Human Rocker/Face.

I'm looking at David Bowie being a character in the Shadowrun world. Not him creating a character to play ingame.

I think he would actually be many clones but at least one would be an AI.

A David Bowie Album

If anyone, Billie Idol would be an AI.

I'd argue they didn't even infiltrate Aztech, the Azzies were willing allies, whereas the UB was taken over. But anyway, the obvious difference is what would have come after the advance party, namely a full invasion rather than Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

On the other hand, those spirits in the White House artwork do look a bit like bugs...and then there is the "something evil in the Resonance" part, which meshes neither with bugs nor Horrors...so maybe all three at once, because if you are already jumping the shark, why not double down on it?



@Sendaz:

That was my first thought as well, I in one's IP and A anytime...but Fast-Talk and Palming are marked (A), that does not make sense.


Don't be silly. Cat-apults, scorpions, rams and other siege weapons are obviously used with Animal Handling

OK, seriously: Grouping "repairing drones" and "shooting stuff with drones" together makes a certain sense, because people who know how to do one of those things will usually also know the other. Just naming the result "Engineering" makes no sense at all.

I can kind of see Palming as an Anytime as it is minor movement, but yeah Fast Talk needs at least a few seconds of talking to sway/befuddle/convince someone.


*Stares in Star Trek*

Makes sense I think.
If only to get the test out of the weapons skill all together and makes using the drone an abstraction or virtualization of the real activity. A real weapons skill can be an assisted test.
Repair and using can be considered tool use which is logical.
Which also can mean Engineering can be used for things like software, building or physical modifications of electronics, one can hope.

Well, listened to a couple of the podcasts and learned to things, I still hate podcasts and it's The Enemy. Terrors, Crawlers, Horror Marks, feeding on emotions...and for good measure, some guy leading a bunch of Seelie refers to them as "the enemy".

I don't really understand the podcast craze either. I mean, it's okay if you want something to listen to while doing overland drives, but as a medium to transmit information it just sucks. A text is way more efficient in that than a podcast.

Of course, unless you're an Iconerate.

Yep, I should have said " I still hate podcasts if there's no transcript or text form" -- it's not that the medium itself, just that I have to put up with it...


Sooo, some text-based summary of stuff going on:

Chicago: Had a Horror doing its thing, but it got contained and according to Streetpedia, that particular Horror didn't come over just now, but was already there for some time


DC: Named as gone dark by Glitch, somebody claiming to be Kay St. Irregular also send messages to that effect, but later another Kay St. Irregular says he wasn't even there, plus Bull and Slamm-0! say the reports are fake. Then again, we have an artwork of the White House under attack, surrounded by a cityscape that seems to be blacked out except the Ares tower..https://i.imgur.com/txIHG2L.jpg

Detroit: Glitch mentions "all the noise in Detroit". It also has its own podcast, but...podcast

Dover: Lyran is there, says her spirits refuse to go out because of "corruption"

Nashville: Glitch reports "I've got two different feeds streaming in front of me right now. One of them shows rioting in Nashville. The other one shows normal nighttime traffic in Nashville, with the whole city looking peaceful."

Newark: Named as gone dark by Glitch

Philly: Named as gone dark by Glitch

St. Louis: Named as gone dark by Glitch, corroborated by drone footage from Glitch, which shows "something" moving only visible against the backdrop of the night sky, and somebody with tentacles for a face getting thrown out of a window.

Somewhere in the matrix: Netcat went catatonic and is rambling about "Deep. Deep. Underneath. Under. Underneath." and "Deep. Underneath. Rising.". Let's just call it Computhulhu awakening, probably by the blackouts like Fuchi shutting down woke up Mirage.

At some point, Aztechnology history was to be much more subtle and interesting than that. The corporation was initially funded and run by druglords, who supported an aztec-inspired traditionalist political platform. The blood mages faction gained a lot of power within Aztechnology and Aztlan, but according to Corporate Download, after Darke/Oscuro failure, the other factions onboard were nonetheless able to start a purge and force them into hiding. Per Corporate Guide, blood mages were rare and no longer calling the shots, at least openly, with hint of a new secret leader. As far as I can tell, it's War! that completely walked back on this, with the mention of Aztlan fielding a blood mage battalion in Colombia, and similar open display of blood magic since.

I can only guess coding software, aka software engineering, is nonetheless part of the Electronics skill rather than Engineering. Had they labelled those skills "Rigging" and "Decking", the point would have been somewhat clearer.

For thirty years, Shadowrun has tried to have a skill-based system (rather than class-based) and some level of role protection at the same time. Many debates about SR rules, karma vs. nuyen, "Magicrun", technomancer vs. hacker, the cost of cyberdecks, the breakup of the firearm skill... are just different facet of that fundamental problem. All skills have the same cost but they have different value, depending on what role they're used for. By streamlining the number of skills while still enforcing role protection, skills start more and more to look like "class ability".

APEX? Though I thought that was the German Berlin metaplot. Or maybe Alice. Or the Null.

i figured it was related to the fact that nobody knows how the hell the entire basis of the matrix works is about to become significant.

because after all, what i really wanted was for them to double down on the stupidity of deciding to just base the key supporting pillar of everything of danged near anything of value in the world on something that nobody understands and which just happens to be kicking around after repeated multiple worldwide crashes that are caused by the previous incarnations of the matrix being suborned by rogue godlike AIs. that totally sounded like a course of action that would be reasonable for the world's largest corporations that essentially benefit from stability and stand to lose everything from everything going to hell back when they first introduced the idea, so obviously it should continue to be front row centre rather than pretending like it never happened. [/sarcasm]

Chasing up on this, Opti did say the following:

Optimistic Chad: And I'll.just say the terror plotline in the podcasts is not an official plotline. It was an unused area, that's why I ran with it. I wouldn't expect a full on terror plot tied to 6th.

-------------------

So at least we don't have to expect a major Terror plot line for 6th to contend with, it was more a spot bit of storyline. Which is kind of good as after Shedim, Bugs and CFD, it would be nice to start off the new edition without the immediate Big Bad.

So bugs.

I hope so (so thanks for the heads up, Sendaz), but given all that stuff about "Elder Gods" in recent books and that tentacle face I'm still a bit skeptical...

Yeah, the current writers' idiocy appears to be turning into Call of C'thulhu via Matrix, all because not a one of them knows enough about computers to explain how the Internet works with the assistance of Google for research, or the presence of mind to talk to anyone who does.

Anyway, all of this will tie nicely in my current homebrew campaign.

Well, in my campaign, "CFD" is virus based on the skillsoft code that makes you "know you know," which Neonet and Eurotronics tried to weaponize as a HUMINT tool to make someone gullible about everything he's told. The virus does spread through the nanomachines that are used to maintain datajack and other DNI in an unontrolled fashion, because almost none of the manufacturers of cyberware maintenance equipment used in cyberclinics properly implemented the recommanded standard for wiping memory cache between patients (Eurotronics actually was the only corp to properly do so, leading their engineers to believe it should work that way with other brands).

The result is an epidemy of people believing and supporting conspiracy theories, like "Amazonia and Aztlan went to war over carnivorous trees," "the Corporate Court has sold Mars to a group of AI", "Celedyr is using Neonet money to be elected 'king of all dragons'", "new Matrix protocols were implemented to justify a price hike on hacking gear", "I am controlled by AI living inside nanomachines", "the Turkish nationalist are actually manipulated by the Armenian mob" and so on. A growing number of users of Jackpoint are infected, as well as people within corporate management and intelligence services.

Have a great Independence Day!

See, that? That's smart, and interesting; although in the wrong hands it could turn Shadowrun into Alpha Complex.

@ Nath Nice!

Have you read High Aztech by Ernest Hogan? Not an SR novel, but a fair cyberpunk book. Premise is several nations develop a virus that basically rewrites peoples brains to make them more religious via hallucinating they are speaking with their various gods, which in turns makes them more loyal to the nation backing said mythos.
Of course each nation preprograms their own particular mythology into it, the protagonist gets infected with an Aztec mythos and chatters away to his patron goddess, but it could easily have been down by nanites for similar purposes.

Magic in 6th comment dropped

https://www.shadowrunsixthworld.com/2019/07...35rLvcaSGgxmerI


Be interesting to see what they do with reagents now that limits are gone and Force isn't declared, will they help reduce Drain or boost effects...

I suspect Edge will be the new Force factor and will give you a choice to overcast. You can regain some Edge as soon at it is used now so after a few spell actions you can be back to full after burning all of it.

or after getting shot at while wearing heavy armour, or shooting at someone with crappy armour. those will also enable you to overcast. or maybe if you do enough backflips with a synthacardium boosting you (they've indicated a number of augmentations give edge, so i'm not feeling too optimistic about the chances that performing otherwise useless acrobatics in the middle of anything else won't give you edge if you've got the right 'ware).

Yet, the alternative.....
The same character performing the same moves, and nothing that evades damage is useless, doing so while jacked up on some drug with all the initiative bonuses......
Is an Elite?
Because Nobody else, at least nobody else not willing to destroy their essense has a chance to even attempt the same let alone survive the encounter?
Because their go to skills are useless due to limits and expensive Edge?
At least now any character has a better chance to tip the balance by just doing what they do best.

given a choice between a system where wearing heavy armour makes you better at everything (but only so long as you're getting shot at, otherwise you'll be no better than anyone else) and a system that encourages you to cyber up for combat in a CYBERpunk game, i'm gonna take the one that encourages me to cyber up, thanks.

of course, this is a false decision you're presenting me with here, because there is a system that does not feature stupid edge OR stupid limits. which is why you'll notice i didn't say i'd choose the one with limits in it, but rather the one that encourages you to cyber up. there's nothing wrong with 4th edition that isn't already wrong with 5th edition, and frankly i'm expecting to find out that there's nothing wrong with 4th edition that isn't also wrong with 6th edition either, so if the devs want to win me over to 6th edition they're going to need to avoid adding a lot of stupidity to it. so far, the edge rules i've seen are doing a good job of persuading me that i probably won't need to go very far into this new edition before deciding that i can wait for 7th edition (or later).

as i've said earlier, i'll probably buy the core rule book eventually just to get a better look at the full thing. but so far, the stuff they're so proud to show off makes me want to update *less* than i would have been before seeing it.

I see you didn't mention 3rd Edition. Is that the one you like?
And, if Edge and Limits were not in the game you would have to still deal with the loss of Essence which would likely take on a more severe penalty.

Technically speaking, SR3 is the best edition there has ever been.
Highly impractical for playing though, for exactly the same reason.

Sorry, but how does that make any sense at all? Could you elaborate?
I mean, you're obviously talking about 5th, where limits are such a joke that the mechanic got removed again, and Essence loss was made more severe for some unfathomable reason.
But I'm not following your reasoning here in any way.

i like both 3rd and 4th better than 5th (and 6th, if the previews are giving me an accurate picture of things). i suspect i'd like 2nd better too, since it is rather similar to 3rd, but i'm not really familiar enough with it to say for certain. in any event, each of those editions have problems too, i'm just not convinced those problems are as much of an issue as 5th has, or as much of an issue as i am expecting 6th to have.

i'm not clear on why you think edge and limits inherently would make essence loss a worse thing, though. there isn't any particular reason why essence loss must be worse just because there are no limits or edge (note: i'm not opposed to edge, i'm opposed to edge as 6th edition handles it. edge isn't new to 6th edition, and frankly i think 6th edition's edge mechanic is the worst incarnation of edge/karma pool they've ever implemented).

Something of note here.

4th edition removed Karma Pool along with all the other Pools - Combat, Magic, Matrix, etc. Basically, adding attributes to skills was to replace the regular pools with fixed modifiers, while Edge was to replace the Karma Pool. On the other hand, the way you could use the pools to focus on offense or defense during Turn was at best replicated through the use of Edge.

Now, what 6th Edition calls "Edge" is quite different from the 4h and 5th Edition Edge, and as such also differs from the 1st, 2nd and 3rd edition Karma Pool. If anything, it should rather be considered as a merger of the Combat/Magic/Matrix pools of old.

I kind of see the concept of Karma Pools from 4th and Edge later as an expression of confidence. If you recieve karma or edge for successful actions with a degree difficultly, then they should be replenished quickly.
If not immediately like the Sixth World rules suggest.

they were never an expression of confidence. it has in the past been a combination of luck, skill, experience, determination, and other things that are not necessarily so clearly defined within the game. it is one thing to have some small element of morale thrown into the mix and another thing entirely to remove everything except for that... and it is even more silly for your confidence coming from wearing heavy armour to make you a better contortionist. and yet even more silly that your confidence in your stealth would *increase* when someone notices you and decides to shoot you.

i should also point out that the new system more or less kills off edge as a valuable and worthwhile attribute to spend points on. in earlier editions, an 8 edge individual would go into a run with 8 times as much edge as someone with 1 edge. in sixth edition, probably at most half, because they gain edge at the same rate and share the same cap anyways. not that 8 edge does anything anymore, given the cap in edge points is 7.

i suppose that will certainly have the result of making metatypes a lot more common. why bother being human when every other race can spend their bonus priority points on actual useful attributes, in addition to having other advantages like increased attribute caps, while the human is stuck spending those points on something that has extremely limited value at best?

So the the fact that Metahumans by design likely could not afford max Edge, likely because points were spent elsewhere.....
Makes Edge more viable as a a game mechanic? Interesting.
But a 2 to 1 Edge advantage for humans in Sixth World which I think will be common, in the new system will make that advantage so much more obvious.

If it affected your top max maybe, but everyone gets capped at 7.

Sure going into a scene cold means those with a higher edge can start the party rolling a bit faster, but players should be able to quickly turn the tide by taking strategic situational advantage.

Or players should be able to tactically be able to see their opening based on what they do best, and wait if necessary to affect the encounter without worrying about how much edge another character has or what metatype.

But can it be said that the mechanics of Edge more specifically when a character lacks a high edge count compared to say, a character with a full edge count can be considered eroding to the first's confidence if they always expect to be in that situation?

No.

Edge is a completely abstract catchall mechanic.

Edge and Karma Pool represented the unknown quality of "Luck" in a universe where Karma as a spiritual or mystical concept had a direct impact on people's day to day existences. Confidence had nothing to do with it.

I have read the descriptions of Karma and Edge in the rulebooks. And yes, the opinions on my mention of confidence are true, it is not part of the explaination of what the latter are abstracting.
That is not what I was speaking of. I was thinking of the the real player's reaction if they are faced with such problems to solve.
Can, Will such a situation effect the person's real confidence in a negative way thus effecting the decision making of the real person while playing?

well, first of all, humans are heavily disincentivised to max edge. so i doubt 2 to 1 will be more common at all. in fact, it is heavily disincentivized for ANYONE to max edge, because you have the same cap, and no matter what, you gain it at the same rate. a 7 to 1 advantage in edge attribute likely only means a 2 to 1 advantage in how much edge you have. in contrast, a 7 to 1 advantage in body attribute will likely represent close to that same ratio advantage on soak rolls.

building for edge is a bad idea. that doesn't make edge more viable as pretty much anything except as a completely nonsensical arbitrary method of converting being "good" at one thing into being good at anything else on the face of the planet with no rhyme or reason, even extending to things where being good at that one thing should logically make you *worse* at the other thing.




well, you're probably right that they won't worry about how much edge attribute another character has, because it's probably going to be the same no matter what race they are. humans will most likely just not be able to meaningfully spend bonus attribute points gained from putting race higher, which is more likely to mean lower attributes overall. if attributes weren't just about the most powerful thing to have in shadowrun, that could work out, of course, but since each point of attributes are worth so much it essentially means the average human will just be rolling less dice in normal situations because they only had one good source of attributes, not two.

meanwhile, the guy with 7 edge is not in fact better able to hold back and wait; he's already capped, so if he wants to make use of the resource of gaining edge, he needs to spend it immediately. it's the person with mediocre edge who can stand back and let the edge roll in if necessary.



unlikely. they still gain current edge points in exactly the same way, and have the exact same cap, plus the value of each individual point of current edge has gone way down as a result of needing multiple points to accomplish what a single point could do in the past. having 7 edge at the start of a fight likely won't let you do a huge amount more than having 3 or so starting edge.

but seriously, it's really starting to look like you haven't actually familiarized yourself with the rules information we have available. it feels like you're spouting random assertions based on blind assumptions more than anything else. have you even looked through the available resources to find out about the things we already know in 6e? not the stuff where the designers make wild claims about how awesome its going to be, i mean actual direct answers about how the rules work. i don't care if hardy *thinks* edge is the bee's knees, i care about what the actual rules say, and the rules they've described do not accomplish the things you seem to think they accomplish.

So, Because I don't echo your opinions about someting I must be misinformed?
If you don't like some aspect of the game's rules then that's your problem. Obviously you don't like the concept of edge or limits or how it's been implemented in the past. And you go through great lengths and multi paragraph posts to insist that something is broken, Again your problem.
Do not associate your directed verbal rants at developers and such with me.
I just happen to like the game and I appreciate what the developers are doing, my opinion.
This does not make me an authority any more than your wordy degradations make you the expert on the topic.
So just try to chill out and have a civil discussion or leave the issue alone.

i am suggesting you are misinformed because your opinion doesn't match the facts.

you claim that someone with high edge can just take it easy when in actual *fact* the only way for them to get *anything* out of their high edge is to immediately go full tryhard.

you claim that humans getting around twice as much edge for 7 times the investment is a powerful option when it is plainly far less powerful than it should be.

you claim that someone with high edge can just go into a fight confidence as a player when it has already been extensively demonstrated that high edge attribute means very little.

you claim that my problem with edge and limits are how it was handled in the past, when in fact it is the exact opposite and i think that this new future version of edge is going to be the absolute worst implementation of it ever.

you can certainly have the opinion that you like the changes that are coming, and that being subjective i can't say *that* is wrong. if you like them, you like them. but when you make assertions about how the rules work when they work in a clearly different way that has already been described and discussed, those aren't a matter of opinion, and you can be wrong.

*having flashbacks of Neurosis*

I've got to disagree here.
Edge is (mostly) luck, yes, but Karma Pool accumulated with rising experience, making it more than luck, but also a measure of that high experience.
Of course, raising Edge with earned Karma can approximate this, but since this is voluntary, and not automatic, there are distinct differences between the two.

Am I the only one one totally lost about what Jaid and Nstol are arguing about?

Not totally lost, have you been keeping up on the revised Edge and how it is operating for 6th?

I saw what was summarized here but only on what it could be used, not how it refreshes and stuff like that. Well, it sounded bad but I remain open minded.

I think I got too that armor grants edge. If that's the case, it looks even weirder.


A good concept is a concept that is easy to explain and clear.


I didn't got the arguments of both sides and about what they argue about. The quality of the Edge system on 6th? How it works? What is supposed to be Edge?

I'm lost.

A SR writer's comments on the combat changes:

https://www.shadowrunsixthworld.com/2019/07...-e4k9DsnZC9TwG0

Still not sold on the change to Armor, smacks of old THACO, but we will see.

That's THAC0, if you please.

Don't make me dig out all my old books to give you scholarly references. You wouldn't like me when I make scholarly references.

LOL,

Indeed, mea culpa.


Spell durations remain as before, ie Instant, Sustained or Permanent.
Rumours of some Manipulation spells getting a durations appear to be incorrect, which is kind of a shame as I was hoping to see things like Armor and a few other spells getting durations would have been handy.