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otomik
QUOTE
And, Entropy, there is no way 30 or even 40 rounds will ever fit in something with conceal 6. That was pure retarded game design, plain and simple. Light Pistols, which do that same damage, have nowhere near the same capacity.
some light pistols like the CZ-120 (which looks similar to the forementioned CZ-52) have a high concealablility and high-capacity. It's possible but i could imagine the CZ-120 firing the 5.45x18mm Round (case diameter about the same as .25ACP) and put it in a double stack mag, that could make the 18 round count possible. Other machine pistols might fire the 5.45x18mm (see also Drotik machine pistol) or the 4.6mmHK or 5.7mmFN (which have a case diameter of about .30) and use one of those rare 4-column mags like the type used in the Sites Spectre. I'm just saying it might be possible, but more generally what your saying is correct.

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg21-e.htm
http://www.cpu.lu/handguns/database/Handgu...uns/PSM/psm.htm
Raygun
QUOTE (Arethusa)
That's the hing, though: a lot of people dislike the USPs (and especially the Tacticals/Mk. 23s) because of the girth of grip, which can make it uncomfortable or unpleasant for a lot of people and unmanagable for a few.  And that's only 12 rounds.  15 in a Predator?  That's just silly.

I used to own an HK USP, which held 13 rounds of .40 S&W at max magazine capacity (or at least, it would have if there were no AWB at the time). The circumference of the grip wasn't uncomfortable to me at all. Shooting it, however, tended to be very uncomfortable after a while due to the fact that the gun did recoil pretty well due to its relatively light weight, and the fact that the surfaces molded into the frontstrap and backstrap were unnecessarily sharp. After about 200 rounds, my hand would be raw. Conversely, I could shoot my 1911 all day long if I wanted to. It was heavier and less abrasive, but the grip circumference was about the same. I've shot USP .45's as well, and from what I remember, they're not any bigger around than the .40's.

Personally, I figure that the baseline Ares Predator is a 10mm Auto. Considering that, a 15 round magazine is really not that much of a problem. The Glock 20 has a 15 round magazine. Sure, smaller people aren't going to get along with it all that well, but most average-sized men won't have too much of a problem with something like that.

Para Ordnance, Springfield Armory, STI, Kimber, Caspian and a few other companies make double-stack 1911s that hold 14 rounds of .45 ACP. That's a pretty beefy grip, especially on the metal frames, like the Para Ord and Springfields.

QUOTE
As for machine pistols, well, there's no getting around the fact that those capacities are quit simply absurd.

And some aren't more realistic that most people would think. For example, a real SMG like the Bizon carries 64 rounds of 9x18mm in a helical feed magazine. Calico did make 100 round helical feed magazine in 9mm once upon a time.

QUOTE
In fact, it entirely defeats the purpose of a machine pistol to begin with. If you want 30 pistol rounds flying on full auto, get an SMG; it'll do a better job in every respect.

Except for concealability, anyway. Machine pistols are pretty goofy as a concept, but of the limited uses they do have, they can be pretty handy. A 30 round magazine really isn't necessary.

CZ52 report in progress...
Arethusa
QUOTE (Raygun)
I used to own an HK USP, which held 13 rounds of .40 S&W at max magazine capacity (or at least, it would have if there were no AWB at the time). The circumference of the grip wasn't uncomfortable to me at all. Shooting it, however, tended to be very uncomfortable after a while due to the fact that the gun did recoil pretty well due to its relatively light weight, and the fact that the surfaces molded into the frontstrap and backstrap were unnecessarily sharp. After about 200 rounds, my hand would be raw. Conversely, I could shoot my 1911 all day long if I wanted to. It was heavier and less abrasive, but the grip circumference was about the same. I've shot USP .45's as well, and from what I remember, they're not any bigger around than the .40's.

Personally, I figure that the baseline Ares Predator is a 10mm Auto. Considering that, a 15 round magazine is really not that much of a problem. The Glock 20 has a 15 round magazine. Sure, smaller people aren't going to get along with it all that well, but most average-sized men won't have too much of a problem with something like that.

Para Ordnance, Springfield Armory, STI, Kimber, Caspian and a few other companies make double-stack 1911s that hold 14 rounds of .45 ACP. That's a pretty beefy grip, especially on the metal frames, like the Para Ord and Springfields.

Personally, I've never touched a USP, so I can't vouch for this. And I'm not saying that everyone finds them to be ungainly, certainly— just that they're supposedly uncomfortably wide for some people. Pistols like the Para Ord P14-45 take this an order of magnitude further. Is the 15 round Predator completely unbelievable? No, obviously not, as it's more or less been done. It's still a bit much. I would've found it much more acceptable in terms of both stylistic elements and technical believability if the most common handgun in the world had a 12 round mag.

QUOTE (Raygun)
And some aren't more realistic that most people would think. For example, a real SMG like the Bizon carries 64 rounds of 9x18mm in a helical feed magazine. Calico did make 100 round helical feed magazine in 9mm once upon a time.

There's no way in hell you'll fit a helical feed on anything above conceal 4, though. And, besides, Bizons, Calicos, and the more recent PP-90M1 (as it appears that the Russians are the only ones with any interest in helical feeds, these days) are SMGs in functionality, not machine pistols (at least, using the term to refer to weapons like the Glock 18 and Beretta 93R, anyway).

QUOTE (Raygun)
Except for concealability, anyway. Machine pistols are pretty goofy as a concept, but of the limited uses they do have, they can be pretty handy. A 30 round magazine really isn't necessary.

My point was just that once you load that 31 round mag, you've removed the one advantage that pistol has over a submachinegun.
Snow_Fox
QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
It's not like you are going to have to fight off hordes of mongliods with your sidearm.

Mongolians, mongoloids is something different.
Snow_Fox
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
QUOTE (otomik @ Jun 8 2004, 11:50 PM)
QUOTE
I've had more than 1 character use a 1911. 9M, SA, 7 round magazine. Basically like a crappy predator. But 1911s are inherently so cool that you gotta use them.
really? i've never had fights last long enough that magazine capacity has mattered. IMHO most of the SR pistols are too high in capacity.

Well, that's the thing. It's no fun if you never have to reload. The 1911 gives you an excuse to do super panache reload...The real reason that in SR you don't go through ammo fast enough is because the game lets you be unrealistically precise with the amount of ammo that you deposit here and there. .


I think most modern automatics have a spring loaded ejection for a clip. I just push a button on my baretta and the spent clip flies out.


In our game, unless you call where you are shooting "I got right" "I'm left" the GM rolls randomly who you are aiming at in a fight, for example 4 guards are running towards you down the hall, you all say "I start shooting" unless we call it, it could be that we are waisting time forcusing on the same targetsd. After 6 of us all, by dumb luck, targeted the smae poor slob and none of his buddies, we started working out codes to avoid that mess again- once we stopped laughing.
Raygun
QUOTE (Arethusa)
Is the 15 round Predator completely unbelievable?  No, obviously not, as it's more or less been done.  It's still a bit much.  I would've found it much more acceptable in terms of both stylistic elements and technical believability if the most common handgun in the world had a 12 round mag.

In my estimation, if you were to chamber the gun in say, .45 Super, you probably would have a 12-13 round Ares Predator. For example, the .45 ACP Glock 21, which uses the same grip frame as the 10mm Glock 20, has a 13 round magazine capacity. I think it's pretty safe to assume that the Glock is one of the "most popular" handguns out there today, with the 21 being one of the more popular models.

As far as we know, the Ares Predator may not be the most common handgun in the world. It may be the most common for shadowrunners, but there are other common handguns in the game that are certainly smaller than a 15 round 10mm hangun. What I see about the Ares Predator's popularity could very easily be interpreted as marketing blurbs. "The premier heavy pistol" is just an opinion-based comment. The rest would be totally up to your GM.

QUOTE
There's no way in hell you'll fit a helical feed on anything above conceal 4, though.

I agree. So is it the capacity that's fucked, or the conceal rating? You decide.

QUOTE
And, besides, Bizons, Calicos, and the more recent PP-90M1 (as it appears that the Russians are the only ones with any interest in helical feeds, these days) are SMGs in functionality, not machine pistols (at least, using the term to refer to weapons like the Glock 18 and Beretta 93R, anyway).

That's true. For some reason, I thought your comment was referring to SMGs. My bad. 26 rounds for the Beretta 200ST at Conceal 4 isn't bad, but a lot of the other machine pistols, especially those released since 3rd Edition, do get rather rediculous. You're right.

QUOTE
My point was just that once you load that 31 round mag, you've removed the one advantage that pistol has over a submachinegun.

That's why you don't use it until the shit has already hit the fan. A flush-fitting magazine would work just fine for carry. If it turns out that you need the lead hose, you whip out the big mag. There's no reason to carry a machine pistol loaded with a huge magazine. Ever. You said yourself, an SMG will do that job better in every respect.
BitBasher
Just for the record, I own a USP-40 and I can (and have) put 300 rounds through it in one sitting and experienced no discomfort whatsoever. I was not shooting low velocity rounds, I was using a bunch of boxes of Speer Gold Dot I had given to me by buddies at work. Those put out 165 grains @1150fps, which isn't really heavy recoil but it's certainly not incredibly light.

My only point here that experiences like that are always relative. I find that grip very confortable.
Raygun
Okay, the CZ52...

First off, let me preface this by saying that we've had some rather sloppy weather here the last week or so (as tends to happen around this time of year in Montana), so that has precluded me from doing any shooting yet. It rained pretty good yesterday and the places I tend to go shooting are far off from the city, on lonely gravel and dirt roads that don't tend to handle rain all that well. While I do have a 4x4 truck, it's really not worth getting stuck in the middle of nowhere to shoot a few boxes of ammo. Bummer, but hopefully I'll be able get some trigger time soon, probably next week. This weekend's forecast isn't looking too good. Anyway...

The gun arrived from J&G well oiled and cosmolened, in a simple cardboard box, with a tan leather flap holster and one magazine. I've heard some horror stories about firing pins breaking, so I ordered a spare, just in case. The ammunition was sent separately, consisting of five fifty-round boxes of Sellier & Bellot 85 grain FMJ.

As for the gun, "very good plus" condition would be a pretty fair assessment, in my mind. The gun is blued with very slight wear evident on the left side of the slide, near the muzzle (where the round top meets the flat side), and on the safety lever. Those are the only places that show any finish wear. There are some peen marks around the extractor pin hole on top of the slide where it looks as if a frustrated armorer went to town after replacing an extractor spring. There are also peen marks on the takedown latch/hold open pin where the pin was pounded through the frame for full dissassembly.

Barrel, slide and frame serial numbers match. This one has the "crossed swords 54" mark on the right side of the frame, presumably meaning that the pistol was manufactured in 1954. It also has the "VOZ" marking, meaning that the pistol has been refurbished. Next to it are two more marks, "78" and below that "85", meaning that the pistol was serviced twice, in 1978 and again in 1985. The left side of the frame has the "rid" mark behind the serial number, meaning that the pistol was in fact manufactured for a military contract rather than for commercial sale. There is also a "Z" mark on the trigger guard where it meets the frame, apparently meaning that a new safety has been installed which prevents a "decocking discharge". More on that in a minute. The barrel has the "circle T" test marking, indicating that the barrel was tested for accuracy. The sight rib of the slide has the serial number markings just ahead of the rear sight. There are no evident peen marks on the sight rib. Some say this was done after the rebuild process to represent accuracy testing, others say it was done for metal hardness testing. Regardless, this one doesn't have any. The right side flat of the slide is laser-engraved "CZ52 7.62 TOK CZECH, C.A.I. Georgia VT" meaning that the pistol was imported into the US by Century Arms International. There is only one marking I have yet to find a meaning for. It is on the right side of the frame, a circle enclosing "C3", just behind the takedown latch/hold open pin. In short, it looks almost exactly like the pistol in the fifth picture down on this page, though none of the pistols pictured there show my mysterious mark.

The grips are of some "fiberlite" type material, and have seen better days. They are marred and beaten, but serviceable. However, I think I will be buying a new set of grips from Hogue ASAP. Either that, or I'll make some myself. After a serious cleaning, the barrel looks pretty good. Absolutely no pitting or throat erosion, though the edges of the lands are rounded off, showing that the pistol has seen a bit of use. Still, better than expected. Aside from a small drop ding on the left side of the rear sight, the slide is in perfect condition. The sights are sharp, and not as bad as I'd expected. Better than the sights on my vintage 1945 GI 1911A1, but that's not saying much. I believe I will be looking into having the slide milled for a set of Novak or MMC sights. The frame also looks good, though the frame-to-slide fit is a little sloppy. Not that it matters much, because the slide and barrel lock together absolutely rock solid. Interestingly, the entire pistol is finished in blue, but the hold open lever is gray parkerized. The magazine is also in decent shape. It is also gray parkerized. The base plate has obviously seen some use, as it is necessary to use as a tool to remove the barrel from the slide. Overall, I'd say the pistol looks to be in very good condition for something that cost me only $99.95.

Functionality. The first thing I did, even before I cleaned the pistol, was to do the "pencil test". The idea here is to check the decocking function to make sure the gun doesn't fire when the decocker is used. Unfortunately, I couldn't find a pen or pencil that would fit down the barrel, so I used a spare piece of 3/16" steel rod I bought to replace a drum pedal hinge. Cocked the hammer, slid the rod down the barrel, pointed skyward and decocked. Nothing. Tried it again. Nothing. Good. Cocked the hammer again, pulled the trigger and the rod went flying about five feet in the air. Good! Tried the decocker one more time for good measure, nothing. The decocker works as it should.

I then grabbed my tool kit and geared up for a severe deep clean. The gun was literally wet to the touch, being stored in oil and cosmolene for God-knows-how-long. Field stripping is pretty easy. You pull the take down latch down and the slide creeps forward about 1/16 inch. Then you simply pull the slide up away from the frame. The tricky part is getting the barrel out. There's a notch cut into the bottom of the roller cam into which you place the magazine's baseplate. You the push toward the muzzle, which pushes the roller cam forward so that the rollers disengage the slots in the slide. you keep pushing the barrel forward about an inch, then lift the barrel out of the slide. At this point, the barrel is under pressure from the recoil spring, so you have to gently ease the barrel back out of the slide, making sure not to lose your grip or the barrel will take flight. I got the barrel out and looked down the bore, which was filled with grease a gunk. I then examined the rollers, each of which appeared to be of different make as the center holes were of different diameters. They were both perfectly concentric, however. After cleaning up the barrel, it looked pretty good. I used the magazine to take the grip retainer clip off, the took the grips off and cleaned away. At this point I decided to check the firing pin to see what kind of shape it was in. I pressed the firing pin safety in with my thumb, then with the other hand, used the new firing pin to push the old one back out. I then had to use a pair of needle nose pliers to pull the firing pin out, all the while pressing the firing pin safety in. The pin came out without any problems. I cleaned it up and examined it, and it looked exactly like the new "steel" firing pin I ordered. No damage at all, perfectly fine. I decided to replace it with the new pin in order to make sure that the new pin worked. I pressed the safety in again, then slid the new pin in. Like a glove. I reassembled the pistol, then did the decocker test again. Aces. I then weighed the trigger pull, which seemed very heavy and stiff. The trigger breaks at 8 pounds (ack!), with about 1/8" of take up, a small amount of creep (less than 1/16"), and zero overtravel. Might have to get one of those competition firing pin kits from makarov.com to drop that horrendous pull weight, though.

Upon testing, I found that the slide does lock open on an empty magazine. However, there is no thumb lever on the hold open to release the slide back into battery. You have to do the old "pull and release". I had to wonder why they didn't make the hold open catch thumb-operable. It would be very easy to do so. In fact, I found that there's an aftermarket part made for this, which I will probably have to get. The magazine catch is the European heel release type, which is IMHO, extremely stupid, but it works. The geometry of the gun makes the hammer very, very difficult to cock one-handed. There's also no way to rack the slide one-handed, either (as there is with the 1911 and many other guns). So if one of your hands were to somehow be disabled, the pistol would be nigh impossible to reload. Last but not least, ergonomics were the last thing on anyone's mind when designing this gun. The grip frame is pretty deep in order to accomodate the 7.62x25mm cartridge. The part of backstrap that meets the web of your hand is very low in relation to the trigger, which seems very awkward, and I wonder what effect this will have when I start shooting. The front strap is also very short and I am barely able to get all three fingers onto the frame.

Even so, I'm not planning on getting shot at any time soon, so the gun should suffice for the purposes of fun.

In our next article, shooting!
Raygun
QUOTE (BitBasher)
Just for the record, I own a USP-40 and I can (and have) put 300 rounds through it in one sitting and experienced no discomfort whatsoever.

<snip>

My only point here that experiences like that are always relative. I find that grip very confortable.

True. I had several friends use that gun in the time that I had it. Some complained, others didn't. It didn't seem to bother anyone unless they put a lot of rounds through it at once, but it certain did eat up my hand more than once. So much so that it stung to put it under water after a few particularly long sessions. Haven't had that problem with any other gun. It was an awesome piece otherwise.
BitBasher
Yes, I have had a female friend that tried to shoot it and she said the grip was too wide. She ended up controlling recoil very poorly. I like it, although I woudl admint i would like a nice grip or sleeve for it formed to my hand, just for ergonomics.

I'm planning on buying the USP-40 compact soon, as I love the gun but for the purposes of my CCW it's about as concealable as a small bus.
Entropy Kid
The Conceal of 4 for the Beretta 200ST is most likely because it specifies an "extended clip" and a detachable stock, otherwise it'd probably have the same Conceal as the others.

About their strange numbers- My take on it is that things are balanced numerically, but not logically. A tripod has a higher Availablility than an ultrasound sight since it's a dreaded "recoil compensator." The Taurus Multi-6 becomes a single shot revolver just for putting "heavy pistol" bullets into it (what if you load alternating LP/HP bullets?). Then there's the Damage Code of SMGs and assault rifles.

The numbers work fine in their own universe (most people use them), but don't make sense for those who know better. People have posted about SR computers and encryption, but I don't know enough about how computers really work and I know nothing about crypto, so those rules don't stand out as stupid- they don't operate counter to what I know (or don't know in this case).
###

If someone went through the trouble of making a smartlink able to eject the magazine, then I don't see why someone wouldn't allow it to fire the weapon. They're both mechanical operations. Trigger pull is one of the potential sources of inaccuracy when shooting. It also allows a semi-automatic weapon to fire at its physical limit rather than having to worry about how fast someone can move their finger and not jerk the gun off target (ignoring recoil here).
###

All models of Ares Predator should have a Conceal of 5. I used to think it was the ammo capacity, but then I saw the Colt Manhunter (an error?). I thought it was the smartlink, but the Savalette Guardian has one too and there's no reference to an internal smartlink reducing Conceal.
Snow_Fox
Raygun, that run down on the gun shows why you're our resident expert, but all i could think is it was like a homicidal version of "antiques road show."
Crusher Bob
QUOTE (Snow_Fox)
QUOTE (Crusher Bob @ Jun 10 2004, 12:52 AM)
It's not like you are going to have to fight off hordes of mongliods with your sidearm.

Mongolians, mongoloids is something different.

Nope I was talking about mongloids... The sort os 'half men' from the old Buck Rogers TV show, back when the 'yellow peril' was the evil of the day.
Phaeton
QUOTE (Snow_Fox)
Raygun, that run down on the gun shows why you're our resident expert, but all i could think is it was like a homicidal version of "antiques road show."

rotfl.gif
mcb
http://www.army.lt/guns/gallery/G08.jpg

There was some mention above about 30 round mags in a handguns and conceivability. The Grendel P30 in the above picture has and 30 rd magazine that fits flush with the bottom of the grip. The pistol is only chambered in 22WMR but if made into a machine pistol you could certainly lay down some decent cover fire. The 22 WMR in a pistol barks pretty loud as it is really loaded for longer barreled rifles but it still generate almost 38 special muzzle energies and would be a very concealable pistol.

mcb
Raygun
Well, it certainly qualifies for the list of top five ugliest guns in existence. smile.gif

A pistol chambered for a slightly more effective caliber (no joke), such as the 5.7x28mm or 4.6x30mm should also be able to meet a very high capacity without a large extension past the grip. Otomik mentioned that at the top of the page. For example, the FN Five-seveN has a 20 round capacity with a flush magazine.

QUOTE (Snow_Fox)
Raygun, that run down on the gun shows why you're our resident expert, but all i could think is it was like a homicidal version of "antiques road show."

Did it really look that bad? wink.gif
Siege
Ent

I always figured the Ares Predator was designed to be bigger than average and thus, marginally scarier looking than the more practical Colt Manhunter.

Although it's safe to assume there isn't a uniform standard applied to all weapons in SR. grinbig.gif

-Siege
Raygun
Shooting the CZ52

Well, the weather cleared up long enough for me to get out and shoot the CZ52 today. I didn't really do any accuracy testing, just wanted to get a feel for the thing, pitting it up against my trusty 1911 to see how they compare.

I took two boxes (100 rounds) of the Sellier & Bellot 85 grain FMJ (advertised at 1647 fps) for the CZ52. I took 50 rounds of Magtech 230 grain FMJ for the 1911. Last Friday I bought a Gun Mate ambidextrous hip holster for the CZ52, as the flap holster shipped with it is pretty much useless. The CZ52 fits this holster just about perfectly, and its magazine fits in the spare pocket just as well. Ten bucks well spent, I say.

I guess I'll get the obvious out of the way. The two guns might as well come from two different planets. Opposite sides of the ballistic spectrum, different types of operation, different manual of arms, different ergonomics... I don't know if it would be possible to make two more different guns, at least, two that were designed for the same purpose.

I started out by searching for a place to shoot that wasn't going to be A) too muddy to get to, and B) too far from town I case I did get stuck. Fortunately, the Missouri River Shooter's Association is setting up a new sports shooting complex about five miles north of Great Falls, so I decided to go check it out. Unfortunately, they've only gotten to the "digging pits" stage, which means that there was not any formal place to shoot, nor was anyone out there actually working on it. I decided to drive out past the place and look for a promising, secluded site behind a butte. Didn't take too long to find one, though I did have to put the truck in 4WD and scale a pretty decent grade to get to it. No prob, really.

Being as this was entirely informal, I decided to start by setting up a piece of cardboard against a fence post and shoot at it until I got bored. I loaded up the CZ52 and just started hammering away.

First impressions: The sights are okay, not the best I've used, but they are easier to pick up than those on my GI M1911A1. The 1911 feels much better in my hand. I suppose I'm biased, but I honestly can't think of why anyone would argue otherwise. After firing the CZ52 I did find myself pointing the 1911 high, as its bore-to-grip angle is more obtuse than that of the CZ52.

It's loud.

The trigger is, as expected, a liability in terms of speed and accuracy. 8 pounds is just way too much, pulling groups way apart in rapid fire. Where I can generally keep double taps within about 8 inches of each other at 7 yards with the 1911, I'd be really hard-pressed pull that off with the CZ52 the way it is. Still, slow fire is accurate enough for union work, especially at long range. More on that in a minute.

Recoil feels comparable to a 125 grain .357 Magnum load from a 4" revolver, maybe a little less. In other words, while it doesn't recoil with a lot of energy, it does do it pretty fast, which makes it feel like it's recoiling with more energy because you have less time to soak it in. Also, recoil seems to come straight back into your hand, with relatively little muzzle flip, I'm guessing because the barrel does not have to swivel down to unlock. Berettas tend to do this as well. If the trigger wasn't so friggin' heavy, this pistol would kick ass in rapid fire. The low arch of the backstap against the web of my hand did not cause the problems I thought it might, but it definitely feels weird being there.

It's loud.

I can't fucking stand the heel magazine catch on this gun. It is held closed by pressure from the mainspring (the spring that pushes the hammer forward when you pull the trigger) and it doesn't cam to an "open" position like other pistols with this type of mag release. Its rest position is "locked", which makes mag changes really difficult to do in any timely fashion. As if that didn't suck enough, when the slide locks back, there's almost no pressure against the magazine spring, meaning that when you hold the stupid little mag catch open, the mag will not eject itself (drop free). You have to yank it out of the gun while holding the catch open. Stupid. Not a lot of engineering brainpower put into that little function. This, to me, was the worst thing about the gun.

Being left-handed, the safety is difficult to operate, but that's just the way it is with any gun that doesn't have an ambidextrous safety lever. I'll just have to take my southpaw and *sniffle* cope. Speaking of the safety lever, the decocker works as it should. Tried it several times, nary a discharge. I still don't like the idea of using it, as a lot of articles I've read suggest that it's possible that the thing could fail.

Have I mentioned that it's loud? Not a .44 Mag by any means, but a bit more than I was expecting. About like a 4" .357 Mag, again. Definitely no question that you're shooting it. You do get a nice, solid air pressure thwack to the face and chest. I'm sure it throws off a decent fireball at night. Sure to scare off the hardest of hard gangstas. Fun fun.

After I got bored shooting at cardboard, I decided to go for some longer range targets, namely a good-sized dirt clod at about 25m (which was divided into small, unworthy chunks in three shots), a big rock at about 50m, and a much bigger rock up the hill at I would guess somewhere between 80 and 100m. Shooting the CZ52 at long range is pretty fun. As you might guess, having a fast muzzle velocity for a handgun, it shoots really flat, and I found it to be dead-on at about 50m, smacking that rock without much effort, hitting 14 of 16. Using the hood of my truck as a rest, I decided to take on a bigger rock about four times as big and twice as far away and about 100 feet up the butte. After spending about four rounds to adjust for elevation, I repeatedly smacked the rock over and over. I'm not sure how many times I reloaded (I would guess four times), nor am I sure of my success rate. It was so fun to be able to do it that easily with a pistol that I didn't keep track, but I'm sure I hit at 75% or better. This is something that would be very difficult to do with a 1911, as the slow, fat .45 bullet drops so quickly.

The CZ52 did not malfunction once. It ate all 100 rounds without so much as a hiccup. Of course, it is a well-used pistol, so that shouldn't be too suprising, but you never quite know what to expect with these surplus deals. It's better than I could expect from my 1911, which tends to three-point jam on a semi-regular basis when I use one Colt magazine I have. No problems with my modified Colt mag or the Kimber mags.

After about an hour of shooting, I packed up and went home, satisfied that this CZ52 was a good buy. About the only things that bother me are the mag catch, the lack of ammuniton availability (which isn't a big problem if you don't mind mail-ordering), and the too-low grip (which is easy to forget about). New grips would be nice, but that's just an aesthetic thing. A set of Novak sights would also be nice, but the stock sights work well enough for me to put that off for a while.

I found the gun very easy to clean. Either the S&B ammo shoots pretty clean, or the gun just doesn't get that dirty. I did, however, find some brass shavings on the bottom of the slide that had me concerned. I couldn't figure out how they got there. The breech face looked good, the extractor looked good, the barrel looked good, the magazine looked good... The only thing I could figure was that it came from the bullets, which have brass-coated jackets. We'll have to see.

That's my story. Generally, I think the CZ52 was worth every penny. Let's hope it lasts.
Dash Panther
Raygun, your website was cited...
Soldiers for the Truth
Snow_Fox
QUOTE (Raygun)
Well, it certainly qualifies for the list of top five ugliest guns in existence. smile.gif

A pistol chambered for a slightly more effective caliber (no joke), such as the 5.7x28mm or 4.6x30mm should also be able to meet a very high capacity without a large extension past the grip. Otomik mentioned that at the top of the page. For example, the FN Five-seveN has a 20 round capacity with a flush magazine.

QUOTE (Snow_Fox)
Raygun, that run down on the gun shows why you're our resident expert, but all i could think is it was like a homicidal version of "antiques road show."

Did it really look that bad? wink.gif

Not bad, but just the expert run down of marks made me think of that show.

So basically it's loud with a smooth action and good accuracy. The noise is probably because of the short barrel with the kick which gives the accuracy.

I know what you mean about prefering the feel. I know my Webley's an antique by comparrison, but the slimmer grip feels better in my hand than the wider handled barretta.

So you're a south paw too? Then you know the joys of wqorking bolt action rifles! and understand firing a musket right handed, left handed you burn your hair.
otomik
i'm a lefty too, which kind of leads me to prefer double action pistols. surprises me that raygun as a lefty would prefer cocked and locked (not many pistols have ambi C&L safeties).

on another note:
went to a gunshow today and was fascinated by the TZ-99/CZ-99 9mm, a wonderful copy/refinement of the SIG-226, can't wait till Charles Daly imports them (Daly ZDA). Saw plenty of CZ-52s around $150 but I'm holding out for a unissued Helwan 9mm now (i'm a beretta fan and it will probably make a better carry gun).
Raygun
QUOTE (Snow_Fox)
So basically it's loud with a smooth action and good accuracy. The noise is probably because of the short barrel with the kick which gives the accuracy.

Well, the barrel is only a quarter of an inch shorter than my 1911, and the CZ52 is noticeably much louder. The most probable cause would be that this Czech load of the 7.62x25mm is relatively high pressure, I'm guessing up around 32-35k psi, whereas the .45 ACP is loaded to around 16-22k psi.

How accurate it is, mechanically speaking, I have no idea yet. I would be suprised if it did better than 4" at 25 yards. It is relatively easy to hit things that are far away, but that heavy-ass trigger is an injustice.

QUOTE
So you're a south paw too? Then you know the joys of wqorking bolt action rifles!

Oh yes. I'll be buying my first left-handed bolt action before hunting season this year. I don't have anything strong enough to reliably knock over an elk (at least, not anything I'd want to taker hunting), and what I use for deer and pronghorn is an automatic.

QUOTE (otomik)
i'm a lefty too, which kind of leads me to prefer double action pistols. surprises me that raygun as a lefty would prefer cocked and locked (not many pistols have ambi C&L safeties).

Just used to it. I grew up with a 1911 and put an ambidextrous safety on it a long time ago. Double actions work too, but I'm just so used to snapping off a safety when drawing that I often find myself doing the motion whether I need to or not. So it just feels a little strange not to have a cocked and locked gun. Other handguns come and go, but I've always had at least one 1911.
Entropy Kid
As far as I know, Česká zbrojovka only makes two non-competition pistols that allow magazines to fall, the CZ 75B SA and CZ 85 Combat. There's instructions here on bending the magazine brake so it doesn't keep it in. I don't know how the innards of the CZ 52 differ from the modern CZs, so this might not apply. There's a CZ 52 section on the same forum. I know there were threads on the trigger pull, but can't comment on how useful they are.

I haven't been shooting in over a year and all this gun talk is making me crazy. That's what I get for living in an area with no place to shoot and no car to get anywhere. I'll be out of here in a week, and hopefully I can put some rounds down range.

I know I have an SR comment somewhere...oh yeah. At the risk of sounding Arethusian (@A nyahnyah.gif ) the Ares Predator having a 4 Conceal because it looks scarier is stupid, dumb, and a bit idiotic. I can see that it's balanced by cost (costs 900 nuyen.gif for a smartlinked Manhunter), but it's still stupid considering that Ares is supposed to be some great arms manufacturer. I didn't think shitting out Saturday night specials was something they did. A Pred-2 is basically that (glorified), with a cost of 275 nuyen.gif after St. Index. Of course, my perception about Ares could be wrong, in which case, nevermind.
Siege
That's ok Entropy -- I don't take it personally. grinbig.gif

-Siege
mcb
QUOTE (Raygun)
QUOTE
So you're a south paw too? Then you know the joys of wqorking bolt action rifles!

Oh yes. I'll be buying my first left-handed bolt action before hunting season this year. I don't have anything strong enough to reliably knock over an elk (at least, not anything I'd want to taker hunting), and what I use for deer and pronghorn is an automatic.

This is way off topic but I would be curious what your considering for an Elk cartridge. I am going to be hunting Elk trip this fall during Colorado's second rifle season. In the process of researching a good rifle cartridge on several big game hunting forums on the Internet I suggested using a 270 Win on Elk and the flame wars ensued (bring the asbestos underwear). I was never aware that the 270 Win was such a controversial big game cartridge. In the end I did end settling on the 270 Win in a pre 64 Winchester Model 70. My little brother is also a southpaw and a big fan of the 7mm's especial 7mm RUM. He has a Remington 700 LLS left handed in 7mm RUM

Just curious
mcb
Raygun
I'm mulling over the choice between .30-06 and .300 Win Mag. The .30-06 has worked well enough for about 98 years thus far, for just about every kind of big game walking the Earth. I've used it on elk before, I just haven't had a left-handed rifle chambered for it. I'd like to have a rifle that can do all local big game well, and the .30-06 fits that bill nicely. With the .300 Win Mag, I'd have to pretty much dedicate the rifle for Elk use, which is an idea I'm not particularly fond of. In either case, I plan on using Remington's 180 grain Swift Scirroco load for elk this year.

A .270 should work fine as well, using a 150 grain load.

The ultra mags, IMO, are kind of silly. They shoot pretty flat for a long way, but that kind of defeats the purpose of hunting, I think. The object should be to get as close as possible. That pretty much makes the ultra mags superfluous about 98% of the time. As long as you can get within about three hundred meters and you are confident of a solid hit, .30-06 or 270 should work just fine.

I'm thinking Remington 700 BDL in .30-06 with a Nikon Monarch UCC 3-9x40, if I can swing it.
mcb
I agree with your choice of cartridges, of the 8 guys going my hunt 4 will be carrying 30-06, one with a 300 Win Mag, 2 with 7mm Rem Mag and me with my lowly 270 Win. I see a lot of guy on some of the internet forums that say 30-06 is a bare min and then they start talking about cannons like 300 RUM and 375 H&H.

I was thinking of going with a 150 grain bullets but after trying several different boxes of ammo at the range I settled on Federal’s 140 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw. Its tough to argue with 5/8 inch 3-shot groups at 100 yds from a nearly 50 year old rifle. From what I have read the TBBC is one tough bullet. I did some penetration tests, firing one through a gallon juice jug full of water into a clay embankment from about 90 yds. I then dug up the bullet. It had holed the jug leaving it fairly in tack (exit hole slightly larger then the inlet hole) and then penetrated about 24 inches of clay. I washed off the clay and weight the bullet and it had retained about 93% of the original mass and was perfectly mushroomed with all the petals intact. I was pleased.

I ended up putting Leupold 3-9X40 Vari-X II on my 270. I would have like a Vari-X III but I still have to have some money left to get some other gear.

My brother bough that 700 LSS put nine rounds though it and turn around took the scope back off it and sent it out to have Answer’s Recoil system put on it. He’s a big boy going about 235 lbs and is no recoil pansy but he said it made tears come to his eyes shooting it over sand bags. With the Answers Recoil system, which include a muzzle brake and hydraulic recoil damper mounted under the recoil pad my 135lb wife can shoot it comfortably.

Good luck on your hunt
mcb
Raygun
QUOTE (mcb)
I see a lot of guy on some of the internet forums that say 30-06 is a bare min and then they start talking about cannons like 300 RUM and 375 H&H.

Those guys need to learn how to shoot. You don't need that much juice for anything on this continent.

QUOTE
I was thinking of going with a 150 grain bullets but after trying several different boxes of ammo at the range I settled on Federal’s 140 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw.  Its tough to argue with 5/8 inch 3-shot groups at 100 yds from a nearly 50 year old rifle.

Federal has a 150 grain Sierra Gameking load as well. If you haven't tried it yet, I would suggest you do. I've had nothing but good luck with Gamekings (I use the 100 grain in .243 for deer and pronghorn). Excellent BC (.483), flat shooting for a soft point. Depending on your rifling twist, the longer bullet might open up your groups a bit, but if you're still getting within 1 MOA it should be fine for your purposes. I'd go with as much bullet weight as you can get in that caliber.

QUOTE
I ended up putting Leupold 3-9X40 Vari-X II on my 270.  I would have like a Vari-X III but I still have to have some money left to get some other gear.

That's plenty of scope. Just as good as the Nikon I want. You're doing fine there. Not a whole lot of reason to spend the extra $150+ for a VX3, IMO.

QUOTE
Good luck on your hunt
mcb

You too. smile.gif
Snow_Fox
QUOTE (Raygun)
QUOTE (mcb)
I see a lot of guy on some of the internet forums that say 30-06 is a bare min and then they start talking about cannons like 300 RUM and 375 H&H.

Those guys need to learn how to shoot. You don't need that much juice for anything on this continent.

Nonsense, I'd need that at least for the Juggernaut, Piasma or snow moose.
otomik
QUOTE
the lack of ammuniton availability (which isn't a big problem if you don't mind mail-ordering), and the too-low grip (which is easy to forget about). New grips would be nice, but that's just an aesthetic thing.
You can get new production grips and replacement 9mmPara barrels from Makarov.com. of course with that long magazine well it's just begging to be converted to 9x23mmWin by reaming the barrel a bit.

also in the news
http://www.beretta.com/frame_tabellaprodot...gmt=22&Model=92 Steel-I&descr=1
Beretta's answer to Taurus, not only does it have Cocked and Locked (w/decocker)
it also has
-Steel Frame
-Vertical 1911 style grip
-Novak Sights and other little niceties designed for competition
Raygun
QUOTE (otomik)
of course with that long magazine well it's just begging to be converted to 9x23mmWin by reaming the barrel a bit.

I put a few 9mm Paras in the CZ52 mag just to see how it would work, and there is a good quarter inch of space between the bullet and the front of the mag. Not real inspiring when you think about what recoil might to to feeding reliability. 9x23mm would work better, though. If you can find a gunsmith with a 9x23mm reamer. Makarov.com talks about barrels chambered for the 9mm Largo, which is almost identical to the 9x23mm, though lower pressure.

QUOTE
also in the news
http://www.beretta.com/frame_tabellaprodot...gmt=22&Model=92 Steel-I&descr=1
Beretta's answer to Taurus, not only does it have Cocked and Locked (w/decocker)
it also has
-Steel Frame
-Vertical 1911 style grip
-Novak Sights and other little niceties designed for competition

Cool. That's a step in the right direction. Unfortunately, like the Stock model, the Steel-I doesn't include a decocker according to the manual.

mcb: I was talking to my boss about elk hunting, and seems to like the Barnes X bullet. PMC has a 150 grain XLC @ 2700 fps load you also might want to look at.
mcb
Thanks Raygun, I have read a lot of good things about Barnes X bullets but untill you pointed out that PMC in loading them the only other company I could find loading them in factory ammo was Federal. And they only load the orginal and the triple shock in 130 grains in 270 Win. I might have to give that 150 grain bullet a try. mcb
Wounded Ronin
I wonder if .30-.06 should have a D damage code.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
I wonder if .30-.06 should have a D damage code.

Is that a joke?
Wounded Ronin
More like I'm confused. Most "sniper rifles" and "sport rifles" have a damage code of S. Only anti-vehicular stuff has a code of D.

.30-.06 is pretty powerful but it's not really anti-vehicular. So I'm not sure which it would be.
Austere Emancipator
Okay. Well, let me put it like this: the .30-06 is only barely more powerful than the .308 Winchester/7.62x51mm. At common loadings, the latter creates around 2600-2700 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle, .30-06 100-200 ft-lbs more than that.

Considering the 7S (Light Sporting) -> 9S (Medium Sporting) -> 14S (Sniper Rifle) -> 14D+ (Heavy Sniper Rifle) Damage scale of rifles in SR, you could call 7S something like a .30-30 (170gr @ 2200fps, 1830 ft-lbs) or a .243 Winchester (100gr @ 2960fps, 1945 ft-lbs). 9S would then correspond to .308/7.62x51mm, .30-06, 7.62x54mmR and other 7.62mms which hover somewhere slightly under 3000 ft-lbs. 14S would correspond to the hefty .338 - .34 Magnums, pushing 250gr bullets at about 3000fps for ~5000 ft-lbs of kinetic energy at the muzzle.

This is pretty much how Raygun does them, BTW, only he puts .243 Winchester and .30-30 at 8S instead of 7S. I use 7S here, because I wanted to use the canon Damage Codes, and don't like the idea of having something like the various hot .22s do Serious damage.

.30-06 ain't got nothing on anti-material/heavy sniping rifles. The .50 BMG creates almost 14000 ft-lbs of kinetic energy at the muzzle by getting a 660gr bullet well over 3000fps. This is well over 4 times the kinetic energy of a .30-06, with bullets nearly 4 times as heavy fired quite a bit faster.

Sniper vs Sporting rifles, one of many threads on the new forums touching upon the subject of sporting and sniping rifle calibers.
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
QUOTE (Raygun)
Calico did make 100 round helical feed magazine in 9mm once upon a time.

There's no way in hell you'll fit a helical feed on anything above conceal 4, though.


I dunno, the 50 round 9mm mag at least dosen't seem TOO bad - bulkier than your average pistol, yes, but certainly small enough to be concealable from casual inspection if you've got like a long coat on. You can probably forget about hiding it in searches, though.

Even with the 100 round mag it seems smaller than a lot of SMGs, the pistol version I mean, not the extended rifle/carbine with stock.

I just wonder about the weight. Wouldn't 50-100 rounds of 9mm be a bit hefty to carry around in your hand?


-karma
otomik
about 12 grams each 9mm cartridge (brass cased) IIRC.
of course CCI makes a cheap lightweight 115grain aluminum cased round, i haven't measured but there's a noticeable difference.
Austere Emancipator
Yep, 12 grams is the closest whole figure for an average 9x19mm cartridge. 2.2kg empty weapon + 1.2kg ammunition + 0.5kg empty helical magazine (no idea what it actually weighs, just guessing) is still under 4kg, whereas several SMGs, and certainly ARs (like the original AK-47s), weigh well over 4kg empty.

The helical magazine is very wide, which is part of why such a weapon would be rather difficult to hide inside clothing. I'd say the Calico pistol (M950) is a firm Conceal 4 in any case.
DrJest
Most of this discussion is waaaay too technical for me, so let me boil it down into simple questions to assist my game, and specifically my search for the Perfect Gun Kata Adept ™ wink.gif :

1) It is a given that most targets worth shooting at in SR will be armoured. Given that the GKA will be firing one-handed (a pistol in each hand), what round would you say reflects the best ratio of controllability to penetration?

2) What about penetration to tissue damage? And how would that affect controllability?

3) What gun would you say best complements that shooting style?

BTW, completely unrelated - the Calico (as seen, I believe, pretending to be an alien handgun in the old Dolph Lundgren schlock-scifi film Dark Angel), isn't that the one that let you tune the rate of fire from between 600 and 2000 rpm with (relative) ease? Frightening thought, even if it was limited to the .22 (which I believe the 2000rpm was, but then I know very little about guns) that's a drekload of lead to be spewing around.

EDIT: You'll probably laugh, but at the moment I've been considering the Beretta 93R. Option of SA or BF, 15 or 30 round clips, two barrel lengths - makes for a nicely customisable weapon.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (DrJest)
Calico [...], isn't that the one that let you tune the rate of fire from between 600 and 2000 rpm with (relative) ease?

Nothing I've ever read about it suggests that the end-user can change its cyclical RoF without a lot of work involved -- as much as with most other such weapons. If you want an uncontrollably high rate of fire combined with a low-powered cartridge in a small weapon, check out the MAC-11.

As for penetration, tissue damage and controllability, that's just completely up to you. There is no perfect compromise there. Most importantly, though, what rules are used in the game where this GKA is to be played? If it's completely canon, this is only a question of fluff or using the Firearms Design rules in CC.
DrJest
Well, we were looking at Raygun's site as the source for firearms, along with that firearms creation guide thingummy. But I'm also an author considering doing some writing for the genre, so some more detail than the standard fluff would be nice.
Austere Emancipator
How much better than an average RL person will this guy be able to handle recoil? How well do you personally think whatever gadgets you glue onto your guns will help diminish recoil? How much do you think firearms and ammunition technology, as well as armor technology, will advance in the next 60 years? Do you want to fire akimbo guns in burst-fire or even fully automatic modes?
lorthazar
Of course I use brandname weapons in Shadowrun. Most times I just uses the statistics of the closest applicable gun, but for a few I have had to make my own. Like the .475 Linebaugh Revolvers one of characters carries for these I had to disregard the custom gun creation rules and just use what makes sense.

Freedom Arms .475 Linebaugh Revolver
Cost: 1200 nuyen
Damage: 12S
Conceal: 6
Mode: SS
Ammo: 5(cy)
Weight: 1.5 kilos (that is what it weighs now)
Availibility: 8/2 weeks

Of course I had to give it such a high power and damage level becuase this is a pistol designed to kill bison, cattle, moose, bears, and even elephants in a single shot. It is single shot becuase of the horrendus recoil. Ammo costs are tripled becuase of the extreme power of this weapon.

Fore a ballistic comparison look Here i now it is Rayguns site but I have checked the math and he is actually being conservative.


Austere Emancipator
You do realize how completely that contradicts what you said earlier in the Vehicle Damage thread about the Ruger Super Warhawk being "a .454 Casull or .475 Linebaugh in terms of power"?

Most of the more powerful loadings for the .475 Linebaugh seem to float just below 1900 ft-lbs from an 8" barrel, with a few just above 2000 ft-lbs (this site uses an example loading that gets 1566fps out of a 385gr bullet). If you consider this to be 12S, then the Ruger Super Warhawk is more like a .41 Magnum.

Including just one weapon which is "realistically powerful" in an otherwise canon game is a bad idea to begin with, and I have to say this is even more broken than usual. Here's why:
If you consider penetration of hard materials to be as important a factor as depth of penetration in tissue for the Power of a gun, that also has the funny side effect that a 7.62x51mm would absolutely count as 14S -- so you could create a weapon that resembles the M14 on Raygun's site, except it has a Damage Code of 14S, and tell your GM that "you had to give it such a high Power and Damage Level". Or create a 5.56x45mm AR which has a DC of 11M. How about a 10G shotgun with a DC of 16D? Or, fuck it, a Barrett M82 that does 18LN?
lorthazar
Now I did contradict my self about the Ruger Super Warhawk only becuase I forgot to list that it would be light .475 and .454 loads. (btw are you really that.... never mind you aren't worth my time.) I'm sorry if that causes confusion and panty bunching.

As for a singular powerful weapon in the group. Are you kidding me? Our troll designed an Assault Cannon with bulpup, increased concealability, and shortened barrel so he could hide it. Our dwarf rigger carries a a MadMax that loads .700NE that he uses with his gyromount arm. Our Elves all carry .44 Automag SMG's. Somehow our Merc got ahold of a Ares MP3 laser. And the less I say about the Giant physical adept archer the better. I created one gun that was slightly non canon and even made it something real life. So far my bodyguard has collected a half dozen of them from enemies. The point is be realistic about what you create and what you use.
Austere Emancipator
Woah. Okay, in that kind of game, it certainly doesn't matter. I feel for your GM.

And yeah, I really am that bad at remembering stuff written to me only yesterday that I had to go back to copy/paste that quote. It wouldn't matter if it had not been an important part of your argument in the other thread. It certainly makes the short discussion that followed on how powerful the 10mm Auto is all the more amusing.
lorthazar
Actually it was all the GM's fault at first he told us how to do such things. Of course the group has calmed down a little before it ended, becuase the GM had been using the same tactics against us that we used against guards. Only my character and the troll samurai lived to retirement. By retirement I mean buying a controling interest in Beretta and SIG and merging them into an ultra high quality weapons manufacturer in my own campaign. they are expensive weapons but not out of line for 3rd Edition. Yes, the .475 linebaugh is offered but only in troll sized hand cannons.

My own campaign has it's headaches: Immortals, Pretenders, Free Spirits... but in the end i think it is worth it if the players are engaged.

BTW: I am sorry for my outburst
Austere Emancipator
And I'm sorry I was a bit of a prick.

It's true, there's nothing inherently wrong with playing an extremely high-powered game. You can have fun playing just about anything. You could always try playing some other game and make sure it stays normal-powered and then come back to playing SR, that could help keep it under control -- it's often good to get some perspective to RPing through another game system and game world. But if your group likes powergames, that's just fine.
lorthazar
We alternate quite proficently. We play GURPS Horror (the PC's are us and a dare you to powergame that), Rifts (but only classes form the main book), Mercenary 2000, Battle Tech, D&D, Rolemaster, and Toon
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