doubt it, when is the last time two western militaries faced off against one another? as long as the pistol cartridge people are using works against the average grunts of the third world militaries it will not be obsolete. the CRISAT redteam bodyarmor standard that we're working against is kind of obsolete in my opinion.

(NATO CRISAT Target: 1.6mm of titanium and 20 layers of Kevlar at 50 meters)
this is a NATO standard thats supposed to represent the body armor capabilities of our enemies which might have made sense in the cold war but as far as i'm concerned they should unofficially revise it to a thick turban "helmet" and 10 layers of islamic cleric's robes.

thats just what is seems like to me, do the Chinese PLA issue body armor? North Korea? Iran? as much as other european and other western nations piss america off i seriously doubt there will not be a war between our countries.

1945? Just as long ago as the last time a western army fought Russia. The last time a western military fought China was, what, 1953? I can't think of a time that westeners have fought Iran, and it seems extremely unlikely that you will. Same for North Korea -- if you want to prepare for a fight against them, you'll just need to get your missile protection systems into gear.

Yes, many of the possible future OpFors of western militaries don't have much in the way of personal armor, nor will they have very soon. But the ones you mentioned are the most likely ones to soon have body armor, once the current technology starts to become old and they can start buying full suits of soft body armor from criminals in South America.

You can currently see armored vests on soldiers and policemen in large parts of Africa, the Caribbean, South America and Asia. Obviously it cannot be too expensive or hard to get just about anywhere in the world. Any possible threat country, if it can expect a war some time in advance, could easily equip a sizeable part of its army with body armor. Once the kind of full protection I discussed has become as commonplace in the West as armored vests are now, they'll start popping up all over the world as well.

And there are special requirements. A small group of terrorists, special operatives, or a similar strike force is more effective to equip with body armor. Armies don't have to deal with criminals, but the police do, and I'm pretty sure the boys in blue wouldn't mind a handgun that can both penetrate soft body armor and create a wound cavity a bit more significant than a 5.7x28 or the .224 BOZ. If they can design such weapons, special operations units might as well adopt them.

the FN FiveseveN has been available to US Police forces for a while now and i know of no police force that has adopted it standard issue, maybe a few swat units have one or two as a prestidge thing pistols aren't too important for swat units.

if it can't even meet the 9mm FMJ standard subcalibres will remain a european fantasy. pay attention to FNs name for 5.7x28mm, it's SS190 (similar to the NATO standard SS109 5.56x45mm, trying to imply that this will be the next NATO standard pistol cartridge by giving it a name meant to be confused with an existing standard).

maybe the problem is that a lot of these necked down penetrating cartridges are designed by recoil sensitive europeans. the HK PDW doesn't make sense in that it has a powerful miniturized G36 gas-operated action yet fires a underpowered cartridge that could just as easily be used in a blow-back design.

these are the PDW cartridges i've heard about:
5.7x28mm (Fabrique Nationale)
4.6x30mm (Heckler & Koch)
.22 Colt SCAMP
6.5x25mm CBJ (Saab-Bofors) 9x19mm necked down, only needs a barrel conversion
.224BOZ (Civil Defence Supply)
.224VOB/5.56x23.5mm (Tuma MTE) 7.62x25mm Tokarev necked
7.82Sx24 (Leitner-Wise)
9x30 Russian GROM (for the Gepard SMG/PDW)
they all pretty much suck except for the GROM (perhaps Leitner-Wise) but it's a much more conventional cartridge, the russians have so many great designs like the GROM and AN-94 that they can't really make in scale because of their economy. the one made by Leitner-Wise is a 10mm necked down AND using a saboted 5.56mm bullet, allowing the possibility to quickly change to a larger 30cal projectile (similar to the versatility you were talking about).

Hey, don't start with me, I've never fired anything smaller than 7.62. I am absolutely not infatuated by small calibers. I am very much aware of the problems of such extremely small projectiles, and that is why I'm looking for a possibility of firing effective AP ammunition out of a gun that can just as well fire something larger against unarmored targets.

I found a site claiming the 9x30 "High Impulse Armor Piercing" ammo to penetrate level IV armor at 450 meters. On the other hand, the same table claims that 9mmP rounds can penetrate level IV armor at 70 meters, so apparently they are talking about something completely different or are totally clueless.

If you can get a 10x25, .40S&W or .45ACP pistol to reliably penetrate NIJ level III armor at at least 50 meters and remain lethal through it, it doesn't have to be a SLAP just because that's what I originally asked about. However, all that I've read about the penetration performance of Russian pistols and SMGs is generally either BS or not that impressive. And the only large caliber armor piercing rounds that I'm aware of are Russian (they seem to like the number 9...). So until I can get some data on them that I know I can trust, I'm a bit sceptical.

Actually 90 grains, in a powder measure is the standard load for the bess. A bigger load can go up to 120 grains but no more.

As for stable? Have you spend a lot of time on smooth bore? Stable is not a word to be used. We're talking pretty much broad side of a barn.

That's why I have the Webley, for style.
The Beretta's for emergencies.

As for being an anglo-phile, I'm just not addicted to German gunsd the way a lot of people are, and lets be honest, French guns like the St. Etienne, '93 Lebel and Chau-chat were infamous for being screw ups.

Thank you, though I'm not sure for what.

hmm, think i'll have to get both (both have matching grip designs ).
http://www.southernohiogun.com/new_hand.html
http://www.southernohiogun.com/surplus_hand.html

Beretta 951, adopted by Israel and later by their enemy Egypt. thats one hell of a complement. Might even be more than just a plinker if I find it works with more than FMJ such as Federal EFMJ or Corbon Powerball.

416 rounds of Bulgarian FMJ? i bet your mailman hates you.

Right, that's why I put the upper limit at 120 grains, not a fear of blowingo ut the gun but because you gain nothing extra.

As for the tight bullets/patches, if you take the time to load them sure, but that tight fit makes them slower to learn. most competitions I've seen have a time element and this is with flint locks, not precussion caps. So most trouble is taken napping the flints and, if it's humid, wiping down the frizzen.

Historically you didn't get accurate fire until the Baker Rifle circa 1802. At Saratoga there was a British rgt that fired a volley, and missed with every shot.

this is interesting lets follow up on that
10mm and .45ACP and .38 Super all have an OAL (OverAll Length) of 1.25-1.30''
there are longer cartridges that have been put in autopistol grip magazines such as .357Mag, .44Mag, .50AE (all 1.6'' OAL) in desert eagles and coonans, they are uncomfortable and nobody has dared trying to make them double stack. everyone i've heard from will also admit that the FiveSeven pistol is uncomfortable around the grip, it's a long slim cartridge with long spitzer type bullet on top (again a 1.6'' OAL) but it works as a double stack because it has a slim .30 case width.

i think what people should try now is making a PDW cartridge based on a fatter cartridge case 10mm or 45ACP and make it a single stack mag. the .224BOZ might be close to this but i doubt it has near the energy of the 10mm it's based on because 1) the case was shortened 2mm from 25mm to 23mm (probably to enable it to accept that long spitzer bullet and 2) case capacity decreases from the necking down. they mention velocities from 1750-2200fps and 50gr. bullets being really generous and assuming that the 2200fps is from the 50gr. that's still only 537foot-pounds.

here's what i'd like to see:
.227 Dumpshock [5.56x25mm]
a 10mm case necked down to 5.56mm
it's a long spitzer bullet with an armor piercing tip. it measures a surprisingly light 42gr. because the first 1/3 of the bullet is an armor piercing tip and lead yet the back 2/3rds are aluminum with a hollow cavity of air (similar to the 5.45x39mm Soviet) that bullet exits the muzzle at around 2700fps producing 679 foot pounds of energy (similar to the hot loaded CZ52). when it hits the body it should not only be unstable and tumble quiet a bit like the 5.7x28mm is supposed to (longer bullet than the 5-7 means it will produce better wounds during said tumbling) but it might even fragment during the stress of that tumbling due to it's relatively weak aluminum/air-cavity construction.
Damage: 9M (halve armor effects)
Range: Heavy Pistol

another spin off cartridge from this would be
.300 Dumpshock
a .45ACP cartridge necked to .30
it sends 85gr. bullets at 1800fps and gives the operator the option of switching to slow and heavy 230gr. bullets for silenced operations with merely a barrel change (you'll need a threaded barrel anyway). basically just like a CZ52 but more powerful and versatile
Damage: 9M
Range: Heavy Pistol

Fortunately we've got 60 years to wait. That helps with making a lighter action capable of handling higher pressures.

I still feel my idea of getting the "best of both worlds" without more than a change of magazines would be workable, upgraded to a 10mm caseless round with an overall length of ~36mm and a diameter of ~13mm. Amount of powder to propel a long projectile in a sabot should no longer be a problem if the sabot can be designed to be fully wide only in a short section. Combined with the volume increase you can get from making the cartridge a rectangular prism instead of a cylinder, that should do it.

Not that I have anything against otomik's designs. The Damage Codes of course break down if you start comparing Heavy Pistols and Assault Rifles, so I won't.

Alliant Power Pistol is one of those better faster burning lower pressure making powders that has made new loads possible in recent years. The 10mm and .45ACP have relatively generous case capacity which makes them so versatile, i'd have to do some math to figure it out for sure but i'm pretty sure there's no dangerous pressures involved with what i described.
here's some craziness with Alliant Power Pistol
http://www.geocities.com/mousemag32/mg21.htm

it's kind of a matter of opinion about the feed problems and i don't know much about WSSM because they always seemed rediculous to me. 10mm necked to 5.56mm isn't much different from the 9mm to 5.56mm you see on the .223 Remington and it feeds fine as far as i'm aware. .45 to .30 isn't that much of a stretch either, you can see that kind of neck on both .308 and .30-06.
i don't know if these are really comparible to WSSM because i don't know WSSM cartridge dimensions.

austere, you may have found another positive to caseless design i usually don't give caseless much thought because it doesn't seem worth overcoming all the engineering problems associated with it and it just seems bizarre. do caseless weapons need ejection ports, if not what do you do after you just chambered a dud round?

In this particular case, the weapon could work almost identically to a cased design. The cartridge might even have a hard metal (or polymer/plastic by the 2060s) base, which is ejected as normal, to allow the feed and ejection to happen just as it would with cased cartridges.

Most caseless designs up to now (though admittedly there have not been many) include a provision for an ejection port in case of a malfunction or just a desire to empty the weapon. The G11 had one, for example, though it was never used during the course of normal firing.

If you say so. I know almost nothing about the Brown Bess or charge weights for it. However, prior to your 90 grain comment, when we were discussing "grains", we were talking about bullet weights. I assumed you were talking about the same thing. That's why I mentioned that a 90 grain, 0.75" projectile would be a pretty odd thing to come by.

And what mcb said. Sabot slug loads through a shotgun can get you within 6 inches at 100 meters these days. More here.

Glad to know I'm not the only pussy around here. (Check out the link above.)

I have a lot more replying to do here and very little time to do it with. One thing I would like to say is, in reference to this handgun AP ammo thing, READ THIS FRIGGIN PATENT. Install this software and look at the patent images. It's worth the effort.

Absolutely.

In the cotext we're both using it, the term "grain" is a standard English measurement of weight equal to 1/7000th of a pound (avoirdupois). We're both using the same system of measurement, we're just talking about the weight of different objects.

In the English system, the particular grain used was a barelycorn. In the world of firearms, the most commonly used metric equivalent to grains is grams (1 gram = 15.432 grains).

You don't need a C&R license unless you're planning on collecting a lot of older guns. If you just want a CZ52, all you need is your friendly neighborhood FFL dealer. Go to your local gun shop, bring in the magazine ad and show them what you want. They'll order the gun for you. It will be shipped there, and they will handle the paperwork. Most FFLs will charge a small fee for this service.

Check back here in about a week. I will be posting a report.

A very sharp, very hard donut travelling a lot faster than any cream-filled powdered donut is likely to.

I think it was a combination of the ban on AP ammo (no commercial market to offset R&D costs), a lack of interest in pistol-caliber AP technologies, as well as other AP technologies that were in development around the same time (SLAP, Raufoss, etc...). I'm sure the feed ramp gouging didn't help any, but that's certainly a problem easily solved.

It appears to me that this projectile offers the best performance possible from a pistol-caliber platform. The fact that you don't have to deal with the problems sabots introduce seems like a plus to me. Even though the load would be supersonic, a version of this bullet without the discarding obturator could be suppressed. Another plus. In the patent, he quotes this load in .45 ACP as 109 grains at 1400-1500 fps. That's an improvement for the .45 ACP, certainly. But if you have the choice, the .45 ACP is not exactly the most ideal platform to start from. If the 10mm Auto can launch a 200 grain bullet at 1200 fps, think what it can do for a bullet half that mass. I'm thinking 1900+ fps shouldn't be a problem.

There's a newer patent for this bullet design, which includes some changes. US5275110.

The other viable option is the Russian SJESC bullet, as used by the Russians in several different cartridges. It's pretty much just a sub-caliber steel core with a thick copper jacket surrounding it. Replace the steel core with tungsten carbide and there you go.

Of course you can dedicate a cartridge to the task, which seems to be the route otomik and mcb are taking (and I tend to agree with), but it seems that Aus was trying to figure out a way to make a decent AP load for a semi-auto handgun cartridge also capable of good subsonic ballistics (for use with sound suppression), with the firearm being built around the cartridge. That's what I'm trying to address here.

it's actually a thick aluminum jacket with a long steel penetrator that protrudes a little at the top and bottom. i like this idea, the subcalibre will pentrate if it hits something armored and if it hits something unarmored it will still expand. this would make a nice low cost replacement to M882 if they added a copper jacket. a tungsten penetrator would be nice but i have a feeling it's one of those economy things the russians like to do like steel cases, they probably use the same carbon steel penetrator from the 7N6, 7N10 or 7N22 AP-type 5.45x39mm cartridges. aluminum and carbon steel would be much easier to standardized on, but a deluxe version with tungsten and kevlar tip would be nice too.
http://club.guns.ru/eng/barnaul.html

that seems to do the trick because i'd hate to go underneath the 9mm FMJ standard unless it's the only thing that penetrates especially if it's not needed (i'd hate to be stuck with a 5.7x28mm NATO standard caliber if all i was doing is popping skinnies in some 3rd word shithole). i doubt body armor proliferation is going to happen much, it degrades over time, gets worse with moisture and sweat so 3rd world body armor is going to be rare and or crappy.

The problem with black powder is the size of ther grains 2F, laike large salt grains is standard for muskets and rifles. 1F veru coarse, for cannons, down to 4f with is as fine as baby powder. 4F makes really good priming but because there is so little space between the grains it doesn't work as well for the primary charge.

Do you know of any other source to verify that? I can't find one. I know that this guy says it's an aluminum jacket, but everything about the jacket in that picture sure looks copper to me (the edges where the jacket is torn are not silver-colored, for example). I guess it would make sense in terms of ballistics that the jacket would be made of aluminum as it weighs less than copper, but what doesn't make sense to me is that they would bother to copper plate it prior to swaging it around the penetrator. Obviously, the penetrator isn't copper plated, while if the jacket were aluminum, it would have to be to make any sense in this picture. Anyway, either would work just fine.

The New World of Russian Small Arms and Ammo by Charlie Cutshaw does not offer any enlightenment except to say that the Russians tend to be "very secretive" about the particulars of ammunition technologies. Perhaps you have info you'd like to elaborate on. As I'm sure you can tell, I'm pretty interested in this concept.

Yup.

Tungsten definitely would make a much better penetrator. Kevlar tip? Like boots?

Probably another reason why NATO-affiliated nations haven't put a whole lot into anti-personnel AP technologies. There weren't many com-block nations that would have had the resources and technology to develop decent body armor technology. Russia and maybe Yugoslavia.

But things have changed in the world of Shadowrun. In that case, Aus is right. Someone would have to figure something out that would be interoperable in one firearm for both kinds of missions.

Nearly all pictures of armed government soldiers or policemen showed body armor in Haiti. There, at least, it was certainly not sporadic -- most had it.

And while Haiti might be in the minority among 3rd world countries, I cannot see how that minority would not get significant fast. Given 60 years, it could easily be the majority.

If it helps, i feel the same way when people talk car mechanics.

Then I guess this is a completely pointless discussion. I absolutely do not think that way, I try to think of everything in terms of at least 2030s technology, or however far into the future I can project my imagination.

While you know it, it should be mentioned that that body armor is no where near as old as M14s. That style of kevlar helmets hasn't been around more than 10-15 years. Assuming you keep the protective covers on the armor intact and don't abuse the vest a lot, the protective value shouldn't significantly deteriorate in 10 years. Level I protection is extremely rare in obvious body armor, I still haven't seen it anywhere, so I doubt that's anything less than level II -- which is what the 12-year-old vests I used in the Finnish DF were.

Now going with my line of thought, the shelf life of body armor is going to increase in 60 years, a lot. Their vulnerability to water and general wear and tear is going to decrease, a lot. Some militaries might still be issuing 20-year-old body armor which would still be guaranteed to any common pistol non-AP rounds, or even rifle rounds, depending on how heavy that armor is. The protective value of rigid body armor shouldn't deteriorate at all in normal use.

If it being uncomfortable doesn't stop US soldiers, it won't stop locals either. The only real issue is cost, and I don't think the major military powers in the world can keep thinking that they'll never fight any enemy which can afford body armor for its troops in any amount for 60 years.

However, if you want to keep the tech level in the SR world in the late 80s - modern era in some respects, that's fine for your games. I'm discussing this mainly from the point of view of my games, and I guess most people's games, where technology will continue to advance, even if it happens at an extremely slow pace in some areas, comparable perhaps to the last 60 years IRL.

the russian stock number reveals some more info with a quick google search
http://club.guns.ru/wwwboard/message/eng/1621.html

7N21 is a 79gr. bullet traveling at 1500fps
looks like about +P pressure since CorBon reports having a 9mm load of 90gr. at 1500fps.

as for 7N31 (65 grains @ 1970 fps) He doesn't mention it but i don't see how those ballistics are possible without lightening the bullet a lot. Sounds like +P+ to me and the 7N31 load might be where the aluminum part comes into play.
"aka called 9mm PBP. PBP ammo can penetrate 8mm plate of mild steel at 20 meters, or any Class III bulletproof vest at the same range. "

it appears the 7N21 load was developed especially for the Yarygin PYa / MP-443 "Grach" pistol and the 7N31 load was developed especially for the GSh-18 .

Yeah, 'cause getting your jollies shooting people in the chest isn't evil enough.

Exploding in moisture is certainly possible, but it's not very reliable, and that would rule out the possibility of setting it to explode on contact or not at all. Considering the rate of advancement going on in materials technology, it wouldn't surprise me if there was stuff around that fulfilled the criteria I set above.