I think the un/professionalism of looting depends on one thing: will it affect the job, and how much? If you're letting your greed slow you down by rifling through every guard's pockets and overloading yourself with guns, you're a greedy little amateur. On the other hand, if you don't pick up a box of valuable chips, a cyberdeck, or a rare weapon when you get the chance you're a moron. Neither type will last long.
Loot what is easy and lucrative, but leave the crap. If you find yourself in a position where time is not a factor, and no one might discover you, and transportation is trivial, then you'd better be looking through their pockets for loose change, but sometimes taking half a second to bend over and scoop up an assault rifle is half a second more than you can spare.

I'm not adverse to scooping up assault rifles, depending on the quality of the rifle and what I plan to do with it.

Stockpiling AK-97s? No.

Ares Alphas? Hey, gimme a hand. Of course, realistically, it depends on the mission parameters and how practical is it to spend time hauling an armful of rifles around when your exit strategy involves scaling a fence, making the tree line and hiking for two miles to the extraction point.

However, the other major advantage to picking the enemy's rifle - you don't deplete your ammo supply and you're not as concerned when you hose down a hallway with suppressive fire.

And if you manage to scoop up a credstick, it'll be at least 24 hours before the ID becomes deactivated...

-Siege

If you had a chance to take something valuable and didn’t, what does that say about you? Not that you’re professional. Sometimes that you’re stupid, but if you’ve got a rep, not that either.

No.

It says you've got another agenda. One your Johnsons and Fixers don’t know.

And that is probably going to do more damage to your ability to get hired more than anything you could steal.

~J

A very expensive, very light item that can be easily fenced, okay. I can see someone swiping a Fairlight from a corporate lab, but generally, I doubt those things are just going to be left lying around. An assault rifle? You can buy an AK-47 for 50 bucks if you really want one, why the hell would you steal one that has the serial number tracing back to Joe Schmoe, security guard killed or wounded in a raid? I could see maybe taking a very new prototype gun, but even an Ares Alpha isn't THAT much better than a trusty M22. Do you really want to add another 6 pounds to your pack too?

For cyberware, you can't just crack the guy's skull open with an axe and yank out his smartlink -- I mean, jesus. Not only is that extremely ghoulish, but it's going waaaay overboard. You'll probably damage the smartlink, you'll kill the guy if he's not dead already, you'll make every one of his buddies want you dead, and you'll waste time with impromptu surgery for relatively little gain (secondhand cyber doesn't make that much on the black market).

Your Johnson isn't going to think because you didn't grab everything you could from the place that you've got some other agenda. What the hell? Why does he care? As long as you did the job he wanted done, did it properly, and didn't let it get traced back to him (and frankly, a target corp is probably going to be a lot more willing to write off one researcher than one researcher, five brutally dismembered guards, 20 million in stolen goods, and the public relations disaster that follows). Not to mention that robbing everything pretty much blows the "low profile" idea if that was part of the run. Why would they be upset if you didn't steal something they didn't care about?

Let's face it, Shadowrunners live on a slippery moral slope. They commit crimes for cash. Robbery, murder, there's always a runner available for any job. The question your character has to ask themself is, "What *won't* I do for money?". Kill? Kill innocents? Kill people who get in my way? I'd think most runners would have to establish their own moral code on looting, amoung other things. The mercenaries book, "Feilds of Fire" from the old edition has a great section on that.

As I said, it depends on the mission parameters.

Looting cyberware in a shoot-n-scoot is not a good idea.

An Ares Alpha is not much better, but it will sell pretty well to people who like the newest and best toys around. And most of the ones you're dealing with probably won't be overly concerned with serial numbers and similar legalities. Although most paranoid runners will make sure to remove all trace evidence before passing the weapon on.

And for the guys collecting rifles and other weaponry - I've yet to have a Sam who didn't have a Strength of 8 or so and the majority of his mission weight involved ammo.

So by the time he was leaving, his inventory would invariably be several pounds lighter.

-Siege

Provided, of course, the penetration and ensuing carnage ever made the press.

Bad PR will do more damage to a company then anything the runners could ever hope to do.

-Siege

One of my old GMs used to introduce the same two NPC's into every campaign, and we always ended up working out a deal with them. They were brothers, both Trolls, named Hack and Slash. They were organleggers and cyberware salvagers. After we made a mess we'd give them a call and let them know where, how much, and what the risk was, and they'd come in and clean up after us if things looked right. We'd get a small cut, natch. We never bought much from them, but they were good people to be on good terms with, in any case.

Saragossa, it sounds like you're just arguing how much is too much. No one would ignore the fairlight excalibur. Heck, some people might even forget the run if they had to (I'm guessing you wouldn't, but if it's a $5k run vs. $500k deck question, well... ) But grabbing stuff like that isn't the same as stealing bone lacing out of bodies or stripping them naked so you can sell the clothes for $50 when you get out.

SOME looting is expected, if there's stuff there to be looted. I doubt a J cares if you grabbed a rifle on your way out or not either, that's just a question of what it's worth to you. The only question in my mind is how professional is stealing ware (I can just imagine someone running around with a spoon so he can easily grab cyber-eyes, and I've heard enough stories about people snatching entire bodies).

I have to admit though, I would be amused if a runner stopped long enough to try and steal bone lacing...

A spoon...to collect cybereyes?

Oh. My. God.

That's so inspired it's disturbing. And just a little icky.

-Siege

I think looting is the smart thing to do, as long as you don't play your runner like a 1st level D&D character, heading back to town loaded with the armor and weapons of fallen foes.

Our group so far has stuck to stealing only big-ticket items - ATGMs and launchers, APDS rounds, sport/luxury cars (getting rid of evidence and making money at the same time), cyberdecks, and one Mr. Johnson. (but we ended up having to give him back)

Although, if you were running an amoral campaign, snatching bodies to sell to Tanamous as part of the run could be interesting...

Of course, I tend to feel that most weapons that corp security guards, as well as any decks and the like, carry have trackers in them. I mean, asset control is important. Which makes grabbing mass quantities a bad idea. Grabbing the occasional important weapons or deck, that is worth enough to make up for the trouble, that is something else.

Really, trackers in weaponry just seems unlikely.

In a million-nuyen deck, however, I'd be surprised if they only stopped at one.

-Siege

My rigger (yet to be played) has 1 drone with 2 arms and a radio shielded bin in his vehicle specifically to store incidental stuff. Take ½ a second to send the drone “collect and store XXX”. This is primarily enemy drones that have been disabled but could include a heavily cybered individual.

The people that go to the effort for a couple of K worry me. If you go up against a street sam with 600K in cyber you take the body, intact if possible. Minor stuff is not worth the effort surgery is almost never worth the time. If it isn’t worth delivering the body entire to the cyber scavengers it probably isn’t worth doing at all. Some heads may contain enuff that you could just take the head but how would you know.

If your set up for it raiding corporate security assets is a way to make money. You could get to the point where you do a second line in allowing people to pay you to go to a specific place (or even just not there’s).

If your doing a data seal with 4 chumers for 20k each and it comes down to the pay data or the security deckers Fairlight I am having trouble justifying not taking the Fairlight.

And of cause you need to consider “would my character do this” for all such actions. Carting of bleeding bodies is not the act of somebody that hasn’t seen a lot of death and been affected by it in a major way.

What do you think of the spell detect funds. It will highlight for you any form of currency. Credstic cash, bearer bonds.

Edward

Problem with "Detect Funds" is that funds are different things to different people.

On top of that, what happens when you chant and say it really fast? "DETECT FUNS!"

That all makes sense. Know what about this. In our last session, our rigger died while rigged into a vehicle (he was shot point blank, couldn't dodge, failed his body completely). It really didn't matter to the other players, self included, since he was an NPC but then, to get away, our troll ripped his mangled corpse out of the driver's seat and, after the run, the mage "Mana Bolted" him in an effort to remove everything but his cyberware (I'm not a magic user so I'm really not familiar with how that all works with organic v.s. non-organic). In any event, my comrades did so in an effort to make some nuyen off of him and to destroy any evidence linking back to a possible connection on our run. Our GM, who's relatively new to the game, is only going to supply us with about 15-20% of the used cyberware's costs if we fence it correctly but, more specifically, my question, since this is the first time it's happened to me, is how our fixer would treat the situation? (Sorry, probably should have made this a separate thread but it's on the subject of looting- specifically from your own fallen teammates).

It's unfortunate, but it happens. For instance, we recently sold the body of a teammate to organleggers to destroy the evidence linking him to us and to a crime scene. We then toasted him with the money.

Keep in mind that you can get cash for the body parts themselves, too. We used the fencing rules and the rules for costs for cloned body parts as a guide.

~J

all interesting but none of it answers the question... why run for a johnson when setting up your own run will garner more cash...

No reason. That's why we run for a J.

Alternately, because the J already has the run set up. Cutting out the legwork of finding where the valuable info/researcher/prototype/head is and who wants it could easily be worth fifty-sixty thousand or more, provided the final total is still respectable.

~J

Of course, that rigger NPC might have friends with questions.

Professional thieves could easily form crime rings of their own, using deckers to crack warehouse inventories and throwing runners at the warehouses to liberate the merchandise.

With an organized crew, you could probably make a good living.

And if your group uses the "once a month run" theory put forth in the SRC, your characters will probably have to supplement their income somehow.

-Siege

See, I would think the problem with that would be that in forming your own crime-ring you would be opening yourself to way too much attention. I mean, being a faceless criminal for hire is one thing, but I think an independent entity might cause problems. Lonestar might feel like they could do something against you, or some of the larger criminal syndicates could try and take you over...

In my games, annonynity is always a plus, as there are always MUCH bigger fish who's attention you don't want.

Is that more or less dangerous than being a shadowrunner?

No matter who you hit, you run the risk of drawing the ire of offended parties if you don't know enough to disappear.

And this is assuming you don't end up being liquidated by your own employer as a good business practice.

-Siege

The risk on a self-funded run is significantly lower.

First you can trust the Johnson implicitly. Only true when your working for yourself.

Is something is important enough to be worth hiring shadow runners to do it probably is more important that the stuff you steal to make living. You are less lily to earn the ire of the corp you attack (unless you pick on one)

Organised crime wont be a problem. They get there cut when you fence your hall (who else would be able to move it) just don’t hit targets owned by the orgonisation you use as a fence.

Edward

You can, but you can't trust that if you're not out to backstab yourself your info will probably be good.

~J

Skip the yoga lessons and your back will be fine.

And it depends on what target you plan on hitting - info on a corp zero zone is critical. Info on a local warehouse is nice, but not an absolute necessity.

-Siege

Of course, there is the intangible path to consider. Admittedly, there is not much moral difference between doing a datasteal for a J and doing one for yourself, but to the way other people view you (and possibly the way you view yourself) there is a big difference. In the first case, you are a Shadowrunner. In the second instance you are just a common thief.

When you get right down to it, the difference is the same as the difference between a prostitute and a kept woman/mistress. They both sleep with men for money. But people look on them differently and usually they look upon themselves differently.

One thing I did sometimes when I GMd was have Johnsons pay for "reasonable costs" - ie, a mage might have to summon a couple of good elementals for the job. The J was expected to foot the bill. We always had lots of negotiation over what was "reasonable costs" but it made sure that the pcs ended up with most of their promised payment as profit since maintenance costs were already taken care of.

Seems to me that if you're working for yourself, you'll generally come out with a cleaner rep. Granted, killing for fun and profit isn't going to look so good, but if you're stealing from the man and your only J is in the mirror, you're far more of a robin hood than your joe shadowrunner who works for the man even when he's breaking into the man's corp lab and swiping stuff.

Generally I like to keep the runner's paradox. You have total freedom, and you stick it to big, faceless corps regularly. However, you only exist because by doing your work, you serve the corporate purpose. I enforce this by generally making you less effective the more 'pure' you are. Just like a pacifist has to work harder to complete runs without sacrificing his morals, a freelance runner gets paid less and works harder in order to really keep his freedom. The more you're willing to kill and sell out, the more effective you'll be, but you quickly cross a line and lose your soul.

Running for yourself is not done as much for a certain reason: Plausible deniability. Remeber that? It's the whole reason Corps and governments use runners in the first place. Between your employer and you fall a two layer filter, The Johnson, and the Fixer. Eliminating either one, or heck, even both dramtically increases the chances that someone could connect the dots. Sometimes, your employer won't mind that, if they've established a "close working relationship" with you. It does mean that you'll have fewer of the employers looking for a "garuntee (though there are none)" of deinability

Actually, unless you brag about who you are and what you do, odds are a crew of professional thieves could do quite well without any rep to speak of.

Which has its ups and downs, but so does everything else.

-Siege

Not if you want any significant intel about the site before you start intruding yourself.

~J

If someone grabs a typical shadowrunner and interogates/tortures/mind probes him, they shadowrunner is eventually going to sing like a canary. If the shadowrunner is kept from his emplyoer by a double blind system of Johnson/Fixer, the Shadowrunner has no beans to spill. Tidy huh?

Very. Which is the entire reason it exists.

~J

Right-o. A Self-employed shadowrunner who is tortured/interogated/mind proded is more likely to know compromizing information regarding his employer. Thus did the corps provide themselves with a final garuntee of confidentiality:

The Cranial Bomb

I think you misunderstand, Espiritu. I believe he was referring to the fact that if you attempt to gather intel about a site of interest, word will get out that you are attempting to gather intel about that site. Its really hard to avoid developing a rep, and harder still when you dont even have the option of relying on the info given to you by Mr. J.

Edit: Or I suppose I could just let people speak for themselves...

Of course, this all depends on why you are in the shadows. Are you there just to make money? Then why did you spend a million nuyen on gear and cyber? If you are awakened, and just wanted to get out of the Barrens, why didn't you walk into Renraku one day ten years ago and apply for a job? Corps are screaming for awakened individuals, and having no SIN is not a problem...they'll get you one, heck, they might even send you to school to learn more of that magic stuff.

If your team is just in it for the nuyen, and your campaign lasts for more than two or three adventures then, frankly, the characters (not the players) are probably just stupid, because they have the skills and equipment to pull off a couple big scores and retire, set for life.

Heck, I've always wondered why any decent decker who just wanted money even bothered to run the shadows. He should be able to acquire all the money he wants from matric crimes. I mean, a guy with level 6 skills and a top quality deck should be able to scam off ten million nuyen in a few weeks work almost completely untraceably.

Of course, then there is the fact that a self-directed shadowrunning team would be a LOT harder to GM

Well, the bit about awakened people having it easier is only mostly true. A mage is going to have an easier time of it then a shaman. Ask yourself this, "Would I want to work in the same office with a Spider shaman, and a Shark shaman?"