Full Version: Is it just me or are Adepts still the weakest link
| QUOTE (Cynic project) |
| I am unhappy with the fact that adepts have to pay karma ,and noticabley large amounts of it for things that other people can get form small amounts of money. Or at the worst they can spend fixed amounts of karma to get the same things. |
Ok, first you have to look at character progression as a whole. Magical and Cybered characters spend nuyen and karma differently. Saying Adepts spending alot of karma on easy things to aquire is like saying I like apples because Eyeless Blonde wears a talisman for underwear. It doen't make any sense. Ok adept spends karma for powers. Aquiring similar powers isn't gonna cost JoeNinja, 20 nuyen. And if it does there is a reason why it costs 20 nuyen. Cause it sucks or its expendible(like easy to take away). If that is the case JoeAdept should be smart enough to go "Hey look at those googles...they're kinda like that adept power, good thing I didn't waste power points for it....how much does that cost?"
I can kinda see your argument because I did the same thing in D&D. "Why take improved unarmed strike, when I can buy a pair of spiked gauntlets that do that feat and more." But in SR3 it all comes down to be smart (or dumb) amount spending you karma and nuyen.
After character creation is what you should be looking at. Everybody aquires karma at a similar rate unless you didn't participate or preform acts that give you Bad Karma. Everybody should be getting the same amount of nuyen. Reason: Well you are a team right? And if you ain't, you are some backstabbers that shouldn't be in the group. GMs shouldn't let their PCs go lone wolf and wreck in an extra 20k. What is the Magical character gonna be spending his nuyen on...why magic bladha (foci of different varieties). What is the Cyberguy gonna spend nuyen on...why toys of mass destruction of course. How about karma? Well are magic people are gonna initiate a couple times so that we are closer to becoming a god. And the cyberguys? We are buying skills that barely keep on the same level as the magic guys, but we have the guns (decks, drones,ect) to make up for it and do our job better.
MORTAL COMBAT!!@!!@ :loud annoying techno music:
Archetype vs Archetype. We should do this as a whole. I really don't have time between finals to finish, but in my prospective it goes something like this.
MAGE vs SUPERNINJA fight:
Ninja goes first and whacks the MAGE, D34D or Ninja doesn't get thur mage's barrier....eat a force 8D manabolt, D34D.
ADEPT vs WEAPON'S GUY:
ADEPT goes and kicks WEAPON'S GUY in the dome, D34D or WEAPON'S GUY breaks out the GE Vindicator Minigun and geeks the ADEPT, D34D.
The deckers, otaku, riggers, and other non-combat character give a hand in the battle like in Marvel vs Capcom 2... or maybe just the first one.
Mix-and-match names and what they do,and you there is the game for those people who don't care about nothing but combat. Actually roleplaying the scenes instead of ruleplaying is a totally different arguement that should start it's on topic.
The mythical game balance is there. No one really gets the shaft unless the guy running the game does so.
Well, I have this chalanage. Make an adept that is tthe king in hand to hand,and I will make a street sam. We will see who is better in hand to hand. Use 123 points,and make a human.
Why limit it to human? Or even limit it to BP?
Because when you throw in Trolls, and orks the numbers get wonky. As if you look into into way of reducing damage become less effective the higher the power of the attack . Note it is far less likely for trolls in a boxing match to stage down damage than it is for humans.
Also when you strip it down to just humans, and just one way of making a character you strip down the variables that the test has. You do not have to be left with, is the fact he is an ork,and not that he is a adapt.
Also when you strip it down to just humans, and just one way of making a character you strip down the variables that the test has. You do not have to be left with, is the fact he is an ork,and not that he is a adapt.
Exactly, you are obviously skewing the odds for the sam then. BP favours the mundane more than Awakened. With Trolls and Orks, the power of the melee Adept vs the mundane Sam becomes more obvious. In this case, the synergy acts in favour of the adept metatypes especially if you are talking about a specialised character. Why not limit it to just Trolls? Or Orks?
You want to use the priotity system, go for it.In this case the build point system would be helping the adept more. You want to let trolls and orks in, in this case it highly help the sam more. But go on and show me your best.
I mean I can make an elf that will knock a troll onto the ground in one hit,before the troll could even act.
I mean I can make an elf that will knock a troll onto the ground in one hit,before the troll could even act.
I gotta be honest, if we're going to compare adepts vs sammies in this exercise, then let's compare adepts versus sammies. Remove all other influences. No metavariants, no shapeshifters, no metahumans at all. Allowing metahumans adds that variably and it's no longer comparing the usefulness of the adept itself, but rather the race also.
I say make it all human, all exact equal character build availability. Humans after all are the baseline and the majority of the population.
I say make it all human, all exact equal character build availability. Humans after all are the baseline and the majority of the population.
Will cultured bioware be available if its availability is under 8?
i think adepts have the real edge in unarmed combat, mainly because they can have powers that let them see astral and hurt spirits. they can make unarmed strikes at a distance for deadly damage. and they can be as fast as wired reflexes.
The thing is, they can take geas to get powers cheaper (Mits p.33), which makes a lot of sense for the high-cost things like reflexes. there are downsides, but most of them are not that bad overall.
so 3.75 for improved reflexes 3 (talisman), 1.5 for killing hand S (talisman), and .75 of something else (like str +3).
with A atributes and C skills, unarmed(karate) 5(7), b 6 q 6 s 9 c 3 I 6 w 3 r 6(12)+1d6(4d6)
he would go on at least a 16 init, averaging 26, and do 9S in unarmed combat.
for armor, forearm gaurds (+1 impact in melee), winterized coverall(4/4), hard hat (+1 impact), and FFBA. $3275 for 6/6 armor with no penalites. then add a shock glove.
now, here we have a very fast, decently armored adept. about on par with a sam who can afford wired 3 and muscle augmentation 3. slightly limited by the talisman, but not too much so. and hes doing 9S + 8S stun per hit, with 7 dice.
hes not a weak link, hes very fast, and deadly in melee. once he initiates, he can get even more dice in combat.
The thing is, they can take geas to get powers cheaper (Mits p.33), which makes a lot of sense for the high-cost things like reflexes. there are downsides, but most of them are not that bad overall.
so 3.75 for improved reflexes 3 (talisman), 1.5 for killing hand S (talisman), and .75 of something else (like str +3).
with A atributes and C skills, unarmed(karate) 5(7), b 6 q 6 s 9 c 3 I 6 w 3 r 6(12)+1d6(4d6)
he would go on at least a 16 init, averaging 26, and do 9S in unarmed combat.
for armor, forearm gaurds (+1 impact in melee), winterized coverall(4/4), hard hat (+1 impact), and FFBA. $3275 for 6/6 armor with no penalites. then add a shock glove.
now, here we have a very fast, decently armored adept. about on par with a sam who can afford wired 3 and muscle augmentation 3. slightly limited by the talisman, but not too much so. and hes doing 9S + 8S stun per hit, with 7 dice.
hes not a weak link, hes very fast, and deadly in melee. once he initiates, he can get even more dice in combat.
| QUOTE (Teulisch) |
| i think adepts have the real edge in unarmed combat, mainly because they can have powers that let them see astral and hurt spirits. they can make unarmed strikes at a distance for deadly damage. and they can be as fast as wired reflexes. The thing is, they can take geas to get powers cheaper (Mits p.33), which makes a lot of sense for the high-cost things like reflexes. there are downsides, but most of them are not that bad overall. so 3.75 for improved reflexes 3 (talisman), 1.5 for killing hand S (talisman), and .75 of something else (like str +3). with A atributes and C skills, unarmed(karate) 5(7), b 6 q 6 s 9 c 3 I 6 w 3 r 6(12)+1d6(4d6) he would go on at least a 16 init, averaging 26, and do 9S in unarmed combat. for armor, forearm gaurds (+1 impact in melee), winterized coverall(4/4), hard hat (+1 impact), and FFBA. $3275 for 6/6 armor with no penalites. then add a shock glove. now, here we have a very fast, decently armored adept. about on par with a sam who can afford wired 3 and muscle augmentation 3. slightly limited by the talisman, but not too much so. and hes doing 9S + 8S stun per hit, with 7 dice. hes not a weak link, hes verfy fast, and deadly in melee. once he initiates, he can get even more dice in combat. |
Sure. But he looks like a dork.
Edit: Or a "Village People" refugee <Macho, Macho-Man...I want to be a Macho-Man...>
I agree. I don't care how good the stats work out. If you look like an idiot, it's not worth being effective 
You should care. If all you look at are the numbers you look like a munchkin.
What?
I would rather have a character who is marginally less effective than a character who is maxed out and looks like an idiot.
I would rather have a character who is marginally less effective than a character who is maxed out and looks like an idiot.
I think I may have missinterpreted your smiley.
Edit: or your sarcasm is too subtle for me.
Either way, if you want to look at it from an IC POV, the Winterized Ceveralls and a Hardhat may be a good combo but if it also doubles as your street wear or--except under certain, obvious circumstances--your run wear, you not only look like a dork but you'd be acting like one too.
If that's your thing, just bring back the SR1 Rocker.
Edit: or your sarcasm is too subtle for me.
Either way, if you want to look at it from an IC POV, the Winterized Ceveralls and a Hardhat may be a good combo but if it also doubles as your street wear or--except under certain, obvious circumstances--your run wear, you not only look like a dork but you'd be acting like one too.
If that's your thing, just bring back the SR1 Rocker.
why should he look like an adept, or even a shadowrunner? he can get that much closer to his target if he looks like a regular guy. the coveralls are a type of camoflague, in that they let him meld into the crowd (at least until someone does astral perception. he needs to initiate and get masking). besides, a respirator dosent look out of place with coveralls, along with your electronics tool kit. maybe a nail gun.
also, the above gear could get past a security checkpoint (no cyber or chemicals or weapons, just some tools).
also, the above gear could get past a security checkpoint (no cyber or chemicals or weapons, just some tools).
Unnamed Troll Ganger Adept
STATS
B 11 (13)
Q 4
S 8 (11)
C 2
I 3
W 4
R 5+2d6 (9)
M 5 (6 Geas)
EDGES/FLAWS
Flaw: Distinctive (Never wears shoes)
SKILLS
Kung Fu 6 (Kick Attack, Multi-Strike, Whirling) [+2 Imp Ab]
Stealth 6 [+2 Imp Ab]
Athletics 5
Etiquette 3
CYBER
Plastic Bone Lacing
GEAR
Hardliner Gloves
Sleeping Tiger (2/4)
Forearm Guards (+0/+1)
ADEPT POWERS
Sixth Sense 4
Improved Reactions 1
Improved Stealth 3
Improved Kung Fu 2
Select Sound Filter 5
Rooting 4 (Geas: Must be barefoot)
Rea of 9 for surpise tests, so it's difficult (though not impossible) to surprise him. SSF 5 means +5 dice to perception tests; hard to sneak up on him. 13 total dice for DR, and 5 points of armor; hard to hurt him. 8 dice for asskicking, and 11M stun or 5M physical damage. the rooting is just to be a jerk: you really can't knock him down.
STATS
B 11 (13)
Q 4
S 8 (11)
C 2
I 3
W 4
R 5+2d6 (9)
M 5 (6 Geas)
EDGES/FLAWS
Flaw: Distinctive (Never wears shoes)
SKILLS
Kung Fu 6 (Kick Attack, Multi-Strike, Whirling) [+2 Imp Ab]
Stealth 6 [+2 Imp Ab]
Athletics 5
Etiquette 3
CYBER
Plastic Bone Lacing
GEAR
Hardliner Gloves
Sleeping Tiger (2/4)
Forearm Guards (+0/+1)
ADEPT POWERS
Sixth Sense 4
Improved Reactions 1
Improved Stealth 3
Improved Kung Fu 2
Select Sound Filter 5
Rooting 4 (Geas: Must be barefoot)
[ Spoiler ]
Rea of 9 for surpise tests, so it's difficult (though not impossible) to surprise him. SSF 5 means +5 dice to perception tests; hard to sneak up on him. 13 total dice for DR, and 5 points of armor; hard to hurt him. 8 dice for asskicking, and 11M stun or 5M physical damage. the rooting is just to be a jerk: you really can't knock him down.
I would say that is very situation-specific. More often than not, you're going to stick out like a sore thumb when a more suble disguise would've worked much better.
Yep. Thats what I was thinking.
Hardliner Gloves stack w/ Bone Lacing?
i don't see why they wouldn't.
Why wouldn't they?
I dunno. Game balance? I wasn't knocking it, I just didn't know.
This is the same game that doesn't allow underbarrel accessories for pistols...[edit] or stacking more than two types of armor[/edit]
I guess, in my mind, its like taking a lead pipe and wraping it in plasic for a better damage code.
This is the same game that doesn't allow underbarrel accessories for pistols...[edit] or stacking more than two types of armor[/edit]
I guess, in my mind, its like taking a lead pipe and wraping it in plasic for a better damage code.
A melee sammie versus a melee adept would seem to favor the adept, with the adept's power of Increased Ability - I mean, an effective skill of 12 usually beats a skill of 6, right? But a sammie usually soaks better and hits harder. A lot of times, they can lose several exchanges, waiting for that lucky strike. Sammies, even specialized for melee, are strong generalists - they combine improved Attributes, harder hitting power, natural armor, improved reaction and initiative, pain resistance, and even skill bonuses.
| QUOTE (Teulisch) |
| so 3.75 for improved reflexes 3 (talisman), 1.5 for killing hand S (talisman), and .75 of something else (like str +3). |
Can't take two of the same Geas. P. 32 first paragraph.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| Rooting 4 (Geas: Must be barefoot) |
This isn't a good Geas, both because it's not much of a limitation, and it aleady duplicates a previous limitation. Again, p. 32, first and second paragraphs.
Guess we're already seeing people's inner munchkin come out.
I'm pretty sure it says "The same geas may apply to multiple powers." in there too.
rules for adept geasa are different because they affect a specific power, and not all powers like a mage geasa would. p. 33 "...if a singe geasa was applied to several powers, breaking the geasa keeps the adept from using all those powers."
though your right about the barefoot troll, he cant get a flaw for a geasa.
though your right about the barefoot troll, he cant get a flaw for a geasa.
1)Why can't you have two different talismans?
2)Caltdrops. Broken Glass. Urban setting. Sounds like a good Flaw to me.
2)Caltdrops. Broken Glass. Urban setting. Sounds like a good Flaw to me.
eh, the flaw/geasa are replacable. the character is still basically viable; just throw in whatever combination of geas and distinctive style suits you.
Ah, you're right. A voluntary geas can be applied to multiple powers, so I suppose the first example works. I still think talisman geasea are stupid though, and I would very stubbornly refuse to allow anyone to spread a voluntary (for cost) geas over more than one point's worth of powers, if putting multiple powers under one geas.
| QUOTE (mfb @ Dec 14 2004, 01:46 AM) |
| eh, the flaw/geasa are replacable. the character is still basically viable; just throw in whatever combination of geas and distinctive style suits you. |
I was more referring to the rule that a geas "should not duplicate a limitation the character already possesses." Taking something as both a Flaw and a Geas is no good, even as a common sense reason because you're basically double-charging the Flaw: it's something he *has* to do anyway, so taking it as a Geas isn't limiting him at all.
And honestly you'd be surprised how durable your feet get after walking around with no shoes for a month or two. The only one of those hinderances you mentioned that would even slow down a guy who *never* wears shoes are the caltrops, and with those none but the most reinforced shoes will do you any good either.
(Edit): As for "1)Why can't you have two different talismans?" the only thing I can really say is that Talisman is a weakest, most painless Geas on the list, and there's no way I'd let a character take it more than once, if that.
Here's the adept version of mine. I created this one after I did a cybered version, and I realized the only way for him to have even a slight chance was to be able to throw as many dice as possible.
Against most opponents, his damage code and Body/level of impact armor would be ample. Against a properly twinked melee sammie, though, the sammie will usually be rolling lots of Body dice against TN: 2 to soak and throwing attacks that will still be 6+ power after subtracting 6 points of impact armor. His only hope is to bury the sammie with heavy dice-slinging - but a sammie can sling about 13 dice with a similar build and the right bioware, so even min-maxed to heck, this guy doesn't quite have an even chance.
He would be closer to the melee sammie if I made him a troll, though, since a troll's Body and Strength bonuses are enough that, even though the sammie still has more, the adept can start to do the same type of damage-soaking and high-power (negating high impact armor values) attacking.
[ Spoiler ]
Against most opponents, his damage code and Body/level of impact armor would be ample. Against a properly twinked melee sammie, though, the sammie will usually be rolling lots of Body dice against TN: 2 to soak and throwing attacks that will still be 6+ power after subtracting 6 points of impact armor. His only hope is to bury the sammie with heavy dice-slinging - but a sammie can sling about 13 dice with a similar build and the right bioware, so even min-maxed to heck, this guy doesn't quite have an even chance.
He would be closer to the melee sammie if I made him a troll, though, since a troll's Body and Strength bonuses are enough that, even though the sammie still has more, the adept can start to do the same type of damage-soaking and high-power (negating high impact armor values) attacking.
No offense Glyph, but I always hate seeing adepts with power structures like that. I mean, be realistic: you only need to throw 7 or 8 dice from skill to outmaneuver 99% of the world's hand to hand fighters. New adepts shouldn't throw 6 power points into one trick, they should spread out a little. You'll have a comfortable one or two point skill advantage in stealth, unarmed combat and the weapon of your choice plus some neat adept only abilities (pain resistance anyone? attribute boost?) and decent reflexes. All without loading up on Geasa.
Save the 12 die uberpool for when you initiate and have the points to spare. It's no wonder people think adepts a weak overall compared to Sammies. If this is the kind of adept people build then yeah, give me a street sam any day.
Save the 12 die uberpool for when you initiate and have the points to spare. It's no wonder people think adepts a weak overall compared to Sammies. If this is the kind of adept people build then yeah, give me a street sam any day.
Human (0)
Adept (25)
ATTRIBUTES (60)
B:6 +5
Q:6
S:7 +4
I:3 -2
C:3 -2
W:6
Skills(12)
Muay Thai 6 (Kick Attack, Herding, Zoning)
Adept powers
Improved Ability 6 Muay Thai
Killing Hands S
Attribute Boost Strength 4
Edge/Flaws + SURGE (Total: 5 + 0)
Increased Attribute Str (2)
Chronic Osteocupus (-10)
Goblinisation (10)
Dermal Deposits (2)
Satyr Legs (6)
Police Record (-6)
Zone(Full Defense) + absorb damage (Troll dermal + dermal deposits + 3 level Pain Resistance), then unleash a 18S Kick Attack with 14 dice.
Adept (25)
ATTRIBUTES (60)
B:6 +5
Q:6
S:7 +4
I:3 -2
C:3 -2
W:6
Skills(12)
Muay Thai 6 (Kick Attack, Herding, Zoning)
Adept powers
Improved Ability 6 Muay Thai
Killing Hands S
Attribute Boost Strength 4
Edge/Flaws + SURGE (Total: 5 + 0)
Increased Attribute Str (2)
Chronic Osteocupus (-10)
Goblinisation (10)
Dermal Deposits (2)
Satyr Legs (6)
Police Record (-6)
Zone(Full Defense) + absorb damage (Troll dermal + dermal deposits + 3 level Pain Resistance), then unleash a 18S Kick Attack with 14 dice.
Here is a real killer. 22 dice for melee (assuming max combat pool in and I've calculated correctly), 21 L. Yes, L. The 21 is the part that is more important, the sam isn't going to soak it (if he has 9 points of armor, he's going to need a body around 72 to reliably stage it down one level). This guy is completely flavor bare and down to mere mechanics, so in some places I've put in a fill in the blank, basically. Here goes...
Human Adept (25)
200,000¥ (15)
28 Attribute Points (56)
27 Skills (27)
+8/-8 Edges and Flaws (0)
Total 123
Money first-
50k Suprathyroid (1.4 bio)
60k Muscle Augmentation (1.2 bio)
40k Enhanced Articulation (.6 bio)
40k Twin Alphaware Handblades (.4 essence)
10k remaining for armor, additional weapons, lifestyle, contacts, etc.
essence 5.6
bioindex 3.8
potential magic loss 2
Skills-
Cyber Implant Combat (Handblades) 5/7 [6]
Ninjutsu 4 (Close Combat, Close Combat: CIC) [8]
Projectile Weapons (Pull Bows) 3/5 [4]
Etiquette 2 [2]
Stealth 4 [4]
Biotech (First Aid) 2/4 [3]
Edges and Flaws-
Ambidex 6 [6]
Exceptional Attribute (Strength) [2]
Incompetant (Biotech) [-2]
Cursed Karma or Bad Karma [-6]
Hunted 2 or Dayjob 2 (ninja clan) [0]
Adept Powers-
Improved Ability (CIC) 4 [2.0]
Improved Strength 1 [0.5]
Pain Resistance 3 [1.5]
Combat Sense 2 [2.0]
geasa: 2 levels of pain resistance and 1 level of combat sense geased to something
Attributes
B 4 (3+Suprathyroid)
Q 6 (5+Suprathyroid)
S 11 (6+Suprathyroid+Muscle Augmentation 3+Improved Strength)
C 2
I 6
W 6
Reaction 8 (plus up to 5 dice from combat pool for reaction tests)
Combat Pool 11
The 11 strength works out because 6 base. 7 racial limit (exceptional attribute). 1 point of IA puts it to that. Then 4 points of bioware will put it to the racial max of 11.
If I figure this right (and there is a good chance I won't since I generally don't build melee characters and don't own CC), then he gets 7 dice for his handblade skill, 3 from his off-hand handblade, 1 from artwinkulation, 4 improved ability, 7 combat pool. Handblades are (Str+3)L, and he gets 1.5 times damage because of the off-hand handblade, so he has 14*1.5=21L base.
Human Adept (25)
200,000¥ (15)
28 Attribute Points (56)
27 Skills (27)
+8/-8 Edges and Flaws (0)
Total 123
Money first-
50k Suprathyroid (1.4 bio)
60k Muscle Augmentation (1.2 bio)
40k Enhanced Articulation (.6 bio)
40k Twin Alphaware Handblades (.4 essence)
10k remaining for armor, additional weapons, lifestyle, contacts, etc.
essence 5.6
bioindex 3.8
potential magic loss 2
Skills-
Cyber Implant Combat (Handblades) 5/7 [6]
Ninjutsu 4 (Close Combat, Close Combat: CIC) [8]
Projectile Weapons (Pull Bows) 3/5 [4]
Etiquette 2 [2]
Stealth 4 [4]
Biotech (First Aid) 2/4 [3]
Edges and Flaws-
Ambidex 6 [6]
Exceptional Attribute (Strength) [2]
Incompetant (Biotech) [-2]
Cursed Karma or Bad Karma [-6]
Hunted 2 or Dayjob 2 (ninja clan) [0]
Adept Powers-
Improved Ability (CIC) 4 [2.0]
Improved Strength 1 [0.5]
Pain Resistance 3 [1.5]
Combat Sense 2 [2.0]
geasa: 2 levels of pain resistance and 1 level of combat sense geased to something
Attributes
B 4 (3+Suprathyroid)
Q 6 (5+Suprathyroid)
S 11 (6+Suprathyroid+Muscle Augmentation 3+Improved Strength)
C 2
I 6
W 6
Reaction 8 (plus up to 5 dice from combat pool for reaction tests)
Combat Pool 11
The 11 strength works out because 6 base. 7 racial limit (exceptional attribute). 1 point of IA puts it to that. Then 4 points of bioware will put it to the racial max of 11.
If I figure this right (and there is a good chance I won't since I generally don't build melee characters and don't own CC), then he gets 7 dice for his handblade skill, 3 from his off-hand handblade, 1 from artwinkulation, 4 improved ability, 7 combat pool. Handblades are (Str+3)L, and he gets 1.5 times damage because of the off-hand handblade, so he has 14*1.5=21L base.
Holy Jesus. I thought the whole point of this thread was that adepts don't *have* to screw themselves over in all but one field, that they can be effective in several roles at once. We don't need to prove that they can specialize better than any sammie could possibly hope to overcome in said single field; that's already pretty damn obvious. This is particularly true in melee: I don't remember where it was calculated, but as I recall having just 7 melee dice to throw against someone with skill 6 on an attack increases your chances of winning a fight by something like 20-30% by virtue of the defender rolling is defense automagically, and a difference of 2 or 3 dice make the outcome all but certain. You don't need to roll twice as many dice as the sammy to beat him practically all the time in melee. You only need 2-3 more dice, really. The rest is just a waste.
So I vote for someone to post up a good solid sammie build, and for someone else to try to mirror that build with an adept of the same build points that can match the sammie in as man fields as possible. It'd certainly be a better proof of the claim than the guy who invested a grand total of 12 points in skills.
So I vote for someone to post up a good solid sammie build, and for someone else to try to mirror that build with an adept of the same build points that can match the sammie in as man fields as possible. It'd certainly be a better proof of the claim than the guy who invested a grand total of 12 points in skills.
The challenge was to build a specialist. I don't know why, but there it is.
Look how many of these adept builds have cyber/bioware. I find it immensely interesting that the adept is not perceived as sufficient within his normal capabilities but has to borrow from the samurai's area of influence.
Meh. I've already made this argument before, and it swayed nobody but:
If the adept needs 'ware to be as efficient as the samurai, the adept is broken.
(retires to bomb shelter and puts on flame-retardant underwear)
Meh. I've already made this argument before, and it swayed nobody but:
If the adept needs 'ware to be as efficient as the samurai, the adept is broken.
(retires to bomb shelter and puts on flame-retardant underwear)
I don't know, Doc, there's very few characters who don't benefit from having a point of Essence (or Bio) dropped into toys. If a phys ad is going to use any kind of a gun, its worth it for the smartlink alone (though bone lacing is also nice, and maybe a flare comp ret mod, if you alpha the smartlink).
If we were using SR2 Initiative, I'd say it would be worth it to go Inc Ref (3), but since they downplayed the importance in SR3, its not as big of a deal. If I were making a phys ad straight out of the book, I'd go Stats:A, Magic:B, Skills:C, Race: D (ork), Tech:E.
B: 9, Q: 5, S: 8, C: 1, I: 5, W: 5, E: 6, M: 6, R: 5 (9+3d6)
Inc Ref (2) 3
Flare Comp, Inc Hearing, Hearing Damp, Inc Smell
Inc Pistols Skill +2
Inc Unarmed +2
Skills:
Pistols: 5(7)
Unarmed: 6(8)
Stealth: 5
Athletics: 6
Fill out the rest with Electronics, Demolitions, a vehicle skill; pretty much whatever you want. If I ever lost a point of Magic, I'd put in Plastic Bonelacing and a smartlink (at least), and lose the Inc Pistols skill (or whatever firearm I'd chosen). This is pretty bare bones, and I'm not married to the particulars. Its a generalist, but I find those work better in SR. You don't want to empty out the options box in character creation.
If we were using SR2 Initiative, I'd say it would be worth it to go Inc Ref (3), but since they downplayed the importance in SR3, its not as big of a deal. If I were making a phys ad straight out of the book, I'd go Stats:A, Magic:B, Skills:C, Race: D (ork), Tech:E.
B: 9, Q: 5, S: 8, C: 1, I: 5, W: 5, E: 6, M: 6, R: 5 (9+3d6)
Inc Ref (2) 3
Flare Comp, Inc Hearing, Hearing Damp, Inc Smell
Inc Pistols Skill +2
Inc Unarmed +2
Skills:
Pistols: 5(7)
Unarmed: 6(8)
Stealth: 5
Athletics: 6
Fill out the rest with Electronics, Demolitions, a vehicle skill; pretty much whatever you want. If I ever lost a point of Magic, I'd put in Plastic Bonelacing and a smartlink (at least), and lose the Inc Pistols skill (or whatever firearm I'd chosen). This is pretty bare bones, and I'm not married to the particulars. Its a generalist, but I find those work better in SR. You don't want to empty out the options box in character creation.
| QUOTE (akarenti) |
Walking into a lower security club or buiseness with 1,000,000  in chrome will get a slightly different reaction than when an adept walks in. |
Long term goal for my muscle: get rid of the titanium bonelacing and dermal sheathing. Having 13 soak dice is cool at first but, dang, going into even dance clubs with a metal detector at the door is difficult.
| QUOTE (DrJest) |
| Look how many of these adept builds have cyber/bioware. I find it immensely interesting that the adept is not perceived as sufficient within his normal capabilities but has to borrow from the samurai's area of influence. Meh. I've already made this argument before, and it swayed nobody but: If the adept needs 'ware to be as efficient as the samurai, the adept is broken. (retires to bomb shelter and puts on flame-retardant underwear) |
I wouldn't call being completely 'wareless "within his normal capabilities" for the adept or say that 'ware is the samurai's "area of influence." The adept has geasa for a reason, and just about everyone in the shadows can benefit from a small number of well selected implants. Cyber- and bioware are extremely useful tools in the shadows, and I would argue that having some isn't the sam's area of expertise. The sam's area of expertise is having more 'ware than the next guy.
Besides, an adept can put in 'ware if they are prepared to live with the concequences. A sam can't put in 2 points of magic unless he gets possessed by someone (or something) else.
People yall are going about it all wrong. Building your character for solely for combat and try to prove something, is pointless. It's all conditional for the sole purpose of combat. The characters lack flavor. If I was a GM and saw PCs like this I'd see that all you want to do is fight. So I'd run you characters in Atzlan and throw a Horror and/or some horror constructs at yall. In a real game(actually roleplayed, not roll-played) of SR most of the opposition out of the books have like 3's, 4's and 5's with a little supplemental powers. Throwing 22 dice to attack is nice and all, but when you go to meet that Johnson for a meeting he is gonna say get away from me with that CHA 2. Then he is probally gonna scout you out, see you are a super killing machine, and tell ARES's magical control squad about this super power that's probally gonna get out of control in the near future or send multible squads to attempt to control a superbeing for Corporate puroposes.
If the weakest link was appling combatwise, yall prove that the adepts are a force to be reckoned with. If it applied that the 'depts were one shot combat monkeys, yall have just proven that point, too.
BTW those builds were awesome... I'm only saying this because I am a munchkin in D&D(2nd & 3rd). 2nd edition I could throw a rock from 1/2 mile away and kill a lvl 13 something and in 3rd edition I could throw an 36D6 Boulder+4 and kill you everytime.
If the weakest link was appling combatwise, yall prove that the adepts are a force to be reckoned with. If it applied that the 'depts were one shot combat monkeys, yall have just proven that point, too.
BTW those builds were awesome... I'm only saying this because I am a munchkin in D&D(2nd & 3rd). 2nd edition I could throw a rock from 1/2 mile away and kill a lvl 13 something and in 3rd edition I could throw an 36D6 Boulder+4 and kill you everytime.
I don't know why, but the challenge for some reason was to build an adept who can rock any sam at melee combat. I think we've shown that that can be done. I can't imagine how one can twink a sam to be able to deal with these combat monsters.
Xavroc, if a Johnson turned away everyone with a slightly below average charisma, then they'd be pretty hard up for runners. These adepts shouldn't be doing the talking, but CHA 2 isn't an outcast from society by any means.
Xavroc, if a Johnson turned away everyone with a slightly below average charisma, then they'd be pretty hard up for runners. These adepts shouldn't be doing the talking, but CHA 2 isn't an outcast from society by any means.
Ok, maybe I phrased it a bit wrong. He'll get jobs. But half the meeting is for the Johnson is just by talking to these assets they are gonna use, can they do it. Do that fall under that 90% of success? If the Johnson could size the character up, he could find out how much of a beef cake he is, but what I was trying to get at is that if corps start seeing a Super-power better then their special force units combined. I think they are gonna do something about it. CHA 2 isn't that bad but can lose you some pretty good paying jobs or make some enemies out of some J's by just putting out a just below acceptance aura.
The primary skill during the meet is Etiquette. And while it is a Cha-lnkied skill the number of successes from the test is not limited by Charisma and furthermore, with the way the game mechanics are in SR, TNs are often the more important controlling factor. Also low Charisma does not preclude high Etiquette.
Also I would think that the better Corps have as good or even more twinked Adepts in their Special Forces Units. Aztec have Jaguar and Leopard guards who are primarily Adepts and Ares have Firewatch teams, some of whom are recruited from the Sioux Wildcats.
Also I would think that the better Corps have as good or even more twinked Adepts in their Special Forces Units. Aztec have Jaguar and Leopard guards who are primarily Adepts and Ares have Firewatch teams, some of whom are recruited from the Sioux Wildcats.
| QUOTE |
| I wouldn't call being completely 'wareless "within his normal capabilities" for the adept or say that 'ware is the samurai's "area of influence." The adept has geasa for a reason, and just about everyone in the shadows can benefit from a small number of well selected implants. |
You see, this is where I differ from apparently the majority of SR players. To me, the whole point of the adept is that he does his mojo without cyberware. That is how I personally see the adept as intended, and to suggest that he should take some cyber at the price of his magic tells me that this concept is broken.
(slight rant) From an In Character viewpoint, physads should be the least likely to ever take cyberware, possible exception of some shamen. These are people whose magic is in the intimate connection of mana and their own bodies for Christ's sake! Magic ebbs and flows within evey cell of their being! Remember the old quote? "Mages wield magic - I am magic." The very idea of decreasing that connection and replacing bits of their living bodies with alien metal should be utterly ****ing repugnant to them! Screw min-maxing, screw munchkinism! Frell them repeatedly in the anus with broken glass! Just Say No to cyberware!
Sorry... lost it a bit there...
Still. Point made, I feel.
Toturi, Does this equation even factor in the johnson be a racist bigot. And If remember right, there is a CHA test even before the etiquette test(usally ignored by GMs around the world). Failed test doesn't mean the johnson will get up and leave, but have a negative attitude towards PCs before they prove themselves with the appropriate etiquette test.
Doc, if it fits the character, it fits the character. A PC can justify saying "A worldy man is best. So in order to become one like the world, I must be like the world itself. Tainted by technology and full of magic, I will become the best combat monkey I can be."
Doc, if it fits the character, it fits the character. A PC can justify saying "A worldy man is best. So in order to become one like the world, I must be like the world itself. Tainted by technology and full of magic, I will become the best combat monkey I can be."
This is precisely why the group has a happy little elf/night-one face to go talk to the J while Mr. Psychotic here stands in the corner watching the trid.
heh, toturi, you didn't pay for your troll race in your example char (or, at least, you've got him listed as being human).
at any rate, we still have yet to see a sam from Cynic Project that can spank these adepts. that is, i believe, why we made them, isn't it?
at any rate, we still have yet to see a sam from Cynic Project that can spank these adepts. that is, i believe, why we made them, isn't it?
mfb, you gotta give him a few more years with NASAs math computer to crunch the numbers out first.
mfb: Yes he did ... see the SURGE entry for Goblinization.
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