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Kanada Ten
QUOTE
Then I think, hummm, those conceal 5 SMGs and conceal 6 and 7 Heavy Pistols are looking pretty damn good.

[IC] But the fraggin' SMG handle like crap, and those wussy Morrissey guns look like something my wife would match to her purse. I wanna lay down some spary to cover our exit from the bank, not kill one guy really dead. Now, the TMP, there's a weapon. Full Auto - barrrrrrat, plus the long slender frame doesn't hang when I pull it out fast. Baby handles like a dream with that custom grip, too.
Zazen
I'm surprised no one mentioned the tactic of using chemical-loaded capsule rounds in a machine pistol. When you empty your clip for suppresive fire, that guy has to get 10+ successes on a dodge test to avoid your choice of hard-to-resist toxin, limited only by your budget. Some machine pistols have enough ammo capacity to do this 2 or three times before even having to think about an empty clip.

It's a pretty good tactic for such high concealability, and you can even whip out two to deal twice the chemical fun. I've had an NPC do this before using simple pepper punch and hyper; it's pretty damn effective.
Entropy Kid
Drifting into that spooky zone of GM discretion, I'm not sure something with a 30 or 40 round magazine should be allowed in an easily accessable "conceal holster," except for someone around ork size or larger, the text itself says "a pistol," but some pistols probably shouldn't be allowed in them either- especially after sound supressors (I mean "Silencers" smile.gif ), laser sights, etc. are stuck on them.

QUOTE
I'm surprised no one mentioned the tactic of using chemical-loaded capsule rounds in a machine pistol.
With capsule rounds, I usually think hold-out pistols, but you have a good point. Although it seems as likely as the ultimate, super, super-duper, max, machine pistol in the hands of a strength enhanced troll- it's a great one for the bag of tricks, I'd never see that coming (but the people around here are more creative it seems).

I remember reading some house rules not allowing capsule rounds for bullets under a certain size (to stop their use in hold-outs). I like that idea quite a bit.
otomik
capsules are too easy. i'd prefer to ignore them, and i think a lot of people agree with me or most runners would be packing nothing but cavalier scouts with capsules rather than their heavy pistols.

it doesn't take much of a capsule to provide a lethal dose.
http://www.geocities.com/project_coast/page_7.html
imagine a little machine pistol spitting out tiny 1.7mm spheres like that...

Poison Umbrellas, Evil GMs take note and watch out players with Evil GMs
Siege
I've never carried a machine pistol because it's too specialized for what my non-sams would carry a weapon for.

1. Handgun -- self-defense.
1a) Handgun with burst fire -- aggressive self-defense.

2. SMG -- multi-purpose. Generates automatic fire for a variety of uses; capable of making targets sit up and notice.

3. Machine Pistol -- multi-purpose, but lighter impact. Not as functional against specific targets, but will make most people scatter and/or dive for cover.

A professional sam would concievably see a use and purpose for the more specialized machine pistol, given the relative light damage but a generalist or a non-combat spec might opt for more multi-purpose weapons.

And if I'm going to get busted for carrying an automatic weapon, it might as well have teeth. grinbig.gif

-Siege

Edit: And trying to interject real life into SR mechanics kinda defeats the purpose. A MP chambered in 9mm is still gonna be terrifying to responding officers wearing body armor on their torso and nowhere else.
Austere Emancipator
Definitions of Machine Pistol and SMGs have been rather adequately given in SR terms already. MPs use the Pistols-skill to fire LP ammo at LP ranges doing (usually) 6L damage with rather high Concealabilities and rather low Weights and are capable of BF or FA or both. SMGs use the SMG-skill to fire SMG ammo at SMG ranges doing 6M or 7M damage with mediocre Concealabilities (though you can get a custom one with a very high Conc) and medium Weights and are capable of BF or FA or both.

Just because the numbers don't completely add up, you can use Real Life weapons as an example of this. The VP70M is a machine pistol, the MP5 is a submachine gun (or indeed THE submachine gun). The Stechkin APS is a machine pistol, the Thompson is a submachine gun. Steyr TMP = MP, Steyr AUG Para = SMG.

Then we enter muddy waters: if you accept that the Steyr TMP is a machine pistol (like the people at Steyr obviously did, Tactical Machine Pistol), where do you draw the line with the Uzis? Most would say that the standard, full-size Uzi is a SMG, but the micro-Uzi is a MP. But what about the mini-Uzi, which is it? The Skorpion most would probably call MP, but how about the MP7? Of course you can dodge that last question by saying that the MP7 is a "personal defense weapon", but that isn't very helpful. What's the P90 in that case?
TinkerGnome
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Steyr TMP = MP,

Even more interesting, it's not possible to mount a foregrip on a machine pistol.
Siege
The P-90 was (and is) classified as a PDW. grinbig.gif

Of course, what do you classify PDWs into? A new Active skill?

And without checking CC, I don't know if you're permitted to mount a foregrip on a MP but we've established that not every SR law makes sense or functions well irl.

-Siege
Arethusa
A PDW skill? Come on, the firearms skills are already ridiculously fractured. No need to make things worse. Especially when the difference between firing a P90 and firing any other SMG is pretty much nil. As for stuff like the TMP or MP7, I'd stick to the SMG skill, and for the really tiny stuff like the Micro Uzi, I guess I'd be forced to allow Pistols or SMGs to apply.
Siege
QUOTE (Arethusa)
A PDW skill? Come on, the firearms skills are already ridiculously fractured. No need to make things worse. Especially when the difference between firing a P90 and firing any other SMG is pretty much nil. As for stuff like the TMP or MP7, I'd stick to the SMG skill, and for the really tiny stuff like the Micro Uzi, I guess I'd be forced to allow Pistols or SMGs to apply.

Sorry, I forgot the [/goofy, rhetorical question] tag. grinbig.gif

-Siege
Jaded
Just a point on the real life handling of weapons...

What on earth does that have to do with game weapons or game rules?
Unless you are pulling out real guns at your gaming table and shooting each other then your real life expertise is meaningless.
The effectiveness of RL firearms has -nothing- to do with the effectiveness of SR firearms.

In fact, if real life knowledge of guns had any bearing on judging the In Game weapons, it is more likely to be a negative factor than positive. Real life knowledge can easily color rules interpretations with what "should" be.

---

As to the matter at hand, I love mps for one reason, because no one else carries them.
The White Dwarf
Yes, people should stop trying to make the rules mirror reality.
Yes, MP are useful.
Yes, some people in this thread continue to not get the point.
Yes, its their loss because theyre the ones overlooking tactical flexibility.
Dweller on the Threshold
Not that it matters, but I've always viewed Machine Pistols to be more like those automatic pistols Glock puts out; Light Pistols with automatic capabilities, just like others have said. Anything heavier than that goes into the Submachine Gun category as far as I'm concerned.

Sure, the names they tag on to some of the weapons may be contrary to what their real-world equivalences are, but the intent seems to be pretty solid. When it comes down to it, Machine Pistols are just automatic Light Pistols and that's about that.

If you're more interested in metagaming, that's your perogotive. But Machine Pistols are not useless or worthless. They work quite nicely in my experience. Especially when dual-weilded: Suppressive fire on crack. smile.gif
John Campbell
QUOTE (Oddfellow)
I'm no gun expert, but I've asked some folks more knowledgable than me.  According to them, in the real world, there are lots of crappy guns that sell very well for aesthetic, cultural, whatever reasons.  Apparently gun magazines are filled with ads for shitty inneffective guns that look cool/covert to FA/insert stupid reason to buy here.

And for extra fun, which guns are the good ones and which are the crappy ones will vary radically between gun experts! I've seen pages-long arguments between very serious gun enthusiasts about whether a certain model of Glock was the best pistol evar or a jamming-prone piece of crap that no one should buy.
Jaded
QUOTE
And for extra fun, which guns are the good ones and which are the crappy ones will vary radically between gun experts! I've seen pages-long arguments between very serious gun enthusiasts about whether a certain model of Glock was the best pistol evar or a jamming-prone piece of crap that no one should buy.


One of the truest bits ever. Everything is subjective. Especially when experts get involved.
Arethusa
QUOTE (Jaded)
The effectiveness of RL firearms has -nothing- to do with the effectiveness of SR firearms.

And very few people find this to be pleasant. At best, it's accepted; more often, it's mocked, and for good reason.

I don't see why you find the concept of realistic weaponry unpleasant. Not only does it make a hell of a lot more sense than the stuff found in canon, but it's quite playable. Even Spycraft and it's extreme (and intentional) unrealism is orders of magnitude more realistic than SR, and I hear that game's quite popular.

QUOTE (The White Dwarf)
Yes, people should stop trying to make the rules mirror reality.
Yes, MP are useful.
Yes, some people in this thread continue to not get the point.
Yes, its their loss because theyre the ones overlooking tactical flexibility.

Maybe you can back this up, as I've gone over the numbers on the previous page, and it's pretty clear that machine pistols are a class of weapons that do almost absolutely nothing better than other much more available and tactically flexible weapons?

QUOTE (Dweller on the Threshold)
They work quite nicely in my experience. Especially when dual-weilded: Suppressive fire on crack.

As I recall, SMGs can be dual weilded without additional penalty just as well.

QUOTE (John Campbell)
And for extra fun, which guns are the good ones and which are the crappy ones will vary radically between gun experts! I've seen pages-long arguments between very serious gun enthusiasts about whether a certain model of Glock was the best pistol evar or a jamming-prone piece of crap that no one should buy.

But that doesn't necessarily mean there aren't weapons out there that are quite literally and unarguably (combat) useless. No gun expert will ever suggest bringing a .22 target pistol of any kind to a battle or even with you for self defense, and that's exactly what we're looking at in when it comes to light pistols. Not everything is subjective.
Kanada Ten
The bottom right corner of the Weapon Record PDF has a side-by-side comapirison of an SMG and a Machine Pistol.
Phaeton
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
The bottom right corner of the Weapon Record PDF has a side-by-side comapirison of an SMG and a Machine Pistol.

Hmm. The right-hand one looks like a descendant of the Beretta 93FS. That, I'd say, would qualify as a machinepistol.
Dissonance
Heh. Well, as far as pistols go, I'd have to say that the most useless pistol I've ever had to use wasn't a machine pistol. I know a guy who uses them to a fair bit of success, at that. The single worst pistol I have ever had the misfortune to lay my grubby little hands on is the Eichiro Hatamoto II.

Off topic, but eh. It's TRUE. You better hope that 8S blast kills the guy, 'cause you aren't getting a second chance. dead.gif
The White Dwarf
I already did........

As pistols MP's have higher conceal due to concealable holster if nothing else.

As pistols MP's allow someone with a single gun skill to have access to autofire.

Using supressive fire rules, both weapons are nearly equally powerful presuming the user has an equal skill level.

And thats just the more obvious/applicable stuff, you can create more reasons if you start using specific character builds. Point being that statisitcally superior damage code isnt the be all end all measuring stick of which gun is best.

Agree or not, doesnt affect how it works in others' games.
Sahandrian
QUOTE (Jaded)
Unless you are pulling out real guns at your gaming table and shooting each other then your real life expertise is meaningless.

Does keeping a pair of spring-powered plastic machine pistols near the gaming table count?

I'm a pretty good shot with those little plastic pellets... I need to remember those next time I invite the munchkin to a live game...
Austere Emancipator
The thing I'm most proud of with my revamping of the firearms is that my players really do pick weapons based on name and looks and minor details like 0.25kg lower weight. There are so many good things and bad things about all kinds of weapons that it's often impossible to say which particular gun is "the best". I think I've currently got 67 different pistols alone in the game, and comparing them all point-by-point is just pointless: they're all good at something.

No comment on whether you "should" or "should not" change ranged combat rules/figures. I don't think anybody "should" do anything about a game. But it's probably wise to do the thing that makes you feel better. For me, that was making the rules more realistic at minimum additional complexity (to players, at least).
Arethusa
QUOTE (Phaeton)
m. The right-hand one looks like a descendant of the Beretta 93FS. That, I'd say, would qualify as a machinepistol.

I'm not really seeing any resemblance to the 93R at all. Or, hell, any other real life weapon I'm familiar with. Not that the SR firearm drawings are generally terribly good, but this is one of the ones that bears no resemblance to anything currently existing.

On a slightly related note, I'm glad that drawing clears up where it keeps the 40 rounds of ammunition.

QUOTE (Dissonance)
Off topic, but eh. It's TRUE. You better hope that 8S blast kills the guy, 'cause you aren't getting a second chance.

Unfortunately, yeah, this type of weapon really has no place in SR canon due to abstracted hit locations and armor. In a more precise system, it wouldn't be such a liability.

QUOTE (The White Dwarf)
I already did........

As pistols MP's have higher conceal due to concealable holster if nothing else.

As pistols MP's allow someone with a single gun skill to have access to autofire.

Using supressive fire rules, both weapons are nearly equally powerful presuming the user has an equal skill level.

And thats just the more obvious/applicable stuff, you can create more reasons if you start using specific character builds. Point being that statisitcally superior damage code isnt the be all end all measuring stick of which gun is best.

The concealability is almost a nonexistant advantage. The SMGs, as far as I know, can be shoved in concealable holsters. I don't recall any canon ruling that states they can't, and, hell, if you can shove a conceal 4 pistol in one, I can't imagine why you shouldn't be able to shove a conceal 5 SMG in too.

As far as access to autofire goes, that's great, because anyone who has only Pistols and nothing else is likely not to be combat inclined, and not likely to be able to hit anything with the crazy recoil you'll generate from a machine pistol. Besides, if you just take SMGs, you get the same concealabilities you can get with heavy pistols, access to autofire, and only have to deal with 3 points less power, at most.

As far as suppressing fire goes, that 6L really isn't going to suppress anyone.

And of course damage code isn't all there is to it. That's why I also noted prices, availabilities, capacities, recoil, and various other advantages that everything not a machine pistol has access to.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
On a slightly related note, I'm glad that drawing clears up where it keeps the 40 rounds of ammunition.

The bullets are really really small, but it's that thing on the barrel that looks like a grip. ;)

QUOTE
Unfortunately, yeah, this type of weapon really has no place in SR canon due to abstracted hit locations and armor.

The ability to bypass armor with a called-shot makes this a lethal weapon in the right hands. This isn't a combat gun though; like a light pistol, this is self defense for those without melee skills. If you're down to the Hatamoto you tucked into your boot it is your last chance, but better than dead.
A Clockwork Lime
QUOTE
The concealability is almost a nonexistant advantage. The SMGs, as far as I know, can be shoved in concealable holsters. I don't recall any canon ruling that states they can't, and, hell, if you can shove a conceal 4 pistol in one, I can't imagine why you shouldn't be able to shove a conceal 5 SMG in too.

While the rules don't say you can't put an SMG in a concealable holster, the benefits of one (including quick-draw holsters) only apply to pistols.

QUOTE
As far as access to autofire goes, that's great, because anyone who has only Pistols and nothing else is likely not to be combat inclined, and not likely to be able to hit anything with the crazy recoil you'll generate from a machine pistol.

First, your comment about someone with Pistols is just idiotic. Characters who focus on Pistols generally do it for the versatility, options, and coolness factor of using them. They run the gambit from heavy penetration to automatic fire to shotgun ammo while simultaneously being amongst the most concealable and portable firearms in the game. No other firearm group in the game can make that claim. I'd hardly say that a Mafia Soldier or any other character who prefers, if not exclusively uses, a pistol is "likely not to be combat inclined."

Second, a machine pistol has exactly the same amount of recoil as an SMG does, with many of the same recoil compensation options available (a Heavy Barrel with Gas Vent IV and a Personalized Grip gives you 6 points alone). Stocks and Cyberarm Gyromounts work just as well with them, too. A custom-built one (ie, one manufactured by someone outside of those already listed in the books) can add another point on top of all that.

It may not be practical in all situations, but they can be compensated nearly as well as an SMG can.

QUOTE
As far as suppressing fire goes, that 6L really isn't going to suppress anyone.

Only in the munchkinland you seem to play in. The vast majority of the Sixth World's population is going to get bit and bit hard by a competent pistoleer shooting a weapon with a base damage code of 6 to 7L.

QUOTE
And of course damage code isn't all there is to it. That's why I also noted prices, availabilities, capacities, recoil, and various other advantages that everything not a machine pistol has access to.

While simultaneously ignoring or pushing aside all the advantages. Quite the open mind you have there, hoss.
eidolon
QUOTE
Only in the munchkinland you seem to play in.


I was waiting for that.
The White Dwarf
The damage code on suppression is irrelevent. The point is the bad guys are forced to make a dodge test or suffer a free attack. Either they blow their combat pool, or you get to hurt them. And presuming a SL-2, you get to roll your skill at TN 4 for the free shot. In the hands on anyone with an above average skill (8ish dice) thats going to hurt a lot, especially because if they tried to dodge they have less combat pool left. And if youre doing something like supressing a doorway, which are roughly only 2 sq meteres, thats 5 successes they need to dodge; which is near the top or past what most people can make even if they use thier whole pool.

But I guess for you the damage code of 6L (again, focusing on the dmg code, tsk tsk) isnt useful for tapping an opponents entier combat pool and getting a free attack. Oh, and in the case of a door it hits *every* badguy that decides to move thru that round. Gee, me and my crappy MP just took away the combat pool for everyone persuing us in one action, without *any* recoil compensation. That blows.

And on concealability, MP con6, holster +2, longcoat mod, is con12. SMG is con6, longcoat mod, con9. Conceal 12 vs conceal 9. Takes 36 dice on average to spot the 12 with 1 success, but only 12 dice to spot the 9. MP's 3 times as concealable. Yet another example of the non-linear scaling TNs making a big change over a small difference...

But of course youve considered everything and keep ignoring it, because youve run all the numbers. Guess you missed some or something /shrug.
toturi
QUOTE (The White Dwarf)
The damage code on suppression is irrelevent. The point is the bad guys are forced to make a dodge test or suffer a free attack. Either they blow their combat pool, or you get to hurt them. And presuming a SL-2, you get to roll your skill at TN 4 for the free shot. In the hands on anyone with an above average skill (8ish dice) thats going to hurt a lot, especially because if they tried to dodge they have less combat pool left. And if youre doing something like supressing a doorway, which are roughly only 2 sq meteres, thats 5 successes they need to dodge; which is near the top or past what most people can make even if they use thier whole pool.

There are no mods other than wound mods for suppression. SLs do not apply.
The White Dwarf
Correct, misread a line. Point still stands its a free attack, and with a decent skill level you stand to land at least a moderate. The specifics of course depend on the exact character shooting and what hes shooting at, but presuming a few attacks in a scenario where youd be using suppressive fire, and a MP loaded with EX rounds, theres a very fair chance to tag everyone with a moderate.
Austere Emancipator
Doesn't Suppressive Fire work so that additional successes on the attack test do no stage up the DL?
The White Dwarf
Nope, p107 CC

If you get the free attack, and land a hit, the defender gets no second dodge test and the attack is staged only by attackers successes (ie, no bonus for burst/auto fire). So basically presuming you hit theyre forced to soak using only armor and body, staged up by your successes.
Austere Emancipator
Wow, you're absolutely correct. I'd always figured otherwise, dunno why.
Person 404
Probably thinking of searching fire which, IIRC, doesn't allow successes to stage up.
Phaeton
Pardon my lack of rules-fu, but what is searching fire? I don't have CC, so...
The Jopp
QUOTE (Arethusa)
Right, because that 6L damage is going to suppress real well. I'd advise searching fire if it didn't turn into 2L the second it hit even the most incompetent runner.

Now, the 6L IS a bit silly but remember one thing. 1 ganger with an autopistol is a joke, 20 of them is a sh!tstorm of lead heading your way. Sure, you might just take a light but that can become plenty of light.
Person 404
QUOTE (Phaeton)
Pardon my lack of rules-fu, but what is searching fire? I don't have CC, so...

More bullets means more dice to hit, rather than more damage if they do hit.
I Eat Time
I don't get it. In the games I've played in alone, I've seen 2-3 gun adepts, cybered or magical, that have the Pistol skill. Now, with the Pistol skill alone, one has an incredible range of concealability, a nice spread of available damage codes, a whole slew of options, and any firing mode available (thank-you machine pistols). Besides that, the prices are a lot cheaper, and there are very, very few ammunition loads that don't work with the guns.

While SMGs are the single most widely useful weapon type, it's still not as useful as ALL the pistols. Really, they're useful weapons stuck somewhere in between assault rifles and heavy pistols. While they're pretty useful by themselves, if I wanna do a crapload of damage, I'll get an AR, and if I want to do decent damage without sacrificing concealability, I'll get a heavy Pistol, or GASP, a machine pistol.

As far as the mysterious 40-round clip, I'm guessing the 6L damage code indicates that it uses fairly small bullets. Ever seen Equilibrium? Not the most realistic movie ever, and using it as an example doesn't beat flat-out common sense, but my guess is that the rounds he uses are small, in big guns, hence why he can use them like machine pistols.
Austere Emancipator
40 rounds of anything cannot be fit inside a pistol grip. It just won't happen, unless you want a compressed-air BB gun. That's 30 rounds of 9mmP, by far the most common "medium" pistol caliber in existance. The second picture from the top on this page is 20 rounds of just about the smallest western pistol cartridge. 40 rounds of that would still be almost twice as high as the largest pistol grip, even when double-stacked.

I suppose you could fit about 30 rimless straight-cased .22s in a very hefty pistol grip without it sticking out much, but that shouldn't even count as a "Light Pistol". Damage-wise, that's closer to Hold-Out.
Siege
QUOTE (Phaeton)
Pardon my lack of rules-fu, but what is searching fire? I don't have CC, so...

Searching fire is, for all practical purposes, "recon by fire" -- the idea being a character lays down fire in an attempt to hit a fast target rather than directly aiming at a target.

Which I've always been happy with suppressing an area where a target happens to be standing -- but that's just me. grinbig.gif

And I suppose you could squeeze 40 rounds into a pistol grip -- it's just gonna be one _long_ magazine. grinbig.gif

-Siege
TinkerGnome
Would caseless ammo account for the smaller size? If so, maybe a sensible houserule would be that weapons with high capacity and high conceal have to use caseless?
A Clockwork Lime
Caseless ammunition is the norm, so the house rule would have to be all other weapons use cased ammo instead.
TinkerGnome
It is? I was under the impression that both were in common usage.
A Clockwork Lime
They're both equally available. Check out the first paragraph under Firearms in the gear section. I know it says caseless is the norm, or at least the most common type.
Siege
Sure, but the Glock 18 can be equipped with a 31 round mag of standard ammo.

Granted, the mag is as long as your forearm, but it works. grinbig.gif

-Siege
I Eat Time
AE; The only things I can think of are maybe an underbarrel clip, as opposed to in the pistol grip (which would be counter to illustrations, of course), or possibly a new way to stack it we haven't thought of yet. Maybe some kind of round clip? Make it 2x the length of bullets for diameter and just radially stack the bullets. How wide would that clip be?
Zeel De Mort
Maybe they can afford to make bullets smaller in the 2060s due to some super advances in ballistics we haven't thought of yet.

Or maybe the CC rules just don't work perfectly, it's a posibility too..
Austere Emancipator
When I said "fit into a pistol grip" above, I meant it should fit inside a pistol grip in all directions. So that precludes magazines that protrude 15cm down from the grip. The whole point was how something could have such a good Concealability while having such a huge magazine, so a magazine in front of the grip won't help at all -- instead of a large T-shaped weapon, you'll get a large somewhat rectangular weapon.

Caseless ammunition is not that much smaller in volume than cased ammunition, but the few examples of caseless ammo IRL certainly are shaped different. RL caseless ammo is much shorter than cased (5.56x45 is slightly over 5cm long while 4.7x33 is, you guessed it, about 3.3cm long), but it's also significantly wider. That helps with non-conventional feed systems, which use the difference in shape to pack more ammunition into a smaller, or at least more handy, space.

Because caseles ammo tends to be shorter but wider, it is actually more difficult to get the same amount of ammo into a pistol grip. It does allow you to have a more powerful pistol with small ammo capacity and a smaller grip, though.

You can see helical magazines (which, I guess, is a bit like what you were trying to describe, I Eat Time) here and here. I think it's obvious why such a setup won't work with a machine pistol, although it's certainly interesting for a SMG. Going to caseless might allow an AR to have a feed like that, but there's no additional advantage for pistol-caliber weapons for helical+caseless.
I Eat Time
Jeez, those cylinders are flat-out ugly. That's probably the closest thing in existence today to what I was talking about, but it's still too big. If you got caseless (which I assume exists) .22 ammunition, which is shorter, and spun it in a tight spiral down the clip, tip to tip across the diameter of the cylinder instead of straight up and down with respect to the outside of the clip, got a good crack engineering team to design the feeder without blowing themselves up (assuming that's doable in 2060), then I could see more, maybe even a lot more, rounds per clip. And it'd fit in the pistol grip.
Arethusa
It wouldn't. No amount of future technology's going to change the fact that 40 rounds won't fit in that space. Even if you went caseless helical, you could not possibly wind it tightly enough without incorporating a dimensional rift inside the magazine.
Austere Emancipator
Like I said, going caseless doesn't really reduce the overall size (volume displaced) of the round. Compared to a rimless straight .22, caseless .22s might actually be more difficult to fit more of inside a pistol grip, because they are (once again) shorter but wider. Anyway, a vertical helical magazine would require some really weird feed, sort of like G11 Lite.

That would still be extremely underpowered for any real use beyond target practice. I already mentioned that an equivalent of .22LRs is not a "Light Pistol". There's just no way humanity would have gone back to weapons that powerless. Not unless there are some very powerful organizations lobbying for handgun immunity for trolls in NA.
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