Full Version: Grenade counter measures
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| In canon SR, though, this would work wonderfully. Freeze foam has a Barrier Rating of 12 (twelve!), on par with Structural Materials -- a light layer of freeze foam is supposedly as hard to break as ~20cm of concrete. |
Hey! I know! My next villains will all walk not in those stupid bulky impractical armors, but in foamed clothes.
Why do I have this vision of the big villain NPC lying back in a foamy bubble bath, cackling madly and shouting "You cannot harm me! I am in-veen-cible!" ?
I am distressed.
I am distressed.
Then again, Freeze foam is not really known for it's flexibility. Not to mention that there would still be the kinetic kick from absorbing the blast.
So anyway, the blanket would be too heavy and bulky to be practical for use in smothering grenades, but I think there's interesting potentail in a specialized freeze foam gun. It might not contain the grenade unless the user rolled really well, but there's always a chance that it can decrease the power somewhat.
So anyway, the blanket would be too heavy and bulky to be practical for use in smothering grenades, but I think there's interesting potentail in a specialized freeze foam gun. It might not contain the grenade unless the user rolled really well, but there's always a chance that it can decrease the power somewhat.
Another idea. Dikoted steel box. Drop the box on the nade, sit on the box. You now have someone who "jumps" on the grenade... but with a nice little barrier between him and said deadly device.
Depending on what material it is before you dikote it... it could work.
Depending on what material it is before you dikote it... it could work.
Why would it have to be a *specialized* freeze foam gun, though? Just hose down a grenade if you see one. You don't need to alter the delivery system for that.
-Albert
-Albert
| QUOTE (Solstice) |
| I don't think tossing it back would work that great. IMO anyone who is in a combat position would delay a slight bit before throwing to prevent it. I know it does happen but I was thinking of another way a more "clever" way if you will. |
That's true, but impossible by the Shadowrun rules. Grenades go off on your next initiative (or at the gamemaster's discretion if its the last combat pass). Any grenade can be thrown back if a person is close enough to reach it.
My group will be house ruling that somehow, but if you play by the RAW it can't be avoided (unless everyone throws their grenades at the last combat pass and the GM decides they go off immediately).
Also, you can't have a splat launcher underbarrel. For one, its made to shoot 1-liter packages of glue. 1 liter is a pretty big heft to have on the end of your gun. Not to mention awkwardly wide to hold (compared to a standard grip).
Note to self: Start packing freeze foam along with my splat gun.
Note to self: Start packing freeze foam along with my splat gun.
Why do I suddenly see freeze foam raining down from a splat sprinkler system? A CCSS rigger could trigger single nozzels, or just blanket the entire area the runners are in...
edit: this is in response to James' post
Perhaps successes should reduce time between landing and detonation the same way they reduce scatter. Basically, the more skill you have the better you're able to estimate how much of the timer to cook off before you throw?
Hmmm, that could get complicated, and probably not worth checking everytime.
Maybe IF someone tries to throw it back there's something like an opposed test between their Quickness and the thrower's skill, or maybe Intelligence to see if they can throw it back or if it blows up in their hand.
But however it's implimented, trying to throw a grenade back should put yourself in EXTREME peril; and you should never be able to say, "Oh, I'll be fine, I'm going at 5 and this grenade won't detonate 'till 0"
Perhaps successes should reduce time between landing and detonation the same way they reduce scatter. Basically, the more skill you have the better you're able to estimate how much of the timer to cook off before you throw?
Hmmm, that could get complicated, and probably not worth checking everytime.
Maybe IF someone tries to throw it back there's something like an opposed test between their Quickness and the thrower's skill, or maybe Intelligence to see if they can throw it back or if it blows up in their hand.
But however it's implimented, trying to throw a grenade back should put yourself in EXTREME peril; and you should never be able to say, "Oh, I'll be fine, I'm going at 5 and this grenade won't detonate 'till 0"
| QUOTE |
| Another idea. Dikoted steel box. Drop the box on the 'nade, sit on the box. You now have someone who "jumps" on the grenade... but with a nice little barrier between him and said deadly device. |
"And here we see the first man on the moon without a space suit," said the tour guide.
Based on the fact that an explosive discharge, when channeled, is a rocket engine, the guy who jumps on the box better be really heavy unless he wants to hit the ceiling.
Also, a fully welded 1.25cm thick 30cm^3 steel box should be able to contain the explosion of a standard grenade pretty easily, but it may be a one shot item. Also, very encumbering and awkward. It would weigh ~50kg.
Back to the gernade blanket. I keep having an image of a fisherman on the edge of a lake with a circular net weighted along the edges. He flings the net out from himself and it expands into a disk as it lands on the water.
With the advent of superstrong ballistic fabrics and assuming you are trying to mitigate the blast and shrapnel and not eliminate the threat completely, I think a small net (2m diameter) rolled and stored on a belt clip for ease of access, and rolled to deploy correctly (like a parachute is) could work and be reasonable. Especially for an HTR team.
From a physics standpoint, assuming for now (best case scenario) the blanket lands with it's center directly over the grenade, the grenade goes off and the center of the blanket is rapidly blown upwards. The blanket in and of itself does not weigh enough to slow the blast appreciably, so the weighted edge is pulled in towards the center of the blast radius where it encounters the shrapnel and blast, slowing and redirecting the damaging effects of the grenade.
Solstice, I hope this was more what you were looking for based on your idea. And the idea of using a blanket to mitigate blast effects was not stupid, it just needed refining based on the potential uses in shadowrun. Are there better options right now in canon? Sure. But this is something that can be used by a mundane with a little training. It doesn't need to be overly encumbering if you only intend to mitigate the damage, not eliminate it. And you could use the thrown weapons/grenade rules to figure out how effective the throw was including "scatter". I won't try to work out the rules. I just thought I could get the thread back to grenades and blast blankets.
Flame away y'all.
| QUOTE (Jrayjoker) |
| Also, a fully welded 1.25cm thick 30cm^3 steel box should be able to contain the explosion of a standard grenade pretty easily, but it may be a one shot item. Also, very encumbering and awkward. It would weigh ~50kg. |
How about a smaller box of dikoted titanium. Being titanium makes it 1/2 the weight initially, not to mention a stronger metal, which allows you to make it thinner, especially if you're already planning on dikoting it for strength afterwards.
This makes a nice, light, cover.... As for the instant rocket... well, i'd rather have a box go shooting up, than shrapnel shooting into me. So just drop the box on the grenade, then cover your ears.
Moon Hawk: Interesting ideas, we'll be dicussing it this weekend while we make characters.
I may let them subtract successes, with each success lowering the time by 5 combat turns. They can either throw it very accurately, or be rushed when they do finally throw it and be less accurate but better times. Someone with really high skill would be able to do both at the same time.
I may let them subtract successes, with each success lowering the time by 5 combat turns. They can either throw it very accurately, or be rushed when they do finally throw it and be less accurate but better times. Someone with really high skill would be able to do both at the same time.
T, that was my thought about using the blanket, redirect.
Where is the material strength benefit of dicote listed in the books? M&M?
Also, decreasing the thickness considerably will allow the box to deform with a ratio of the inverse squared. the deformation may be enough to eliminate the benefit of the box.
For example, with 1cm thickness as baseline:
t (cm) deflection factor increase
1 -> 1
0.9 -> 1.234567901
0.8 -> 1.5625
0.7 -> 2.040816327
0.6 -> 2.777777778
0.5 -> 4
0.4 -> 6.25
0.3 -> 11.11111111
0.2 -> 25
0.1 -> 100
Where is the material strength benefit of dicote listed in the books? M&M?
Also, decreasing the thickness considerably will allow the box to deform with a ratio of the inverse squared. the deformation may be enough to eliminate the benefit of the box.
For example, with 1cm thickness as baseline:
t (cm) deflection factor increase
1 -> 1
0.9 -> 1.234567901
0.8 -> 1.5625
0.7 -> 2.040816327
0.6 -> 2.777777778
0.5 -> 4
0.4 -> 6.25
0.3 -> 11.11111111
0.2 -> 25
0.1 -> 100
Don't forget, dikoteing is diamond coating a substance. I think the rules are around pg 113 of M&M. I know 115 has chem weapon delivery systems, so dikote should be shortly before that.
While the box might deform better, maybe thats sorta why freeze foam would work also. Rather than shooting off like a rocket, it just kinda puffs up like a balloon, jumping up a bit, and expanding out. Maybe a flexible, but very cohesive futuristic alloy of some kind.
While the box might deform better, maybe thats sorta why freeze foam would work also. Rather than shooting off like a rocket, it just kinda puffs up like a balloon, jumping up a bit, and expanding out. Maybe a flexible, but very cohesive futuristic alloy of some kind.
Sure, a lot of the blast mitigation techniques in use in todays structures are based on an energy absorption principle, and the yielding of base metals is an excelent energy absorber for high rates of incidence. Also, metals and other construction materials tend to become stronger when loaded at high rates (microseconds, i.e. blast effects).
This is a problem that can be met with an old fashioned response. Grenade sumps are amazingly cheap and reliable for what they are. If every floor has a slightly slanted floor that guides grenades into a small, sturdy channel, then most grenade blasts are going to be contained into the sumps. If your security personell know how to stick and move and egg your runners into the sumped areas, then they will mostly eliminate the threat.
Hey, I just got another idea. Rather than have the dedicated blanket-thrower guy. How about dedicated leaf-blower man? He just points, and blows the grenades away! What? Leaf blowers are too ineffective? What about poor Mr. Blanket man? Of course, you could also have the dedicated robot whos prime directive is, keep grenades away from these guys. With some robitic reflexes and such, that guy could just grab them, and being a drone, probably move quick enough to run by the enemy group, dropping the grenade on the way, and keep going.
Give me a break you drama queens. 
You pretend like this is the worst totally jacked up, rediculous, waste of time topic (so you say) ever posted in this forum. Well I've been here for a while and I've seen you people spend an inordinate amount of time on the STUPIDEST topics I have ever been unfortunate enough to read. I don't think I need to name names. I'm beginning to see it's some kind of personal vendetta held over from some other discussions. Aside from being really sad it's also counterproductive to good discussion. So if you think my idea is stupid then stop wasting your time reading my topic and let us morons sit in here and stew in our own stupidity. 
Don't come back until you can contribute a valid idea to the discussion.
As for everyone else: good ideas. When I have more time later I'll post some others I had last night.
You pretend like this is the worst totally jacked up, rediculous, waste of time topic (so you say) ever posted in this forum. Well I've been here for a while and I've seen you people spend an inordinate amount of time on the STUPIDEST topics I have ever been unfortunate enough to read. I don't think I need to name names. I'm beginning to see it's some kind of personal vendetta held over from some other discussions. Aside from being really sad it's also counterproductive to good discussion. So if you think my idea is stupid then stop wasting your time reading my topic and let us morons sit in here and stew in our own stupidity. Don't come back until you can contribute a valid idea to the discussion. As for everyone else: good ideas. When I have more time later I'll post some others I had last night.
Come on, wouldn't you volunteer to be the HTR leaf-blower man specialist? 
It was a spur of the moment idea that was funny... come on.
It was a spur of the moment idea that was funny... come on.
How about bumper pool with hand grenades?
Hockey adapt with cyberskates and his hockey stick?
Casey Jones clones from TMNT!
Or just adept-with-Missile Parry.
Solstice, I am of course just having fun. I do take the topic seriously.
I'm kind of leaning to believing that the blanket probably wouldn't work because even if the blanket itself was strong as steel plate, the grenade blast would likely blow the blanket right off unless it's weighed down. The reason why the "posthumous Purple Heart" works is because a human body weighs far more than a blanket (and probably has a higher barrier rating when it comes down to it).
Magic might help counter a grenade; someone already mentioned Levitate. Barrier might work as well. Magic Fingers is another one, but that gets tricky since it's canon that picking up and tossing a live grenade is a Quickness check Tgt#8.
Perhaps instead of directly "countering" the party's zeal for grenades, how about just have the opposing force use a bunch of grenades of their own? If a tactic works and is difficult to counter, then why not just copy it and use it against the players? "What's good for the goose...", as they say.
Magic might help counter a grenade; someone already mentioned Levitate. Barrier might work as well. Magic Fingers is another one, but that gets tricky since it's canon that picking up and tossing a live grenade is a Quickness check Tgt#8.
Perhaps instead of directly "countering" the party's zeal for grenades, how about just have the opposing force use a bunch of grenades of their own? If a tactic works and is difficult to counter, then why not just copy it and use it against the players? "What's good for the goose...", as they say.
Actually the TN is 6 for a regular grenade, and 8 for a mini. But thats beside the point.
In SR, if I remember right, a meta-human barrier rating is 2x armor worn + body. (Armor going in one side, through the person, and armor on the other side). This puts your average person at barrier 3. And the average army guy at around 5. (Give the army man 2-3 points of impact, and that jumps up to 9-11).
I suppose another way to do it, is have an air elemental snatch the grenade for you. Or accident them before they shoot it... Oops, the launcher didn't launch it, but still armed it....
In SR, if I remember right, a meta-human barrier rating is 2x armor worn + body. (Armor going in one side, through the person, and armor on the other side). This puts your average person at barrier 3. And the average army guy at around 5. (Give the army man 2-3 points of impact, and that jumps up to 9-11).
I suppose another way to do it, is have an air elemental snatch the grenade for you. Or accident them before they shoot it... Oops, the launcher didn't launch it, but still armed it....
Yeah, good for the goose is a techique I love to use. My players hated it when I sucessfully use their own tactics against them.
Its also why you don't see many Barret toting sniper adepts running about. They tend to get the rest of the team killed by enemy barret toting snipers.
I'll make this as clear as possible:
Logical, realistic, believable approach to Freeze Foam vs. grenades:
Useless. Assuming you splat the stuff right on top of the grenade, the material is still so weak that it reduces the Power of the attack by 1, at best. It's cheaper and more effective to get helmets for all members of the security team.
Canon approach to Freeze Foam vs. grenades:
Assuming you interpret the rules so that the foam immediately solidifies, it will always contain any single non-penetrating explosion up to a Power of 24 perfectly, no questions asked.
You could also read the Game Information entry for Freeze Foam to mean that it solidifies only at the end of the Combat Turn where it was "fired". This would make it useless against most grenades thrown by characters with reaction enhancements, or even useless against all grenades period.
It seems quite obvious to me that Freeze Foam was given a BR of 12 only for immobilization concerns, to make it more difficult to break (someone) out of by force. It makes sense that breaking a person out of a full-body, solidified "foam suit" would require quite a feat of strength. However, a BR of 12 is a very bad way of ruling that. I find it a bit silly that an inch or two of solidified foam would as hard to break as 4"+ of concrete.
Think about some RL materials which, if they fully covered a metahuman body, would be extremely difficult but not impossible to break out of. Wooden boards is one that comes to mind. A normal human covered in a form-fitting, ½" thick wooden "suit" wouldn't stand a chance of breaking out, but a tough troll could pull it off. Thus the ½" thick wooden boards that I mentioned earlier might be a decent equivalent.
Now, would you take your employer seriously if, when working as a security guard in a firm, you were issued a 1m x 1m, ½" thick wooden shield which you're supposed to toss on top of any live hand grenades thrown at your general direction?
Logical, realistic, believable approach to Freeze Foam vs. grenades:
Useless. Assuming you splat the stuff right on top of the grenade, the material is still so weak that it reduces the Power of the attack by 1, at best. It's cheaper and more effective to get helmets for all members of the security team.
Canon approach to Freeze Foam vs. grenades:
Assuming you interpret the rules so that the foam immediately solidifies, it will always contain any single non-penetrating explosion up to a Power of 24 perfectly, no questions asked.
You could also read the Game Information entry for Freeze Foam to mean that it solidifies only at the end of the Combat Turn where it was "fired". This would make it useless against most grenades thrown by characters with reaction enhancements, or even useless against all grenades period.
It seems quite obvious to me that Freeze Foam was given a BR of 12 only for immobilization concerns, to make it more difficult to break (someone) out of by force. It makes sense that breaking a person out of a full-body, solidified "foam suit" would require quite a feat of strength. However, a BR of 12 is a very bad way of ruling that. I find it a bit silly that an inch or two of solidified foam would as hard to break as 4"+ of concrete.
Think about some RL materials which, if they fully covered a metahuman body, would be extremely difficult but not impossible to break out of. Wooden boards is one that comes to mind. A normal human covered in a form-fitting, ½" thick wooden "suit" wouldn't stand a chance of breaking out, but a tough troll could pull it off. Thus the ½" thick wooden boards that I mentioned earlier might be a decent equivalent.
Now, would you take your employer seriously if, when working as a security guard in a firm, you were issued a 1m x 1m, ½" thick wooden shield which you're supposed to toss on top of any live hand grenades thrown at your general direction?
Well. Honestly, I'd probably assume they were magic.
Until the mage looked at me sadly, anyway.
I'm assuming that they're talking about an improved version of barrier foam that literally does harden to stronger than concrete. I'm not much of a chemist, but it seems to me that such a material is not any more improbable than dikote is.
Until the mage looked at me sadly, anyway.
I'm assuming that they're talking about an improved version of barrier foam that literally does harden to stronger than concrete. I'm not much of a chemist, but it seems to me that such a material is not any more improbable than dikote is.
Very good comparison Austere. As fun as having a spray weapons specialist sticking grenades everywhere I can see many other uses like this. Ok, we tape the grenade to the door, then put some foam around it, so it'll only go into the door, now we have instant door-opener.
Or, we need to get through the floor, put some C-4 under a plastic dome the size the hole you want to be, spray freeze foam on top of the whole thing, detonate. Bam, insta hole. Etc, many bad bad bad uses.
Another fun one I've thought of for a rigger-mobile. Freeze-foam loaded watercannon on the back of your vehicle. Oh, they're chasing us? *spray* *screech* *loud crunch* That'll stop 'em.
Or, we need to get through the floor, put some C-4 under a plastic dome the size the hole you want to be, spray freeze foam on top of the whole thing, detonate. Bam, insta hole. Etc, many bad bad bad uses.
Another fun one I've thought of for a rigger-mobile. Freeze-foam loaded watercannon on the back of your vehicle. Oh, they're chasing us? *spray* *screech* *loud crunch* That'll stop 'em.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| You could also read the Game Information entry for Freeze Foam to mean that it solidifies only at the end of the Combat Turn where it was "fired". This would make it useless against most grenades thrown by characters with reaction enhancements, or even useless against all grenades period. |
How so?
They toss their grenade at initiative X, at your initative you foam the grenade. If they toss it at the end of the initative pass, the GM decides when it goes off next turn, which is likely to be somewhere near the end of the first initative pass for that turn.
| QUOTE (noneuklid) |
| I'm not much of a chemist, but it seems to me that such a material is not any more improbable than dikote is. |
One of the many overlooked side effects of the Awakening, freeze foam's many thousand year old vendetta with hand grenades is only now coming to be understood. Normally far too weak to be much use, awakened freeze foam is very angry at the hand grenade for past wrongs visited upon his father's father's and so on, and will become unreasonably tough, rigid, etc in order to deny the hand grenade his one shining moment at the end of his life.
Hah! Awakened Freeze Foam. Much like Awakened dimonds, which seamlessly bond to non-carbon surfaces and make katanas sharper.
Because the plasma furnace makes the diamond very angry.
Sweet.
On the side, maybe just have the freeze foam change the damage to stun, but not lower the power to represent all the shrapnel getting absorbed but not the blast?
On the side, maybe just have the freeze foam change the damage to stun, but not lower the power to represent all the shrapnel getting absorbed but not the blast?
How would that make sense? The blast is what propels the shrapnel. Moreover, it's extraordinarily unlikely that the freezefoam could absorb a blast of the size you get with a handgrenade, but even if you did, shrapnel always penetrates better than any blast effect because it's a small piece of metal moving very quickly. If anything, I'd expect slight containment of the blast and little to no dampening of the shrapnel effect.
Of course, none of this make any difference if you play by canon, where grenades are annoying, shrapnel bounces off walls at 90 degree angles, and diamonds and freeze foam are really pissed off.
Of course, none of this make any difference if you play by canon, where grenades are annoying, shrapnel bounces off walls at 90 degree angles, and diamonds and freeze foam are really pissed off.
Even better, have a splat gun, delay your action, then interrupt the guy throwing it with some splat gun loving. Now hes got a grenade stuck to his hand.
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| They toss their grenade at initiative X, at your initative you foam the grenade. If they toss it at the end of the initative pass, the GM decides when it goes off next turn, which is likely to be somewhere near the end of the first initative pass for that turn. |
Not according to canon, and I was discussing strict canon in that bit. In canon SR3, all hand grenades go off at the end of the Combat Turn at the latest (Timing Grenades, sr3.118). Then it comes down to the GM, which effect takes place first at the end of the Combat Turn: solidification of the foam or the explosion of the grenade.
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
| On the side, maybe just have the freeze foam change the damage to stun, but not lower the power to represent all the shrapnel getting absorbed but not the blast? |
Arethusa put it well. If something is going to penetrate, it's going to be the shrapnel, and freeze foam shouldn't even contain the blast to be frank. Based on what I've seen fragmentation grenades do, I'd say -1 Power is the absolute max.
"Hold on, let me just stand in this fire corridor so I can ready an action to use my limited range splat gun in case somebody tries to throw something at me..." 
| QUOTE (Tarantula) |
| Even better, have a splat gun, delay your action, then interrupt the guy throwing it with some splat gun loving. Now hes got a grenade stuck to his hand. |
Best suggestion on this thread so far. Except if your GM rules that the foam does not affect anything until the end of the Combat Turn. Still, I want to see more Splat Guns in combat use!
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) | ||
Not according to canon, and I was discussing strict canon in that bit. In canon SR3, all hand grenades go off at the end of the Combat Turn at the latest (Timing Grenades, sr3.118). Then it comes down to the GM, which effect takes place first at the end of the Combat Turn: solidification of the foam or the explosion of the grenade. |
Interesting.
My page 118 says that all grenades go off in the next combat phase of the character making the grenade attack. If the character has no more combat phases in the turn, the grenade will go of at the end of the next combat turn. If the grenade is thrown in the last initiative pass of the combat turn it is up to the GM to determine when it goes off.
That's weird. An older printing, perhaps? Mine clearly says that if it's launched/thrown in the last Initiative Pass of the Combat Turn, it goes off at the end of that Combat Turn. Mine is the 9th printing, and there is no errata to this.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) | ||
Best suggestion on this thread so far. Except if your GM rules that the foam does not affect anything until the end of the Combat Turn. Still, I want to see more Splat Guns in combat use! |
Splat guns != freeze foam!
Splat gun, ranges are as follows short, 0-10, mid, 11-20, long, 21-50, extreme, 51-100.
Thats not that limited. Compared to a taser, any pistol, or even a SMG. Also, splat glue takes no time to "solidify" because it doesn't, it just hits, and everything is instantly stuck. If they don't make the Body(
knockback check then they're instantly knocked down and glued to the floor. Even if they do make the check, to do anything, they need a strength (6) equal to the # of successes on the attack to do it. So, you want to get up? Make a check? throw that grenade in your hand, make a check. Get your gun out of the holster, make a check. Etc... they're nasty nasty.
Oh, sorry, mixed them up. But, seriously, seeing more of either would be a good thing.
Here, example of how nasty splat guns are from a game. We're doing a break and smash as a distraction for another team. Risky right? Well, we didn't know that we were a decoy, and the other team tipped the star on us. We break in the delivery door to the place, and start loading some of their goods in our van while the 3rd member of the party chucks a concussion grenade into the main storefront. I'm sitting in the back of the van helping load cargo in, and we're just leaving when I see a lonestar patrol vehicle come up. I splat the front of it, blocking the window, and glueing the doors shut. Then, as my teamates come sprinting out the back door, I splat that, and stick it shut. We start driving off, the back door guys can't open, and only one of the 2 cops manages to get his door open, and takes a meager shot at us as we drive off.
Think about it, smartlink it. Vision mag 3. Boom, now you got 2's, put some combat pool into it, and the only thing that might stand a chance to rip free is a troll, as they need strength (6) successes equal or more to your launch weapon + combat pool (2) successes. I don't think anyones moving for a while.
Think about it, smartlink it. Vision mag 3. Boom, now you got 2's, put some combat pool into it, and the only thing that might stand a chance to rip free is a troll, as they need strength (6) successes equal or more to your launch weapon + combat pool (2) successes. I don't think anyones moving for a while.
Tactically speaking, the way to handle grenades is to stay spread out. At least 5m between men. Indoors that's a pain in the neck, but you can probably approach from multiple directions. If it's an on site security team, odds are they know the layout quite well and have at least decent communications. At that point, a grenade becomes a slow way of taking down one man. To take it a step further, you can then throw your own grenades at the team (anybody notice how runners tend to bunch up like roaches a lot of the time).
Also, what about riot shields? Good protection for your splat gun/freeze foam/ grenade throwing man (launch weapons and throwing weapons aren't quickness related, so no layering penalty). Not much good if the team is clever enough to throw long, though.
Finally, I like having somebody delay an action once in a while just because he can. During a run on the Aztechnology pyramid (that went horribly wrong), one of the Azzies took a delayed action while his buddy threw out a grenade. Just out of reach. When the runner went out to grab it and throw it back he ate two bursts from an SMG. Really spoiled his throwing weapons roll, let me tell you.
Also, what about riot shields? Good protection for your splat gun/freeze foam/ grenade throwing man (launch weapons and throwing weapons aren't quickness related, so no layering penalty). Not much good if the team is clever enough to throw long, though.
Finally, I like having somebody delay an action once in a while just because he can. During a run on the Aztechnology pyramid (that went horribly wrong), one of the Azzies took a delayed action while his buddy threw out a grenade. Just out of reach. When the runner went out to grab it and throw it back he ate two bursts from an SMG. Really spoiled his throwing weapons roll, let me tell you.
indeed. stuff like that should be SOP for most combat units. in the ~8 hours we spent on grenade training, the thing that got drilled into us the most (besides "throw the grenade, drop the pin--not vice-versa") was to tell the rest of your team what you're doing. in a well-organized team, whenever one guy gets ready to throw a grenade, the guy who goes before him should lay down some suppressive fire, and the guy who goes after him should hold an action to pop a few rounds at anyone who tries to throw it back.
Physical Barrier spell is thus far the best way to counter grenades I've seen in my time playing Shadowrun, with tossing back comming in 2nd place.
First occasion I ever saw barrier and grenades used was for both offense and defense.
Our enemies (a group of hired mercs) were trying to off the group in a running gun battle through a burning hotel hallways, trying to avoid the heavy machinegun fire from around a corner the team shaman cast physical barrier at an angle that allowed us to bounce grenades off of it and down the hall/stairs at the mercs.
A few more halls later we come to the elevator, astral recon shows mercs comming up the elevator after us. Cast physcial barrier in front of the elevator door, door opens, mercs roll out grenades, grenades bounce right back in with them and the resulting chunky salsa effect of barrier and elevator walls means no more mercs (or elevator for that matter.)
Different run different chars. We're on the short end of a extraction run gone bad, in a gunfight with corp cops in a two story house. After seeing two grandes rolled into the room with me and the troll (who is currently trying to escape out the only window and blocking my mage's path of exit) He dual casts a physical barrier over each of the grenades absorbing the blast of one grenade and reducing the other to a power of only 4.
Same mage, different run cast barrier in front of the incomming grande, the chunky salsa effect again plays into this and channels the blast back at the thin walls the opponents are hiding behind giving them a little of their own heat.
As for throwing back, that has only been used four times (each of them successful, luckily I've never been witness to botched grenade re-toss). Once on a regular grenade, again with a tear gas grenade, an ungawdly lucky roll once with my char and a mini grenade, and most recently a karma re-roll with a regular grenade.
First occasion I ever saw barrier and grenades used was for both offense and defense.
Our enemies (a group of hired mercs) were trying to off the group in a running gun battle through a burning hotel hallways, trying to avoid the heavy machinegun fire from around a corner the team shaman cast physical barrier at an angle that allowed us to bounce grenades off of it and down the hall/stairs at the mercs.
A few more halls later we come to the elevator, astral recon shows mercs comming up the elevator after us. Cast physcial barrier in front of the elevator door, door opens, mercs roll out grenades, grenades bounce right back in with them and the resulting chunky salsa effect of barrier and elevator walls means no more mercs (or elevator for that matter.)
Different run different chars. We're on the short end of a extraction run gone bad, in a gunfight with corp cops in a two story house. After seeing two grandes rolled into the room with me and the troll (who is currently trying to escape out the only window and blocking my mage's path of exit) He dual casts a physical barrier over each of the grenades absorbing the blast of one grenade and reducing the other to a power of only 4.
Same mage, different run cast barrier in front of the incomming grande, the chunky salsa effect again plays into this and channels the blast back at the thin walls the opponents are hiding behind giving them a little of their own heat.
As for throwing back, that has only been used four times (each of them successful, luckily I've never been witness to botched grenade re-toss). Once on a regular grenade, again with a tear gas grenade, an ungawdly lucky roll once with my char and a mini grenade, and most recently a karma re-roll with a regular grenade.
It's far easier to redirect the blast, than to entirely contain it. If freeze foam only covers the near half of the grenade, most of the explosion will be directed away from the team, along with the shrapnel from that half of the grenade, and quite possible into the opponents' positions. It's the same reason you get the "Rocket Effect" with the dikoted chamber-pot idea.
As for an underslung solution: Freeze Glue filled paintballs anyone?
As for an underslung solution: Freeze Glue filled paintballs anyone?
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