Full Version: Shadowrun past it's prime?
| QUOTE (Skeptical Clown) | ||
Granted, but that doesn't really diminish my point at all. I was specifically targetting the idea that players want to be deeply involved in the "happenings" of the Shadowrun world. If players want to do that on their own time, that's fine. More power to 'em. But I think it's a mistake to indulge players in this in official products. Particularly in a game like Shadowrun. |
And I'm specifically targeting the idea that forsaking the player base in the official products is an even bigger mistake. Particularly in a game like Shadowrun.
Players are tossing ideas all over the place. This creative outlet is a resource and not to be tossed out with the bathwater, as it were.
Yes, selective editing of what does become "official" should be exercised- but I'd be willing to wager that the amount of fans who would be willing to freely give their ideas to Fanpro in exchange for a small thank you and the pride that their idea saw official print would be quite large.
SoE is a good example, if a bit larger in scope then what I have ever seen before. But it would never have happened if Synner and his 40 other pals weren't "indulged".
Another good example is this very thread. This level of interaction between those working for Fanpro and the fanbase is practically unheard of elsewhere, let alone to let this thread grow to nine pages before it was locked. And then unlocked and the level of debate miraculously remained at a dull roar, and even moved past the sticking point that caused the locking in the first place.
***
And as an aside, I wanna throw my vote into the "101 Street Level Run Ideas And Assorted NPC's" will be the least used of any SR book I'll own.
In fact, I'd wager to say I already have it. It's called New Seattle.
I don't need any help pulling out a street level run out of my ass. I have no problem with telling the story and the resultant concequences from street level runs which feature NPC's and PC's with limited resources and influences. I do it every friday night.
But when NPC's, PC's and the story itself start having large networks of infulences in which to draw from and exploit, and in turn affecting the aftermath of those layers of detail with far ranging effects all across the world (otherwise known as Epic stories)... then, then I need some help.
| QUOTE |
| In my experience that makes it easier rather than harder. You already have a pool of established organizations, NPCs, settings, and events to draw from. |
I'd still say its the opposite if only cause players/readers/even gms are in the dark on alot of the metaplot, that only writers/fanpro know whats really up.
| QUOTE (TinkerGnome) |
| I'd say the alternative to high level modules isn't low level adventures (ideas or whole) but rather detailed and balanced opposition for the PCs. Stats for a team of Red Samurai, UCAS soldiers, etc. along with hooks for using them would be about right (I assume that Threats and Threats 2 do something similar to this... I don't currently own a copy of either, so I can't be definitive on that). |
The FLGS was holding a buy one get one free sale, so I picked up Threats 2 today and it doesn't really cover this. What I'd personally like to see are stats given for typical members of most major street gangs (scalable to novice, regular, or veteran), corporate security teams for most corps, etc. Really, it sounds like a good idea for a web project as much as anything else.
| QUOTE (TinkerGnome) |
| What I'd personally like to see are stats given for typical members of most major street gangs (scalable to novice, regular, or veteran), corporate security teams for most corps, etc. Really, it sounds like a good idea for a web project as much as anything else. |
Or say something like Mr Johnson's Little Black Book?
| QUOTE (Synner) |
| Or say something like Mr Johnson's Little Black Book? |
In theory, yes. What's the status on that project?
| QUOTE |
| What I'd personally like to see are stats given for typical members of most major street gangs (scalable to novice, regular, or veteran), corporate security teams for most corps, etc. Really, it sounds like a good idea for a web project as much as anything else. |
Actually I'm just polishing off some scaleable stuff for a web project of mine... the Shadowrun GM's Companion. Once I finish up the last few chapters (about a month or 2) I will put up a PDF up on my website.
Until then I did write a piece on how to properly scale stuff for new GM's. This article What Level are your Characters?, is where most of the ideas are. If your new it should help you slap out quick "instant action" situations.
These statlines are very simplistic, and the final version has different gangs, and corps ect. The final PDF should be really useful, I know it is to me, so I would expect others would really dig it.
| QUOTE (TinkerGnome) |
| In theory, yes. What's the status on that project? |
It's in layout right now and should be available for GenCon - late August/early September in stores.
| QUOTE (DarusGrey @ Jul 5 2004, 12:06 PM) |
| I'd still say its the opposite if only cause players/readers/even gms are in the dark on alot of the metaplot, that only writers/fanpro know whats really up. |
The fact is even the writes and FanPro only have so much written and thought out. The rest is truly in the open to be developed later based on the writer who next picks up the thread. Even better, because so much is left behind the curtain, GMs have total control over why things happen, even if they choose to play with canon events.
geez, that's three books i'm picking up at GC.
| QUOTE (DarusGrey) | ||
I'd still say its the opposite if only cause players/readers/even gms are in the dark on alot of the metaplot, that only writers/fanpro know whats really up. |
"Hey, that isn't really consistent with some ideas that are floating around the heads of writers thousands of miles away that we cannot possibly know about. Fuck this, I've been totally jerked out of the game world. Hand me those rolling papers and a dollar bill."
If everyone's in the dark about it then there's no inconsistency and it will have no effect on the enjoyment of the game!
I'll add again about Shadowrun Missions...
These adventures are geared towards the more traditional old time shadowruns... Not used by people?? i've had over 200 requests for the first adventure alone, and from all over the world such as Brazil, South Africa, Spain, France, Germany, Australia, UK, and Canada. It has been translated into French, Spanish, and German as well.
We are also working on a companion piece called Mission Briefs which will contain optional "plug in" encounters for GMs that need to fill time during Shadowrun Missions events (or just need a quick little scenario), or that are targeted for only one or two runners, or special runs for a specific archetype. Also included will be stats for standard security guards, various corporate guards, gangers, etc. All NPCs are based on the Shadowrun Missions "Threat Rating", which is based on the average overall Good Karma earned by the player(s), and is divided into Green, Streetwise, Professional, Veteran, Elite, and Prime Runner levels of challenge. These levels apply to the adventures as well...
So everything you guys have been discussing lately is currently being provided by FanPro...we'll be debuting the first story arc adventure at Gencon this year, and some of the entry level / demo events are available for download right now on the SR website...
AND, everything is free...you just need Acrobat Reader...
Rich Osterhout
Campaign Director
Shadowrun Missions
Commando #104
These adventures are geared towards the more traditional old time shadowruns... Not used by people?? i've had over 200 requests for the first adventure alone, and from all over the world such as Brazil, South Africa, Spain, France, Germany, Australia, UK, and Canada. It has been translated into French, Spanish, and German as well.
We are also working on a companion piece called Mission Briefs which will contain optional "plug in" encounters for GMs that need to fill time during Shadowrun Missions events (or just need a quick little scenario), or that are targeted for only one or two runners, or special runs for a specific archetype. Also included will be stats for standard security guards, various corporate guards, gangers, etc. All NPCs are based on the Shadowrun Missions "Threat Rating", which is based on the average overall Good Karma earned by the player(s), and is divided into Green, Streetwise, Professional, Veteran, Elite, and Prime Runner levels of challenge. These levels apply to the adventures as well...
So everything you guys have been discussing lately is currently being provided by FanPro...we'll be debuting the first story arc adventure at Gencon this year, and some of the entry level / demo events are available for download right now on the SR website...
AND, everything is free...you just need Acrobat Reader...
Rich Osterhout
Campaign Director
Shadowrun Missions
Commando #104
| QUOTE |
| AND, everything is free...you just need Acrobat Reader... |
Damn! theres always a price!...
I can only DL modules if they're in Obscure-Format03
Unless there's some sort of encryption or other monkey business, that's not even true. On OSX, Preview will open it just fine without Acrobat Reader 
~J
~J
id just like to throw this in here, as it seems to fit hte tone of the current conversation.
first off, shadowrun missions rocks, mission briefs sounds uber cool, and Mr js BB is sure to rock.
i like street level campaigns, not gang games, but shadowrunners as i saw them in 1st ed., spend a life doing data steals until you get tapped (for no appeaent reason) to do the job of a lifetime. I bought DoTSW (is that the adventure book?) and never played it, i really didnt like it. It seemed way to easy for the level of opposition (dragons) and the explanations all hacked together, also i have been tired of the emphasis on the fantasy side of sr since the comet came out.
Its true that people can make their own street level stuff, but they dont always do it right. What i mean is that shadowrun seems to be really hazy nowadays as far as the flavor involved. I can totally see how 3 new groups picking up the core book could all play 3 radically differnt games (anime, cyberpunk/noir and superhero lets say). The problem i have with this (and it is selfish) is that when all these new people become part of the community they add their 2 cents and lthe game direction drifts toward whatever is prevalent in pop culture/whatever. This leaves behind the older players, and i suspect, the developers original concept. This is fine if you want to make money, but i feel fanpro also has a stake is the art/story they are telling above anmd beyond that.
I just wish that sr could be standardized a bit, i mean you still HAVE to leave in room for people to change it up if they have in their minds the type of game they want to play. But what about the kids (like i was) who are out looking, and they dont know what they want to play, just that they are bored. How will they be attracted to shadowrun if it fails to define itself? why should they pick it up if it looks like a generic system? or if it just seems unfocused, not ideal for the immersion that rping demands. If it wasnt for the terrific way in which the snes shadowrun game painted the world i would still have picked up sr, but if that book had been sr3 and not sr2 i dont htink i wouldve. I think without hte gritty cool pictures (beginning of the sr2 equipment section i think?) i would have passed it up. If someone wants a fantasy rp system there are many to choose from, but the mix of fantasy and a dark pseudo-reality is SRs niche.
The point is sr needs to define what kind of a world the 6th world is. I think that they used to do it well (seattle book w/glossies), and that some books do it rally well (matrix) but that some dont (core, new seattle). Games/movies/comics/etc would be great, they would show what he world is like, and attract players the way i know the older videogames did.
things i also think sr needs to compete fore new players, and to standardize the game world a bit:
1 sample adventures in the core book (like 1st ed.)
2 tables compiled in the back of the books
3 streamline rules (test types are defined but rarely referred to, make all combat play similarly etc) eg [to use rule X make an opposed test PC str v. NPC str.] then compile a list of these in the back (similar to matrix and the operations)
4 a written (or on a cd flash cartoon with audio) example of a play session
5 info like in the ssg, tell the new gm how to run people, what are they like? a gming 101 section would be nice. (how to make motivations, make things believable, etc.)
6 other media to support it as mentioned above.
7 more photorealistic/immersive artwork. I know the arguments about good v bad sr art, im not making a judgement of those little sketches of dwarves and their spirits, im just saying that the glossies in seattle sb or the bradstreet stuff will actually immerse players in the setting (i know it did for me and my group). Suspend disbelief as it were, surrealistic obscure looking sketches will not. How can you assume a role if you dont know how to picture downtown seattle 2064 or what your fixers cyberarm or gun look like?
first off, shadowrun missions rocks, mission briefs sounds uber cool, and Mr js BB is sure to rock.
i like street level campaigns, not gang games, but shadowrunners as i saw them in 1st ed., spend a life doing data steals until you get tapped (for no appeaent reason) to do the job of a lifetime. I bought DoTSW (is that the adventure book?) and never played it, i really didnt like it. It seemed way to easy for the level of opposition (dragons) and the explanations all hacked together, also i have been tired of the emphasis on the fantasy side of sr since the comet came out.
Its true that people can make their own street level stuff, but they dont always do it right. What i mean is that shadowrun seems to be really hazy nowadays as far as the flavor involved. I can totally see how 3 new groups picking up the core book could all play 3 radically differnt games (anime, cyberpunk/noir and superhero lets say). The problem i have with this (and it is selfish) is that when all these new people become part of the community they add their 2 cents and lthe game direction drifts toward whatever is prevalent in pop culture/whatever. This leaves behind the older players, and i suspect, the developers original concept. This is fine if you want to make money, but i feel fanpro also has a stake is the art/story they are telling above anmd beyond that.
I just wish that sr could be standardized a bit, i mean you still HAVE to leave in room for people to change it up if they have in their minds the type of game they want to play. But what about the kids (like i was) who are out looking, and they dont know what they want to play, just that they are bored. How will they be attracted to shadowrun if it fails to define itself? why should they pick it up if it looks like a generic system? or if it just seems unfocused, not ideal for the immersion that rping demands. If it wasnt for the terrific way in which the snes shadowrun game painted the world i would still have picked up sr, but if that book had been sr3 and not sr2 i dont htink i wouldve. I think without hte gritty cool pictures (beginning of the sr2 equipment section i think?) i would have passed it up. If someone wants a fantasy rp system there are many to choose from, but the mix of fantasy and a dark pseudo-reality is SRs niche.
The point is sr needs to define what kind of a world the 6th world is. I think that they used to do it well (seattle book w/glossies), and that some books do it rally well (matrix) but that some dont (core, new seattle). Games/movies/comics/etc would be great, they would show what he world is like, and attract players the way i know the older videogames did.
things i also think sr needs to compete fore new players, and to standardize the game world a bit:
1 sample adventures in the core book (like 1st ed.)
2 tables compiled in the back of the books
3 streamline rules (test types are defined but rarely referred to, make all combat play similarly etc) eg [to use rule X make an opposed test PC str v. NPC str.] then compile a list of these in the back (similar to matrix and the operations)
4 a written (or on a cd flash cartoon with audio) example of a play session
5 info like in the ssg, tell the new gm how to run people, what are they like? a gming 101 section would be nice. (how to make motivations, make things believable, etc.)
6 other media to support it as mentioned above.
7 more photorealistic/immersive artwork. I know the arguments about good v bad sr art, im not making a judgement of those little sketches of dwarves and their spirits, im just saying that the glossies in seattle sb or the bradstreet stuff will actually immerse players in the setting (i know it did for me and my group). Suspend disbelief as it were, surrealistic obscure looking sketches will not. How can you assume a role if you dont know how to picture downtown seattle 2064 or what your fixers cyberarm or gun look like?
Another issue I have is the webring. I know a couple people with really good Shadowrun only sights that have been denied for "lack of shadowrun content" when they have way more content than some people already on the ring.
This means one of two things. After a few weeks the petition to join the ring expires and the system sends a default answer, and the person who used to run the ring never checks up on it. Or it means that the person running the ring for some reason denies people on odd criteria he isn't explaining well.
This lack of mutual support really hurts the community.
This means one of two things. After a few weeks the petition to join the ring expires and the system sends a default answer, and the person who used to run the ring never checks up on it. Or it means that the person running the ring for some reason denies people on odd criteria he isn't explaining well.
This lack of mutual support really hurts the community.
The Webring was taken over by some people I'd never heard of around a year ago - I don't think they have much interest in the Shadowrun community and they just wanted it to bolster hits to their site. They denied my request to have it transferred back to our account.
Could Fan Pro leverage them to comply?
Thanos
Thanos
Well maybe then in the interest of the community we should start a new one
This will also let us weed out the sights that haven't been updated in years. Kind of an avante guard webring.
It just seems the community needs a way to find sights that get updated often.
This will also let us weed out the sights that haven't been updated in years. Kind of an avante guard webring.
It just seems the community needs a way to find sights that get updated often.
| QUOTE (Adam) |
| The Webring was taken over by some people I'd never heard of around a year ago - I don't think they have much interest in the Shadowrun community and they just wanted it to bolster hits to their site. They denied my request to have it transferred back to our account. |
Uh....considering WizKids/FanPro owns the Shadowrun trademark, can't you armwrestle it from them if you really wanted to?
Auh man... I gotta buy 4 books this year?
More like six and counting.
Personally, I don't think webrings have much relevance anymore. I want to turn the front page of Dumpshock into a Shadowrun blog to point out new sites and other stuff, but all sorts of shit [and not shit ] has kept me away from actually implementing the plan.
] has kept me away from actually implementing the plan.
Speaking of all the shit you are juggling what is the status of Seattle 2063? The downtown tease was just cruel. 
I know its selfish, but I have a new web page I'm trying to generate traffic too, especially with my GM-companion coming out in about a month. I need to trick people into heading to the site so I can recruite editors and maybe an artist or two so my project actually looks like a book
I hope we as a community can come up with something
I hope we as a community can come up with something
| QUOTE (Domino @ Jul 8 2004, 07:42 PM) |
| Speaking of all the shit you are juggling what is the status of Seattle 2063? The downtown tease was just cruel. |
*stabs self in eye*
Every single person who I've asked to do a final edit on it [it needs a couple solid edits to pull it in-line with New Seattle and other Seattle canon] has either fallen off the face of the planet or become mysteriously ill. I'm concentrating on finishing -19, and then I'll deal with Seattle again, somehow. I suspect I'll just hire Michelle Lyons to edit it.
Being a little bit fair, the webring had a rating of 39 (IIRC), meaning it had a lot of bad links among other things. Whoever took it over got the rating up into the 90s.
Yeah! 12 pages! Go, thread! Go!
Only three pages
~J
~J
Huh? When I enter the thread I have a choice of 12 pages. Right at the bottom. Is this something that's variable? IGTTM is 18 pages. Right?
Thanos
Thanos
It's variable. I, for instance, have it set to a hundred posts/page because that makes reviewing parts of the thread more convenient. A reference to the number of posts is more universally applicable
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Adam) | ||
*stabs self in eye* Every single person who I've asked to do a final edit on it [it needs a couple solid edits to pull it in-line with New Seattle and other Seattle canon] has either fallen off the face of the planet or become mysteriously ill. I'm concentrating on finishing -19, and then I'll deal with Seattle again, somehow. I suspect I'll just hire Michelle Lyons to edit it. |
Thanks.
I just wanted an update to make sure it wasn't dead. The wait will be worth it since downtown was great.
You have no idea how good that made me feel. Thanks, I'm glad someone liked it!
Oh and I suppose I should be topical. I've expressed my concerns here a long time back. I'll spare you all the cut and paste.
Necromancy much?
Double necromancy. That thread in LJ-SR is ancient as well.
~J
~J
Someone linked it in another forum. I hadn't seen that last post. So when I posted I felt obligated to be on topic as well.
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