I am entirely unsold on making Armor basically redundant except for edge farming. Unless there's something that makes heavier armor somehow viable beyond edge gain, this will indeed be underpants troll edition, and that'd just suck.

But think of all the "eat my shorts" jokes.

Anybody else have their grubby mitts on that box?
Can somebody confirm or deny this?

Hey, this is what Hardy wants, make cybered characters entirely redundant in SR. Because this is the essence of cyberpunk, I guess.

I got the digital version, and yeah the spell description says the following
-------
stats
Range:T
Type: P
Duration S
Drain Value 3
Damage ---

Roll Sorcery + Magic and add net hits to
target’s Defense Rating and to Body for
Damage Resistance tests.

---------------

So yes it is correct so far. This may change in the final book, but yeah it's RAW.

Compare this to Lined Coat or Armor Vest which give +3DR, or Armor Jacket gives +4DR

Edit: to be fair say you got 6 sorcery and 6 Mag, with 12 dice that's still an average of 4 hits. YMMY of course, but overall its 4.
But yeah, that bonus to damage resistance is gonna be handy.
Course Edge can change this a bit. For 1 Edge you can reroll one die (post), but for 4 edge you can add Edge to the roll and explode 6s, so if you plan to armor up, do it early with edge and sustain.

That way you go into the fight with the enhanced DR, giving you a better chance of getting edge due to advantage.

underpants mage troll edition.

nah.

you gotta stack it with the armour so that you get some armour that actually protects you (ie the spell) *and* edge generation.

but really, it was already underpants mage troll edition. we already knew that armour wasn't going to actually provide any protective value, which is the underpants part, we know that metahumans no longer take penalties to any stats, and can spend their bonus stat points on racial attributes (which was most likely to make trolls if not the best, one of the best, simply because body attribute is so much more important when armour does nothing), so that covers troll, and mage, well... let's face it. shadowrun has been mage edition for a while now. we can't really blame *that* on 6th edition (or at least, we can only blame them in the sense that we can blame them for not fixing a problem that has been around for quite a while now).

Someone on Reddit pioneered the Underpants Troll with Badger Backpack as a suggestion, as if you carry a rabid badger around in a sack you can stuff your hand in to start combat any time you want Edge it becomes a battery. Pull its teeth first so you're always at an advantage on its attacks.

That someone on Reddit may be as much of an idiot as the GM who actually allows these kinds of shenanigans, but I like the image that conjurs.

What maluses does a mage get for sustaining a spell? Because othewise, it doesn't seem that off balanced. The spell is as strong as an armor jacket in average.

If we go back to older editions (2nd or 3rd) I remember that spell being as strong as an integral armor (but I may recall incorrectly).

it's giving soak. that is literally infinity more times more than armour gives in 6th edition. so comparatively, it is quite strong.

I'm reading this wrong then?

It seems to give additionnal dices, like armor no?

Or do I miss something on armor?

In 5th ed, when you wore armor you resisted damage based on Body plus Modified Armor (after accounting for any AP). The Armor Spell added to your Armor Value and could stack.

In 6th you only roll Body to resist damage, armor does nothing to help resist. The +xDR means additions to your Defense Rating- NOT Damage resistance, and Defense Rating only really applies to determining does someone have advantage over you with their weapon or not.

So say you have Body 3 and are wearing Armor Vest ( +3DR), your Defense Rating is 6.

Let's say I bop you with a Katana with an Attack Rating of 10, my AR is 4 higher than your DR of 6 so I get a bonus Edge to use.

Now if do score a hit Katana is Damage 4P plus any net hits.

You wearing that Armor Vest get to only roll your 3 Body dice to soak damage, the Armor Vest does nothing to help soak any of that damage.

The Armor SPELL on the other hand not only would add to the Defense Rating, but it also adds to your effective Body Rolls, so if I was a 2 Body Mage but had gotten 4 hits on Armor spell, my Defense would be 6 like yours, but when it comes time to roll dice to soak I get to roll 6 dice instead of the original 2 from my Body because the Armor spell helps with both Defense Rating AND Body rolls against damage.
So the Armor spell offers a lot more than mundane armor does.

That said, there will probably be some forms of cyber/bioware to help boost body like bone lacing or such, but worn armor has gotten a bit of a shake up.

The only drawback a mage gets for using Armor Spell is the usual -2 to rolls for sustaining, but with abilities like Concentrated Focus or a simple Sustaining Foci, this is not so much a hurdle in the long run.

As in, isn't worth shit anymore.

i can understand the confusion. without having paid close attention, i would have thought "oh, surely defense rating must actually be related to defense in some meaningful way, probably by lowering the amount of damage you take, just like armour has worked for the past 5 editions of shadowrun, just like it would make sense for it to continue to work, because that's pretty much exactly what armour does".

but no, in the new edition of shadowrun, as has been noted, defense rating just determines whether someone gets a point of edge for attacking you, and whether you gain a point of edge for being attacked. and in neither case does edge gained in this manner need to be spent on anything related to the armour; if the attacker has the bigger number by 4 or more, they get edge which does not need to be spent on the attack, and if the defender has the bigger number by 4, they get edge which does not need to be spent on soak.

so... yes the spell gives additional dice to resist damage. no, that isn't like armour; armour doesn't help you resist damage. it just... makes you more lucky? or... makes your enemies less lucky? well, something like that, anyways.

Armor in SR6 appears to only give DR, not dice to soak. DR appears to be solely used to see if attacks generate Edge.

It is not a very transparent system.

Just wow. If they keep that up, I'm out of 6th already.

Then plenty of AR, DR enhancements to hardware will be possible?
Any large advantage has always been a big deal when a someone does not have the weapon or the armor or the skills to match.
The big Edge gain from enhancements going straight to test dice makes sense in that way.
It will still be a confrontation to avoid for many a character.

DR? Direct Reality?

That's a big assumption you're making that nothing in the materials released so far backs up.

Either that or there are still a few situational modifiers to account for, or some of both?
And I heard it mentioned that only a Edge bonus is given in certain situations rather than a bonus dice modifier.

Ummm

Honestly, that's the kind of thing that sound so idiotic that I can't imagine that it's really the rule.

Like what???? You can't have playtesters and something like this go through.

They didn't do proper playtesting because it was "too much effort".

Can it be said that once an attacker scores a hit, the amount of damage you actually take is more than just armour but the advantage you assume?
So the chance to soak up that damage can be expressed with edge.
For example, A suprised defender may not be able to resist the same damage as an aware defender due to loss of advantage.

Considering they ignored playtesters last time around, I'm not surprised. Why even let people test the product if you're not going to listen anyways? That just unnecessarily stretches the release cycle

I guess.

But you're not getting edge for wearing armour, you're getting edge only IF your DR is 4 better than the AR and even then that 1pt of Edge is a re-roll on your Body, if you choose to spend it that way. It's a really really bad way of abstracting things and the spell is simply better than any physical armour.

I agree.

Let's say I play a character with low defense. The fact I wear or not an armor makes no difference against a good shooter/fighter? It's counter intuitive.




That being said, I do think that the spell working differently from an armor only shows a lack of consistency. I don't think it's deliberate (if it is, it's even dumber).

if by re-roll you mean re-roll for a single die, that is. the power of each point of edge got nerfed because of how easy it is to get. you'd need to get shot *four* times (and gain edge from each one, which based on typical attack rating values we've seen is pretty unlikely) to be able to re-roll all failures on a single test (which need not be a damage resistance test of any sort, it could just as easily be a test to climb an elevator shaft or summon a spirit).

Yep, it's just plain bad

Yep, it's just plain bad

I wonder if SR6 successor to Fields of Fire/Cannon Companion/Arsenal will feature an optional rule for armor that will involve adding rating to the dice pool, or if they will find such idea unnecessary.

Yep, as it is a re-roll, not an additional dice, which is in all ways inferior to the Armor spell which is likely to provide both Edge for re-rolls (due to increased Defense Rating) and provides straight Body dice as well.

Post on Matrix for SR6 is up now:

https://www.shadowrunsixthworld.com/2019/07...-matrix-in-sr6/

The first 2 paragraphs make it sound like "SR4 matrix, before Unwired." Don't worry, I'm sure they can figure out how to over-complicate and under-think it.

Third paragraph says they're making a change to the way things already are, so they aren't letting lack of rules knowledge slow them down.

Actually, the only changes I'm reading is datajack is now necessary, and also probably going to be more expensive and essence-requiring, and they've found a way to screw up technomancers even harder.

On first pass of the 6e QuickStart

The matrix is great, I'm honestly afraid the core book will have a worse version.
Edge is on the right track but has some weird arbitrary things going on. It might play ok though. I get a very old school combat pool vibe from it, which is something that has been missing for two editions.
Magic, slight improvement over 5e.
Combat over all I'm on the fence, its probably serviceable but needs refinement probably.
Rigging... dear lord I feel like I'm reading Rigger 2 again, why dont you just add a maneuver score while your at it! The Drone bits are sparse super sparse I didnt think that was the end when I turned the page. You may as well just put in "go handwave something"

Actually? Encouraging I think since 4e had a way to link devices in a Pan for Data Processing and had Advanced Programming Tables.
Now with Hosts which will likely have their own Data Processing and Firewall attributes makes me hope some type of Programming or Device hacking will make it to Sixth World, which 5e had to some degree.
Now there might be room for Host deckers who hack programs? Without a Cyberjack? Host's have been slowly getting more light as far as usability and maybe Sixth World will continue the trend.

The Cyberjack is what is going to let you go full VR. You can certainly deck without it, they got commlinks with their own DP/F stats and you could probably turtle it from a terminal for a Host, but there will probably be a few dice less in response time which will also probably translate into a disadvantage when it comes time to awarding Edge, so the decker with the cyberjack will probably gain Edge over the slo-joe using just their commlink or terminal connection.

And then there's drawing attention to the Host itself by launching illegal actions from it. It won't be a your host for long, very likely.
Maybe they will bring back the Foundation rules so that a Host can be hacked that way.

So there are devices with Data Procssing and Firewall values other than Cyberjacks.....
Now, it's left to see is if there can be multiple devices on a PAN for example, assisting with data processing and/or firewalling.

All Commlinks have D/F values, usually around 1/1, though a police squad car in an example has 5/5, so maybe devices now have stats that actually are at least somewhat meaningful.

Just as a fun aside, Pegasus does not want money for promotional material: https://www.pegasusdigital.de/product/28317...6--Starterpaket

Also cool: They're giving out the German 5th Ed BBB for free. In case anyone finally decided to lean German and needs course material

Too bad there aren't sub-publishers to do content in english as there are plenty of regions that can use a current sourcebook.

What are the differences between the Pegasus product and the Beginner's besides one being free?

Apparently it's free of typos, incorrect rules and misprinted reference cards

Not entirely (c&p errors in a table, one typo), but at least there's less and it is free. Cards were not translated, might be released later if they have the capacity, according to Hamelmann (the editor).

Meh, still not interested with it all, I have a shelf healthily stocked with SR3 and some 2 material and will continue enjoying them. The crazy thing is it wouldnt be that hard to put the same effort CGL have put into genuinely updating 3rd for better effect and a good product.

Very realistic to say a previous release of the game, SR3 to take your example, can be worked, updated into something else.
The problem must be because people ask the question..Why? There is little or no pay involved while the licenced versions keep rolling aong.
And how likely will it be that the rework won't look alot like the last released edition?

I knew about Shadowrun from the beginning but never got into it for many reasons but the one I took as a deal breaker was the following......
When a game is skilled advancement based with attributes and with relatively low numbers, all the skills rolls will tend to have the same results as there is little room for randomness. So a system must be put into place to expose the extreme ranges of dice rolls or be able to modify those rolls. 3e had gambled on situatonal modifiers but left too much to houserule so I never took it up. But 4e got my attention again karma then 5e had edge.

In fact alot of the changes I saw necessary from the early editions often but not always go into later editions.

Too much to House rule? In 3e? That alone makes me think you never looked at the game. 5e had to be house ruled to hell and back *points at some ancient posts where I had pages of house rules that I alone had made, plus the others that people had done*

My point was that the people doing the licensed version could have produced a licensed product in place of 6e or indeed 5e the genuinely built upon 3e or 4e. 3e after all was obvious in how it built upon 1e and 2e. D&D has obvious progressions as well with 4e being the one that was wildly out of whack with 1-5. The World of Darkness again has obvious learning curves in revisions a development and even the nWoD or CoD that came afterwards built upon a theme and concepts consistently.

As for randomness... Modifiable dice pools and TNs from a wide array variance. "Gambling" on situational modifiers instead of a "Luck" mechanic, isn't gambling it's called "simulation", which is a standard for any RPG that tries to be "gritty" which is why it works well for Cyberpunk but you don't see it in games like Feng-shui. SR had resource management and luck mechanics to though in its different pools. In fact the 5e Edge mechanic reduces the randomness as it provides a ready supplies of gateways to turn failure into successes.

Gee, it's almost like a lot of the people posting here have been playing since before 3e was the currently supported version, and have already done all that effort...