Enough to cover the whole Aztec Pyramid? Maintaning a high state of alertness to an undetermined period of time?

And if they do that they

a) Look like they're scared of their own shadow, or
b) About to kick off a corp war.

There's nothing I mentioned there that they don't already have, in all likelihood.

Or, to put it another way, the Renraku Arcology had all this and more. I doubt it's considered at all unusual for a major corp building.

~J

What you really want to do is put your delivery vehicle on a ballistic trajectory instead of flying it into the target. That way the only thing they can do to stop it is get it to explode prematurely, because shooting at it is not going to change the trajectory very much.

If your projectile is purely mass, then yes. If it's got explosives or fuel, you can reduce the damage a lot by blowing it up away from the building, even if every individual piece of it goes on to hit the building.

Edit: I need to read more carefully; you just said that.

though getting fuel to leak out and fall in a less concentrated manner will still help.

~J

I may have underestimated the umber of aztech face buildings.
I was working on one in the capital city of every American state or similarly sized city around the world. ~200-250. I have been forced to revise that estimate upwards to the order of 1000-1500 making the tactic far less viable.

On the subject of 9/11 it had a massive change on America. Even in Australia we got new laws and discretional powers for police related to suspected terrorists that would never have goten past without such prompting. And all of it useless I hasten to point out. In America constitutional rights where lost without a vote (there was a list of songs banned from the radio for several months including most anti war and anti establishment titles). How much bigger would the impact have been if the attack had been followed up with another attack of comparable scope within a month and another within months of that?

The armour was intended to be about 10 points (enough to bounce almost all non AV weaponry) I believe that using varied tactics I could take out a significant number of there face buildings causing them no end of problems but the revised estimate means it would not take them from AAA rating unless I could destroy 400+ sites. Not a practical possibility.

Now I will clarify the 2 other tactics I mentioned.

A matrix attack against a corporation designed to sever there matrix links and get them suspected of or wars activities. This would be a large operation and not guarantied to succeed. It is more likely to do so if core wars vires is released the next day but that would require position of such a virus. Your biggest risk hear is a Judas but even if all people working on it are honourable your chance of success is only moderate.

As a separate proposal I suggested that the matrix operated under the sufferance of every individual Decker. By the rules a single decker with a smart frame program can spawn a DDOS attack that will take down almost any system. Most will shut themselves down within seconds because of the massive security tally that will be generated. Some systems that never shut down will probably succumb to the massive number of crash host operations being attempted. If you send enough frames in one of them will fluke the successes necessary to crash the system. Within days a single decker could set up this type of attack on every RTG on the planet (or even most LTGs) for simultaneous execution. This would severely hamper global communications for several hours witch is a very long time in the business world of SR. this will not destroy any single mega corp but if appropriately targeted it could be a useful tactic for anything from distracting or disabling security at a sight to part of a corporate takeovers attempt. (although the corp court would likely not approve). Total disruption of the matrix would be pure vandalism as far as I can see.

Edward

Aztech Pyramid Protector Mk IA

Body: 4
Armor: 24
Cargo: 0
Handling: 4/8
AutoNav: 2
Sensor: 10
Pilot: 3
Seating: -
Entry: -
Load: 5
Speed: 25
Accel.: 5
Sig.: 8
Fuel: 200PF EFC
Econ.: 0.2km/PF
Chassis: Industrial Mover, Medium

S.I.: 3

Avail.: 32/32d

Cost: 654,760

Other Features: ECD-6, ED-3, Power Amplifiers-10, RAM-3 (factored in), RCEM-6, Removed Manual Controls, Remote Control Interface, Rigger Adaptation, Small Remote AA Turret (Vigilant AC, 200 AV rounds, Gunnery Recoil Adj 6), Smartlink Integration.

The absolute best protection from all sorts of threats. Sensors-10 with Flux 27 (21 with ECD engaged, 31/25 when kept atop the installation) guarantee that ECM is worthless against it. It has a Signature of 6 even when its Sensors and ECD are running at full flux, and can hide its presence from most foes with the ED-3 if necessary. It is proof against all non-AV attack and many AV attacks, and can dish out massive amounts of damage accurately 5 klicks away, while its RCEM makes infiltrating the security rigging network extremely difficult.

With the ECD engaged, in a good defensive position, it can sensor sweep up to 60 kilometers away, or up to the horizon, where no ED can yet affect it. Up close, only a dedicated stealth vehicle running silent (minimum required ED, little if any sensors, no radio or other transmissions) has a chance of fooling its powerful sensor array.

[/Sales Pitch]
I don't think the price of that's prohibitive, considering that sensor array works wonders in detecting any kind of intrusion, and the drone is great for many physical security needs.

A high-RoF autocannon would rip most airplanes into shreds in a very small time frame. See the Phalanx vs F-18 scene in Under Siege for a pretty good example.

If you don't need quite that much security, you can get off for less than 300,000 by using a Light Industrial Mover, Sensors-9, ECD-4 and a HMG in a Mini Turret. It'll no longer destroy tanks, and even a 10-million dedicated stealth vehicle could fool it (compared to the 14-million vehicle required for the full version).

The only way you could take down a AAA is by somehow gaining control of the company or *fooling the other AAA's into an all-out war to eradicate the Big A.

If you can drop a corps stock price to 10% of what it was the previous day, you can watch the corp disintegrate as the vultures buy off pieces.

Keeping in mind that Aztechnology is the second-largest mega in the world after the corp war, and that most of the stock is probably owned by people who aren't going to sell it, I doubt that most vultures could carry off the pieces.

~J

As the big A is not publicly listed you could never cause control to move. However many subsidiaries have a significant number of traded shares. If you dropped there share price the vultures could damage it. Certainly enough to take way its number 2 position maybe enough to drop it to AA (remember vultures includes the AAA corps) but you would not destroy the corp.

Also although I have nor read the references myself I have been told that aztechnolegy keeps a large reserve of propaganda and product releases to bump up its share price after any embarrassing incident.

Edward

As a GM, I don't need to know how Aztechnology would defend itself against such attacks. All I need to know is that it's a megacorp and has people on its staff smarter than I am who have built its defenses. None of the attacks I've heard here, Edward, would cost it more than 100,000,000 nuyen in my campaign.

Aztechnology would then write an adventure for Shadowrun Missions where 500 different teams of Shadowrunners playing in different conventions and homes all over the world all tracked down your Shadowrunner and killed him at least 480 different ways. And each team member would get paid 4,500 nuyen (more if they made their Negotiation(5) test).

[Edit] I'm responding to Edward's description of a Shadowrunner taking down a Megacorp. Not to the idea of an Omega Order. Sorry I was unclear.[Edit]

OT but anyway,

Post S11 in Australia the government hired security guards to stand on all the bridges to "prevent terrorism" - just normal, unarmed security guards standing on a bridge 24 hours a day so that, if a bomb goes off or a plane flies into it, we'll know.

It makes me very, very angry.

Did it make citizens think the government was doing something for them? Then it was worth it, because it let the business of the nation continue with less disturbance. And it reduced unemployment.

And, best of all, the security companies owned by politicians (or people that contributed money to politicians) made some money.

OurTeam, are you suggesting that Aztechnology could survive an Omega Order? That is the standard, and only, punishment the corporate court hands down for a corp SUSPECTED, not convicted, merely suspected of core wars activity, a successful frame up of any corp showing it engaging in core wars will result in an omega order

FrostyNSO I completely agree, the only way to take down a corp, short of a 35 billion nuyen grant from a dead dragon's will, is to convince the other AAA corps to launch an omega order.

It wouldn't serve the corporations interests to have another mega fall so soon. In fact, it would be a huge blow to all of them. The primary point of stature for a megacorporation is that they are stable, more so than any nation. If they start going after one another so soon, the consumer/employee faith will plumate hurting all of them. Aztechnology is in the best position to survive an Omega Order as well because they have an entire nation to call their own, no challengers much like Cross. Wuxing is the weakest of the megas followed by Novatech and then Renraku. But for now, the megas want everything nice and smooth. Fuchi was a fluke is the message they want to send, even putting most of the blame on Dunkelzahn when he was just the straw. Therefore, I don't see them handing out an Omega Order anytime soon.

It depends on how dangerous Aztech ends up becoming.

Having a country is one thing, having civil insurrection while packs of hungry wolves attack your flanks is another matter entirely.

And if you accept the threat posed by Aztech's exploration of blood magic and various Horror ties, a bequest from a dead dragon might not be needed for a number of the other, more living movers and shakers to play a more active role.

Between the immortal elves and the dragons, nobody is really interested in seeing Horrors or Horror-spawn get an larger foothold than absolutely necessary.

-Siege

Right, so do you really want to push them up against a wall and give them no options but to call down some Horror, or do you let them sit at the table so long as they keep their play-evils locked up like Saeder Krupp and Renraku do?

Nobody I know actually thought that the security mods would stop a determined and moderately inventive terrorist. I just thought the government was wasting money and making it easier for a cop with a chip on his shoulder to lock me up (several of my hobbies involve tools that could be used to make explosive or incendiary devices. I don’t want to have to explain to a jury of stupid reactionary idiots (pears my eye) that I was no going to reconfigure the brewing equipment to turn the boat building and wood working supplies into low grade explosives).

Of cause I don’t associate with many of the stupid people. I hang around with role-players with significant experience finding holes in security plans. Unfortunately there are interpretations of the law that would make me a terrorist for pointing out the futility and the waist of public money and loss of freedoms for minimal increase in security.

Was it not a major American figure that said words to the effect of “any nation that would give up liberty for a measure of security deserves nether liberty or security”. Of cause quoting that these days is probably unpolitic at the least.

On a game related note I freely admit that attempting the strategy would not be a good thing. And they would be justifiably be hunting me and I would be a very bad man for killing all those people. But there comes a time when all you have has been taken away and all you want to do is make those that took it away suffer. The only things of value this character has left are his family when they are gone he will be a bad man seeking bloody vengeance until aztechnolegy no longer exists or he is dead (probably the latter).

Edward

So Edward, you think magic is gonna help you get that explosive laden t-bird to an Aztech pyramid? What makes you think you waltz past a Blood spirit that even catches Ghostwalker's attention?

We have missiles that can shoot down objects re-entering the atmosphere at nearly mach 24. Fast forward to shadowrun a couple decades and include systems like ANDREWS, and I don't think the T-bird will make it.

I'll go so far as to speculate that Mr. Franklin was never responsible for maintaining security in an age of automatic weapons, high explosives and fanatics looking for Paradise.

-Siege

I'd go as far as saying it wouldn't change his opinion. Notice the key usage of the word "essential" as a qualifier.

I'll let you field the debate for what qualifies as "essential."

-Siege

You guys sound like communists!...or wait, I guess its Islamic terrorists now. Support President Bush in everything he does because he's the president and a good Christian! *Salute*

im sorry about this, i dont usually post guys on the acount of me being a small time shadowrun player but i have to ask you

when has ANYONE even seen a fairlight excalibur? its just so unlikely that THEM would leave it out on a bench or something so US could just grab it for some 'quik loot'

I dont know about you GM's and old skool players but the runs that my chars get involved in are usually so tight on time that even looking at a secure cabinet marked 'grasscutter deck' would get him/her killed about a dozen times over

-Icarus

It only takes 2 spells to prevent weapons lock, Improved invisibility and stealth. I may need to have a mage research a vehicle version of each (comparable to mask/vehicle mask) add in the spirit powers guard, conceal and movement. The key portion of the attack is speed. It is possible that the astral protections on an Aztec building will detect the incoming projectile but they cant give the guns and missiles targeting information in the seconds they have (if ever). From the time the vehicle enters the astray watched zone to impact should be measured in seconds not time for spirits to stop a vehicle so warded with any reliability.

I maintain that the chance of success on a single strike is high.

Icarus- (and I think maybe we should let him hijack the thread back to its original purpose now) if your players are on such a tight schedule I suggest they are biting of unusually tuff runs or they are planing badly. Any plan should include signifigant time for unnesasary things. Evon if you don’t want to go looking for extra loot you should include breathing time. The reason for this is that when things don’t go as planed (you get pined down by security for 5 min, cant move fast due to injury, pay object not as clearly marked as you thought) you want some time in the plan to pick up the slack. If you don’t need it you ether grab some loot (if available) take a breather for a moment or progress to the next stage ahead of schedule (depending on safety) if your plan allows no room to breath and improvise you will die the first time you meet the unexpected.

Edward

Stealth does not affect Sensor Lock, it only comes into play on special occasions where "hearing" the target vehicle would matter.

Whether a GM allows Invisibility to fool Sensors and by how much is totally up to him. I personally wouldn't allow it to help much, since so much of how RL vehicle sensors work isn't based on visible light or infrared. If your GM agrees with whoever wrote the particular Shadowrun FAQ, however, your chances of succes become infinitely higher.

AE how do you see sonsors working an on what wavelength, just radar or more?

At least when you get to the high-rating stuff the Sensor packages should include just about everything conceivable, only a fraction of which based on light or sound. Especially at long ranges radar will remain very important, as shown by the existance of the Radar-Absorbent Material Customization Option with a whopping max rating of 3.

Even Sensors 0 contain basic ultrasound proximity detectors.

~J

ok so we need something to defeat light. something to defeat sound, something to defeat radar something to defeat IR something to defeat UV, anything else?

eh, I don't think a tight schedule means you are planning poorly. I think it means you are trying to minimize exposure. There's nothing wrong with that, assuming you don't want to get caught. Less time at the target means less time you can get caught, less time for something unexpected to happen, and less time for the opposition to respond if something does go wrong.

Something to defeat every EMR frequency, something to defeat all pressure change caused by the object, something to defeat all particle leakage from the object -- the latter might override the need for something to defeat EMR, depending on your GM.

Something to defeat astral would help : )

Planning can take a long time. Execution of that plan is what needs to be kept short.

Ruthenium polymers (poor manes invisibility) are half as effective against vehicle sensors.

Ultrasound emitter detectors (poor manes stealth) makes opposed roles to spoof the ultrasound components.

The spells have spell resistance tests to get past them witch automated sensors do not get to make.

As far as I know the only remaining sense witch the system can use is radar. Radar down is enough to get a lock but the system will fall down when it detects an intermittent radar contact (intermittent due to ECM and/or radar absorbent materials) and no visual or sonic confirmation.

I am not shore how this is represented mechanically. It should result in a increased target number or reduced dice on the sensor test. It is not a shore thing but it would be a great help.

Alternatively set the flight path to bypass aztch airspace with a seemingly inocuss bird and chance cause at the last minute.

Edward

Unfortunately, I don't have the mechanics to back this up (don't have any books handy) but my best arguement against the 'the plan to nail Aztech' is the fact that no one has done it already. Seriously, if it were possible don't you think someone allied with the Yuctan Rebels, or Amazonia, who have more resources, contacts, allies, and certainly a much bigger hate on for Aztech than your character would have already done it? Even if you manage to get the T-Bird of doom airborne with all it's magical and electronic stealth goodies, it's not just the Pyramid sensors you have to defeat (and the waste of resources this end run involves...). You have to get to the target first, which means the T-BoD is going to be screaming through a lot of other people's air space (make sure you don't cross over the Renraku Arcology). You're going to have a lot of sensor systems pinging you, and once some network finally pulls off a couple of successes, getting on the radio and shouting "It's okay! I'm going to fly this into the Pyramid! Don't shoot!" is not going to save your tail. Doing this multiple times? I can't imagine a PC having the resources to do this once.

If a player was dead set on doing this, I'd allow it, but the only way it would work would be either a miracle of dice, or the GM clearing the way.

Ditto for the Matrix attack. If a single impassioned character could organize the resources to take down a mega, even in a guranteed suicide run, then a group who hates the Corp even more, who has a lot more people and resources, would have already done it.

*edit: forgot my close*
Like I said, if a player really wanted to do this, I'd allow it, but I certainly wouldn't pull that many punches on the player's behalf. They're the one stepping into the Force 40 drekstorm with nothing more than an umbrella to save them.

Also, wouldn't Ruthenium be absolutley useless at that speed? I thought that if a character wearing a 'Predator' style sneak suit moved faster than .X meters a round, the processors couldn't keep up, so how would it work for a T-bird doing mach etc?

*edit again: forgot about the Omega Order*
Why would the CC issue one against Aztech again? Given the severity the Omega entails, the CC is not going to issue one on mere suspicion. Are people going to believe that Aztechnology has suddenly decided to try and fight the rest of the world, and start lining up Thor shots? There's going to be a burning path in the Matrix leading to evidence that this whole thing is an attack _against_ Aztech, not by it.

For the Corporate Court to issue an Omega Order against a founding member, Aztech would have to be caught doing something so irredeemably heinous, the other members would be willing to circumvent their own rules in order to eliminate the threat.

And given Corporate morality, I shudder to think what kind of action might cause that level of reaction.

-Siege

Edit: For typo

I think if you were to try to take down an arcology, an attack from the outside is almost guaranteed to fail. They've planned for that. You'll have to be original, and if possible, work from the inside (where the armor isn't). If you could smuggle in a nuclear weapon, piece by piece, and set it up somewhere, that could do some damage. You'd have problems getting all the pieces in, but at least that's managable. I don't know if the weapons show up as anything special on the astral, if the arcology would have geiger counters set up anywhere, if 'detect weapons' would pick up bits and pieces of a nuke going in one bit at a time, or if 'detect enemies' would pick up the person transporting it. But that sounds like it would do some damage.

Even better, IMO, would be if you could setup a biological weapon. It would have to have a long incubation period and survive some time on surfaces. They'll have air purifiers, so you can't expect a quick infection rate, and I'm sure everything in the arcology is cleaned regularly. If you made something resistant to lysol, that would help immensely. Then, after months and months the incubation period is up (or if you want to go the nanomachine route, some triggering event occurs) and people start dropping. You'd have some of the same problems as before, skyrocketing collateral damage, and if it's a disease, it's likely people would figure out the cure (or start casting cure disease) before the majority of infected people died.