Remington Roomsweeper is a Heavy Pistol-sized (conceal 0) sawed off shotgun that holds 8 shells in the magazine. Defiance T-250 is a full-sized shotgun that holds 5 shells. The short barrel T-250 has a conceal modifier of +4.

I've used plenty of shotguns and I promise that a 8 round magazine will stick out about 2 feet. Even if the Roomsweeper uses a box magazine like a Saiga it would ruin the concealability. I believe these figures have been this way forever, but maybe it's time for a logical change?

Roomsweeper doesn't shoot full sized 12gauge shotgun rounds like the actual shotguns do, it shoots .410 bore shotgun shells like the real life Taurus Judge Revolver.
This is quite evident from the damage codes.

No way, birdshot does not do 7P. Even if it did, 8 shells is still a very long tube magazine.

Who said anything about birdshot, .410 isn't exclusively available as birdshot

That is off topic, the logic is that the Roomsweeper should either have less ammo capacity and/or the T-250 should have more. Common sense.

.410 shells are the same length (2.5" or 3") as standard 12GA shells. Hence why the Judge has an absurdly long cylinder.

So no, using .410 doesn't explain anything, unless the Roomsweeper is using an oversized cylinder. A standard shotgun-style feed would still have to be at least 21" long, more likely 23" to account for the spring and endcap.

They used to be called Skyhoes, but the name was withdrawn for a number of reasons.

This seems to have not been seen by everyone.

Why was this one moved here?

What on earth give you the idea that Roomsweeper uses standard shotgun-style internal magazine, that would be utterly impractical in a pistol.

On an completely other front, shouldn't prime runner be able to get better contacs in chargen and not just more of them?

Sorry. My shovel scooped too widely. Moved back.

I just have to say, even after this is corrected, there totally needs to be something in SR5 called "Missile Party".


-k

MRSI equipped Missles?



also:
under SR4, cyberware-scanners with millimeter radar were pretty much everywhere by both fluff and crunch and you needed to broadcast your sin almost everywhere you went.

i have not read anybody bitching about this as of yet in terms of SR5.
is that one of the things simply glossed over/retconned then?

The Roomsweeper used to be a sawed off cut down shotgun, often double barreled, that was crammed with debris as ammo with crude black powder propellant. More or less the kinda gun you might see in the Barrens.

Wow have things changed.



-k

I think you're refering to the Streetsweeper.

Edit: Accidental multipost

Yeah no, thats the sreetsweeper

Ah, okay then, nevermind.

Though I would not be surprised if the Roomsweeper was originally a Corp attempt to create a saleable version of the Streetsweeper, while missing the whole point of that weapon.





-k

hmmm... get a bunch of heimdall drones, load them up with social skill autosofts. mod them to have arms, and a holoprojector so that they can project faces. add virtual personalities to taste.

I would never use the weapon art as a guide when trying to figure out how these guns are supposed to work, but you have to break the laws of physics to get a Shotgun with an 8 round magazine to be as concealable as a heavy pistol. Shotgun shells are quite large, even if we're using .410 which I doubt, but this is also the rules set that for 25 years has let the Slivergun operate on seemingly magical laws.

Because a shotgun cut down to the size of a heavy pistol looks like this :

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8rk2hUC...n310o1_1280.jpg

That is the Serbu Super Shorty. It holds 3 2.5" or 3" shotgun shells, two in the tube magazine and one in the chamber.

An 8-round stacked magazine is going to be ~3.5" wide, 1" thick, and 7" long to contain shotgun shells, which is absurdly large for heavy pistol concealability, as it would increase the gun to the size of a small SMG.

So how the hell is it -supposed- to hold 8 shells?

It uses special high tech tiny shotgun shells.

Is it a gauss gun, then? Because even if you take all the propellant out of the shotgun shells, you're saving maybe half an inch of length.

There's a Remington Roomsweeper in the SR Blog





-k

Hehe - I was thinking the same thing. The name is too cool to pass up. Maybe errata the adept power name instead of the text?

Ok, with that, I refuse to believe that it holds 8 shells. It looks remarkably like the Serbu Super Shorty.

I'm still a fan of the Raust Roomcleaner though.

It fires 10mm steel spheres that are chambered into reusable "shotgun shells" via magnetic hose feed. The standard application has a backpack reservoir (which is enough ammo to fire on full-auto for a solid 15 minutes*), but one could easily adapt it to using a water buffalo.

Ostensibly it was a full auto shotgun firing 10 00000 (yes, ten quintuple-aught) buckshot per shell on narrow choke at a max range of 600 feet.

*I did the math way back when playing Alpha Omega. I got the gun because it was fucking awesome, then had to figure out how much ammo I wanted/could afford/could carry. I eventually worked out the density packing of spheres combined with the density of steel and so on. Something like 2500 marbles fit inside 5% of my backpack (volume assumed from a real world hiking backpack) and didn't weigh an excessive amount (10-20 pounds?). It was still enough dakka to full auto for about a minute.

Helical mag, maybe?



-k

a .410 shotgun round is the same diameter as a .45 ACP round. here is a link to the Wikipedia article for the Tarus Judge line of Revolvers, one of which has a 7 round cylinder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurus_Judge

Yeah, the complaint wasn't the diameter, though, it was the length. They are the same length as most other shotgun shells.

Therefore an 8-shell straight line ammo tube would stick out two feet or more.

A helical mag, though... that might be very fat, but it'd be much shorter. And the pic shows a very fat, short mag.



-k

Yeah, given the picture, helical mag makes sense.


That said, I question how that has a heavy pistol's concealability.

Page #131 of SR 5 Core has 'Specific Martial Art' listed as a possible specialization for Unarmed Combat.

After seeing that, is anyone else considering getting a 'Shooting' specialization for their Firearms skill?

My suspicion is that the correct wording should have been: "...or by specific Martial Art maneuver." Any takers?

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

I thought that to mean having a named martial art as your specialization, which in turn may have specific attacks /manuevers to it that will be available in later splats.

So I can take Unarmed Combat with specialization Muay Thai, and eventually purchase specific effects.

But just guessing

Indeed, I think that is what they are going for.
But, honestly, it is no different than taking "Semi Automatics" for your Pistol Specialization. You will try to use your Specialization whenever you use the skill. No problems here, move along citizen.

I always specialize Unarmed Combat (Headbutting) because using your hands/feet is for pansies.

Maybe its got a dual feeding tube like the Keltec KSG, and therefore only needs to be as long as 4 shells? Well, that'll still make the tube as long as my 870's.

Helical it is.

Right.

Like, I'm going to specialize in Longarms: Centerfire.

Additionally, I'm going to specialize in Negotiation: Communicating.

Along with Hacking: In the Matrix.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Well, this is very True Indeed... Got to LOVE the Headbutting Specialty. You can even use it when your hands and feet are bound. Though generally Not when you are Hogtied.

Unless you have a friendly mage with levetate around (or you ARE said friendly mage).

Well, for Centerfire Specialty, at least 80% of your weapons, which are either electrically fired or rimfired, are RIGHT out.
The Communicating Specialty might clash with the Poker Faced Specialty (which I much prefer over Communicating, personally)
As for being IN THE MATRIX, you will never get that bonus while in AR, so... Sucks to be you.

See, each and every one of your Specialties has Drawbacks. Bet you were not counting on that, were you?
You do know that SR4A handles Specialties in a Far More Comprehensive manner, right?

Ooooh.... The Levitated, Hogtied Head-butt... what an awesome visual. Will have to try that one in tonight's game.

Bull has been on record, at least, that he lobbied against "martial arts" being a specialization for unarmed.

Clearly, he was overridden.

I for one would like to see martial arts as a combination of skill packages and special maneuvers, in whatever combat book is appropriate.


-k

Yeah, the martial arts spec is too broad, especially when there are other specs like "Blocking" and "Subduing". Everyone should take the martial arts spec, then get your spec bonus when you either block or subdue. This should be replaced with something like "Striking", so that a player can take a spec in "Blocking" or "Subduing" or "Striking".


On another note: what's the meaning of the table on page 368, "SIN Verification Details" ? I can't see what it's for. It LOOKS like it could be giving a description of what each device rating of SIN scanner checks when it checks a SIN, but that seems useless since it really only matters what happens depending on the test.

But you CAN take Blocking, Subduing, or Striking as a Specialty. AS WELL AS Kicks, Punches, Tai Chi, Muy Thai, Tae Kwon Do, etc. It is all part of the Flavor of the Character. If you happen to Choose a Martial Art that does not use Subduing or grappling, then you cannot use your bonus when performing those actions. That may mean a bit more work for the Player, but I prefer that, rather than hard-coding what specializations you can or cannot take. Obviously some choices will be disallowed (Shooting for Pistols, for example) while others are a bit more flavorful (Called Shots for Pistols, for example). And since Specialties do not stack, you could effectively generate a character, over some time, that gets a +2 to any action with a given skill, because a few specialties can cover the vast majority of situations. Your example Specialties for unarmed combat: Block, Subduing, Strikes, Grappling would cover 99% of any action that you take with Unarmed Combat, so should I disallow you to take them, even though the rules allow it?.

AS always, don't be a prick player on this, and things will work out.

I don't think you're making much sense here. If a character has one spec that could apply in 99% of the situations ('martial arts'), that spec is too broad. If a character has spent the karma to buy 4 different specializations, it seems fair to allow them to apply.

Flavor of the character can be much better accomplished by taking the Unarmed Skill with a spec in Subduing. Then you tell everybody "My character is an expert in Judo". See, lots of flavor, and good rules to back it up. Everybody wins.

Then in a later splat book, introduce maneuvers and skill packages and whatnot that add more rules to actually make the flavor matter. You can describe your Taekwondo specialist doing a spinkick all you want, but currently there are no rules for it. Add a maneuver that gives +1 DV and -1 target defense, and now you've got the start of a really good stew.

It is a little like taking specialization for Driving (Things That Move).

Really, many martial arts are really multiple combat skills, not just a specialization of one skill.

For example, my Ukrainian MystAd is supposed to be trained in Systema, which encompasses unarmed, blades, and even some firearms techniques. But the SR5 rules don't model that kinda thing, so I spent points in unarmed, blades, and firearms. I just hope that a future combat book will actually have a system for building stuff like that.



-k

I almost missed it, you're committing a TJ fallacy with this one

Now that is just awesome... Missed it myself, Good Catch.
But it is a Valid Caveat to Gaming. SO I guess it results in a TRUE FALLACY. Weird, that.

Ha!

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

Or something similar to what this baby has
The 8 round mag wouldn't need to be much longer then 5 inches