drab.

[QUOTE]If people's view on any given subject change, then that given subject changes in answer.[QUOTE]

Sometimes.

[QUOTE]More so, obviously, with something as man-determined as a line of books as SR are. So, SR has changed. Not seeing that is not accepting part of the truth in all this discussion (and one of the few points in which a certain level of agreement has been reached).[/QUOTE]

Not quite sure what your point here is. Are you saying that everyone agrees SR has changed but not on how it has changed? I'd say that it is obvious it has changed as we are on 3rd ed. I don't think that's what this thread is about. It's how it has changed. Has it's tone, it's flavor changed. As a whole, I'd say no. Just finished DotSW skimmed Threats 2. Seems just as grim and paranoid as always. And yes there may have been the odd book/adventure that was out of wack with the general tone of SR but that doesn't mean the whole game has shifted to that tone.

As far as definitions go; and I'm not trying to shut down the thread again, as far as I can tell the definition of cartoony is poor illustrations and bad fiction. Well then SR hasn't changed since it's inception and all RPG's are cartoony. For every good pic in any SR book there are at least two that are bad to awful. The fiction? As someone else put it most of the books were equal to bodice rippers and the worst unreadable.

Thanos

*shrug* i continue to maintain that catgirls, feathers, and marsupial pouches don't fit SR's atmosphere unless you're using a literary crowbar. call them cartoony, silly, or even just plain dumb, i don't care; it's too far out in left field for me to take seriously.

The problem isn't that catgirls don't figure into a dark future; they just don't fit into a dark future imagined in 1989. It's not Shadowrun that has changed; it's that we have. Shadowrun was created from the paranoia and anxieties of the moment. As we travel to the future at the speed of time, we graft our new fears onto Shadowrun while letting expired ones fall by the wayside. It's not a very smooth way to adapt.

i'm not afraid of catgirls, i think they're dumb. though i guess i do fear my precious dark, gritty future being invaded by yiffage; maybe you're right.

mfb you may be right but has that changed the WHOLE game. That's one supplement. One. If that one misstep changes the game for you well... I thought Shadowrunners were tougher than that.

However you have brought up my point of contention. People seem to be letting one or two things ruin the entire game for them. Surge? Sure it happened in my game (I'm pretty much a slave to cannon). I don't personally care for it but it's there as BACKGROUND. There are many things in my campaing that I mention to my players that are cannon but have no real impact on what happens to them. Just as there are things that happen in the real world that have little or no impact on me and mine. They do happened and I'm aware of them. Dunkie assassinated? Wow that's some weird s***. About tonights job...


Thanos

well, like i said, the reason i nearly dropped SR was that i was afraid it was the beginning of a trend--something that would, combined with other new "features", change the feel of the entire game. so far, i haven't seen anything like that; in fact, there's been a marked turn for the gritty in recent books.

I use SURGE, but it's a very negative thing. It's not a "Cute catgirl in downtown" scenario. It's more of a "you see a SURGEd cat girl getting ruthlessly beaten and raped by humanis gangers" scenario. SURGElings are heinous victoms of hate and opression. They make the world more gritty, not the other way round. They make it darker by the worlds reaction to them. they are NOT cool, they are NOT anime and cartoony. The world does not cater to them nor like them.

the problem is, i really can't see myself playing in a game with catgirls that doesn't feature my character joining in on the beatdown, even if it's wholly antithetical to the character's nature. i'm just not that good a roleplayer.

Please spay your catgirl!

of course. but in all the dark, gritty possible futures i've seen in fiction, very few of them involve the introduction of furries into mainstream society. that's just not something that occurs to the average joe as any sort of grim possibility. and when it's introduced by featuring a feline pornstar, i have a seriously hard time seeing it as anything but whimsical and un-gritty.

troy has a point as well--in Shadowrun, cybernetic tails and digitigrade legs are in common enough demand to be available in the open market. why would society decide to hate and fear someone because they gained a tail or digitigrade legs through an act of magic? people are already getting horns surgically implanted in their skulls and other bony areas, but a guy who grows them himself is suddenly a persona non grata? this is crazy-speak.

i think the worst part about SURGE is that it could've been really cool. if it'd been another wave of goblinization, say--maybe even something really risque, like the introduction of characters which mix racial features. turn kenneth brakhaven into an ork--that would set off some racial tension. but, no, we got catgirls.

As odd as it is that you're complaining about getting a catgirl instead of an ork, I completely agree with you. I also agree that it would have been nice if Shadowrun had remained based on its 1989 roots. I can see where a marketing decision had to be made at some point to have it mirror present day fashions and trends, but every time I try to say I don't like to base my game on FASA's or FanPro's marketing ideas, I get rebutted with "blah blah blah blah, shut up about Survival of the Fittest" (which I've never played or complained about, by the way). I can respect Shadowrun's need to constantly be changing, because if it didn't, it would stagnate. But, as much as people like to get up in arms and tell me to shut up over this, most of the recent changes have no appeal to me, and hence I don't use them. I don't think ANYONE should use a sourcebook they don't like. I can respect people that DO like the newer material, it's just not my bag. Shadowrun may or may not be past it's prime (I'd like to know how many people play now as opposed to 5, 10, or 15 years ago, but I realize that's probably a horribly difficult number to come by when some groups have as many main books as players, and some only have one), but Shadowrun is DEFINITELY past MY prime, at least in terms of where the game is heading now. But that doesn't bother me, because I have all the Shadowrun books I need to keep me entertained well into the afterlife (and YES, many of those books from 1st and 2nd editions that I love so much have cartoony covers [I'm looking at YOU, Fields of Fire, even though nobody will agree with me on that], but that doesn't make it ok).

I think the catgirl thing is a TAD overblown, but is indicitive of another, larger problem: One, that the modern internet has too much impact on the game, and two, that the game is perhaps sometimes used as wish-fulfillment by some contributers.

The former is unquestionable. In 1989, nobody used the internet but industry types and hard-core geeks and hackers. The Matrix reflected that. As time has passed and the internet has become accepted by the mainstream, it has lost its exclusivity. In Real life that's good; for a dystopian cyberpunk fiction, it's terrible.

The latter is also true, I think, but probably inevitable. All rpgs are a bit of wish-fulfillment, and in a game about the near-future, it's probably inevitable that people would project what they imagine might be nice about the future, onto the game. Note: I'm not trying to cast aspersions on anyone's, um, preferences. Just speculating.

That said, catgirls aren't even exclusive to Shadowrun. The idea of people who purposely used gene splicing to take on the features of animals WAS present in other cyberpunk fictions. The cause was merely different. In and of itself, a catgirl isn't the end of the world.

Definately past it's prime. BTW, Target: Awakened Lands, Threats 2, and Survival of the Fittest have all nearly sold out, so if you haven't picked up your copies yet, now would be the time. . .

Then check out Bergting. Loved his art in the 2nd ed (and what they carried over to the 3rd). That and his work on Mutant Chronicles were really selling point for me in getting Shadowrun books. Contrast that with the art in Corporate Shadowfiles and you see a better picture of Shadowrun, IMO.

Without any loaded comment, part of it seems more realistic due to the mirroring of the present. Making the Matrix more accessable or even talking about what goes on for getting vehicles was actually pretty interesting and gives one plot ideas.

Awakened Lands doesn't really hold any appeal, although a copy of Survival of the Fittest is on the list (along with lots of other things). Maybe I'll pick them up from the internet, but I still have another order I'll have to make from F-Shop in September (Brennpunkt: ADL/Target: Matrix or Awakened Lands).

Don

I think when most people say "cartoony" they're talking mostly about the cover art. Interior art can often be excused if intermixed with other styles, but when you have a cover like the SR3 core rules or Cannon Companion, that *does* scream "this game is cartoony."

Most of the recent covers have been pretty good (State of the Art: 2063 and Threats 2 being the best examples), but the aesthetics of a book *do* play a big part in how that game is perceived by the audience.

I also think its a shame that the people responsible for the game now are assuming that its just the quality and style of the new books that is explaining its relatively decent sales. My guess is the real brunt of it came from the launch of a new edition, not necessarily the new direction the game took. People see a new edition as an opportunity to get into a game they've heard a lot about, but didn't feel like tracking down all the books that came prior.

Sure, 3rd Edition has been out for quite a few years now, but it still had a lot to do with it I think. That's not to say that the new material isn't any good -- on the contrary, most of it is. But some of the decisions made (like thinking that because Shadowbeat did so poorly in 1st Edition, a similar book would do just as poorly today despite the fact that its amongst many fan's favorite book) seem to be based solely on the sales and the assumption that its the contents of that book itself that determine those figures.

Hmm. Cripes. I had a point for this post before I started writing and now I've completely lost it. I need to get back on my meds.

Anyway, anyone who's ever purchased a Shadowrun sourcebook has every right to voice their dislike of it just as much as they have the right to voice what they like about it. It's not a "priviledge" to be able to purchase one, and they should like it and shut up. WizKids/FanPro is trying to earn a buck, and putting these books out is how they earn that buck. If they -- either directly or indirectly -- don't want to negative commentary, that's their perogative. But that doesn't mean people who are dissatisifed with the product's direction have to sit there and live with it. I don't care if that's what the business world is trying to sucker people into believing these days... it's simply not true.

I'm one of the people who liked the older style Shadowtalk. Where it was a story within a story; you could read nothing but the Shadowtalk and still see something interesting going on. The Aztlan sourcebook is a good example of this. In recent books, it's usually a chore to read it and you can easily ignore it without losing much.

Now, as mentioned, it just seems to be a different way to say what was just said or to add something obvious about it. Usually in a manner that makes the one posting it sound like they're the definitive source on the subject. Misinformation and poor, but rational, extrapolations was part of the fun, too. Especially if added without some supra-genius poster coming along with his nose in the air to correct everyone on the subject.

I also miss the advertisements. If we're lucky, we get one or two in some of the recent publications, but it's nothing like it used to be. You'd think filler art of that style would be easier to come by, but usually all we get are some runners in "cool" poses in the vast majority of the art. Yawn. One of the reasons Shadowbeat was great was because of that very thing... not only did the ads break up the text, but they gave you a feel for the gameworld itself -- way more than another runner in another pose ever did at least.

I'd love to see more focus on the game world itself, not the metaplot. I also want to see a focus on the streets, not the metaplot or otherwise epic runs. Having a book focusing on dozens to hundreds of street-level run ideas would be inifitely more useful than another Survival of the Fittest. I can do a lot more with "the Mafia hires you to take photos of a government official in a compromising position" premise than I can with a "the great dragons use you like a pawn to become Loremaster" premise. It also fits the alledged theme of the game, too.

I'd also love to see more brand names showing up in the game. One of my favorite aspects about Rigger 3 were the alternate model names for each vehicle. Basically, anything that can be used to add more flavor into a regular game is a good thing. Having to wait until you have a character with 200 Karma and on par with a demigod just so you can take actually survive the Renraku Arcology: Shutdown or Survival of the Fittest isn't. At least not to me.

I'd just like to take a moment of you day and ask that you take a look at the cover of Shadows of North America. The image is brilliant: a professional runner sent to retrieve a sim star in retreat. He's an alien in this place, every eye on him. Even his professional calm is on edge, and god, is she such a bitch. You can almost here his thoughts as he scans for threats. Am I wrong or is everything in that picture perfect for Shadowrun? Poverty in the shadow of technology, the hint of magic in his elf ears. The collision and melding of the elements of Shadowrun into one image.

Yep, it's another one of my favorites.

Right now I'd have to go with Schockwellen as one of my favorites (guy also did interior art for SSG, SOTA 2063, and some of the more recent SR books). One of his interior ones is one of my favorites (the one in Berlin with the television attenae). Shadowtech and Cybertechnology are also okay.

Still, that's a cool cover (a lot better than, say M&M).

Don

Really? I was under the impression that SotF required at least some powerful characters.


Don

i probably wouldn't focus so much on the catgirl if it hadn't been used to introduce SURGE. the in-character section of any rulebook sets the tone for the rules; using a feline, 1960s-batman's-catwomanesque pornstar to introduce something that was supposed to spark racial tension was possibly an ill-conceived idea. the interview was very favorable towards SURGEd changelings; it's obvious from the text that anybody who dislikes SURGE changelings is a slobbering moron. this does not create racial tension: it creates an excuse and a precedent for PCs to make After the Bomb-style critters, and for the people we already know to be bad guys to occasionally attempt to kick those critters' butts.

racial tension would have the actual races tense. what would happen if a portion of TT's elven population suddenly and inexplicably goblinized into orks and trolls? what if a significant Humanis figure gave birth to a dwarf, and this information was outed before it could be suppressed? what if orks and trolls suddenly begain un-goblinizing into humans? stuff like that, that would cause racial tension. that would pit elf against elf against troll against ork against human. that would cause race riots, and threaten another Night of Rage-style incident. as it stands, the only 'racial tension' that SURGE has caused is between the furries and the people that dislike furries, right here on the boards. oh, and some Humanis thugs are beating up on a guy with gills and fins in an alley somewhere, but no one's paying attention to that--they're all glued to the catgirl interview.

Cartoonish.... I just don't understand some people.

Are we talking anvil falling on a coyotes head. Thats cartoonish to me.

What exactly is it? I've always thought of Shadowrun in animated terms but because it is artwork. Including the novel covers. If it was made using RL pictures then I would think of it as such. Thats how I am. If thats cartoonish, well I'm confused. It seems that animated(in any form) has some sort of negative conotation. Very Strange, I've always seen it as an acceptable and adult form of expression.

And I must say I think the idea what artwork on the cover determines what kind of gamers join Shadowrun is rediculous. Almost insulting even. Yeah I like anime and manga and the stories/style there in. That isnt what is going to keep me interested in shadowrun or set the tone, it was the material inside the book that did. Art in Shadowrun is like novel covers for me, the meat is the words in them.

We are talking about roleplayers. Trust that a RPer will know what they are getting into. I know an "Anime Crash" when I see it.

I was first involved in shadowrun through Third edition. I didn't say oh look at this! The animation.

I wondered if I was seeing a Troll, holding a gun. Trying to protect some girl with a wire in her head. Where were they? Thats certainly no Medievel village. Interesting...

That backstory blew my mind. The Metaplot was amazing. That and the novels helped define for me how the world basically was. Not the cover art. And I think the art is just fine and can lend itself from being realistic to just an attempt to be humorous. Its definately far from kiddy though even at its "so called" worst.


Now about this "Cat Girl" thing. This just rediculous people. And please stop throwing that generalization around. It was old the first day. Surge was a decent addition. And I dont even know if the authors intent was to "anime" the game up. When I think of Surge I think of guys growing eyes in the back of their head. Of painfully growing scales and getting outcasted by it. Or People with freakish skin. Or spikes growing out the wazoo. Or becoming a guy that generates his own astral background count.

The fur entry was barely .01 of the Material and haters jumped all over that. Sure you guys aren't having some sort of resentment over "furry fantasies." Thats what I think of when I think of cat people. Some sort of furry fetish, the freaking thundercats or something. Has anyone even tried to play one of these furry characters or seen someone try? I'd rather get the back sloping horns or something. And whats this fuss over metavariants too. I didn't like all of them, but some where good. Like Oni for instance. Makes sense given the possiblity that magic is affected by beliefs and emotions. And where did the legends come from anyway.


And no offense again anyone but saying " I almost quit the game because of SURGE" seems rather weak. To give up something great like Shadowrun over one entry. You veteran players are grown men right. If it only took one thing to mess up a franchise then StarWars fandom would have died years ago.

You think Midichlorians, Jar Jar, or semibad directing made all the hardcore fan forget about Star Wars. Last I looked they were still here. Heck its more popular than ever. And Popular =/= a bad thing. I discared Midis they do not exist in my mind. I'm not going to give up Star Wars because of it! I'll be darned if Lucas can do that to me. Doesn't make people seem all that good for Shadowrun if little stuff like SURGE makes someone need a diaper change. The core is still there and worth sticking around for.

Catgirl = anime is so out of date anyway. If a SURGE effect caused you to get a big head and big eyes was in the book then sure complain away. But even that one is a weak stereotype.

If, after numerous people have explained it to you numerous times, you still can't comprehend what they mean by "cartoonish," you need to freshen up on your comprehension skills.

Quit assuming you know what they're referring to and actually stop to read what they have to say, not what you want to believe they're saying.

as i've said several times, my fear was that SURGE was the beginning of a trend. a "trend" is "lots of the same thing". i was afraid that it wasn't just one thing, that it was the beginning of many things.

the fur entry was a bit more than '.01 of the material'. it was the personal portion of the text--the part that looks at SURGE from the point of view of those it affects. the catgirl obviously wasn't experiencing much in the way of 'racial' tension--yes, she lost some friends, and her family doesn't approve of her lifestyle. but for god's sake, she's aporn star. that pretty implicitly says that people like her. if the point of view of SURGE changelings is that people like them, where's the racial tension?

Nah I felt like ranting. To much bashing in a comics vs. anime debate. So I had a chip on my sholder.

Oh for the love of....

I am going to say this again for all you nay sayers. You don't like how Shadowrun is going right now? Fine. Then run your own games, your own way. You may not like the supposedly "elitiest" attitudes that are supposedly being tossed your way. But, guess what, the rest of us don't like those same attitudes your tossing OUR way.

Do whatever the hell you want, but let those of us who happen to like what Shadowrun is right now enjoy the game too ok?

yes, let's just quit buying the products, instead of telling the writers what we do and don't like about what's been produced. great idea.

dude, which part of Synner--one of the guys behind SoE and sundry other projects--looking and listening to our complaints did you miss? this is pretty much the opposite of 'accomplishing nothing'.

As this thread has stretched into 8 pages, it is quite possible that I missed something. What I did remember was Synner using the most recent releases as a counter argument to the whole "Cartoony" arguement.

IF any of the writers are still reading this, the only conclusion they can honestly reach is "We'll never please them all." I would be surprised if they didn't know that already.

I think it's safe to say that we knew that.

I think the bottom line has always been: Saying that you like or dislike something is only useful to a degree. Saying /why/ you like or dislike it is far better. Doing so /politely/ is the best.

What he said.

Simple negative criticism is useless from a creative standpoint. Make it constructive criticism and we're in a whole new ballpark. The ideal would be people to stop saying they don't like stuff, and start saying exactly why they don't like or agree with it. That's the source of useful and fruitful criticism. Doesn't mean a writer will agree with you, but its certainly more productive than being vague.

Can someone explain why so many are on a forum devoted to Shadowrun discussing how near death it is?

And dear [insert favorite diety] why bitch about surge? Just don't use it if you don't like it.

that's not always an option, Domino. see, the game setting i play in is as close to canon as possible, because that's the easiest way to keep all 50+ active players and 200+ sporadic players happy (or, at least, equally unhappy). so, as much as we might like to just excise SURGE from our game completely, we can't, because it'd break one of the basic rules of our game.

It is always an option hence it is your game. As oppossed to the game.

Then again, it only affects 1% of the population in canon (less amongst shadowrunners, if you use the random roll system). That's only one in every hundred people you meet on the streets of Seattle has a one of the three SURGE expressions and the vast majority are very minor expressions (ie. for every pornstar catgirl there's ten guys with scales on their hands, pointy ears, lavender pupils, etc), so you shouldn't have a problem unless those players like it in the first place and use it themselves. It shouldn't be a problem and like everything in canon it is scaleable by the GM to fit his setting. Want to make it rarer in Seattle? Go ahead there's no hard figures in canon about the incidence in Seattle. Make it 0.5% or less and its negligible. Make all that racist stuff kneejerk stuff happen "elsewhere"...

Plz let's get over SURGE, its almost 3 years old now, and lets get on to the stuff that's been developed since...

I'm honestly surprised at the amount of attention SURGE gets over some of the other things mentioned in SOTA:2063. I really would've expected celebrity runners and endorsements to enrage more people. Then again, I may be missing something; I'll readily admit I didn't bother reading the rest of this thread, and this may just be stirring up settled debates.

*headscratch* i think Domino may have missed everything beyond the first four or five words of my post. at any rate.

the only thing i can think of off the top of my head that's bothered me in recent books is Tir Tairngire. i appreciate that it's been opened up and made a viable shadowrunning location (as opposed to the fairly stale, you're-not-cool-enough-to-run-here situation described in the TT book). however, i find it odd that a collection of people who have been deeply involved in world politics for the better part of the past two millennia (or more, i've never gotten a handle on how long the up and down cycles are) managed to run their economy into the ground in only twenty years. to someone who's been alive as long as these people have, twenty years is barely long enough to finish a cup of coffee in the morning. if their best-laid plans require only two decades to ruin, how in the world have they managed to survive the past thousand years?

i'm willing to give that the benefit of the doubt, though. maybe some other major player (TNN?) yanked the rug out from under them, or something metaplotish like that.