Damnit, I just re-read the paragraph on Strain-II FAB. The Dweller On The Threshold's right: The bacteria are displaced as an astral form passes through them. However, they restrict fast movement. This is insane! It's like in my example above, astrally projecting mage fast-travelling into a dual natured wall.

Bacteria are displaced: This means astral forms pass on kinetic energy to dual natured things.
Mage astralwalks into barrier: Nothing happens.
Mage fast-travels into barrier: Mage and barrier have to resist 500D.

I give up.

[Edit] About astral attributes Str, Bod, Spd: In my understanding, these aren't REAL attributes, only imaginary attributes used for game mechanics. Otherwise, you'd have the Body 1, Will 6 mage saying "Geez, I always feel so fat on the astral plane..." [/Edit]

[/edit]Fuck it. I'm tired of arguing.

The problem with something like a pair of FAB gloves is that you get all the penalties of being dual-natured and none of the perks of being fully astral.

You can't use Fast Movement while wearing them because they limit you to physical speeds, just like dual-natured beings. You can't walk through walls because they're dual-natured and exist in the physical world. Everyone could see the gloves so everyone would know you were present. You'd have to use doors and get past security just like everyone else on the physical.

The only advantage is that it would let you manipulate physical objects to some degree, basically giving you the equivalence of a Magic Hands spell using your astral Strength and Quickness. But unlike Magic Hands, you suffer all of the aforementioned problems. And of course you then have the problems of finding someone who has the know-how and ability to create such a pair of gloves, and a pair strong enough that they won't burst while being used.

EDIT: I Eat Time's assumption about the 500D damage code is right out. The magician would be forbidden from using Fast Movement. At best, he could lay some melee damage on a target, and the opponent would be able to defend just fine even if he couldn't damage the magician himself.

I see dual-nature gloves being of limited use, but having some possibilites. A pair of gloves is going to be a lot harder to spot (both human and sensor) than a whole body. Also you could get through much, much smaller portals and into tighter spaces.

However I would see the FAB having a rather short life expectancy, easily squashed by said movement. Also there are the issues with keeping them alive at all as they need nutrients fed to them. Once dead dual creatures lose their astral presence, right? So the gloves would have a very limited usable lifetime.

TH eastral net thing, was described as the mage was floating in astral form, spoted by a dual natured security guard. TH eguard shot the net around the projecting mage entagling him, basically surrounding him. As the net pushed him down he had nowhere to go because the net was also under him. So when the net got lower to the floor the mage had less space to squeeze into. So he had to do the fight thing and he failed, so was crushed between the 2 layers of the net.

Have fun with your gloves of doom. And keep on applying real world physics to a fake world inside a fake world.

Yea i know fast movement is out of the question with a pair of FAB gloves, But moving at a few hundred miles an hour and hitting something would really suck for the both of you. I might be mistaken but dosent damage suffered on the astral turn into stun once you re enter your body. So while the guy you hit by zooming into him at several hundred mph will be dead all you have to do is take a nap and your fine. FAB type gloves have some a major advantages for guardapelegic mages(im currently playing one), im sure all the mages who are quadrapelegicwould love to be able to do things that they would normally have to have a nurse to do. well.......that really depends on who the nurse is.

I never thought about having a watcher use fast movement to slam into a ghoul or shapeshifter.

ME: ok im gonna have my watcher use fast movement and ram into the other players shapeshifter

Shapeshifter: After i regenerate the damage ur gonna die

GM: ok roll your body against 500D

Shapeshifter: I fail, but I can regenerate!.............................What do you mean I caint regenerate 500D damage?

totally unrelated side note here but has anyone else noticed that when you highlight the smiles that it looks like its eye's close and it stops smiling?

see just highlight one and compair it to the other

Ramming is worse than you think (if the GM allows that reading of the rules), since a mage can take physical damage while projecting, and can die from it. All wounds the projection experiences pass on to the meat. At no point are they converted from physical to stun, so your zippy mage is even more dead than the shapeshifter.

Also, if you accept the premise that astral forms have no functional mass, they still have very little kinetic energy during fast movement, and ramming at full speed would not do any more damage than a CC aproved charge attack (except using charisma instead of strength).

I stand corrected about physical damage being converted into stun

A lightning bolt has very little mass but im willing to bet you still screwed when one of those hits you.

Edited for typos

Not all damage is from kinetic energy. The speed of a lightning bolt is irrelevant to how much hurt it causes. With that in mind, then astrally charging at max speed doesn't give you any benefit because you are still attacking with the force of your will, not kinetic energy. Just as the lighning is doing damage because of the amperage involved not the speed of each electron.

Cyanide doesn't move very fast, but when applied properly it can kill you, so speed obviously has nothing to do with damage.

Levitate is physical, and can't be used while projecting. Any mana-based levitate spell you use could only move purely astral beings, not dual-nature people and objects, because "levitating" the person's astral form would not move their physical form, their astral form still having no mass. It would be like trying to pull a person by the arm when his feet are cemented to the ground. I'm assuming it wouldn't be possible to totally rip a person's astral form from their body.

I thought when moving at super speed in astral you can't really target things You would have to periodically stop and look around to find your way back to body or check something out? Would not that make going really fast and punching someone really hard?

Joker for some reason maybe because I have played since first edition and in second edition they make it pretty clear with the net analogy that astral forms can't move dual things, I have a hard time letting the idea of FAB gloves work. I will continue to look for reasons why it can't be done. If I can't well I guess you win, but it still won't be done in my games. One of the main things I liked about 3rd ed was the seperation of astral and physical. Dual nature stuff hasn't been really covered.

When moving on the astral, I imagine you'd take the same perception penalty modifiers you'd get on the physical. At full speed, you might as well be blind for all but the largest scale stuff (namely, knowing roughly about where you're going).

It says you know direction and location and can dodge astral forms but other then that you can't really see anything with out slowing down. Still looking for a straw.

Since I'm the idiot who came up with the astral tackle, I propose this:

(1) There is no such things as mass on the astral plane. (Just like there is no sound in the vacuum of space)

Assume that (2) the law of conservation of energy holds true, and that pushing an object requires the pusher as well as the pushee to have mass (conservation of momentum). FAB-II bacteriae are pushed out of the way by purely astral forms passing through them. The astral form cannot push the physical (mass possessing) form of the dual natured bacteria, so (3) it must be pushing the bacteria's astral form. Which, if (1) and (2) are both assumed to be true, would be impossible. So only two out of (1), (2), and (3) can be correct at the same time. As far as I know, no one has yet managed to create a true perpetuum mobile in Shadowrun, so we can safely assume that the law of conservation of energy holds true even in our whacky magical world of make-believe. So, it is either (1) or (3), but we need a model in which both are true - or else the astral tackle will be upon us. Which would be bad. Really bad. "Kill-a-dragon-with-your-watcher" bad.

Consider this: (4) Astral space can be occupied by only one astral form (either purely astral or dual natured) at a time. (Wards may be an exception to this rule, since astrally projecting mages can "phase through" them) So, in order to move through space which is already occupied, (5) an astral form must first clear the way through astral combat or similar methods. ("Similar methods" may be an explanation for the wards exception) Loose clouds of FAB-II bacteriae are a very weak obstacle, thus (6) the mere waving of a hand can part a cloud just like cutting through thin foliage with a (dikoted) machete.

If we replace (3) with (6), then the contradiction is removed, and both the displacement as well as the masslessness of purely astral forms are possible at the same time. Instead of pushing the bacteriae away, astral forms are assumed to be automatically "attacking" FAB-II clouds (which are no match in this form), brushing them away as they pass.
Thus, no passing on of kinetic energy, no weird FAB gloves, and no astral tackles.

Thank god.

Skip, I'd like to point out that for all anyone knows, the Awakening very well beat the shit out of entropy and conservation of energy. As far as I know, nothing ever specifically states one way or the other, and it is, after all, magic.

Why do you guys keep saying there is no mass on the astral plane? That's complete conjecture and it has no solid basis on anything in 3rd Edition. Mass may not mean anything on the astral plane, but things on the astral plane do have mass as proven by astral constructs. Likewise, astral beings have no problem moving dual-natured beings, as proven by FAB Strain-II. And, furthermore, the astral plane does apparently have something akin to gravity because astral constructs don't float away on their own. Just because a sentient astral form can defy it, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

The biggest thing to remember is the astral plane is not the physical world. The physics of the astral plane are wholly alien to those of our world. Everything you think you know about science means nothing there. I can't even begin to understand why some of you insist on trying to apply physics to such a place.

The only time real-world physics apply is when an astral form is bound by the laws of the physical world, such as with dual-beings or an astral being manipulating a dual-being. In those situations, Fast Movement is right out, you can't walk through walls, and you are in just about every way limited by the obstacles of both worlds. Dual-beings have to contend with laws of conservation, entropy, mana warps, wards, and everything else you want to throw out there.

When it comes down to it, physical beings only have to deal with the physical and astral beings only have to deal with the astral. When the two collide, however that may occur, they have to deal with the limitations of both. It's that simple.

So? Who says your astral form doesn't have a unique mass all its own? Just because its a psychic projection, that doesn't mean it doesn't. When you project, you give your astral form a Body and Strength rating, indicating that it has something akin to mass, even if its purely astral in nature.

Like I pointed out earlier, FAB Strain-II proves that an astral form can push and move dual-natured beings. By your own arguments, that means they must have some form of mass in order to do so, as that would be the only time where their mass would come into play.

It's also not necessarily a special case of astral constructs. It's just something that's never come up before in the rules, so they made a point to state it in the description for one since it might actually come up.

Look, if those with like minds of yours are correct, then astral constructs could never be weilded by an astral form. They have mass, they have weight, and they're affected by gravity. Thus, if those things stop astral forms from influencing dual-beings as you seem to wish to suggest, then they couldn't be influenced by astral forms. Yet they clearly are.

From Dunkelzahn's will:

Nope, but you were bitching about astral constructs and yet had no clue where they were detailed. Hence my wholly accurate criticism.

Troll. I made no negative comments whatsoever about astral constructs. Nor did I argue with the rules regarding them. I acknowledged that astral constructs have their own rules and never argued the validity of those rules. The astral constrct rules are just fine and IMHO they dont impact any of the things that I am arguing about. Since there's only 2 posts above in which I discusses astral consructs how about you (re)read them then issue me an apology? It would be appreciated.

I'd apologize if I felt my comment wasn't accurate. Unfortunately, you certainly did go on about how astral constructs, despite your admitted ignorance of them, had no bearing on the conversation even though they're perfectly valid.

I'm not the one who went on and on in multiple posts about a set of rules I was largely ignorant of. You did. If you didn't want anyone saying anything about it, you probably should have avoided the topic altogether.

Hmm, apparently I wasn't very clear with what I meant.

On the astral plane, mass means very little. It comes up when lifting objects such as astral constructs and anything else along those lines, but in general it obviously doesn't apply to everything quite the same way it does on the physical plane. The physics of both worlds are completely different.

However, when one plane is forced to interact with another, everyone and everything involved is limited by the strongest weakness of the other plane. So while mass doesn't mean much to an astrally projecting mage, if he pushes through a cloud of FAB Strain-II, his astral form is resisted by the dual-natured FAB. The FAB's astral presence has the same characteristics as the mage, but since it's dual-natured, it's limited by the physical world, so anything interacting with one side is likewise forced to contend with the other. That's why Fast Movement is rendered impossible while moving through the cloud.

It works both ways, too. Anytime a dual-natured being interacts or attacks a purely astral form, he's limited by his physical nature but anything he does to the astral form has its reactions garned solely by the astral plane.

Aah, now I see where our main disagreement is. You believe that astral forms can influence the physical plane via a dual natured being (forming some kind of bridge), while I think that astral forms can only influence other things on the astral plane, but not things on the physical plane.

I think that a projecting mage can't push over a dual natured being (which would influence its physical body), but he could very well attack the dual natured's astral body. Maybe the dualbeing would flinch, but not because of any exchange of physical force.
Meanwhile, you think that the same mage could easily grab the dualbeing's (astral) arm, and perform a throw on it. Of course, he can't yank the astral body from the physical body, so wherever one goes, the other must follow. Even if that means that somewhere, physical force must be applied.

While I still think that my model of how astral space works has more internal coherence, I'll have to admit that I've not managed to find hard proof in any rulebook that would point either way. And believe me, I've looked. So, I guess it's up to the next magic rulebook to fill up that grey area.

But I'm curious, how would your model handle the astral tackle in both variants? (Variant A being mage fast-travles into dual natured wall, and variant B being dual natrued being runs into astral barrier)

Oh, and what exactly do you mean by "strongest weakness"?

There is some insight provided in MitS when it speaks of pressing through barriers. A dual natured being who runs into a barrier and cannot project either forces his way through or... forces his way through and takes damage. If it were possible for the astral to affect physical motion, the dual being would be forced to a stop on the physical plane (it seems to me).

Got a page reference on that? I've heard it mentioned a few times but don't recall ever seeing anything on it personally.

After a quick look, the only references I could find are on SR3 p. 174, "Astral Barriers" and MitS p. 88, "Fooling Astral Barriers." Both state that anyone who wants to pass through a ward other than the creator or those allowed through by the creator have to overcome the barrier in astral combat. No exceptions are made for dual-natured beings. Critters p. 5 makes no mention of an exception, either.

I think Tinkergnome is referring to pg 83 of th MitS, Pressing Through A Barrier.

Oh, sure, they put it in plain view. The last place I'd ever look... <shakes his fist angrily>

The rules very clearly state that astral forms can not affect physical forms. Period. Dual-natured being can be attacked or targeted with mana spells from the astral, but actually moving a dual-natured being would require you to move their physical form as well as their astral form - can't be done.

So what happens when you use the Throw maneuver on a dual-being?

I realised this some time last night just before I went to bed. Unarmed Combat can be used in Astral Combat. Martial Arts can be used to replace Unarmed Combat. Martial Arts has Maneuvers. Maneuvers include Sweep and Throw. A projected mage can attack a dual natured being with Sweep/Throw. Who says spirits can't move physical?

Dang, Clockwork beat me to it.

A dual-natured being's body will react to its astral body being attacked. If you sweep a ghoul's leg, he is likely to lose his balance. If you pull his arm, he will likely tumble over. But I don't see an astral form picking up that ghoul and bodyslamming him.

...which is too bad, because that would be cool.

Sorry, not a valid answer, Kanada.

The same rules that say that astral beings can't affect the physical also state that physical beings can't affect the astral. Yet if you shove a dual-being or object through a ward, you're affecting the astral by either doing astral damage to that dual-being or potentially destroying an enchantment on a ward, dispelling a spell, or any of the other consequences that occur when that happens.

Clearly, those rules don't literally mean that there's no way for someone on one plane to affect the other, only that they can't do it directly. However, if you have some kind of "bridge" as Omega put it, such as a dual-being, you have the ability to affect the other plane indirectly.

An astrally projecting mage using Martial Arts (Throw) *is* picking up a dual-being and throwing him, just as if he were doing it on the physical plane. Due to the unique state of dual-beings, that translates over to the physical world, even though the mage isn't directly affecting his physical form.

Why can't that be true? It's exactly what's happening. Just because the mage is using his mental attributes as physical attributes, that doesn't mean he's not actually performing those actions with his astral body, or that the dual-being isn't being affected likewise.

It's almost as if you guys want your cake so you can eat it, too. Physical beings can make use of dual-natured beings or objects to affect the astral, but whoa, hold it right there guy... we don't want it to work the other way around! Just look back at that old FAB net you guys keep referencing from 2nd Edition.

When it comes down to it, it's exactly the same thing, just in reference. An astral form could use a Throw maneuver to throw a dual-natured being into a bunch of physical opponents if he really wanted to. There's nothing in the rules stopping it, and most of the rules imply that it does work. Those astral constructs certainly suggest as much. Picking up an astral construct of a club and bashing someone with it is not metaphorical. You are picking up a club using your astral Strength (ie, Charisma) score and bashing someone with it using your astral Strength (ie, Charisma) score. Just like when a dual-being would if he picked up the same club and smacked the projecting magician.

Reinstate grounding, then astral entities can use dual natured objects to influence the physical world just fine.

Grounding was always lame. Besides, it allows a magician to directly influence the physical which is just illogical within the game world. Throwing a dual-natured being is one thing, casting a spell that channels through a dual-natured object to directly affect a mundane with said spell is something else entirely.

What is grounding?

2nd edition way to make astrally projecting mages and spirits more annoying. They could "ground" an area effect spell through a dual natured object (or creature) so that all valid targets near the dual-natured object are caught in the spell.

I can't remember if it was limited to mana-based spells, or if fireball was perfectly legal.

I have heard my GM (who started out 2nd ED) make mention of this before. It has never really come up in game. Is this 3rd ED cannon? Im hoping no cause that would be gay.

No, it's not.