What i meant was it is good that this is not possible

2062 - On January 2, In Chicago, Illinois, UCAS, the Sears Tower appears in its old location from sunup to sundown, when it just as mysteriously vanishes. Several people who have been exploring the building are reported to have been injured or killed. (Target: Awakened Lands)

T:AL even talks about mundanes taking things from an Astral Construct. The spirit ruler must approve but it can be done. When the Construct disappears from the physical plane it leaves no trace - thus the 'has no effect on the physical world' statement. If they had no presence on the physical plane how could mundanes climb into them?

Wouldn't that involve a +2 Target Modifier to manipulate physical objects that aren't dual natured? So yes using dual-natured gloves, you could pick up a gun and start shooting at an enemy, but the target modifier would cause all sorts of problems.

page 172 of SR3
Doing acompletely mundane task while using astral perception gives a +2 target modifier to the task.

But I'd say it would apply to mundane tasks by astral beings using dual-natured objects as well. It follows the spirit of the rule.

Wow I never thought I'd actually have to quote myself

Im not talking about just moving things or weather or not the spirit would like it. Im saying two things. One even though you cannt move at astral speeds because whatever it is the glove is made of wolnt be able to withstand the friction from the air. Two whatever it is that the glove is made of should be able to withstand a couple of hundred miles an hour and that getting hit with it would be a REAL BITCH! it would probably kill any living thing with the exception of something like a great dragon.

Correct no one is disputing that.

Oy vey

Let ME get out the rulebooks.

We are in 3RD edition....lemme check again....Yup still 3rd edition. Second edition logic dosent work here because Second Edition is Ancient History .

And as long as the astral barrier isnt rooted to the ground or some other really heavy and immovable object their should be no problem moving it as long as it is light enough for you to lift with your astral stregnth

Correct about mass not having alot to do with lifting things

Actually Astral form can have mass and kinetic energy and still adhere to the laws of physics. They just caint have alot of mass. Take energy for example lets say a lightning bolt. The electrons that make up the lightning bolt have some mass and they make the transition from rest to the speed of light pretty damn quick and they dont desintegrate. Like when the lightning comes out from the cloud and hits something. Now what would happen if a lightning bolt hit you? Aside from probably killing you im willing to bet it would knock you back.

Ive always thought of astral forms as something like energy. While a physical form would burst into flames if it went at the speed of though astral forms have no problems with it.

Sorry if this is a little hard to follow its 3:30 A.M. and I seriously need to goto bed.

Chemical energy isnt the only thing that can make kinetic energy. I think but all this talk about physics is making my head hurt. I wish some physics major would clear this wole mess about mass, weight, gravity, ect... affecting if you can lift something.

I agree this is a bit munchy but thats besides the point. I was just wondering if it was possible with cannon rules.

The game data in the Corporate Security Handbook is directly contradicted by pg 161 of SR3 where it clearly stats that the auras created by living beings on the astral plane are intangible.

Shadowrun completely reworked magic when they went from 2nd to 3rd Edition. As a result sourcebooks that dealt with magic issues are completely useless.

1) Metamagic changed immensely. ( and IMO for the better )
2) I'm glad I had no Hougan players. The changeover would have been brutal.
3) Spirits can now apparently be hurt by indirect attacks like explosions. (I'm guessing that all the bugs in the Chicago nuke blast shouted "There's a tactical nuke in the hive! All true forms stop manifesting physically immediately!")
4) Nothing in shadowrun 3rd suggests that mages can cast spells over fiber-optic security cameras.
5) The entire astral beings can now pass through living things.
6) The Earth is now dual natured as an explanation why you can't astrally travel underground. ( A clever player could use that to cover their approach while doing some astral sneaking. )
7) Female Mantis spirits are no longer true form spirits with the human form power. ( This have it house ruled that all human form insect spirits , ones that maintain a completely human form and memories, are true forms with the human form power. It's just cooler. )

My best advice is to write out house rules if you want to incorporate some elements of 2nd Edition then hide the offending 2nd Edition sourcebooks involving magic. The rules and concepts within them are no longer valid and can confuse players.

SOTA: 2063

page 91
It's under the section entitled: Fiberoptic Observation Network

This is incorrect. There is no proof that a magician projecting in the astral can physically move any barrier no matter what size, shape, mass, or material. I could fill a giant soap bubble with FAB and a magician would not be able to move through it, but they may also not be able to move it.

Yes. However, we're not talking about astral constructs, we're talking FAB, which a dual-natured bacteria.

Furthermore, we're talking about moving a physical object connected to a dual-natured critter. You can attack a dual-natured critter from the astral, but this does not mean the attack is in any sense physical.

I only referenced the CSH because when you talk about FAB, someone mentions netguns and the like. Beyond that, this adds nada to the arguement because dual-natured critters are present on both the physical and the astral--we're not talking tangible auras. If you mentioned it just to prove the CSH is out-of-date, well, shit, we all knew that.

3) I'm not quoting the physics people. I have some information which would make them feel a little better, but it's rather dated.

I wasn't aware anyone was asking to play in your game. However if it makes you feel any better, on one hand I do think the idea of FAB gloves are silly. But on the other I do like the idea of an astrally projecting character moving a dual-natured being around. I see a lot of interesting stories that could come from that, not to mention giving astrally projecting magicians a few more options. As it stands, astral projection has few uses outside of reconnaissance.

Actually the rules for FAB strain-II suggest otherwise in both respects. An astrally projecting character can freely move through a cloud of FAB, and doing so creates an empty spot where the FAB isn't present because the character has displaced it. Such characters cannot employ Fast Movement because the FAB, while both dual-natured and obviously movable, is still limited by the speed of the physical plane.

Astral constructs are completely relevant, and far more relevant than many of the things you've been quoting from outdated source material. Astral constructs, clearly and without any misunderstandings, have all of the characteristics of physical objects. Mass and weight are amongst those characteristics, and deny it as much as you like, that's far more canon for 3rd Edition than anything you'll find in the Corporate Security Handbook.

Simply because astral forms can travel at mind-boggling speeds, or that huge amounts of kinetic energy don't convert from one plane to another, that doesn't mean they don't mass relative to that plane. Every purely astral form that has the ability to materilize on the physical plane carries mass over in the conversion. It certainly doesn't gain it from nowhere, so it obviously had it to begin with. It just didn't mean a whole lot on the astral plane where the laws of physics are completely different.

On a side note, the whole FAB net thing doesn't make a lot of sense, at least in 3rd Edition. An astral form could easily just disappear through the floor or wall, even Mother Earth, without any problem even if the rules did state that an astral form couldn't move or manipulate the net, which they don't. The only way such a weapon would be useful for capturing an astral form is if you used it in a warded room, and even then the character could attempt to destroy either the net or the ward to get away.

As Lilt pointed out, it certainly does. You're free to use any and all of your combat maneuvers while fighting on the astral plane, including the Throw maneuver.

On a final note, astral forms and astrally projecting magicians do have Body, Quickness, and Strength ratings. Yes, they're derived from mental attributes, but that doesn't change the fact that they still have those characteristics.