Ok I've been pondering this a bit and wanted to get some third party input. The specifics I use are with the point based generation but they could apply just as well to the priority system.

There seems to me to be a bit of inequity in the racial point costs at creation. Specifically the penalty for being an Elf seems to be too large for the benefit the player gains by being an elf. Elves gain minimal bonuses for being an elf and the cost seems to outweigh the benefit.

Here is a break down of the base races:

Elf +1 Quick, + 2 Charisma, Low Light. Net bonus attributes 3. Bonus ability 1
Ork +3 Body, +2 Strength, -1 Charisma, -1 Intelligence, Low Light. Net 3 Bonus 1
Dwarf +1 Body, +2 Strength, +1 Willpower, thermographic, Resist Disease/Toxin. Net 4 Bonus 2
Troll +5 Body, -1 quickness, +4 strength, -2 Charisma, -2 Int, Thermo, Dermal Armor, Reach. Net 4 Bonus 3.

Now obviously Troll should be the most expensive. But from this Dwarf should fall in line as the second most or the secondary most expensive alternative.

I guess it seems like the Elf gets penalized for no particular good reason. I know they have longer lives but when has that ever really come into play in Shadowrun? I imagine it is to keep them rare but they don't seem like a slightly gimped up version of what a human could do with the same points in the books...

Wait for it.....

Thats because we hate the pointy eared dandelion eaters!

but in all seriousness they can make crazy mages and faces I mean 8 charisma???!!!?? from what I can see both elves and trolls are top of the foodchain ones big mean and scary(highest strength and Bod) and ones pretty and dainty (Highest Quickness and Charisma and no penalties!)

yes that's true. Scary faces but no better mages or shamans.

8 charisma for the elf vs 7 willpower for the dwarf

way better at tossing killer spells than the elf.

Not all penalties/bonuses on certain races are stat-related.

now we get into the racism part of the equation.

Unless you REALLY play it up, its not a penalty.

For elves and dwarves, the difference in cost is more of a popularity contest than a game balance one. Elves are "too popular" so putting them Priority C helps keep their numbers relatively limited, whereas dwarves (despite having some overall great benefits) aren't as popular, so they're cheaper at Priority D.

Trolls and orks are seperated for the opposite reason; game balance. If they had the same costs, more people who prefer to build characters based on their stats would probably play a troll (which are eight times more rare than an ork) over an ork. So that's why they have a disparity there.

Just as an aside, you left out the biggest penalty for a dwarf and one of the biggest ones for the troll: Dwarves have to pay +10% for much of their equipment to be adjusted for their size, and trolls have to pay +25%.

Here's also a better breakdown for an elf's "net cost:"

Bonus Attribute Points: 3 (6 Build Points, even though they should cost more since Humans can only get a single attribute over 6 with this edge).
Exceptional Attribute Points: 3 (6 Build Points, even though the Charisma one should cost more since Humans can only apply EAP once per attribute).
Low-Light Vision: 2 Build Points
Bad Karma: -5 Build Points
Racism: ~-1 Build Point
Net Total: 8+ Build Points
Actual Cost: 10 Build Points

So they're basically paying less than 2 Build Points for the ability to have two more Bonus Attribute Points and one extra level of Exceptional Attribute Point applied over a human. Don't really see the problem there.

That's a good breakdown of why elves cost 10 pts to play, according to 3e rules.

Tomahawk? What to you think?

Are player scum? Can we REALLY trust them?

yes Odin they do.

But if we look at only the base cost of 10 pts vs 5 pts, Dwarves the best if you're on a budget.


As for the racism issue, if your players commonly refer to each other as ugly trog and tree hugger or one of your players street name is Norm because he is a human, bias coming from an NPC doesn't really mean anything.

Unless, it the Humanis goons and 20 or their closest friends.

Tomahawk, if you ever get the chance, check out the cost for making a meta in 1st edition... Priority A regardless of race, suffers racism AND a random allergy. 2nd edition they took out the random allergy. Be glad you live in the diverse and politically correct 3rd edition.

Feel free to adjust the costs however you like. It's your game. The rules are just a guideline.

Actually its MY game.

If Tomahawk wants to run a racially biased game with new house rule....

I could use a break

/edit for spelling

The elf cost is one of the things that irks me the most about Shadowrun. Especially when compared to dwarves. If it was only me running our campaign and we were back at the beginning, I'd have inverted them.

In my book, it's the cost for trolls that are really crippling. Sure, they can be monsters in combat, but if you want to play a "normal" troll who's physically average but smart and sophisticated, it's a major drain second only to shapeshifters and their attribute requirements.

other negatives based on race:

• Dwarves get a penalty for trying to handle two-handed weapons (polearms and stuff).
• Dwarves and Trolls get a penalty for trying to use weapons that haven't had their handles/triggers adjusted for their smaller size.
• Dwarves get a running modifier penalty.
• Dwarves pay +10% extra for all equipment costs.
• Trolls pay +25% extra for all equipment costs.

Also note that many people consider bonuses to mental stats to be worth more than bonuses to physical stats. The physical stats are usually much cheaper (in terms of both nuyen and essence cost) to modify than the mental ones.

I've always wanted to make a dwarf kickboxer/capoeira master just for the novelty of it.

That, and short people have a much easier time doing acrobatics.

Capoeira seems to be very focused on kicks (this just from observation - anybody who actually knows what they're talking about feel free to correct me...). I would think that somebody with long arms but stubby little legs would have a real disadvantage compared to what he could do with, say, boxing.

Yes, but I'd want to play a kicking-oriented dwarf.

Someone give Polaris a call, he could provide his insight.

~J

There's plenty past page 11. The really good flaming doesn't get going for a while yet.

If you're talking actual content, though, you can probably stop at 11.

~J

I don't think elves get screwed over that badly, myself. Dr. Funk broke down the costs pretty well, and an elf is worth the 2- build point deficit when you consider how the elven Attribute bonuses can be applied. Even a mundane elven sammie under the Priority system doesn't come out that badly - you usually wind up basically sacrificing 4 skill points to get 3 Attribute points, which is a good trade.

Orks and dwarves are a better deal on the surface, but orks typically start out tougher but advance more slowly, while dwarves have two potentially devastating disadvantages with their slower running speed and penalty for using non-modified gear. Trolls belong in the 10-point category with elves because they can be so brutally effective in the tank/close combat role.

I was bored so I decided to scribble the following down. I came up with some values for the various racial advantages (see below) and then calculated each race's value (how much they cost on their own) and build point value (how much they cost after subtracting their Build Point costs). I figured it'd give people a baseline for discussions like this in the future.

• Attribute Bonus (5 points): This is a combination of Bonus Attribute Point and Exceptional Attribute Point with an extra point thrown in to reflect that metahumans can still select these edges as easily as a Human can.
• Attribute Penalty (-5 points): This is the opposite of Attribute Bonus, but this time the extra point represents the fact that Humans don't have to suffer a similar penalty at all. It's basically a pity point.
• Bad Karma (-6 points): This was changed to -6 points because metahumans can still take the actual flaw on top of this one, whereas a Human can only "take" it once.
• Big Hands, Little Guns (1 point): This represents the troll's bonus for using two-handed firearms in one hand and other similar, but minor, bonuses they get along the same line. I'm also assuming that it covers their ability to stave off recoil somewhat easier and stuff like that. I consider it minor because few characters will take advantage of this, whereas most other racial advantages will come up with just about any type of character.
• Dermal Armor (4 point): This is identical to Toughness but, much like the Attribute Bonus edge above, an extra point was tacked on to represent that a troll can also take Toughness on top of this.
• Equipment Prices (-3 or -5 points): This applies only to dwarves (a 10% penalty) and trolls (a 25% penalty). Note that this penalty also includes the penalty for using equipment not customized to their size, hence the higher cost than one might expect.
• Natural Immunity: Racial (2 points): This is roughly equal to the Toughness edge but only applies to toxins and diseases, hence the lower cost.
• Racism (-1 point): Used the Elf Poser flaw as an example. The prejudice it provides is limited to elves, but that's offset by the fact that it only occurs when you're known to be a poser... so I figured it'd be a good flaw to use to judge the cost.
• Reach (5 points): This is a tremendous advantage in melee combat and one that no other metahuman race can duplicate. With that in mind, I'm going to treat it as an Aptitude with an extra point applied since it can be used in any melee situation, not just with a single skill.
• Running Modifier (-5 points): This is a pretty big and underestimated penalty for dwarves.
• Thermographic Vision (3 points): Slightly more useful than low-light vision on the whole.

Okay, now that that's out of the way, here's my calculations for the five base metahuman races. If you don't agree with any of the values I placed on the edges or flaws above, feel free to change them and recalculate to your heart's content.

DWARVES

Benefits: Attribute Bonuses (Body, Strength x2, Willpower), Bad Karma, Equipment Prices 1, Natural Immunity, Racism, Running Modifier, Thermographic Vision.
Value: 12 points.
Build Point Value: 7 points.

ELVES

Benefits: Attribute Bonuses (Quickness and Charisma x2), Bad Karma, Low-Light Vision, Racism.
Value: 12 points.
Build Point Value: 2 points.

HUMANS

Benefits: None; they are the baseline with which the other races are judged.
Value: 0 points.
Build Point Value: 0 points.

ORKS

Benefits: Attribute Bonuses (Body x3 and Strength x2), Attribute Penalties (Intelligence and Willpower), Bad Karma, Low-Light Vision, Racism.
Value: 12 points.
Build Point Value: 7 points.

TROLLS

Benefits: Attribute Bonuses (Body 5 and Strength 3), Attribute Penalties (Charisma 2, Intelligence 2, and Quickness), Bad Karma, Dermal Armor, Equipment Prices, Reach, Racism, Thermographic Vision.
Value: 17 points.
Build Point Value: 7 points.


Hmm. Believe it or not, I did all the edges and flaws calculations before I compiled the values for the races. I'm pretty shocked at the outcome. I had no idea it was so close...

Basically all of the metahuman races are gaining an advantage over a Human for their build point costs. Elves do get "the shaft" to a minor degree, but they're still outperformining a Human by 2 points. Their popularity as a player race is the sole reason they were placed at Priority C/10 Build Points, however, as placing them at Priotiy D/5 Build Points would put their Build Point Value at the same as the other metahuman races.

So... that said, there shouldn't be any problem adjusting an Elf's value to Priority D/5 Build Points, but don't be surprised if your players start playing them almost exclusively. They're the only metahuman race in the game that doesn't have a noticable penalty beyond limited racism and Bad Karma, however, so you should take that into consideration. They basically only get fringe benefits for their attribute modifiers (like Dwarves), whereas Orks and Trolls have additional penalties beyond their attribute modifiers (fewer Knowledge and Language Skills, less armor for Trolls, etc.). I'm personally happy with them the way they are, but that's just me.

'Course, if you really want to balance all the races, you should also consider doing something to give humans the equivalence of 7 points of Edges. But something tells me that the people who don't care for Elves costing a little more are already sour towards Humans and don't want to lose any other bonuses, too.

On the Bad Karma, did you mean to type -4 instead of -6? Because it sounded like you were saying it's less of a disadvantage, and the costs don't add up otherwise. Also, trolls get +4, not +3, to Strength, so their final value would actually be 22. I don't have my books with me right now, but don't dwarves have +2 to their Body for resisting diseases and toxins? That would give them that Natural Immunity (Racial) Edge twice, pumping up their value to 14 points.


I like the list. It's a comprehensive and well-rationalized set of Edges and Flaws to figure out the "real" cost of a race. Of course, people can probably quibble forever about the point values, knowing Dumpshock.


Personally, I don't find any of the races too unbalanced. But (I'm putting this question out to everyone), if you had to "balance" humans so they weren't screwed over so much, what would you do? For Priority, all that you really need to do is use Sum-to-Ten. For the build point system, I would probably either offer humans the Attribute Bonus on the Attribute of their choice, to represent humanity's diversity, or a 5-point bonus to Resources, to represent humanity's (usually) better economic circumstances. Then, you could also give them two extra "free" Contacts (the equivalent of the Extra Contact Edge taken twice). That would add up to 7 points, putting them more on a par with the other races.

Behold my astonishing grasp on simple mathematics.

Yes, Bad Karma should have been -4 instead of -6 (so increase all the values for non-humans above by +2) and I completely botched up on the Troll, so he needs to come up another +5 points on top of that. That gives us a running total of:

Dwarf: 9 Build Points.
Elf: 4 Build Points.
Human: 0 Build Points.
Ork: 9 Build Points.
Troll: 14 Build Points.

As for how to "balance" out Humans (who now need about 9 points instead of 7 due to my fubar math), I don't think I'd give them a 5-point Resource bonus. Humans should be able to be as destitute as any other race if that fits their concept.

What I usually do in my games is give Humans free Bonus Attribute Point/Exceptional Attribute Point edge in a single Attribute of their choosing to reflect their more versatile upbringing. Changing that to the Attribute Bonus edge above, that would cover 5 points there. Another two could be handled with the Extra Contact Levels (letting them increase their two free Level 1's to Level 2's, get a single Level 2 on top of their normal freebies, or get two more Level 1's). That leaves two more points available. Perhaps they could get the Blandness edge since, in this Sixth World where freaks are a dime a dozen, ordinary Humans just kind of melt into the background.

I dunno. Just some ideas.

Actually, your math was right the first time, for the -4 for Bad Karma. That's why I thought the Bad Karma was meant to be -4 - it was all correct if the Bad Karma was -4.

So Dwarves are 9 if I was right and it was +2 to Body vs. Diseases/Toxins, Elves are still 2, humans still 0, orks still 5, and trolls are 12.

I guess elves do get shortchanged compared to the other metatypes, but humans still get shafted the most of all.

Yeah, good thing this isn't a game of just numbers or that might really matter!

I have to say that I like the system the way it is. As it stands, 3 out of my 6 main players are elves, and I had to talk one of the others out of it. Really, people just like being elves becuase they're "cool".

Glyph, while I quible with Doc's numbers also keep in mind that one has to actually pay for metatypes, unlike humans. Humans aren't really shafted in a BP system, unlike priority.

To Doc, my quibbles

Bad Karma is the exact same thing for a human vs a normal meta. No player I've ever known would be willing to go 40 total karma per karma pool, so whether meta's can take it again or not is moot IMO.

On gear. While some don't really play up the probems this causes in their games, as a fairly tall individual, I personally can attest to living in a world designed for small (or big) people is a constant struggle. Can you imagine trying to go up stairs with legs half the size? Trying to find a toliet that fits a troll's 9' tall frame? I dunno what I would personally put here... and if not played up in game, I 'spose yer numbers are workable.

Racism. While I don't think it would manifest as Canon describes, it surely would be there, and more widespread then a single point would accurately represent. An Elf Poser can take the ears off when the humanis goons come around, Jake the ork next to him, isn't as lucky. Also, racism for orks and trolls is a bit more common then it is for dwarves and elves. Applying a single point across the board doesn't make sense to me. IMO, 1 for elves, 2 for dwarves, 3 for trolls, and 5 for orks.

Elves get off lightest because they're the pretty people. In some cases it's "cool" to be an elf, and there are humans that want to be them. I don't see any poser orks.

Dwarves are the forgotten meta. They aren't as common as elves or orks, and they don't have the physical size to remind people they're there. They would be passed over, often literally, as the humans forget to look down to look for people. Add the cheek squeezing, the mechanic stereotype, and the fantasy expectations of the gruff dwarf with the heart of gold. Least they don't have people actively gunning for them like the orks.

Trolls. While this may seem a bit odd, coming before the orks, there's two mitigating reasons why. First is the respect they get for being so big, and while their strength does also inspire fear, the second mitigating part kicks in: the assumption that all trolls are utterly stupid. Humans will naturally feel a sense of smug superiority over trolls, and this will lead them to belay their fear of trolls, assuming they can trick any troll they come across.

Orks. Firstly, they're ugly, but not as different as a troll is, it's akin to the revulsion a zombie gets for being very close to a human, but obviously not. Secondly, they're physically stronger then a normal human, but not noticably larger. Therefore the respect doesn't come, but the physical insecurities do. They're statistically dumber then a human, but not enough to mean much more to a human then to give excuses. Then there's the fact they're the most common meta, whereas trolls are "unique;" orks and humans would compete more often for the same resources. It's the fact that orks and humans are very simular, yet obviously different that causes Humanis to have lynch parties, and given the fact they're humanis' favorite target, I give them an extra point in this column.

The d0rf running mod. Satyr legs cost 6 BPs for a 25% improvement vs a 33% reduction that d0rfs get. And that 6 BPs also take in account the fact it makes the character look like a freak. Considering that, -8 points for that isn't that far out of line to me.

And Low Light? I assume you assigned a 2 point value to this?

And Trolls have a +4 to Str, not +3, giving Trolls a value of 22 under your values.

So with those changes, which are all in my opinion, Dwarves are at 7, Elves are at 11, Orks are at 7, and Trolls are at 20. Which just illustrates why Trolls are the munchkin's wet dream, especially if their problems with the enviroment are not played up. The rest of the metas are all within tolerance, IMO.

I never thought humans were shafted. Strange. My players usually acomplish more powerfull human characters than when choosing any other race. In 2nd ed i changed meta-race to priority C for all races eccept human. Elf magicans get so feeble its sad, so maybe that would be a good idea for 3rd ed as well. None of my players have chosen to be an elf in years. (edit) Oops, elfs are allready C priority in 3rd ed. Seems none of my players has made an elf since 2nd ed then.