He just walks around kicking everyone in the shins!

Hey, now. Let's keep it above the shoelaces!

So you're saying that elves and trolls should cost 15 to 20 BPs?! AND give 'em an allergy?!?

Hell with that, hombre. Keep talking if you want to sell me on it.

BTW, are elves still dietary vegitarians in SR3? I thought that got changed.

Calm down partner! Put away that sixgun slowly before I use my field telefone on you. That's better

Suggestion would be:

+ Another 7-10 BP for Trolls[2]

+ Another 5-7 BP and maybe a minimum level allergie against iron for elves[1]

The "Allergie:Meat" would be something only an Elf-hater would use in addition(they are not required to be Veggies)[3] Allergie:Iron OTOH keeps in line with common folks lore on elfs (can't touch cold iron).


Birdy



[1] With all the plastic/ceramic stuff around it's not as bad as it might appear

[2] Another 3-5 and "Impulsive" as well as "Bloodlust" suggested itself until I remembered that most SC Trolls I met had those (at least from the way they where played)

[3] On the other hand I like Elfs to suffer. And not being able to eat meat is torture IMHO.

Nope, didn't forget them smileys. Just wanted to make the old joke and your comment seemed right for it [2]


Given that 8 out of 10 rounds I got to play in look like a cross-breed between "Elfquest" and "Magic-the Gathering" Elf characters are IMHO too cheap. More often than not they are played as "Humans with an ear-problem" and they get away with it since it's hard to argue racism with them (SR elfes obviously being Vulkan infiltrators [Small ear elfes] and not Manga infiltrators [large ear elfes]) since they have few (if any) visible hints. I have heard the "take an elf they get a lot of benefits" all too often. So maybe giving them a few negative side effects (Iron is rare, not non-existing) and raising their costs will return to the "Humans with Quota Meta" group composition.

As for Trolls: Basically the costs are there to kill them off as characters through a "soft kill". All I had the dis-pleasure to "meet" where monsters that where used as a weapon by the player to intimidate (Through tread of constant combat) the GM and group to do it "their way". Got my Sammy a few marks on his grenade launcher...[1]


It's a matter of taste and the tainted by the groups I played with. The current group suffered similar and won't touch SR with the famous 10ft pole. And IMHO the SR elfes (at least in the style commonly encountered by me) are massively Tolkien infected.


Birdy



[1] Troll player: I want to shoot something!
GM: There's nothing to shoot. S3 (our mage - stun ball) and S1 (me using Tranc ammo) disabled two soldiers on patrol and you can escape [Alpen Interdiction Zone]
TP: But my character needs to shed <Adrenalien> I seek out and eliminate the guards.

Got himself in big trouble since we left him alone at that. Nearly got killed (Nice GM) Turned a nice "City slickes in the Alps" into a "I search somethink to belittle/trash/anger/kill" scenario.

[2] Original was an Artillery officer(German) to a US infantry guy during a Reforger/Free Running exercise.

Why did the 500 pound gorilla steal the chimpanzees banana - Because it could

And actually it's kind of funny. At least if you remember, that on the other end of that phoneline was a batterie of howitzers (and it was "dummy ammo")

Birdy

I wouldn't go that far. Having a 3-4 charisma is almost mandatory IMO. Between etiquette, negotiation, intimidation (my personal fav for non-faces), and to a lesser degree, leadership, you've got some pretty handy skills that overlap with the face and ease the burden on him. Plus you don't have to wait in the car all the time.

Echo that! I've never heard anyone say that about elves. In fact most people hate elves around here it seems. More times than not its "elves cost too much" or "Trolls cost too much...oh yeah, and elves, too."

It doesn't matter. A human with Charisma 5 had to pay 5 points whereas the elf only had to pay 3... that's two points that get to be used elsewhere. And if any of those scores go over 6, that's 2 more build points they didn't have to spend per point.

frankly I feel elves should be shafted they're already physically/mentally superior (to humans) although they do have a few flaws (bad karma,racism etc.) they have no penalties .All the other races are better in a few attributes but one or two attributes are always penalized to a degree frankly I'd be perfectly happy with elves being a lower cost but I'd want them to have a -1 to body as I see no reason they should have a body attribute on par with humans.

They're bigger than we are.

It's easy to overlook, because elves are lightly built relative to their height, but they're still a head taller than humans, and more massive in absolute terms. They don't get the hefty Body bonus of orks, which are a head taller than humans and more heavily built, both relatively and absolutely, but they're still big enough that the lack of penalty is reasonable.

Um, so you are saying it's a bad idea to play a sammie who isn't a social cripple? Who may actually be likable? Who actually can get a date?

What about your contacts?
What about making _new_ contacts?
What about talking yourself out of tight spot where guns won't help?
What about making a good first impression on someone?
What about having freinds and neighbors who care about you?
What about getting laid?

As a player and GM, I like characters with depth and personality.

A person with a low charisma in Shadowrun has a weak personality. Hes not just ugly-that's a flaw. He's not just a jerk - that's also a flaw. He's just a nobody, who nobody will listen to or care about. A grey man, leaving little imprint on the world -in the bad sense - the useful aspects of that are an edge. He's a minor irritant of a person, who's existance is of no consequence (At least until, as these people sometimes do, he goes postal in a McDonalds somewhere).

He's that guy who hangs on the edge of a social group, not really taking part, and mostly ignored by the rest of the group. He's the guy who will settle for being the 'pack omega' that everyone picks on because it's the only way he can belong.

Low Charisma characters get no respect. Sure they might be able to whup somebody, but that just makes them dangerous, not respected. Sort of like a rabid dog.
------------
I followed the link to that huge 'polaris war'. I think years of minmaxing have warped some people's perceptions of what is 'survivable'. I can crunch numbers too, but I do it to make a character fit as closely as I can to a mental concept. The results run over the entire range of combat effectiveness. My ex-lawyer was _not_ a combat machine, but did have his uses. My street ganger didn't know a damn thing about assault rifles, but could boost a car, break kneecaps, and face-down punks. My ex-detective street sam could hold his own in a fight, but was most useful in leg-work. My ex-trid-stunt-man could be nearly unstoppable.

The point is, each character is optimised toward being that character, not toward any artificial guideline of 'survivability'. I'm not saying you need to generate retired kindergarten teachers to roleplay properly. That's just stupid. If you have a character concept that could believably be of use in a shadowrun group, then as long as you stay as close as possible to the concept, the numbers will take care of themselves, one way or the other.

Some people have trouble with this concept. I wonder how long it will take before the 'Spoiled Runaway Corp College Kid' character in my game will get to use his highest skills (Gunnery[Drones] and Rifle). Hint - I made it quite clear that this was a street-level game. If he's smart and ruthless, he'll eventually get his hands on some drones - but how often does a street punk get his hands on armed milspec combat drones? The best way for him to use those skills is to help the group get a Rep and move up the 'shadows food chain'.

Well, that was my rant on the subject.

On the other hand there is raw ability and there is skill. Take Fred Astair and Gene Kelly, two great actors/dancers. One had a huge amount of raw ability (a high attribute, low skillcost) so he could do with less training than most and still be great. The other had to train extremly hard (low attribute, high skillcost) Both are great.

Some of the greatest speakers in history where rather bland personalities, even brooding and depressive. They just trained hard.

Sure, it does cost buildpoints but you can start out and even life with a low charisma. Actually some characters should have a low attribute there to represent how people react to them initially.

Birdy

We need a "Toilet" smilie



Birdy

The problem with your theory here is that in the minds of many players, if they're starting off with a low Charisma they have no plans on developing or even learning a single Social Skill beyond maybe a token point or two in Etiquette. But I've seen way too many sample characters on this forum that had no Social Skills whatsoever. Not even Etiquette 1. And shock, shock, they practically always had a Charisma of 1, too.

So maybe it's me generating thinks like a Charisma-2 character with skills like:

Intimidation/Physical 3/5
Etiquette:Gang 2/4

and quite some money in contacts as an ex-ganger turned shadowrunner.

Birdy

It's going to reduce the cost for Etiquette 8. The important level, though, is Charisma 7, as that's the one that gives you another point of TN mod in certain social tests.

~J

I use it for determining people's reactions to a character when he is not actively using a skill to get something. It is a reflection of the person's true personality when he's 'off-camera', and being himself. It's a reflection of how a character gets along with others once they get to know him.

Faceman Joe has a CHA of 1, and Ettiquette 6.

He goes up to somebody, asks for directions, chats about the weather, and leaves, with the person thinking, 'what a great guy'.

Faceman Joe goes home. He finds that his room-mate is holding a party in the con-apt, even though Joe _told_ him that he needed his sleep tonight. And the Landlady is hassling him about his pet turtles again. And his girlfriend has left a message, dumping him because she can't get close to him. His team comes by in the morning, berating him for oversleeping, and sneering at his excuses. "Get in there and smooze that guard, Joe. We'll take care of the job while he's distracted. And the bar tab tonight is yours."

Walter Mitty.
Arnold Rimmer.
The faceless, ignored little men who inspired the phrase, 'going postal'.
That wimp who was locking up women in his basement and beating them, because that was the only way he could enjoy any power in a relationship.

Possibly good skills, no strength of personality.
One of those people who folks try to push around because they never push back, in a social sense. They aren't neccesarily easy to push around (could have a high WIL), but they don't project any strength in their relationships. They can be charming, insightful, stubborn, or crude. Makes no difference.

You probably know this person in your peer group. I know I do. They are very common, but you don't think about them, because they do not loom large in your mind. Perhaps at some point in your life you _were_ them. Perhaps you still are. Perhaps I was. Online, it's impossible to say. It's a very sad state to see.

Being a 98-pound weakling vs spirits is just the icing on the cake (or in this case, the creampuff).

I am, of course, describing the extreme - the 1 Charisma character.

Yes!

But with a minus 1 to Strength, I'd make elves cost 5 BPs in a heartbeat! However, that would also make them have a net total of 2 'bonus' attrubte points - too low compared to other races who have a minimum of 3 or 4 (some metavariant has more I think)

But as I said, I like elves the way they are, at the cost they are at. For a strict number cruncher, they are the 'worst' buy for race (excluding shapeshifters, and possibly NightOnes, Wakyambi and Nymphs), but they do have their benefits regardless.

But I still think dwarves and their variants rule!