Here's a test for you guys. A rogue AI wants to be free from his prison, so he contracts some unwitting runners to help him bring his plan to fruitation.
So am I talking about Brainscan or Neuromancer, the "first" cyberpunk novel? Food for thought.
The Abstruse One
Full Version: Shadowrun past it's prime?
There has been a raise in power levels and there has been more supernatural elements included in time. But that process is still slow and its just a continuation of a process that went on during the time of 2nd ed. The tech gets better and the level of magic is raised, its all part of the metaplot.
I don´t see anything that suggests that Shadowrun will ever be turned into high fantasy. The truth is that if you wanted to truely play a high level campain were the characters actually influenced the metaplot you would have to patch toghether and guess a lot of the background stuff. There´s still nothing in plain text even suggesting the posibility of doing so. And the kids who expect to be able to kill a dragon probably just played to much D&D. (although I wouldn´t say it´s imposible, with a lot of planning and luck they might succeed. I don´t like when the GM just sets his head on making something imposible for the characters).
My opinion is that the new stuff is actually better than the old stuff, probably because the writers have such a wealth of material to work from now. And saying what you want about the art, but if it looked like 1st and 2nd ed nobody but the fans would buy it.
I don´t see anything that suggests that Shadowrun will ever be turned into high fantasy. The truth is that if you wanted to truely play a high level campain were the characters actually influenced the metaplot you would have to patch toghether and guess a lot of the background stuff. There´s still nothing in plain text even suggesting the posibility of doing so. And the kids who expect to be able to kill a dragon probably just played to much D&D. (although I wouldn´t say it´s imposible, with a lot of planning and luck they might succeed. I don´t like when the GM just sets his head on making something imposible for the characters).
My opinion is that the new stuff is actually better than the old stuff, probably because the writers have such a wealth of material to work from now. And saying what you want about the art, but if it looked like 1st and 2nd ed nobody but the fans would buy it.
I personally like the metaplot as it is now. It gives me more to work with and I see my PCs in the game as sort of Jack Ryans in Red Rabbit - there but not there if you get my meaning.
Okay, the adult dragon thing I mentioned before is because then I've seen them portrayed, they have been portrayed as very smart, very strong, but still vulnerable creatures; they are the opposition in several notable places I can think of, foremost in my mind being Geyswain of Bottled Demon (although, admittedly, since I have a cloudy memory of that, I can't remember if the elven assassin or Arleesh play a part in the final confrontation there) and Haesslich. However, I tend to run lower-fantasy games of Shadowrun, where the supernatural is somewhat toned down, so dragons are considerably less powerful than they are in default Shadowrun, so yeah....maybe that is a little over the top. Still, I don't see any problem having a dragon as the ultimate villian of a campaign, orchestrating things behind the scenes, with the end being a final confrontation.
I'd have to agree with Synner that cyberpunk has never been centered on the local; it's been centered on the people who aren't the corporate executives or wage-slaves, living comfortably in their corporate arcologies. If that is all taking place in one city (keeping in mind that in Neuromancer, everything between Baltimore and Atlanta was "one city"), or taking place around the world, in orbit, and on Mars, it's all still good. Cyberpunk has always been more about atmosphere and style than anything else, and I think SoNA and other recent examples have been good efforts at keeping that and making the world believable at the same time.
I'd have to agree with Synner that cyberpunk has never been centered on the local; it's been centered on the people who aren't the corporate executives or wage-slaves, living comfortably in their corporate arcologies. If that is all taking place in one city (keeping in mind that in Neuromancer, everything between Baltimore and Atlanta was "one city"), or taking place around the world, in orbit, and on Mars, it's all still good. Cyberpunk has always been more about atmosphere and style than anything else, and I think SoNA and other recent examples have been good efforts at keeping that and making the world believable at the same time.
| QUOTE (Connor) |
| The only difference in the Shadowrun of today with that of the 1st and 2nd editions is the world "we" live in, and how that affects what we see in the game. We're not living in the 80's anymore. Japan isn't going to buy up the world these days. We're seeing real people test real cyberware. We're living in a different age, and that changes how we react to the fantasy and cyberpunk of Shadowrun. |
For me Shadowrun will always be 80s, which is fine by me because the 80s are so much fun.
The way I see it, physads are the 80s epitomized. They are Van Damme in Bloodsport.
When you say "shadowrunner", one of the images that pops into my mind is a guy with a mullet, a black leather jacket, and an Ares Predator.
| QUOTE |
| I don´t see anything that suggests that Shadowrun will ever be turned into high fantasy. The truth is that if you wanted to truely play a high level campain were the characters actually influenced the metaplot you would have to patch toghether and guess a lot of the background stuff. |
Survival of the Fittest, Renraku Arcology: Shutdown, Brainscan, Harlequinn's Back... they all involve influencing the metaplot to one degree or the other, the first one especially. For crying out loud, you determine who becomes the most powerful dragon in the world in SotF! It's absolutely ridiculous. The metaplot deserves to remain in the background and only influencing games subtly and far in the distance of the actual game itself. If an individiual group wants to involve the metaplot directly, they're free to, but the baseline should stick to the more gritty, street-level audience its supposed to reflect. At least that's my opinion on the subject.
I've heard comments from freelancers that Mike (or is it Rob? I always get them confused) keeps saying that they're intending to return the game to its street-level roots for quite some time now, but there's been so very little evidence of this in the published modules to date. Sprawl Survival Guide gives me some hope, but I'm not holding my breath. I really hope my pessimism on this topic is proven wrong in the long run. I really do.
The metaplot is great. It's what makes the game world thrive. The designers and writers simply need to remember that its background and fluff material to make the setting more alive, not something that needs (let alone should) be directly incorporated into everything they do. It just seems like they lost their way somewhere along the line and either don't realize it or don't want to put the effort into correcting it.
It's Rob. Mike's been working for WizKids.
Survival of the Fittest and Dragons of the Sixth World are pretty much the last books that were planned under Mike's stint as developer. The actual direction they took, the writing and editing and such, were done according to Rob's direction, however. The books since then are more in line with what Rob has wanted to see in the Shadowrun world.
While more Shadows books are still planned to flesh out the entire world and make it possible for jetsetting, they are and can also be used to play out Shadowrun games entirely in those locations with the runners as locals. (The Seattle sprawl isn't the only place that you'll find runners, of course.) Other books are also trying to focus upon street-level play. So yes, it's still 'full steam ahead' on the back-to-the-streets approach.
Survival of the Fittest and Dragons of the Sixth World are pretty much the last books that were planned under Mike's stint as developer. The actual direction they took, the writing and editing and such, were done according to Rob's direction, however. The books since then are more in line with what Rob has wanted to see in the Shadowrun world.
While more Shadows books are still planned to flesh out the entire world and make it possible for jetsetting, they are and can also be used to play out Shadowrun games entirely in those locations with the runners as locals. (The Seattle sprawl isn't the only place that you'll find runners, of course.) Other books are also trying to focus upon street-level play. So yes, it's still 'full steam ahead' on the back-to-the-streets approach.
| QUOTE (Misfit Toy) |
| The metaplot deserves to remain in the background and only influencing games subtly and far in the distance of the actual game itself. If an individiual group wants to involve the metaplot directly, they're free to, <snip> The metaplot is great. It's what makes the game world thrive. The designers and writers simply need to remember that its background and fluff material to make the setting more alive, not something that needs (let alone should) be directly incorporated into everything they do. It just seems like they lost their way somewhere along the line and either don't realize it or don't want to put the effort into correcting it. |
Have to agree. I like the metaplot, I just don't like feeling I'm getting hit over the head with it all the time.
Uh, then don't use it? The Gaming Police wont come round and hold a gun to your head to force you to.
No one said they would.
Wait, they won't?
They won't. They all got laid off back when FASA shut down, and FanPro hasn't replaced them yet.
IIRC, there's a quote somewhere saying that an adult Dragon is about as dangerous as a modern (for Shadowrun) fighter plane. Very far from insurmountable, but still pretty dangerous to runners. With proper planning, surprise, and enough ATGMs, they're extremely killable. The key is remembering that most Dragons are capable of keeping the players from properly planning or surprising them.
~J
IIRC, there's a quote somewhere saying that an adult Dragon is about as dangerous as a modern (for Shadowrun) fighter plane. Very far from insurmountable, but still pretty dangerous to runners. With proper planning, surprise, and enough ATGMs, they're extremely killable. The key is remembering that most Dragons are capable of keeping the players from properly planning or surprising them.
~J
And Great Dragons will kill you and the total stranger next to you because they divined that you were going to take a swipe at them later in the week, and you don't even know who they are yet. Damn. 
Either that or Sirrurg will kill the total stranger next to you who is an IE who did a bit too much downtime hunting, and you'll get caught in the crossfire.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Misfit Toy @ Jun 28 2004, 03:23 PM) |
| I've heard comments from freelancers that Mike (or is it Rob? I always get them confused) keeps saying that they're intending to return the game to its street-level roots for quite some time now, but there's been so very little evidence of this in the published modules to date. Sprawl Survival Guide gives me some hope, but I'm not holding my breath. I really hope my pessimism on this topic is proven wrong in the long run. I really do. |
I honestly suggest you take a peak at Shadows of Europe and the upcoming Loose Alliances before you make pass final judgement on the direction development is going. There's more goodness down the line too.
However I would like to reiterate, street-level doesn't necessarily equate to "neighborhood".
Using a plug from my regular game: I've been running a playtest campaign set in Europe for the past couple of months and the (veteran) players are playing new characters: they're a street-level crew working the European theatre (which is you'll find is more 'transnational' than North Am). They're only pulling intrigue heavy, gritty "street-level" runs (ie. no dragons, cyberzombies, IEs or megacorp execs in sight... okay, not entirely true, Spinrad makes an appearance, but he's a hands on kind of guy
). They were used to the squallor of the Redmond and Puyallup Barrens, they were very graphically introduced to the horrors of Bug City, but they were still shocked by how down and dirty things got in Poland. Sometimes a change of local can be enough necessary, no power level increase, no uber-threats and without losing the street-level style of play.
Agreed, but you might want to take a peek at them rather than carrying them to the top of a mountain 
~J
~J
Serves me right for not going over the post...
Sounds interesting Peter. Since SoE is meant to be coming out soon, ever considered putting some information about it online?
| QUOTE (Black Isis) |
| Okay, the adult dragon thing I mentioned before is because then I've seen them portrayed, they have been portrayed as very smart, very strong, but still vulnerable creatures; they are the opposition in several notable places I can think of, foremost in my mind being Geyswain of Bottled Demon (although, admittedly, since I have a cloudy memory of that, I can't remember if the elven assassin or Arleesh play a part in the final confrontation there) |
Geyswain isn't a great, he was/is barely an adult. He was also not at the peak of his performance by a the time the runners arrive in his lair. He's in a "bad way", making him capable of being dealt with by a group of runners with "normal" weapons. Also, yes, the two you mentioned do make appearances, and are available if things get too hairy for the PC's.
I kind of thought it was a neat way to use a dragon as an adversary. You're PC's could, and really should, walk out of the confrontation thinking "that one is supposed to be young? And sick? And he still did that to us? What's a Great Dragon like?!"
Yes, I know Geyswain wasn't a Great....that was my whole point. I was saying that he was vulnerable in the conventional sense. Both he and Haesslich are dealt with by people who are not demigod-like in power (in other words, Great Dragons or Immortal Elves). Even Great Dragons seem to be somewhat vulnerable -- Night's Pawn does feature the "death" of Alamais, although that appears to be....uh, less than permanent.
Shadowrun is definitely past its prime. I don't think it's because of "metaplot" or anything like that. Part of it probably IS the production; I mean, the main items on the upcoming releases section of the Shadowrun website for the past YEAR have been re-releases of material that weren't even originally released by Fanpro. That does not speak of a well-oiled machine.
But the primary reason I think it's past its prime is because, well, cyberpunk is long past its prime. Cyberpunk was a child of the 80s, built on anxieties and fears that are really kind of alien in the contemporary world. We don't feel the threat of impending nuclear war. We don't feel the same economic pressures of the early 80s, still reeling from stagflation. We don't have the same fear of Japanese corporations, who have been shown to be just as vulnerable as any company. The internet is not mysterious and frightening; it's something my grandmother uses. The problem with Shadowun is perhaps that it has adapted all too well to the changing times. When I read the Sprawl Survival Guide's lifestyles section, and read about widespread acceptance of gays, lesbians, transgendereds, etc., I realized how far Shadowrun had drifted from its neurotic origins. It may be realistic that in 50 years, no one will care much about alternative sexualities, but it's too idealistic for Shadowrun. And perhaps too realistic, as well.
But the primary reason I think it's past its prime is because, well, cyberpunk is long past its prime. Cyberpunk was a child of the 80s, built on anxieties and fears that are really kind of alien in the contemporary world. We don't feel the threat of impending nuclear war. We don't feel the same economic pressures of the early 80s, still reeling from stagflation. We don't have the same fear of Japanese corporations, who have been shown to be just as vulnerable as any company. The internet is not mysterious and frightening; it's something my grandmother uses. The problem with Shadowun is perhaps that it has adapted all too well to the changing times. When I read the Sprawl Survival Guide's lifestyles section, and read about widespread acceptance of gays, lesbians, transgendereds, etc., I realized how far Shadowrun had drifted from its neurotic origins. It may be realistic that in 50 years, no one will care much about alternative sexualities, but it's too idealistic for Shadowrun. And perhaps too realistic, as well.
| QUOTE (otaku mike @ Jun 27 2004, 07:31 PM) |
| Squire, did it occure to you that many of the freelancers responsible for the recent writings are not new to the game, oblivious to its "grand" past? |
Yes, that has occurred to me. I respect and appreciate the decision to utilize freelancers who are also fans. Using Freelances is very good decision, one which has benefited the game and the players.
But also
| QUOTE |
| The discussions of the freelancers and the developper are sometimes tough |
As you say yourself- the freelancer and developer have to come to an agreement about what goes into a game supplement. In the end, the developer has final say on the directions things take.
Please understand- I'm not attacking the work of freelancers. A lot of it has been really good work.
None of that changes the simple fact that I do not enjoy the direction the game has taken.
Understand- my problem is not with the rules- it’s with the marketing and support of the game- which is heavily focused on munchkin cartoon style SR.
There have been some very good developments in the game as well. But the marketing and support favors too heavily a style I do not enjoy. Accordingly, I find the game unappealing.
Some people appear to be offended that I don't like the new direction of the game. That's okay- it's their game. But let’s all understand each other here- they like it and that's great for them. I don't.
It comes down to personal preference. No one is going to convince anyone else to change their preferences.
However, I had many years of enjoyment from SR, so I wish to express my preferences. We should all express our preferences so that the game developers and writers have information to work with- and I would like to see Shadowrun regain it’s original feel- which is why I’m taking the time to voice my reasons for leaving.
| QUOTE |
| the "bigger, faster, stronger" trap |
This is one of the problems that recent Shadowrun has suffered. It's one of the things that I dislike. Efforts to avoid it are appreciated, but there have been sufficient cases to cause me distaste toward the game in which such efforts were either not made or were unsuccessful.
“Bigger, faster, stronger” has become a staple of SR development and in many cases it has reached ridiculous levels.
| QUOTE |
| Playing with dragons is something that was hinted at for years, and while it was not developped in an adventure until SotF |
Utilizing dragons is something that should be done. Dragons of the Sixth World was well done and useful. Survival of the Fittest was ridiculous.
There is a huge difference between providing uber-plot materials or uber-character information and actually publishing adventures in which lowly shadowrunners are involved directly in the near-god-level power players and can win without even being challenged.
| QUOTE |
| I'd rather believe that the average player did change, and that includes the players of Shadowrun. |
I believe that I addressed that clearly and fairly. That does not alter the simple fact that Shadowrun has changed. I acknowledge the likely reasoning (and probable necessity) for the change, but it is not the same game that I know and love- hence my impending departure.
| QUOTE |
| You're not happy with the new trend in the roleplayers, but you can't blame Shadowrun for being responsible for that. |
This fact is- I do not enjoy the changes and am therefore no longer playing. Where the fault lies is irrelevant. I no longer enjoy the game- therefore ceasing to play it is a more than reasonable decision on my part (as is voicing my reasons for ceasing to play).
Okay, moving on.
I’m replying to some other posts here. We can agree to disagree about if changes exist and where they come from, but the simple fact remains- I don’t like where Shadowrun has gone.
For the benefit of the freelancers and members of the development team, I will provide some additional details on why I feel that way.
I’m not trying to attack anyone here. I’m just stating my preferences.
| QUOTE |
| Abtruse wrote: Some 1st Ed adventures examples for you guys... |
Abtruse, I site several of the examples that you provided as strong evidence of the significant difference between prior editions of Shadowrun and the current course.
I will add some clarifications to illustrate my point.
| QUOTE |
| Harlequin: Working for and against IEs. |
As pawns in their grander game, and never in a position to oppose them directly. And I don’t recall Harlequin involving a cake-walk into any place that should be highly secured.
| QUOTE |
| Dragonhunt: Working for an adult Western dragon. |
An adult dragon with amnesia. Also an adult (as opposed to a great). Not a cake-walk, and not set up to be in direct opposition with the dragon.
| QUOTE |
| Now some 3rd Ed adventures... |
| QUOTE |
| Wake of the Comet: Hired by some megacorp to sabotage a research project by competitors. |
Breaking into ultra secured environments such as a space-launch facility and a partially submerged archeology on a private island. We’re talking about some of the most secured locations in the game world- and not written as any more challenging than breaking into an everyday R&D lab for a barely extraterritorial corporation.
The prime example I’m surprised wasn’t cited is Harliquin’s Back.
HB is definitely an uber-adventure- Save the world and all that. But written as a pinnacle adventure for a campaign and written in a way that lets the PCs influence the game world in a believable manner- they are a part of the program, but some effort was made to explain why they are involved and their involvement does not include cake-walk runs against uber-opponents (as WotC or SotF do) or direct opposition to uber-opponents.
HB is also a one-shot deal- the first Big One. It’s reasonable to have “The Big One.” Notice the word “The.” Too many Big Ones changes the game- and we’ve had too many Big Ones (not to mention the relative ease of the newer Big Ones).
Which brings me to a related point- the “not another one” objection.
I was good with Bugs, and good with Horrors, and good with a lot of stuff. But at some point (and for me it started with the “other” column of metahumans in Companion and went way over the top with the Comet era), there were too many New Weird Things introduced.
The difference between Bugs & Shedim? Not a lot frankly. Comparable levels of believability and threat, similar approach (an approach I like BTW- here is the threat, you can deal with it, but not get rid of it). The problem is- its too many New Weird Things. SR strayed from fantasy meets cyberpunk to Bizarro-World. When I want Bizarro-World, I play Over the Edge.
When you introduce a few New Weird Things, you’re fleshing out the game-world. At some point you’ve introduced too many New Weird Things and the game-world strays too far from what it was intended.
New Weird Things that fall into the “too many” category for me include Shedim, Sub-species of metahumans, and Surge.
I recognize that you can’t play on the old plot lines forever. However the SR universe has more than enough to play on without having to introduce the “new uber threat of the month.”
| QUOTE |
| CircuitBoyBlue Point is, just because you think everything new sucks doesn't mean you have to stop playing, just that you won't be spending money on anything new. The beauty of role-playing games is that you only need to buy sourcebooks once, in theory; once you have them you can keep them and use them for an infinite number of games. |
Not “everything” new sucks, just enough of it to disrupt my interest in the game. The rest of the above quote is true. However…
| QUOTE |
| The only reason to move on is because YOU'VE run out of ideas. FASA/FanPro running out of good ideas isn't an excuse. |
That is a baseless assumption and completely untrue. The sad and simple fact is that I have lost interest.
I can’t think of a better “excuse” to stop playing a game than that.
| QUOTE |
| Connor It is easy to sneak into Hestaby's lair because she hired you to sneak into it! It's a test for her to see how the team operates and in a location that gives her extreme control to modify the situation as she sees fit. |
I harp a lot on SotF, because it is the greatest (not the only) example of everything I dislike- so I felt I should address this one.
Hestaby is a very smart creature- arguable among the smartest and wisest of the SR universe. If Hestaby intends to involve the runners in a conflict on the magnitude of power she’s playing on, she needs to test them on something close to that magnitude.
Testing them with a highly controlled cake-walk doesn’t tell her a thing about their ability to get the jobs she needs done in the coming conflict.
However, it does give them at least limited access to her primary lair- and with no real benefit to her. Sorry, but I just can’t buy into that one.
| QUOTE |
| Synner I honestly suggest you take a peak at Shadows of Europe and the upcoming Loose Alliances before you make pass final judgement on the direction development is going. There's more goodness down the line too. |
Frankly, I’ve been disappointed in SR for a while now.
Your post gives me hope, but frankly- I’m a bit past the “wait a little longer to see what direction things take” stage. I’ve already done that for quite a while.
That’s not to say that I will never return to SR. If SR someday returns to a course that appeals to me, I might pick it back up (assuming I know about it- I feel no obligation to keep up on it after so long a period of disappointment). For now, I am not happy with the game and therefore moving on.
@Squire:
I just want to address two comments you made.
First, if you don't have a problem with Bugs and you have a problem with Shedim something is just wrong. I find Bugs and Horrors and such much more indicative of the 'cartoony' 'uber-power' stuff than I do the Shedim.
Second, I don't agree that WotC involves 'cake-runs'. At least, it wasn't carried out that way by the GM in my group that ran it for us. And sneaking into Hestaby's lair, on her account, doesn't have to be a cake-walk either. Furthermore, you don't have to make it a ridiculously difficult thing to do either. You can put them in a situation where they KNOW they're going up against a Great Dragon, and let that knowledge work its power. You provide enough resistance to make their fears manifest, and you see how they handle the stress and pressure of knowing they're invading a Great Dragon's lair.
That's ALL Hestaby needs to see if the team has what it takes to work for her. She doesn't have to pit them against the most powerful spirits and crap she can put in their way. The Rite is about intellect and proxies. The proxies can't be harmed. It's more about her moving the shadowrunners as pawns on a chessboard than the shadowrunners doing anything spectacular.
If you want to complain about SotF do it for that reason, and not because you perceive sneaking into Hestaby's lair a 'cake walk'. It's a test, a method used to see how the characters react under stress. She probably can't harm them under the rules of the Rite anyways, so she can't surround them with a bunch of crap and send them to an early grave as she would normal trespassers.
I just want to address two comments you made.
First, if you don't have a problem with Bugs and you have a problem with Shedim something is just wrong. I find Bugs and Horrors and such much more indicative of the 'cartoony' 'uber-power' stuff than I do the Shedim.
Second, I don't agree that WotC involves 'cake-runs'. At least, it wasn't carried out that way by the GM in my group that ran it for us. And sneaking into Hestaby's lair, on her account, doesn't have to be a cake-walk either. Furthermore, you don't have to make it a ridiculously difficult thing to do either. You can put them in a situation where they KNOW they're going up against a Great Dragon, and let that knowledge work its power. You provide enough resistance to make their fears manifest, and you see how they handle the stress and pressure of knowing they're invading a Great Dragon's lair.
That's ALL Hestaby needs to see if the team has what it takes to work for her. She doesn't have to pit them against the most powerful spirits and crap she can put in their way. The Rite is about intellect and proxies. The proxies can't be harmed. It's more about her moving the shadowrunners as pawns on a chessboard than the shadowrunners doing anything spectacular.
If you want to complain about SotF do it for that reason, and not because you perceive sneaking into Hestaby's lair a 'cake walk'. It's a test, a method used to see how the characters react under stress. She probably can't harm them under the rules of the Rite anyways, so she can't surround them with a bunch of crap and send them to an early grave as she would normal trespassers.
| QUOTE (Squire) |
| Some people appear to be offended that I don't like the new direction of the game. |
No, they get offended when you start labeling everything you dislike as cartoony and munchkin.
This thread has disolved into a string of posts from three seperate camps.
Those who like the metaplot.
Those who don't, but who can deal with and adapt to it in their own campaigns.
Those who are doing nothing but bitching and complaining.
I fall into the first camp myself. And though I may not agree with those members of the second camp, I can respect their opinions. However....
Would those people in the third camp.....shut the hell up. You constantly complain about the "cartoony" aspect of Shadowrun, but you have yet to come up with even one legitimate scrap of proof to those statements. So, how bout you come up with a few productive arguments, backed up with logical proof, instead of just constantly complaing. And I'm serious here. Fire back with all the venom you want, but I want some actual proof of this "cartoony" statement, or I'm gonna have Harlequin hunt every last one of you down!!
..........................Ok, maybe not. But I'd still like to see it.
Those who like the metaplot.
Those who don't, but who can deal with and adapt to it in their own campaigns.
Those who are doing nothing but bitching and complaining.
I fall into the first camp myself. And though I may not agree with those members of the second camp, I can respect their opinions. However....
Would those people in the third camp.....shut the hell up. You constantly complain about the "cartoony" aspect of Shadowrun, but you have yet to come up with even one legitimate scrap of proof to those statements. So, how bout you come up with a few productive arguments, backed up with logical proof, instead of just constantly complaing. And I'm serious here. Fire back with all the venom you want, but I want some actual proof of this "cartoony" statement, or I'm gonna have Harlequin hunt every last one of you down!!
..........................Ok, maybe not. But I'd still like to see it.
You know I've had it with this whole cartoony and munchkin crap. The whole game is cartoony and munchkin. Really. I'm a street sammy with move by wire. Makes me pretty much the Flash as far as joe public is concerned. I'm a troll with maxed out body and cyber giving me a body of 19. Pretty much invulnerable to most weapon fire, pretty damn hard to kill. OH WAIT theres more. Get this. There are elves and fairys. Oh yeah! OOH. OHH. OHH. And theres magic. For Christ sakes people if your going to suspend disbelief for any of the game how silly can anything they've come out with be. Get a f**king grip.
Do you want it to stagnate? How about 10 years passes and NOTHING changes. Its just been a little over 50 years since the awakening. How much do you think metahumanity knows about magic. Jeez we don't even know everything about science and we've been studying that a lot longer. Also technology should be progressing even faster. Remember the crash of '29 and all the chaos of the early awakinging? All the LOST technology and research? Well just having people who know a thing is possible or what path to follow to develop somthing helps a lot.
Cartoony and munchkiny. Pick up your shit, go home and don't play the God Damn game anymore.
Thanos
Do you want it to stagnate? How about 10 years passes and NOTHING changes. Its just been a little over 50 years since the awakening. How much do you think metahumanity knows about magic. Jeez we don't even know everything about science and we've been studying that a lot longer. Also technology should be progressing even faster. Remember the crash of '29 and all the chaos of the early awakinging? All the LOST technology and research? Well just having people who know a thing is possible or what path to follow to develop somthing helps a lot.
Cartoony and munchkiny. Pick up your shit, go home and don't play the God Damn game anymore.
Thanos
It's an attitude like that that's making a lot of people WANT to pack up their shit and not play shadowrun. A lot of the old-timers don't do anything anymore because they have real jobs/lives, etc, but I have to wonder how many of them are just disgusted by people coming in and being elitist enough to tell fans of 1st and 2nd editions that they don't deserve to play their beloved game anymore.
| QUOTE (CircuitBoyBlue) |
| It's an attitude like that that's making a lot of people WANT to pack up their shit and not play shadowrun. A lot of the old-timers don't do anything anymore because they have real jobs/lives, etc, but I have to wonder how many of them are just disgusted by people coming in and being elitist enough to tell fans of 1st and 2nd editions that they don't deserve to play their beloved game anymore. |
Get off your high horse. I'm not saying that you can't enjoy your beloved game anymore. Do whatever the hell you want in your own game. Like someone said, there aren't any gaming police.
What I do have a problem with is then coming on here and doing nothing but complain in a non constructive way, make comments about how "cartoony" Shadowrun has become, and pretty much tell the new generation they can't play Shadowrun the way they've come to like it.
Not really singaling you out there Circut Boy. But, that's really what I see. The old timers don't want us to tell them they can't play Shadowrun the way they're used to it, but did ANYONE stop and think that the new players, and the free lancers who are trying their best to make Shadowrun great, really resent that same elitist attitude some of the "old timers" throw our way?
People who like 1st and 2nd editions but don't like 3rd can still play Shadowrun, however, I think a lot of people around here feel that the complaints many of them make are pretty broad and baseless. Many things they accuse 3rd edition of being existed the whole time, it's just for some reason they put the blame on 3rd edition.
I've been playing shadowrun for around 10 years. I didn't read the novels, I didn't buy all of the adventures and sourcebooks, I didn't even know about a 'metaplot' for a long time. I didn't really start paying attention to a metaplot until the end of 2nd edition. Since then, I've been collecting all the books I wish I had bought back then.
I don't see anything more munchkiny about 3rd edition than 2nd edition. I remember when Cybertechnology came out. I remember thinking THAT was munchkiny, Move by Wire? WTF? Anyways, after the initial shock wore off, I saw it for the useless piece of ware it is, except for people who play munchkin characters, or GM's looking for a plot device. All was well again.
You can react like that to anything new in the game system, and call it 'cartoony' or 'munchkin', or you can take a step back and try to see why the developers introduced it, and how it fits into the world of Shadowrun. If all you see is 'cartoony' and 'munchkin', then I say the problem is you and not the game system or the world.
If you don't like 3rd Edition, don't play it, but you're the one missing out on a developing world. If you don't like 3rd edition don't bitch and moan about it, deal with it. If you dont' like 3rd Edition, write a proposal for a supplement and see if YOU can change the direction of the world. Or put together something like TSS for your alternate Shadowrun vision. Just don't bitch and moan. Especially when the bitching and moaning is shortsighted at best.
Sometimes in business some customers aren't worth having, they cost you too much time and effort to be worth pleasing. You have to learn to let them go annoy your competitors.
I've been playing shadowrun for around 10 years. I didn't read the novels, I didn't buy all of the adventures and sourcebooks, I didn't even know about a 'metaplot' for a long time. I didn't really start paying attention to a metaplot until the end of 2nd edition. Since then, I've been collecting all the books I wish I had bought back then.
I don't see anything more munchkiny about 3rd edition than 2nd edition. I remember when Cybertechnology came out. I remember thinking THAT was munchkiny, Move by Wire? WTF? Anyways, after the initial shock wore off, I saw it for the useless piece of ware it is, except for people who play munchkin characters, or GM's looking for a plot device. All was well again.
You can react like that to anything new in the game system, and call it 'cartoony' or 'munchkin', or you can take a step back and try to see why the developers introduced it, and how it fits into the world of Shadowrun. If all you see is 'cartoony' and 'munchkin', then I say the problem is you and not the game system or the world.
If you don't like 3rd Edition, don't play it, but you're the one missing out on a developing world. If you don't like 3rd edition don't bitch and moan about it, deal with it. If you dont' like 3rd Edition, write a proposal for a supplement and see if YOU can change the direction of the world. Or put together something like TSS for your alternate Shadowrun vision. Just don't bitch and moan. Especially when the bitching and moaning is shortsighted at best.
Sometimes in business some customers aren't worth having, they cost you too much time and effort to be worth pleasing. You have to learn to let them go annoy your competitors.
| QUOTE (Thanos007) |
| Jeez we don't even know everything about science and we've been studying that a lot longer. |
Fear not, I'm sure one day we'll know everything about everything in the whole universe.
| QUOTE (Dax) |
| Get off your high horse. I'm not saying that you can't enjoy your beloved game anymore. Do whatever the hell you want in your own game. Like someone said, there aren't any gaming police. |
| QUOTE |
You're right; you didn't tell me to stop playing Shadowrun. Thanos007 did. And I would say that you may also be right about there not being any gaming police, but a lot of people on this board often act like a lynch mob. I'm never one for telling people they can't play something just because of their attitude. But when I mention that my group has found a pretty good groove with Shadowrun that is almost completely contradictory to canon starting late in Second edition, people get up in arms. Despite having played shadowrun for an extremely long time, I was never really involved in "the community" a whole lot. So I don't know if there were people trying to shout out other players 10 years ago. But I know that if I were thinking of getting into a game, and I checked out the forums online only to find people telling other fans of the game to pack up their shit and go home, I probably wouldn't want to play that game out of fear that the only players I would be able to find would be total jackasses.
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
You don't like the metaplot? Don't use it. "But Survival of the Fittest has--" Shut up. There's a summary on the back of the book. Read it. Don't like what it has? Don't buy it. EVERY edition of Shadowrun has tried to balance fantasy and cyberpunk. I mean that's kinda the point of the game to start with. This thread seems to have degenerated down to typical flames of "I'm right!" "No, *I*'m right!" Guess what people? THESE ARE MATTERS OF OPINION!! There is no right or wrong when it comes to an opinion. There's just informed and misinformed. Many of the posts on here are from people misinformed.
Is Shadowrun cartoony? It can be, but it isn't solely by its nature. Is Shadowrun munchkiny? It can be, but only if you force it to be. Sure, I can tweak out a character until he's damn near invinsible. Try playing that character in a game, though. Unless what you're playing is a glorified game of Quake with no story and all combat, you get bored fast because your character has no personality. It's all numbers and no story.
I've got three characters I created that I really liked. A Tir nA nOg Path mage who was exiled ("But he breaks the group's strictures by not attending all the functions since he's in Seattle, and he doesn't get the bonus dice from being in the right part of Tir, and--" Yeah, he was screwed a ot because of that, but it made him more fun to play), a combat decker who was as good of a shot with a pistol as he was at hacking into a system ("But you can't have a combat decker! That money you waste on ammo/guns should be used for programs and the karma from Pistols should be used on Computer and if you lower his Body and Strength, you can get Exceptional Attribute Intelligence and raise it to--" Yeah, he was good in combat and good in decking, but he wasn't the best at either. He didn't TRY to be either. That made him fun to play as well because I was monopolizing all the GM's time with the Matrix run he threw in just to give my character something to do.), and a non-cybered, non-magic detective/face type character ("But if he has a datajack, he can do Matrix searches and he needs Tailored Pheremones and he can use manipulation spells to--" Did Rick Blane have Tailored Pheremones? Did Sam Spade have a datajack? Nope, and they did just fine I think.).
Welcome to Shadowrun. This is a game. The person in control of the game is called the Game Master or GM. If YOUR game of Shadowrun is too cartoony, too munchkiny, too whatever, don't blame the writers. Blame your GM. Or start looking inward to see if you're the one that's looking for something in the game no one else in your game wants. No one's forcing you to play Survival of the Fittest, no one's forcing you to play a gun adept all twinked out with powers geased to something easy to find, no one's forcing you to get Move-By-Wire. If you don't like it, don't use it. If you don't want to read it, don't buy it. Just remember that there are those of us who DO like it, WILL use it, and WILL buy it. It's our opinion, and we have as much a right to it as you do to yours. I'm not telling you that your game is outdated or boring or whatever. Don't tell me mine is cartoony or overpowered. It's called "politeness" and "respect". Try using some. And that comment is meant only for the reactionary and downright rude people posting, not the ones with actual greviences who are trying to intelligently and calmly put those ideas forward to discuss them.
The Abstruse One
You don't like the metaplot? Don't use it. "But Survival of the Fittest has--" Shut up. There's a summary on the back of the book. Read it. Don't like what it has? Don't buy it. EVERY edition of Shadowrun has tried to balance fantasy and cyberpunk. I mean that's kinda the point of the game to start with. This thread seems to have degenerated down to typical flames of "I'm right!" "No, *I*'m right!" Guess what people? THESE ARE MATTERS OF OPINION!! There is no right or wrong when it comes to an opinion. There's just informed and misinformed. Many of the posts on here are from people misinformed.
Is Shadowrun cartoony? It can be, but it isn't solely by its nature. Is Shadowrun munchkiny? It can be, but only if you force it to be. Sure, I can tweak out a character until he's damn near invinsible. Try playing that character in a game, though. Unless what you're playing is a glorified game of Quake with no story and all combat, you get bored fast because your character has no personality. It's all numbers and no story.
I've got three characters I created that I really liked. A Tir nA nOg Path mage who was exiled ("But he breaks the group's strictures by not attending all the functions since he's in Seattle, and he doesn't get the bonus dice from being in the right part of Tir, and--" Yeah, he was screwed a ot because of that, but it made him more fun to play), a combat decker who was as good of a shot with a pistol as he was at hacking into a system ("But you can't have a combat decker! That money you waste on ammo/guns should be used for programs and the karma from Pistols should be used on Computer and if you lower his Body and Strength, you can get Exceptional Attribute Intelligence and raise it to--" Yeah, he was good in combat and good in decking, but he wasn't the best at either. He didn't TRY to be either. That made him fun to play as well because I was monopolizing all the GM's time with the Matrix run he threw in just to give my character something to do.), and a non-cybered, non-magic detective/face type character ("But if he has a datajack, he can do Matrix searches and he needs Tailored Pheremones and he can use manipulation spells to--" Did Rick Blane have Tailored Pheremones? Did Sam Spade have a datajack? Nope, and they did just fine I think.).
Welcome to Shadowrun. This is a game. The person in control of the game is called the Game Master or GM. If YOUR game of Shadowrun is too cartoony, too munchkiny, too whatever, don't blame the writers. Blame your GM. Or start looking inward to see if you're the one that's looking for something in the game no one else in your game wants. No one's forcing you to play Survival of the Fittest, no one's forcing you to play a gun adept all twinked out with powers geased to something easy to find, no one's forcing you to get Move-By-Wire. If you don't like it, don't use it. If you don't want to read it, don't buy it. Just remember that there are those of us who DO like it, WILL use it, and WILL buy it. It's our opinion, and we have as much a right to it as you do to yours. I'm not telling you that your game is outdated or boring or whatever. Don't tell me mine is cartoony or overpowered. It's called "politeness" and "respect". Try using some. And that comment is meant only for the reactionary and downright rude people posting, not the ones with actual greviences who are trying to intelligently and calmly put those ideas forward to discuss them.
The Abstruse One
| QUOTE (Abstruse) |
| Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah You don't like the metaplot? Don't use it. "But Survival of the Fittest has--" Shut up. There's a summary on the back of the book. Read it. Don't like what it has? Don't buy it. EVERY edition of Shadowrun has tried to balance fantasy and cyberpunk. I mean that's kinda the point of the game to start with. This thread seems to have degenerated down to typical flames of "I'm right!" "No, *I*'m right!" Guess what people? THESE ARE MATTERS OF OPINION!! There is no right or wrong when it comes to an opinion. There's just informed and misinformed. Many of the posts on here are from people misinformed. Is Shadowrun cartoony? It can be, but it isn't solely by its nature. Is Shadowrun munchkiny? It can be, but only if you force it to be. Sure, I can tweak out a character until he's damn near invinsible. Try playing that character in a game, though. Unless what you're playing is a glorified game of Quake with no story and all combat, you get bored fast because your character has no personality. It's all numbers and no story. I've got three characters I created that I really liked. A Tir nA nOg Path mage who was exiled ("But he breaks the group's strictures by not attending all the functions since he's in Seattle, and he doesn't get the bonus dice from being in the right part of Tir, and--" Yeah, he was screwed a ot because of that, but it made him more fun to play), a combat decker who was as good of a shot with a pistol as he was at hacking into a system ("But you can't have a combat decker! That money you waste on ammo/guns should be used for programs and the karma from Pistols should be used on Computer and if you lower his Body and Strength, you can get Exceptional Attribute Intelligence and raise it to--" Yeah, he was good in combat and good in decking, but he wasn't the best at either. He didn't TRY to be either. That made him fun to play as well because I was monopolizing all the GM's time with the Matrix run he threw in just to give my character something to do.), and a non-cybered, non-magic detective/face type character ("But if he has a datajack, he can do Matrix searches and he needs Tailored Pheremones and he can use manipulation spells to--" Did Rick Blane have Tailored Pheremones? Did Sam Spade have a datajack? Nope, and they did just fine I think.). Welcome to Shadowrun. This is a game. The person in control of the game is called the Game Master or GM. If YOUR game of Shadowrun is too cartoony, too munchkiny, too whatever, don't blame the writers. Blame your GM. Or start looking inward to see if you're the one that's looking for something in the game no one else in your game wants. No one's forcing you to play Survival of the Fittest, no one's forcing you to play a gun adept all twinked out with powers geased to something easy to find, no one's forcing you to get Move-By-Wire. If you don't like it, don't use it. If you don't want to read it, don't buy it. Just remember that there are those of us who DO like it, WILL use it, and WILL buy it. It's our opinion, and we have as much a right to it as you do to yours. I'm not telling you that your game is outdated or boring or whatever. Don't tell me mine is cartoony or overpowered. It's called "politeness" and "respect". Try using some. And that comment is meant only for the reactionary and downright rude people posting, not the ones with actual greviences who are trying to intelligently and calmly put those ideas forward to discuss them. The Abstruse One |
i'd basically agree with the 'pro-SR' crowd, except for SURGE. SURGE, all by its lonesome, nearly made me drop the game completely. not because i didn't want it in my game (i don't, and it's not, but that's not why i almost dropped the game) but because i figured, if this is the type of furry-loving, big-eyes-small-mouth-having crap that's going to be making its way into the game, i'd rather not stick around and watch SR devolve. don't get me wrong, i love me some anime--but SR isn't the place i come to get it.
and then, right after that, every book that came out was cool.
and then, right after that, every book that came out was cool.
Apparently everyone missed the point of my last post. Shadowrun has not changed. Everyones (or darn near) perception of it has. Shadowrun is by it's very nature cartoony and munchkin. Your GM gets to decide how much so. If you are going to suspend your disbelief for the basic premise then you have to go with the ramifications of that. The Shadowrun universe is a dynamic universe. It moves forward. Since it moves forward things change. As I said in a previous post all you really need are the BBB, CC, MitS, MM, and Matrix books. After that you don't need to by another blessed thing. But there are other books out there. Use 'em if ya want or not.
The Shadowrun rules system and source books are a frame work to hang YOUR universe on. My SR universe is unique. There are no others like it. Sure there are points in commonalty but thats it.
Munchkiny is as munchkiny does. Sure some of the later supplements have increased the possibility of munchkin abuse but you don't have to allow it. It's YOUR game. As for cartoony, well I only have a vague idea of what everyone else is talking about. One of my earlier posts questioned what people meant by this and to date there has been no real response. Please define this term. I think once it is defined everyone will reconize it for the lame crutch to bitch it is.
Thanos
The Shadowrun rules system and source books are a frame work to hang YOUR universe on. My SR universe is unique. There are no others like it. Sure there are points in commonalty but thats it.
Munchkiny is as munchkiny does. Sure some of the later supplements have increased the possibility of munchkin abuse but you don't have to allow it. It's YOUR game. As for cartoony, well I only have a vague idea of what everyone else is talking about. One of my earlier posts questioned what people meant by this and to date there has been no real response. Please define this term. I think once it is defined everyone will reconize it for the lame crutch to bitch it is.
Thanos
SURGE is cartoony. for chrissake, the in-character bit that introduced it featured a freakin' catgirl.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| SURGE is cartoony. for chrissake, the in-character bit that introduced it featured a freakin' catgirl. |
So? The BBB had a Troll firing an oversized gun and a small skinny dwarf on its cover. That's cartoony too.
that's an artist's interpretation of an event which could happen in SR. the interpretation happens to be cartoony; the situation itself isn't.
marsupial pouches? feathers? that's cartoony, no matter who draws it.
marsupial pouches? feathers? that's cartoony, no matter who draws it.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| that's an artist's interpretation of an event which could happen in SR. the interpretation happens to be cartoony; the situation itself isn't. marsupial pouches? feathers? that's cartoony, no matter who draws it. |
Only in your mind. Horns are funny looking too. Come to think of it.... so are tusks.
yes, it's a matter of perception. and it's a pretty common perception that anthropomorphic animals--like, say, the catgirl whose appearance heralded SURGE--is cartoonish. horns and tusks were not pushed, in SR, as being cartoonish; they were pushed as being part of a griddy world. SURGE was pushed as being cartoony. some basic math: catgirl + pornstar = cartoony.
All in how you look at it. Taken in a vacuum, it has the potential to devolve into a anime-esque furry fest, but so do shape shifters.
Personally, I see SURGE as more viseral and less cartoonish. There's grit there, of course. For every catgirl you find making good on her mutation, there are two who have been gunned down or beaten by racists, three or four who are living on the streets where they once had descent jobs, and five or six in even worse states.
It's like having all of the stigma associated with being an ork or troll without the built in racial unity thing.
Personally, I see SURGE as more viseral and less cartoonish. There's grit there, of course. For every catgirl you find making good on her mutation, there are two who have been gunned down or beaten by racists, three or four who are living on the streets where they once had descent jobs, and five or six in even worse states.
It's like having all of the stigma associated with being an ork or troll without the built in racial unity thing.
Take the arguments down a notch, folks. There's a lot of heat being generated over a few opinions, and telling someone to "shut up" in any circumstance is not cool. People asked Squire why he thought as he did, so he presented his case, and now he's being told to shut up? Definitely not cool.
First and last warning. After that, I shut down the thread.
First and last warning. After that, I shut down the thread.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| marsupial pouches? feathers? that's cartoony, no matter who draws it. |
Bull. I didn't much care for the interview with the catgirl, but that's not because it was an interview with a catgirl, it's because she was actually fitting in with society (sort of) after her change. However, once we realize (as previously mentioned) that most people just aren't going to be doing that, pouches and feathers suddenly get a lot less cartoony.
~J
Explain cartoony. Anyone. Surge? VERY, VERY small part of the game. Really. Some one explain cartoony aside from the art. How is the game cartoony in ways that it isn't from the get go? For some reason this really bothers me and no one has defined what they mean by cartoony. Come on all you critics that base your objections on cartoony, what does it mean?
Thanos
Thanos
Squire did explain what he meant. Topic now closed.
I believe that they mean by "cartoonish" more than Walt Disney cartoon a more anime-like cartoons. Something like Tank Police, with the evil cat-girls facing a bunch of d**b policemen in tanks too big for their brains (not to say that anime wasn't funny, that0's not the point). It's easy to see such paralelism in several artworks and texts, negating it leads us nowhere. But still, cartoons can catch perfectly the feeling in the cyberpunk genre: Ghost in the Shell and Akira are commonly suggested things to watch when such threads pop up around here.
Still, cartoonish has been employed more in the sense of funny cartoons, and such ilstrations exist (more than which have been mentioned, for example, New Seattle's cover with the guy hanging from the car). We shouldn't say: that doesn't exist, we should in change say: that should change. For example, rare is the ilo in which the team appears only planning the action to take.
Criticism has to be constructive, not destructive. At least, that's my POV. And sorry if this post is a mess, too many things going round my head and I haven't explained myself properly in the end...
Still, cartoonish has been employed more in the sense of funny cartoons, and such ilstrations exist (more than which have been mentioned, for example, New Seattle's cover with the guy hanging from the car). We shouldn't say: that doesn't exist, we should in change say: that should change. For example, rare is the ilo in which the team appears only planning the action to take.
Criticism has to be constructive, not destructive. At least, that's my POV. And sorry if this post is a mess, too many things going round my head and I haven't explained myself properly in the end...
| QUOTE (Thanos007) |
| Apparently everyone missed the point of my last post. Shadowrun has not changed. Everyones (or darn near) perception of it has. Shadowrun is by it's very nature cartoony and munchkin. Your GM gets to decide how much so. If you are going to suspend your disbelief for the basic premise then you have to go with the ramifications of that. The Shadowrun universe is a dynamic universe. It moves forward. Since it moves forward things change. As I said in a previous post all you really need are the BBB, CC, MitS, MM, and Matrix books. After that you don't need to by another blessed thing. But there are other books out there. Use 'em if ya want or not. |
If people's view on any given subject change, then that given subject changes in answer. More so, obviously, with something as man-determined as a line of books as SR are. So, SR has changed. Not seeing that is not accepting part of the truth in all this discussion (and one of the few points in which a certain level of agreement has been reached).
Sorry Pistons, hadn't read your post by the time I had already answered. Sorry. 
er...? was this unlocked for a reason?
Dunno, but it's unlocked now............ 
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