to up the challenge (if the goal is to challenge the character), and then you end up with whole swaths of the world that no longer make any sense. Using the Skill descriptors, then, allows for the character who HAS spent his time gaining the Best-in-Best designation to actually mean something in game. His reputation matches his ability. Trying to go the other way is a path to insanity, because you do end up with characters who are literal nobodies who have the leet skillz of Fastjack, and that makes no sense at all.
None of the characters I have played over the years have had any issues fulfilling their duties as a Shadowrunner while using those descriptors.

Yes, I know, I harp on this a lot, but I am a firm believer in what I am saying. I have played in both types of games, and the Hyper-specialized, one trick pony is just horrible. Decent specialization still results in dice pools in the 13-17dp range, and allows the character a lot of room for growth, in my experience. I will step down from the soapbox... My apologies.

TheOneRonin

Jun 29 2013, 05:33 PM

QUOTE (Tzeentch @ Jun 29 2013, 12:13 AM)

Mostly. Honestly, I don't have any particular awe of special forces and treat them like everyone did at the operational level: as special task units of varying utility and competency. I saw enough of how their sausage is made to not take any hype at face value.

To each his own, I guess. I spent some time around some 18-series guys, and even shared some beers with a couple of Combat Controllers. You are right, SO guys aren't gods...not by a long shot. But, as a whole, they are VERY skilled and capable professionals. All of the ones I've gotten to know are highly intelligent and out of the box thinkers, top-not problem solvers, EXTREMELY fit, and determined to a fault. I also know just how thoroughly they were able to wipe the floor with us when we were the OPFOR when they ran through JRTC at Polk.

When I think what a skilled and professional Shadowrunner would be like, I think of these guys. They often times operate in small teams, in non-permissive areas, with very challenging missions. That isn't how the Big Army (Navy, Marines, etc) works. But in Shadowrun, we aren't trying to emulate the Big Army.

We are playing characters as part of a team that is much more CIA SAD PMOs than a light Infantry fire team.

TheOneRonin

Jun 29 2013, 05:37 PM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jun 29 2013, 12:55 PM)

TJ: Because pegging your actual skills to those ridiculous skill descriptions (which are pure fluff and which nobody ever bothered to playtest against the numbers) will result in "Professional" characters who are absolute drek at doing the things they are supposed to do in the course of their criminality.

That's been my experience too, at least for all of the non-combat skills.

Part of the other problem in SR4 is that you only get about 40% of your total pool from your actual skill. The rest often comes from attributes and gear/implants/magic.

At least according to the previews, it seems like SR5 is doing SOMETHING to fix that issue, though Limits are still based on attributes, not skills.

Tzeentch

Jun 29 2013, 07:30 PM

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jun 29 2013, 05:55 PM)

TJ: Because pegging your actual skills to those ridiculous skill descriptions (which are pure fluff and which nobody ever bothered to playtest against the numbers) will result in "Professional" characters who are absolute drek at doing the things they are supposed to do in the course of their criminality.

I can mainly speak to SR3, but the skill level fluff descriptions worked fine under the assumption that you had competent to excellent attributes to back them up. I think a serious discussion of skill levels and actual levels of competency (Attribute + Skill) depends a lot on how SR5 handles tests and where Limits and the like come in.

Just read Storm Front. I liked the dragon battle story, but the entire thing sounded like they just rolled up in a clumped up line and then started firing. I don't think there was anything relevant to a military sourcebook in it (one mention of the Kitty Hawk aside).

Tzeentch

Jun 29 2013, 10:32 PM

Runner Havens
Set in 2070

Mercs

Combat, Inc. has set up shop near Macao. (p. 34)

Metroplex Guard

"Weekend warriors outfitted with mostly outdated gear and commanded by crooks, they’re good for bashing heads during riots but little else." (p. 68)
One of Seattle's major employers (? How?). (p. 68)

Joint Task Force Seattle

Brigadier General John Ethan Darcy in command. (p. 69)
Controls UCAS Army Pacific Command (?). (p. 104)
Six thousand troops. (p. 69)
NeoNET supplies delta-grade super-soldier packages through Transys Neuronet. (p. 78)
Psychotropic and Psychological Warfare division handles cyber defense. (p. 105)

Everett Naval Shipyards

Vice Admiral John Lienhard is captain of the USS Colin Powell. (p. 69)
- May be a bit chummy with Salish-Shidhe military. (p. 69)

Intelligence Agencies
-- When did Department of Homeland Security get retconned into Shadowrun? (p. 69)

Nath

Jun 30 2013, 02:02 AM

QUOTE (Tzeentch @ Jun 30 2013, 12:32 AM)

Intelligence Agencies
-- When did Department of Homeland Security get retconned into Shadowrun? (p. 69)

AS far as I can tell, in Runner Havens. It has been mentioned in at least Seattle 2072, Spy Games and Conspiracy Theories. There was no Secretary of Homeland Security mentioned for the Haeffner administration in Dunkelzahn's Secrets: Portfolio of a dragon. No one so far bothered to justify the retcon, but I guess the Winternight attacks and the New Revolution coup in 2064, with both the president and the secretary of defense assassinated, could prompt the creation of a department of homeland security.

Tzeentch

Jun 30 2013, 02:05 AM

Gun Heaven 1
Set in 2072
-- Most of these illustrations are too funny to take seriously.

"The latest trends in weapons development feature integrated electronics, including commlinks and software. This allows commanders to precisely target opponents and dictate the terms of an engagement. Today’s soldier is no longer an island on the battlefield; they are nodes in the network with self-preservation protocols." (p. 3)
P298 (used to be) issued to the (Polish) Zandarmeria Wojskowa (Military Gendarmerie). (p. 4)
M1098 issued to Royal Air Force crews during EuroWars. Turned them in 2050. (p. 5)
Mk31 with smartlink add-on (used to be) standard for the CAS military. (p. 16)
MP-7 used by Amazonian second-line troops. (p. 23)
AK-112 used in small numbers in Russian service (and in storage. (p. 26)

Gun Heaven 2
Set in 2072
-- Silly illustrations.

"CSM-419 shotgun in approval trials for MET-2000. (p. 6)
Copernicus used by select units in the Portuguese and Spanish armed forces. (Shadowtalk specifically mentions military police.) (p. 22)
Steadfast pistol (a few crates at least) are used by MEt2000. (p. 37)
Punisher used by the Arabian Caliphate. (p. 41)
JP-K49 used by UN peacekeepers in Poland. May be used by the Philippine Navy as well. (p. 43)
L-493 used by Greek minotaur conscripts. (p. 44)
Dragoon may also be used by Greek minotaur conscripts. (p. 49)
Mega-Power used by Turkish anti-terrorist teams. (p. 50)
Type-84B used by the Sichuan military. (p. 53)
Cz-64 standard weapon of Turkish military and intelligence agencies. (p. 54)

Tzeentch

Jun 30 2013, 02:26 AM

Archaic Articles of Interest
-- My Shadowrun stuff has been back online for quite a while, but people may not realize it

Tzeentch

Jul 2 2013, 02:42 AM

Mil Spec Tech 1
-- I'm not really looking at the stats right now but some seem ... hmm. Like the Body 36/Armor 28 vectored thrust MBT (Stonewall).
-- Continues the proud tradition of there being no standard for how MET is used. I've seen it as MET2000, MET 2000, MET-2000.

GMC MPUV. (Presumably the Shadowrun version of the HMMWV.) (p. 5)
LAV-103. 20 with light vehicle cannons purchased by Australia and diverted to South America. (p.
CAS/GD Stonewall. Beginning to phase out of CAS service. (This sort of implies that countries can have 'rights' to a design, which is interesting.) (p. 9)
Lobo. UCAS and Aztlan scout LAV. New construction is at a factory in the Canton Confederation. (p. 11)
EFA Variants. Metroplex Guard replaced EFA aircraft with Eagles in 2070. ([/ 13)
C-260. "[W]orkhorse of the modern military." (p. 15)
Unicorn. Deployed on all UCAS aircraft carriers as a nuclear bomber.
Hound. Transport for the Imperial Japanese Marines. Also used by Knight Errant in Hong Kong. (p. 28)
Ahuitzotl. Aztlan patrol submarine. (p. 31)

Mil Spec Tech 2

A-74. Used by the Royal Marines. (p.
BMV-3. Used by the Russian military. (p. 9)
M-173. Replaced older designs in the UCAS National Guard. (p. 10)
Longstreet. Official CAS IFV. (Continues theme of CAS being heavy in panzers.) (p. 11)
B-6. CAS Air Force stealth bomber. (p. 15)
Hunt. Frigate. CAS Navy has purchased 2. Also being marketed to Tir Tairngire. (p. 18)
Florida. SSGN. CAS Navy has purchased "several" In service with several nations.
Hensely. Destroyer. Athabaskan Council has at least 1. Kingdom of Tongan operates 5. (p. 20)
AN-74. Selected by Turkestan's Interior Ministry. (p. 21)
Riptide. (As the text doesn't explain it, terminal guidance is done by having a sensor probe extending outside the cavitation bubble. Guidance is typically done by using what amount to skis that skate inside the bubble. The picture is actually pretty accurate.) (p. 24)
Medusa. Point defense laser. Used by UCAS Navy vessels and fixed installations. (p. 25)
Stealth Shadow. Used by the British. (p. 28)
MTR. ATGM selected by the UCAS National Guard as platoon-level missile. Accepted in the UCAS Army as the M-231. Also some shipped to the Caliphate. (p. 30)
Zuni IX. Used by the IJN and UCAS Navy (implied still in service). (p. 30)

Tzeentch

Aug 15 2013, 05:57 AM

Shadowrun, Fifth Edition

Example Street Samurai character with UCAS military background. (p. 64 stats, p. 92 for skills)
Weapons Specialist archetype has a military background (p. 118)
Device Rating 4 is milspec (p. 234)
Host Rating 11-12 is military command network. (p. 247)
Some notes on military campaigns. (p. 355)

Wakshaani

Aug 15 2013, 08:43 AM

QUOTE (Bearclaw @ Jun 27 2013, 11:12 AM)

Just a little point that's been bugging me:
The idea that mega-corps have "standing armies". There is no way. Standing armies cost giant piles of money, and don't make money. Having worked in several "non-profit generating areas", such as IT, Validation and Security over the years, I know exactly how corporate outsourcing works, and this stuff would be outsourced. Sure they'd have security, but again, the cheapest they could get away with, and most of the lower level stuff would be handled by outsourced renta-cop agencies. They would pressure the host nation-states to provide security for everything that wasn't super secret, at tax payer expense, and hire mercenaries for anything that needed a real military force. Let MET-20000 deal with training, equipment, and all the logistical crap it takes to keep an army running.
My point is, other than Aztechnology being both a company and an imperialistic country, most large militaries involved in corp stuff would be mercs. Just like now

*dredges thread*

Ares used to make a lot of money renting its forces out to other corps, who didn't really have their own presence but would need some now and then for brief periods. This seems to have changed in the late 50's/early 60's when Drek Went Down. In the usual "You prepare to fight the last war, not the next one" mindset that comes out of these things, everyone was caught with their pants down, then over-compensated, which would explain Megas snapping up supercarriers. (There's also bound to be a status thing. Saeder-Krupp bought one, since Lofwyr knew that the Comet would spark some Orichulum rushes and wanted to have force projection under his claw rather than rent some out. Seeing how well thatw orked for him, other CEOs went, "We need that too!" and started a brief race.)

By the early 70's, the assorted corps have looked at their balance sheets and gone, "Why the Hell do we have a fraggin' supercarrier? Have you *seen* the operating costs of that thing? All it does is steam around and get scrubbed by four thousand employees. We need to dump these things." I'd lay good odds that they've been getting sold to hotspots and corporate military forces 'right-sized" all over.

Which, you know, provides a great starting point for a PC. Keiko was a member of Renraku's military arm, but when the division was reduced, she was laid off. Not having any other applicable skills, she started selling her services (ahem!) to whomever needed them, eventually falling in with a Shadowrunning team as the weapon specialist. While some part of her still loves Renraku (The corp is mother, the corp is father), they laid her off and cast her aside, so crew 'em. Taa daa!

At this point in time, my guess in terms of AAA-rated corporate military would look something like so:

The Big Dog: Ares
The Ares Macrotechnology Corporate Corps is the largest, most powerful corporate military on the globe. Ares lives and dies by its reputation as the best money can buy. Nearly 60,000 fighting men strong, it's lead by Lt General Benton Franks, who answers directly to the CEO. The Corporate Corps has never been fielded as a full fighting force, but is instead divided and rented out as needed. It consist of 16 Regiments, composed of 2 Heavy Armor Regiments, 4 Light Armor Regiments, 8 Infantry Regiments, 1 Air Support Regiment, and 1 Naval Support regiment. (The commanders of those last two remain indignant over the title of ‘support’ being attached to them, but it’s thought that Damien Knight has an axe to grind against Air Force and Naval personnel and chose the title to get some small petty satisfaction.)

Each Regiment is roughly 3600 men, which are further broken down into battalions, companies, platoons, squads, and fire teams as per old United States military layout. The smallest unit that is typically rented out for combat is the Battalion, but squads are sometimes hired to train militias. It’s important to also note that these numbers only take into account men under arms, or direct combat personnel. The Ares Macrotechnology Combat Services Operations is well over 800,000 employees, handling supply, support, assorted bureaucratic functions, legal, and many other fields. The Corporate Corps’ reputation gets Ares hired, but the Services Operations arm makes the profit. CSO handles logistics and repairs behind the lines, and is typically hired by nation states to handle matters in safe zones, freeing up combat troops for front-line activities.

Nipping at Their Heels
Aztechnology is #2 with a bullet, currently being expanded greatly due to combat losses with both Amazonian and Sirrurg. Veteran forces who have scored a major victory in direct combat with a Great Dragon, Aztechnology forces are in high demand even as their numbers have been sorely depleted by the very war that made them famous. They’re currently offering jobs all across the nation of Aztlan, taking advantage of the food shortages there to gather troops with lower than usual pay, training them, and sending them off to other nations to live off of their supplies. This has resulted in a much lower than usual quality in Aztechnology troops and is a source of friction with areas that they’ve been hired as poorly-trained troops with morale issues are a constant thorn in local populations even as the leadership of those nations crow about having “Dragon slayers” under contract. Media in these countries continues to be leveraged “for the good of the nation” to keep such stories under wraps.

Evo remains a surprisingly strong player in the field of corporate militaries, if only for the ongoing strength of Yamatetsu Naval Technologies. Much like Aztechnology and Aztlan, it’s often times hard to see where YNT ends and the Russian army begins. The record profits that YNT made in the 60’s are ancient history, as other corporations realized that they simply didn’t need to keep buying huge money sinks like supercarriers anymore and, indeed, have been divesting themselves of said ships for centinuyen on the nuyen. No longer needing to produce such ships, and losing the support contracts for same, have resulted in massive layoffs to the division and a general malaise in morale.

All three Japanacorps used to have large support networks for the Japanese Imperial Forces, back when the new Japanese Empire was in full swing, but the Ghost Decade wiped most of this out. As the new era approaches, these divisions are starting to wake from their slumber and profits are being re-assigned to these areas in ever-greater volume.

And the rest
Saeder-Krupp happily builds war machines for Europe, waving the previous Russian invasion and the ever-present threat of Muslim uprisings as banners to buy buy BUY their product, but keep little in-house themselves. Lofwyr invested in several carriers before the Orichilum Rush, giving Saeder-Krupp excellent force projection and the ability to enforce claims worldwide, but by the late 60’s, they had sold them all off to rival corporations, having extruded all the use from them that was intended. S-K maintains a small group of standing special forces troops, but no true army.

NeoNET continues to dabble in the field, having absorbed former Fuchi assets that have never been integrated, but has been content to leave most of that kind of thing to fellow “AmeriCorp” Ares. Mostly, they contract out to Eastern Europe, in support of forces there keeping an eye on Russia.

Neither Wuxing nor Horizon has any corporate military assets, but both have small support divisions as any diverse AAA-rated corp should. Wuxing supports military forces in “Warlord China” and in those SE Asian areas that distrust Japan, while Horizon was present in Amazonia and seems to have found it to their liking.

(All this is just IMHO, mind you, trying to massage things into a more internally-realistic mode.)

Voran

Aug 15 2013, 11:44 AM

The main issue I see is how deep do you want/need to go. Not all of us that play have any military background, and consequently our 'military knowledge' comes from movies and books and videogames, which may usually not be the best examples. So, if you come out with material that doesn't fit that perspective, it can be confusing and 'not fun'. At the same time you don't want to put forth DIDNOTDOTHERESEARCH stuff that it disconnects those that HAVE military experience so they go "Yeah, we need to throw this entire section out, because its bullshit."

If you're leaning towards Pink Mohawk, the mindset should be, "my experience is gaming that has me as a one man army with huge character shields and the ability to depopulate Lebanon during a mission". Or "Expendables". Mid-range would be I dunno some form of military version of "Flashpoint" (the canadian swat tv series). No idea what reality mode would be.

Type of game matters too. Even in SR5 threats and stuff, it has listings for 'special forces types' in excess of starting chars and reasonably equal to prime runners (though a bit more specialized/etc). On one hand you don't want to necessarily devalue the 'very fucking deadly' types, but on the other hand you want (generally) the players to feel like their fates aren't set simply because they face tough foes.

Some other thoughts:

As much as I like stats/gear books, on one hand it tended to get a little silly. "Why do I have stats for this aztechnology attack sub? When is this ever going to come into play?" Or "This thing has a hundred+million nuyen pricetag,....ok" As fun as say the Milspec Tech books were, most of the stuff was "Yeah, this is never really going to come into play."

So in a sense I'd like a focus back towards what would be likely for a 'fresh SR5 generated' group to be involved in. Apparently shit went down in Stormfront, how does this impact the opportunities for new runners to 2075? If its "You show up to this area, get carpet bombed and molested by toxic spirits, make a new character" that's not really helpful

What kinda disappointed me was that despite a seemingly meatgrinder journey from 5th world through 6th, every major power seems to have had enough time and resources and manpower to come up with "SEALs-are-fucking-jokes" superbadass crews that seem omnipresent. Losses don't seem to have an impact. Will the losses during the stormfront wrapped wars have any real impact? Other than criticism that I read about Aztlan suffering huge losses but then magically has enough forces to pull off "yeah we're taking Denver again!" level of stuff.

In the overall metagame, military seems either oddly absent, silly redundant, or "handwavium it'll just kill ya' level. There's little palpable tension for the Seattle stuff regarding 'nations', instead the usual 'crime stuff'. Since historically military isn't very good with policing civilian stuff, nor fighting the criminal stuff, for a Seattle game, does it really matter there's a supercarrier or joint task force or military bases? Other than "What can we steal?" not much.

In general I think the theme of the game has gotten perhaps a little too tame. I mean even the Brackhaven stuff and Ork Underground stuff, some violence, but in the end...so what? You want military to be relevant? Seattle needs another night of rage + crash level impact that isn't simply handwaved away with "here's new tech!" Not a Bug-town Chicago level shakeup, but something that makes sense to have military in the streets or something.

If designing a military/merc setup, I'd potentially recommend RIFTS Mercenaries for ideas on categories on putting together a merc group, small to large scale.

Nath

Aug 15 2013, 12:29 PM

QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Aug 15 2013, 10:43 AM)

it’s thought that Damien Knight has an axe to grind against Air Force and Naval personnel

Uh. Consider David Gavilan was an USAF officer, who probably made his career in SR equivalent of US Cyber Command, that's one of a U-turn.

QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Aug 15 2013, 10:43 AM)

Evo remains a surprisingly strong player in the field of corporate militaries, if only for the ongoing strength of Yamatetsu Naval Technologies. Much like Aztechnology and Aztlan, it’s often times hard to see where YNT ends and the Russian army begins. The record profits that YNT made in the 60’s are ancient history, as other corporations realized that they simply didn’t need to keep buying huge money sinks like supercarriers anymore and, indeed, have been divesting themselves of said ships for centinuyen on the nuyen. No longer needing to produce such ships, and losing the support contracts for same, have resulted in massive layoffs to the division and a general malaise in morale.

Canon-wise, Yamatetsu went from zero in Corporate Shadowfiles to something in Corporate Download, when it established Yamatetsu Naval Technologies as an umbrella for its 40 patrol ships, and started negotiating with the Russian to have some national units on hold to answer corporate needs.

Then Corporate Guide says YNT is where you find most of the remaining Japanese hardliners. Which makes little sense for a division that was created after the move to Russia, headed by a Russian officer and relied mostly on Russian assets. Possible retcon would be that YNT came late to the party, soaked huge losses, and the Japanese hardliners had the Russian managers fired to replaced them with their own men.

QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Aug 15 2013, 10:43 AM)

Saeder-Krupp happily builds war machines for Europe, waving the previous Russian invasion and the ever-present threat of Muslim uprisings as banners to buy buy BUY their product

The "ever-present threat of Muslim uprisings"? Could M. Frank Miller leave my Shadowrun, please? As far as canon goes, the issue only exists in Andalusia in Spain. In the Balkans, there is a threat of "muslim uprising," but not more than the threat of catholic (Croatian) or orthodox (Serbian) uprising.

Wakshaani

Aug 15 2013, 12:33 PM

QUOTE (Nath @ Aug 15 2013, 07:29 AM)

Uh. Consider David Gavilan was an USAF officer, who probably made his career in SR equivalent of US Cyber Command, that's one of a U-turn.

*d'oh*! I knew that, but fuzzy brain at something insane AM makes mistakes.

QUOTE

The "ever-present threat of Muslim uprisings"? Could M. Frank Miller leave my Shadowrun, please? As far as canon goes, the issue only exists in Andalusia in Spain. In the Balkans, there is a threat of "muslim uprising," but not more than the threat of catholic (Croatian) or orthodox (Serbian) uprising.

It should be pointed out, here, that this is a play on fears after the Islamist invasion of the past. Essentially, the Dragon can go "You never know when they'll attack again. Onejusttwitched!" and jumpy people will buy stuff. It's a marketing gimmick, not an actual truth. (A certain Master Shedim notwithstanding.) The Middle East of 2075 ain't invading *anybody*.

Voran

Aug 15 2013, 06:32 PM

I'd prefer to see some churn up regarding the NAN. More intertribal stuff as well as against UCAS/CAS/Tir etc. There isn't enough tension (in my opinion). Maybe the SSC gets tired of some of the polluting and strikes at Seattle, or they decide, well if the UCAS isn't doing something about this toxin zombie shedim ghoul crazypeople population in the Barrens that kinda borders our territory, maybe we should.

Voran

Aug 15 2013, 08:16 PM

Actually in general I'd like to see a devolution in the degree of control/status quo of the various powers that be. I dislike the notion of "Shadowrunning only occurs through the grace of higher powers allowing it to be so". So push things on the metagame level so that all these powers are openly and actively fighting against SOMETHING which a newbie looking at the overall picture (newbie player, not character) could go "Oh, that makes sense why you have all these shadow teams running around" Anyhoo, so destabilize things so military (national guard, active military, whatever) is something runners can realistically cross or work with in their daily lives rather than disconnected into specific regions.

Tzeentch

Aug 15 2013, 08:21 PM

There hasn't been a lot of "military" action in the Shadowrun world. Worse, most are tied up or otherwise killed off between books because they rarely impact most players. I suspect that to avoid this problem it would be best to concentrate on the brushfire wars and the mercenaries. I'm probably going to look more closely at the merc system from BattleTech than the point-buy system from Rifts though (although that is fun).

Fatum

Aug 15 2013, 08:33 PM

QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Aug 15 2013, 12:43 PM)

Evo remains a surprisingly strong player in the field of corporate militaries, if only for the ongoing strength of Yamatetsu Naval Technologies. Much like Aztechnology and Aztlan, it’s often times hard to see where YNT ends and the Russian army begins.

While the Corporate Guide states that "if you’re looking at a Russian tank, fighter jet, or warship, you’re looking at a Yamatetsu NT product", there are bunches of Russian arms producers that have no canonical mentions of being owned by Evo. Like Gaz, Nizhniy Tagil Inc, Krasnoe Sormovo, MiG, Sukhoi, or Ilyuishin. So far the best explanation for that small controversy has been offered by Nath: YNT produces the tech that goes into every piece of wargear in the Russian arsenal, like IFF modules.

shinryu

Aug 15 2013, 08:56 PM

QUOTE (Fatum @ Aug 15 2013, 08:33 PM)

While the Corporate Guide states that "if you’re looking at a Russian tank, fighter jet, or warship, you’re looking at a Yamatetsu NT product", there are bunches of Russian arms producers that have no canonical mentions of being owned by Evo. Like Gaz, Nizhniy Tagil Inc, Krasnoe Sormovo, MiG, Sukhoi, or Ilyuishin. So far the best explanation for that small controversy has been offered by Nath: YNT produces the tech that goes into every piece of wargear in the Russian arsenal, like IFF modules.

or much as general electric basically makes all the jet engines in the US, period. or at least a hell of a lot of them. new sukhoi su-72 with 3-axis thrust vectoring and pugachev cobra button? i could see that having YNT engines, avionics, other stuff.

Fatum

Aug 15 2013, 09:34 PM

Or maybe co-owning the plant that makes them in some kind of a corporate-government circlejerk.

shinryu

Aug 15 2013, 09:43 PM

QUOTE (Fatum @ Aug 15 2013, 09:34 PM)

Or maybe co-owning the plant that makes them in some kind of a corporate-government circlejerk.

that does seem appropriately russian in character. anybody know if yamatetsu picked up gazprom at some point? (though it might not exist as such in shadowrun).

shinryu

Aug 15 2013, 09:43 PM

dammit. double post.

Fatum

Aug 15 2013, 09:47 PM

SK or ZIC seem like the ones most likely to pick such a company.
The only mention of Gazprom I remember is in the recent Euro Wars Antiques.

Voran

Aug 15 2013, 11:27 PM

There are some benefits/freedoms with a war/merc campaign. No real need to restrict yourself with 'restricted' gear, feel free to walk around with the forbidden stuff. Its almost pink mohawk in its own way.

GloriousRuse

Aug 16 2013, 02:21 AM

What I would want from a War supplement would be an actual good, intellectually feasible look at armed conflict as executed in the environs of Shadowrun's 2075.

An acknowledgement of the increasing diffusion and balkanization of power continuing a trend wherein warfare is increasingly non-contigous, socially and diplomatically complex, and unrestricted in the Chinese sense of unrestricted warfare. Then mix in the fact that force on force style conflicts have the potential to be even more of an uber-blitzkrieg in certain conditions. Now realistically assess the effects and uses of magic, the matrix, and the technology, society, and economy you have designed into the game.

I want it to reflect a probable 5th generation of warfare, not be a bad retread of WWII with some fancy dan toys and a ridiculous reason for them and a gurgling acknowledgement towards guerrilla war that might have been very poignant when Lawrence was in Arabia.

It should make your average well heeled human being chew thoughtfully on the implications, methods, and consequences, and then still require a few good sessions of reflection and contrast to "get it".

If you can do that, I would be far happier than a simple splat book.

Now, to the SF argument:

The 18 series conversations: They don't live up to the myth, honest. They are rarely the most intelligent, culturally sensitive, innovative soldier-statesmen around - even the 18A's, supposed the Face of the team, are often not nearly the level of mature diplomat cum shooter that you would expect. Nor are they so personally proficient as to be particularly more valuable in a firefight. To be honest, most of the effectiveness of JSOC comes not from ubermencschen on the ground as it does an extremely well resourced and often quite intelligent headquarters that is well networked and is free'd from several restrictions.

CAG and the SEAL Team 6 types do have intensive training support, and do develop exceptional combat skills and physical physique as a result, but believe you me they are just as capable of making some dumb ass mistakes as anyone else - and they often have a problem playing well with others.

Tzeentch

Aug 16 2013, 03:36 AM

One big thing you would have to work with in a military campaign are <cue scary music> Rules of Engagement.

I have a box on this for a GURPS project, but the key aspects don't change in Shadowrun (so maybe not pink Mohawk, more pink crew-cut). Here's the key point.

QUOTE

Rules of Engagement (ROE) are an often misunderstood aspect of military activity. ROE’s define the circumstances, conditions, degree, and manner in which force (lethal and nonlethal) is authorized. They limit some activities, but also provide clarity and explicit authorization to engage or continue in combat engagements if they meet certain criteria. Although often derided as fetters that limit tactical effectiveness, some form of ROE is mandatory under most legal frameworks; their use ensures adherence to the various Laws of Armed Conflict (LOAC), limits political (and legal) liability, can help avoid diplomatic sanctions, and ensure compliance with applicable local laws.

So, sure, you can have an assault cannon. But you're not nearly as free to use it as a shadowrunner (or even corp security, in some cases).

Voran

Aug 16 2013, 04:01 AM

I dunno, I kinda fail to see how ROE has been kept, aside from "desert wars" in the SR stuff. Bioweapons, toxic spirits, use of bug spirits, nanogoo weapons, dragons, paracritters, trees that eat people, etc. Even the SR sidetalk has characters remarking its not so much that there are rules against assault cannons, just that using them makes you target #1 after 'geek the mage'. Aztlan blowing away ships without warning during the tempo stuff, use of shock troops by various groups, etc.

Its a larger scale of "MDC troopers in NYC don't act nice cause they like you, its cause they're on camera" You take away the camera and public eye and all sorts of nasty shit has happened in the SR setting.

Tzeentch

Aug 16 2013, 04:08 AM

Well, in the case of Aztlan you can view that as yet another way they try to portray them as the bad guys of the setting. No impulse control!