I think "bored audience" would perhaps just be fine on it's own.

So, to take the thread on a different tack: Three things I would have done to improve Underworld:

1. More variety in vampiric/werewolf powers, less gunplay.
2. More information on the second group of vampires, making them more than just victims.
3. Better definition of the setting: just what city were they in? How do the vampires and werewolves stay hidden? where are the other vampires from? etc, etc.

I agree with most of those. Play down the gun fight- maybe see a vamp's punch miss the target in the early fight seen and see it take out a piece of support column (Oh, they are stronger than mortals) and maybe a little more interaction with Kine (like the familiars in "Blade" that would answer most of the questions)

Generally speaking, we do see some vampiric powers --> jumping off a building and landing with a bounce (I really liked the strut). Leaping to the ceiling and clinging. Getting knocked out of a window and landing upright.

It seems though that the 'wolves are just as physically capable, if not more so since they seem to dominate every hand-to-hand encounter with the casual vamp. Granted, most of that was in "I'm gonna eat your face" mode, but still.

Which explains why vamps resorted to guns to deliver the silver. And why the vamps tried not to engage wolves that were in "I'm gonna eat your face" mode in hand-to-hand.

While the wolves were less able to kill vamps with guns, it would slow them down and impede their ability to shoot back with silver bullets, so we see a relatively logical progression in the firearm use. Although the special loads would have given the wolves more encouragement to learn accuracy and control.

We may see more powers if they do a sequel with a budget increase -- although vamps were carrying flashlights, suggesting they may lack improved sensory capabilities. I think they were trying to avoid re-hashing familiar ground with traditional powers, abilities and whatnot.

I didn't object to the lack of particulars about the vampire covens since the story was technically focusing on a love between two houses, but that was a fairly weak element in and of itself.

I just refused to count how many rounds those magazines must have held for as often as she cranked up the autofire.

And was it just me, or did "Viktor" have a really strong Southern drawl when they first thawed him out?

-Siege

Yeah, but most of the time, the wolves DON'T shift, they just grab their own guns and blaze away "Whoa guys, we can shift form into horrible killing machines and we just forgot- D'oh!"

even when she was on the computer just chatting, checking her pictures and checking her stocks, she was still in latex IIRC
the clips in her guns were magic! they held like what, eleventy-billion rounds?

Magazines, damnit.

Anyway, I think she was in a velvet top, although the pant/leggings were still leather/laytex.

-Siege

Dude.

I almost want to play Vampire now.

-Siege

Try VtM but you need a good GM to keep it going, in that worlkd vampires run and hide from werewolves.

Her outfits get any tighter and circulation would get cut off. The one onther outfit she had, I don't know if it's velvet, I thought it was a leather slip dress.

I've played in a White Wolf game and while it didn't last long, it was vaguely interesting. Like a lot of things, I suppose it depends on the crew.

But yeah, most things hide from werewolves. It's a surival instinct, more affectionately referred to as the "oh, sh*t!" response.

As for the outfits, the whole laytex element kinda detracts from individual curves -- which is just a fact of life, I suppose. But I can still (and do) fantasize.

-Siege

VtM is a lot of role playing, muchkins and mini-maxers just kill it.

Well yeah, but mini-maxers think their cool no matter what and don't know they're complete dorks!

One can min-max and still roleplay well; one doesn't preclude the other.

[Usual disclaimer: Everyone defines 'min-max' differently...]

We're using it in the text of someone whos objective is less a well developed role than to have the onne with the bestest/fastest/bad assest whatever.

I'm a mage with an L8 power focus
Cyber Zombie ninja

becomes a brujah with ober potence etc

Odd how that question quickly turns to combat stats. Personally, when powergaming I'd rather have a Ventrue with Presence 5+, or maybe a True Brujah.

I think min-maxing is using the game rules to get the most "bang for your buck."

You are adding "at the expense of roleplaying and/or character development."

The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive, yet you seem to think that they are. No worries; I just think it's amusing how something that I think is completely neutral [min-maxing isn't a good or bad thing in my eyes] is something that you always see as completely negative.

Actually, I see min-maxing as perfectly realistic for many characters. It would be odd if a char whose background says he's an MD doesn't have the skills to match. Equally odd is a cop who can't shoot.

But all too often, min/maxing is aimed at maximum combat utility, rather than matching the background story.

Exactly.

There's of course the flip side that, if the character was embraced to eventually become an Archon, he needs that combat ability.

Even then, I find flaws like "Inept: Poetry" somewhat . . . ridiculous.

Now with a Tory, that would actually be a real flaw.

Then of course there's Blood magic, the pen-ultimate path to Twinkdom.

Just to add back to the fun, TV guide pointed out that the poster for Underworld looked very similar to the color advertisament for Fox's failed serries Birds of Prey.

Birds f Prey? never even heard of it

Bird of Prey, you didn't miss anything. It was an all girl action program with batgirl and similar characters. It had nothing on other girl action shows like Buffy and Dark Angel.

Birds of Prey - Online

never watch buffy, but DA used to kick arse (is it still runnning?!) and I'vve seen Alias once or twice, that was good too, almost good enough to consider dropping the cash on the season DVD set... almost. if i ever get the cash, I will get the DA one.

Nope Dark Angel ended after two seasons, concidering that the second season was not nearly as good as the first that might have been for the best. Buffy was great until the end, ok episodes where better and worse from time to time but the show was still good. I don't like Alias, they just started to show it on TV here about a month ago but I had seen the first season before and I am not, was not, that impressed with it.

Only TV DVD's I'm dropping any kind of cash on is Futurama, Simpsons and quite possibly Couplings.

The first season of "Dark Angel" was good. The second season sucked and the show folded.

"Birds of Prey" was supposed to be the daughter of Batman and Catwoman is basically "Batgirl the next generation." The previous batgirl is now in a wheelchair and acts as her mentor with a psychic runaway as a tag along. They tried to do too much add mutants as being most of the people with superpowers and a hopeful tie in to "smallville" the superboy serries, but that would screw the time line 6 ways to sunday- Batman's grown daughter as a contemporary with a teen superman?

Since you did mention 'smallville' that show is much better then BoP ever was. Even thou Smallville is the oddest place on earth concidering the amount of weird stuff that goes on there. Makes Sunnydale (in Buffy tVS) almost appear normal.

I watched smallville once or twice but it never clicked with me.

It's a little bizarre -- both Smallville and Alias have absurd sorts of drama, but Alias is entertaining to watch while Smallville just...ugh.

I think Alias has enough action and other stuff to detract from the simpering drama while Smallville revolves mostly around teenage angst.

Compare that to something like "Charmed" which is a soap opera which occasionally deposes gods but only because they were interrupting the very serious conversation about what color the living room curtains should be.

-Siege

I thought it was cute that Viktor runed out to be played by the guy that played the druggie washed-up vocals in Still Crazy.

Well, I saw the movie, and now I don't feel strongly one way or the other about the lawsuit. I can see where White Wolf feels infringed, but the movie didn't really scream "WoD!" at me. So both the movie and lawsuit get a solid "meh" from me.

having seen the movie this weekend, not only did i find it quite a let-down, i didn't find it any more WoD then any other dark occult-ish movie and consider it to be in the same class of movies as bladerunner, though nowhere near as good. having now seen it, if i were the Judge, i'd throw it out. the only way it would be associated with WoD (IMHO) is by the people who say "ooh, vampires and 'wolves! that reminds me of WoD!!" not any specific points., but that's just my opinion.

That seems to be the general feeling. I think they didn't even do the vampires very well. Even the vampires fighting vampires in "Blade" gave more of a feeling these were beings more than human. In Underworld they could just have been the rumanian gymnastics team on a shooting spree.

LMAO. love that analogy.

i'll leave my complaints about the movie itself out of this, but i can't see how the lawsuit can stand up.

I think the law suit was based more on the screenplay or noivelisation which was a bit more discriptive. Adam posted the suit and some of the points just don't appear in the movie, like Vampires having the ability to disappear from personal site.

Well, if WW can sue Sony over this (which I think would be ridiculous, WW vampires are built off centuries of lore and Ann RIce, etc. and are not their own design in the first place), then why isn't there more of this kinda thing? Why didn't FASA sue the makers of Johnny Mnemonic back in the day? Why didn't the makers of d&d sue Id over doom? (beholders and such, which is what everybody I've ever introduced would say when I described a beholder, "Oh, you mean like in Doom?")
Why didn't they? Because these were just ideas people took, not just stories. ANd when it comes to the story of Underworld or Collins' book, it was obviously riped off Romeo and Juliet and similar stories. That would be like somebody suing other horror movie companies over the creepy guy sneaking up on teenagers making out in a car, because they invented it first in their old man with the hook for a hand story or something stupid. I can see where WW is coming from (and yes, Iplayed vamp and werewolf back in the day), but just don't see enough ripping off of any of WW's original ideas even

And on a similar note (kind of), how bout this. Looks like a d20 shadowrun to me (I hate d20, to random of a chance). Seems like a big ripoff to me, but nothing there I think fanpro could sue over, either. Just more proof that ideas get ripped off all the time.

The law suit, which Adam was nice neough to post particulars on a while back, was not just in the same genre, the way Jonny Neumonic was cyberpunk, but claimed there were significant similarities between the vampires of "Underworld" and the ones in VtM.

Writing a book about vampires dopesn't mena you're infringing on Anne Rice, BUT writing one about a brooding man from Federalist New Orleans that laments his lost humanity and hates his sire, a wild spirit from France who keeps him in thrall with hidden knowledge. that starts to cross the line.

Having played the game and seen the movie I don't think the suit has merrit, becasue a lot of the points raised in the law suit don't appear in the movie. Maybe they were in the screen play or something but didn't make the screen.

@ Danbot37:

Maybe because Johnny Mnemonic was based on a previously written story by William Gibson?

The ID programmers were D&D fans, it was a homage and I think the TSR guys liked it.

Let's face it, why doesn't Arnie sue SR because of those "tapes" that ruined his career? There is a line between parody and plagiarism, ask Mel Brooks.

When is Disney going to sue FASA for ripping off TaleSpin?

Say what?