Full Version: Grenade counter measures
Definitely not. Blast may be relatively (stress on relatively) easy to direct, but even if you have freezefoam that miraculously manages that— a dicey proposition in any realistic terms— shrapnel will still punch right through. You might as well say that freezefoam can direct bullets away and make about as much sense.
Instead of throwing the blanket over top of the grenade, try using a net launcher device. Use a compresses gas, or a explosive (gun powder, or something similar to the powder used in nail guns to fire the nail) to propel the net. I think this would make the device more effective in tight situations.
Make the net out of a heavier than average material (14 kg average for a bomb blanket 1.5 x 2 meters), usual weights on the outside to allow the the net to spread, and some hooks to stick into soft targets you have a multipurpose weapon that can be used to target a person and hold them, or to hit a grenade on the ground, as the topic of this thread is.
The recoil from a net gun firing a 14 kg net would knock most humans back, but a troll or large human (body and str 5+) should be able to fire a device with a fairly short range (4 short, 8 med, 12 long). Have a smart system to alter the firing method of the gun based off of a range finder to allow for optimum deployment of the net, similar to the grenade range finders that allow for air burst on mini-grenade launchers.
This is only useful in short range situations, but this would be when running from the grenade would be difficult, and attempting to target the person about to throw the grenade would be feasible and attempting to cover the grenade near your feet would be feasible as well on a faster spread on the net.
One the site that I googled for bomb suppression blanket information said that the primary purpose of the bomb suppression is that it will catch the fragments in the fabric and redirect the blast. This would not totally contain a grenade blast in a fast deployment situation, but should lower the power by a few points (2-4 pts), and thus the total effective range of the grenade as well.
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Just a random thought for the day.
Make the net out of a heavier than average material (14 kg average for a bomb blanket 1.5 x 2 meters), usual weights on the outside to allow the the net to spread, and some hooks to stick into soft targets you have a multipurpose weapon that can be used to target a person and hold them, or to hit a grenade on the ground, as the topic of this thread is.
The recoil from a net gun firing a 14 kg net would knock most humans back, but a troll or large human (body and str 5+) should be able to fire a device with a fairly short range (4 short, 8 med, 12 long). Have a smart system to alter the firing method of the gun based off of a range finder to allow for optimum deployment of the net, similar to the grenade range finders that allow for air burst on mini-grenade launchers.
This is only useful in short range situations, but this would be when running from the grenade would be difficult, and attempting to target the person about to throw the grenade would be feasible and attempting to cover the grenade near your feet would be feasible as well on a faster spread on the net.
One the site that I googled for bomb suppression blanket information said that the primary purpose of the bomb suppression is that it will catch the fragments in the fabric and redirect the blast. This would not totally contain a grenade blast in a fast deployment situation, but should lower the power by a few points (2-4 pts), and thus the total effective range of the grenade as well.
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Just a random thought for the day.
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| Definitely not. Blast may be relatively (stress on relatively) easy to direct, but even if you have freezefoam that miraculously manages that— a dicey proposition in any realistic terms— shrapnel will still punch right through. |
Because the force of the blast is directed in one direction, the shrapnel would not be propelled in reverse: The foam is absorbing the "equal and opposite reaction" rather than the shrapnel. Thus, the shrapnel is not propelled at all and, in fact, the free shrapnel may go even farther.
That's still assuming that the additional rigidity of the freeze foam over the steel shell of the hand grenade actually makes a great enough difference in the mechanics of the explosion to direct the blast. Continuing with the ˝" wooden board equivalent, I'd say the likelihood of that happening rounds to zero.
| QUOTE (Tarantula) |
| Think about it, smartlink it. Vision mag 3. Boom, now you got 2's... |
You are aware that the two cannot be used in conjunction, aren't you?
If they're close, you smartlink, far you vision mag, gets almost the same effect, didn't feel like typing out all the TN's.
It's cool. From your post it wasn't clear that you were seperating them, since you won't ever get a TN of 2 from Vision Mag without aiming (or a stationary target).
I think it looks like concensus id that a blanket or netgun versionn of said blanket is most likely to redirect and deflect shrapnel. I think that is increadibly reasonable and not stupid. You dont need a lot of weight to redirect/slow a blast as relatively small as a grenade. I like the thought of reducing power by 2-4 depending on a "scatter" effect like in thrown weapons to simulate accuracy of throw and correct coverage.
i don't think merely hitting the grenade with a slop of quick-drying glue is enough. the glue is liquid; there's no guarantee that a bad shot might not dampen the wrong side of the explosion, protecting those on the other side and leaving you open to the blast. you should roll for scatter direction (not distance), and use every two successes to change the scatter direction by one point. the targets directly opposite the final scatter direction take full damage; at one point off in either direction, the damage is reduced by 1; at two points off, the damage is reduced by 3; at the full three points off, the damage is reduced by 5.
for instance: grenade! Bob the Guard fires his Lugey Gun at the grenade, and gets 4 successes. he rolls for scatter direction, and comes up with a 3. checking the scatter direction table, we see that by default, Bob is at 4. Bob uses his two of his four success to change the scatter direction to 4; he gets a -5 to the power of the grenade blast. anyone standing in directions 3 or 5 get -3 power; anyone in directions 2 or 6 get -1 power; and anybody in direction 1 gets the full power.
for instance: grenade! Bob the Guard fires his Lugey Gun at the grenade, and gets 4 successes. he rolls for scatter direction, and comes up with a 3. checking the scatter direction table, we see that by default, Bob is at 4. Bob uses his two of his four success to change the scatter direction to 4; he gets a -5 to the power of the grenade blast. anyone standing in directions 3 or 5 get -3 power; anyone in directions 2 or 6 get -1 power; and anybody in direction 1 gets the full power.
| QUOTE (Jrayjoker) |
| I think it looks like concensus id that a blanket or netgun versionn of said blanket is most likely to redirect and deflect shrapnel. |
I fail to see any such consensus.
I think the theme of glue use started tending more towards nailing the people with the grenades. Especially if the squad is going for nonlethal takedowns, having a couple of guys with splatguns makes sense.
Just like everything else, there is no perfect response to teams using grenades. I would make use of the chance that while doing legwork, runners can tip off their target. That gives them a reason to have grenade counter measures ready when the team busts in.
Just like everything else, there is no perfect response to teams using grenades. I would make use of the chance that while doing legwork, runners can tip off their target. That gives them a reason to have grenade counter measures ready when the team busts in.
Since when did grenades become Big Dangerous Signature Weapons?
| QUOTE (Solstice @ Jan 13 2005, 02:24 AM) |
| I don't think tossing it back would work that great. IMO anyone who is in a combat position would delay a slight bit before throwing to prevent it. I know it does happen but I was thinking of another way a more "clever" way if you will. |
our team does this... and it does work
I think it's about time someone like SporkPimp came along. On a forum, all you have are your words. Live and die by your posts, and don't be upset if somone calls you out on it.
| QUOTE (Necro Tech) |
| he hangs out with "those tossers" and bingo, you have an ID. |
One time, our team got called "those tossers," but I think we were in a gay british decker bar at the time, so... it might have been a different context.
| QUOTE (Arethusa @ Jan 13 2005, 04:22 PM) |
| You might as well say that freezefoam can direct bullets away and make about as much sense. |
Well, if it's barrier rating 12, light calibur rounds will bounce off of it. I personally chalk this particular incarnation of rigidifying spray foam to the same super- (or psuedo-) science that lets you have a grenade with a chemical cocktail sleeping injection that can be absorbed through the skin.
| QUOTE (noneuklid) |
| Well, if it's barrier rating 12, light calibur rounds will bounce off of it. |
In fact, anything up to and including single HMG rounds will bounce off of it. The light layer of solidified foam works just like 20-30cm of concrete in most respects. It will also stop M79B1 Light Antitank Weapons and Arbelast II Medium Antitank Weapons without trouble. It might be a good idea to spray a layer on any non-moving parts of vehicles (other than windows and sensors and such) when about to enter combat -- effectively 6 extra points of Armor, like having Ablative Armor-3.
I don't see what is wrong with that. It is a future fantasy game after all. 
I am partial to the idea that it is just a foaming adhesive when going up against blast and balistics.
I am partial to the idea that it is just a foaming adhesive when going up against blast and balistics.
I think keeping a dwarf on the team, just to throw on grenades, is an effective tactic. Especially if you freeze-foam the dwarf before each mission.
If I recall correctly most grenades use an actual fuse, that is the kind that burns until it hits the primer charge which then blows the main charge. If that's the case (and in shadowrun it could be different), could you extinguish a grenade's fuse and thereby stop it from going off?
Just squirting water probably won't work, because the thing is inside a metal casing. But what about a concentrated blast of Halon or liquid nitrogen? Something like that has utility as a fire extinguisher. Fires are a common by product of close action in a building and they can cause ridiculous amounts of damage if not stopped quickly enough, so it makes sense for a well equipped reaction team to have one on hand.
I don't know. Maybe a bit too much of a stretch given the situation: in a fight I'd rather have my gun and a chance of shooting the SOB with the grenade before it gets near me than have a fire extinguisher (however cool). And it does dick all to electrically fused grenades, which I imagine Shadowrun would use anyway . . . .
Just squirting water probably won't work, because the thing is inside a metal casing. But what about a concentrated blast of Halon or liquid nitrogen? Something like that has utility as a fire extinguisher. Fires are a common by product of close action in a building and they can cause ridiculous amounts of damage if not stopped quickly enough, so it makes sense for a well equipped reaction team to have one on hand.
I don't know. Maybe a bit too much of a stretch given the situation: in a fight I'd rather have my gun and a chance of shooting the SOB with the grenade before it gets near me than have a fire extinguisher (however cool). And it does dick all to electrically fused grenades, which I imagine Shadowrun would use anyway . . . .
SR grenades are electrically primed. that's the only easy way to explain a) the fact that you can set the timer anywhere from 2 minutes to contact, and b) the exactness of the fuse settings.
Basic burning fuses connected to a blasting cap function just fine deep underwater (and look and sound really funny when you throw them into a pond), and the fuse in a hand grenade is indeed covered in thick metal, plastic and other substances in all directions, so I doubt those would work even if the grenades weren't electrically primed.
Just to nitpick the bomb-blanket-in-a-modified-net-gun idea, net-guns work because the air can flow through the mesh. A blanket fired from a net gun would sail like a frisbee if it managed to completely spread out. More likely it would partially spread out and move in a random direction like a good knuckle-ball only more so.
I don't know about you, man, but I'm going to be in the parking lot trying to find a way to drive over my head.
| QUOTE (Da9iel) |
| Just to nitpick the bomb-blanket-in-a-modified-net-gun idea, net-guns work because the air can flow through the mesh. A blanket fired from a net gun would sail like a frisbee if it managed to completely spread out. More likely it would partially spread out and move in a random direction like a good knuckle-ball only more so. |
This is the kind of thing that when you hear about it, you just wonder what you were thinking with the initial idea that you missed a flaw this large in the plan. Even if you cut the blanket to allow for air flow then it would not be very effective in stopping a grenade blast defeating the proposed purpose of the device.
Increasing the spin and overweighting the outer edges to get increased expansion and stability against air resistance would work to a limited degree, but as you said this would end up with a very much frisbee effect if it works, and a short overall path with alot of random motion much more often.
The solid net launch style bomb blanket is almost definitely out for feasibility as a ranged weapon. it may work not too badly on a drone designed to find and cover grenades when they land. This could be useful to have the drone stand over the grenade and drop the net then run or stay if it has high enough armour on it. Not really practical, but technically feasible sort of thing.
It may be effective to use a shell around the blanket and then use compressed air/small explosive charge/packing pressure to expand the blanket ball in flight removing the shell. This would a allow a nicely aerodynamic shell to increase distance. This removes the short range benefits of the weapon (due to increased expansion times), but you usually don't want to be standing directly beside a grenade when it goes off.
This is also moving considerably away from the grenade coverage, but would still be useful if someone wants to try for some unusual type of weapon that for some reason had a heavy blanket that was required.
When you're not in a vacuum or low density/viscosity medium this idea literally just doesn't fly that well. Might make an interesting backyard toy, but not much anything I see too many shadow runners using on a regular basis.
This may work though for a security measure and make the blanket out of something resembling fly paper using some of the goo and glues mentioned here as a coating on one or more sides, and a teflon sheet, or similar that can be destroyed during expansion to immobilize a runner coming into a complex or limited use drone or troll mounted weapon. But a net would work at least as well in most situations and has much better aerodynamics, as would freeze foam and goo guns.
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Just a random thought for the day.
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