Full Version: The Indestructable Leopard III
the Leopard III hard to stop if properly supported. if it's just some guy driving it around, well, the elemental-in-the-pilot-compartment scenario is wholly doable.
Indeed. Keep in mind that whoever put the ward there can allow people or things through it.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) | ||
According to R3 Aztlan puts railguns on light patrol vehicles. And then there's illusion magic. And sabotage. And then there is the eventual defeat of the ward and defense systems. And... oh, right, you were being facetious. |
If you're going to put Wards, might as well put Barriers. Illusions don't stand up to a good sensor pack. Sabotage has to defeat the armor rating. There was no way to defeat the Ward before, no need to worry about it now.
Yep, still being facetious.
Edit:
| QUOTE |
| If you're going to put Wards might as well put Barriers. |
Sure, why not. Barriers against what exactly? Obviously Bullet Barrier is a bit of a waste. Railgun Shell barrier is a bit of a waste as well, too specific. Of course, barriers also glow, but meh, it is a tank. Still, I'd know to hit it hard with something to knockdown the Barrier and then blast it with the railgun.
| QUOTE |
| Illusions don't stand up to a good sensor pack. |
Yes they do. Trid Phantasm is effects all senses that the caster can imagine (look at Vehicle Mask which affects Sig). And Confusion adds straight to all TNs within the domain.
| QUOTE |
| There was no way to defeat the Ward before, no need to worry about it now. |
I didn't say there was no way to beat the ward. Simply that it wasn't as easy as a single elemental.
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) | ||||||
Sure, why not. Barriers against what exactly? Obviously Bullet Barrier is a bit of a waste. Railgun Shell barrier is a bit of a waste as well, too specific. Of course, barriers also glow, but meh, it is a tank. Still, I'd know to hit it hard with something to knockdown the Barrier and then blast it with the railgun.
Yes they do. Trid Phantasm is effects all senses that the caster can imagine (look at Vehicle Mask which affects Sig). And Confusion adds straight to all TNs within the domain.
I didn't say there was no way to beat the ward. Simply that it wasn't as easy as a single elemental. |
I guess we have the answer then. Don't save up and get the Leopard III. It is far too easy to defeat.
Yeah, get two: it's the only way to be sure.
Or how about: use them in their intended role with proper support and they can be welcomed assets in the 2060 battlefield?
Or how about: use them in their intended role with proper support and they can be welcomed assets in the 2060 battlefield?
| QUOTE |
| Sabotage has to defeat the armor rating. |
Forgot this one. Depends: If you're using a shaped charge or such, then yes it does. Unless, of course, you happen to know the tank will be manned and plant a bomb inside the seat cushions... Which brings me to the point that sabotage isn't considered an attack by the rules. It's a B&R test to one degree or another, and while you might have to overcome barrier here or there and alarm systems, they have tools that will allow it to work.
Which raises a question: with the proper reference material and tools (no idea how they got there), could an Elemental default to Intelligence and dismantle a tank? I guess it also reraises that age old question of whether they can even read.
A spirit can not materialize inside a warded space it has not previousely visited.
A Great Form Elemental may be able to perform feats similar to the shape earth spell based on some of the examples of other types of elementals.
Does anyone think Denver had something similar to these on hand when Ghostwalker pranced through? Maybe rigger controlled ones so that it did not matter if the spirit was able to defeat the wards before triggering the release of the FABIII? Hey I thought the thread was slowing down.
A Great Form Elemental may be able to perform feats similar to the shape earth spell based on some of the examples of other types of elementals.
Does anyone think Denver had something similar to these on hand when Ghostwalker pranced through? Maybe rigger controlled ones so that it did not matter if the spirit was able to defeat the wards before triggering the release of the FABIII? Hey I thought the thread was slowing down.
well, the practical limit on commonly-used wards is going to be 7. most mages can expect to get at least 1-2 successes on a TN 7 test. 7 is pretty hefty, but three or four force 5 spirits will make short work of it due to friends in melee. now, those spirits would normally be opposed by enemy spirits... except that Ghostwalker is the spirit-summoningest mofo around; he probably ganked control of a lot of those enemy spirits--which, come to think, may well have had permission to pass those wards.
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
An elemental spell would have to be force 41 to affect a vehicle with 40 armor. I'd hate to have to soak that drain!  |
Just cast it at Light and don't bother putting any dice in drain resistance. Any decent sorcerer can stage it up a few times. A sorcer caipible of learning a force 41 spell can stage it up well past Deadly. A Light physical wound is a reasonable price to pay for taking down a tank.
The only problem is actually learning the spell at that force.
Or get a brainfailingthebiowarewhatshuntsapointofdamagetoStun and don't worry about the damage (or alternately be able to cast at Moderate).
~J
~J
A pain editor?
No, not that one. Trauma Damper, that was it.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| It doesn't also say that most TIR ghosts wear underwear but I'll wager they do. |
And here all this time, I thought they "went commando".
| QUOTE (grendel) |
| RPGs will not penetrate the armor on a modern MBT, which is designed to defeat shaped charge warheads on anti-tank missiles as well as kinetic penetrators fired from other tanks. As others have stated, though, tank treads remain vulnerable to man-portable weapons systems. This will grant you a mobility kill, but will in no way eliminate the tank as a threat to your forces. |
This may be true of the older RPG-7 warheads, but not necessarily true of all RPGs. The PG-7V/VM rockets only penetrate around 300mm RHS at 90 degrees, comparable to an M72 LAW. The newer warheads (PG-7VL/VR) claim 600-750mm penetration, which has been proved sufficient to penetrate the side hull armor of M1A1s and to knock them out.
Several of the heavier personal anti-tank weapons have equal penetration but better terminal effect through armor -- I'm sure you've seen the pictures of the Abrams that was penetrated from the side with one of the newer PG-7 warheads and knocked out, but with only a 1" diameter hole and very limited damage to the interior. I would not be surprised if an AT-4 penetrated the side hull armor of some MBTs.
Of course, this balance has been drastically changed in SR, where personal anti-armor rocket weaponry is not a threat to any armored military vehicle, including the lightest of the APCs.
Also note: Light Naval Guns and Light Railguns do not penetrate the Leo III.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| The only problem is actually learning the spell at that force. |
And hitting the target number which is 38 for the Leopard.
If it's a manipulation and not a combat spell the TN is 4, normal ranged combat modifiers apply...
Talking about TNs, the TN to learn a Force 41 spell is 82 -- 13 sixes and a 4 or more. Although you're more likely to get stuck trying to get the Force 41 Shamanic Lodge and Spell Formula, both of which have an Availability of 41.
| QUOTE (Crimson Jack) |
| Are these things all grounded so that electrical secondary effects won't hurt them? If not, elemental spell. Zark! |
Read up on Farradeyen (sp? The physics guy) cages and cars. No chance a magescum can affect a vehicle that way.
Birdy
| QUOTE (Crimson Jack) | ||||
I would. Creative thinking merits good results, especially considering the fact that no one in my PCs' group would have something that could stop that type of juggernaut. |
I would not. It's exactly this "let magescum get away with everything" attitude that pisses me off and turns the game to "Mages R us".
An order is a simple and clear command, not a complex string of orders. Tough luck maggie-boy, the tank just squished you!
Birdy
| QUOTE (Club) | ||
| I thought I remembered this: Fields of fire, the page that talks about the Great Dragon ATGM. Matador (RIP) comments that
In short, insanely tough vehicles are the norm. The standards of today get tossed out the window in 2034. MBT's should, by cannon, be Indestructable to small arms. Yeah, Hestaby can summon spirits that can batter down any ward a mere human can put up. Or a powerful human mage could make an astral smack pack and hope to get lucky Can a bushmaster AC hurt an Abrams? 'Cause I've always thought of an assault cannon of being a single-shot man-portable version. |
Actually it is another of the old SR problems. Since it lacks hit locations it is not really suited to modern combat. A typical way to get rid of a US Mobile bunker (aka M1) is to shove an AT projectile up his rear or kick him in the ribs. From the front current tanks are impenetrable by their own guns IRL.
Not that being hit is funny. According to guy who played "Sherman kicking" in WWII (Get together with some friends, see who kills the most Shermans with the least ammo) you can expect nosebleeds, concussions and similar problems.
On the other hand, if you really want to deal with tanks, get a good system and don't use one that can (barely) handle infantry combat.
Birdy
Well, we could houserule that from sides tank gets 2/3 armor and from rear 1/2.
Or something similar, reflecting RL and simple enough to calculate.
Or something similar, reflecting RL and simple enough to calculate.
M242 Bushmaster firing M792 High Explosive Incendiary-Tracer:
Projectile weight: 185 grams / 2,855 grains
Muzzle velocity: 1,100 meters per second / 3,609 feet per second
Muzzle energy: 111,979 Joules / 82,592 foot-pounds
M242 Bushmaster firing M791 APDS-Tracer:
Projectile weight: 134 grams / 2,068 grains
Muzzle velocity: 1,345 meters per second / 4,413 feet per second
Muzzle energy: 121,276 Joules / 89,449 foot-pounds
Compare with the most powerful shoulder-fired weapons in existence.
25x59mm Barrett XM109 Payload Rifle firing HE:
Projectile weight: 132 grams / 2,037 grains
Muzzle velocity: ~400 meters per second / ~1,300 feet per second
Muzzle energy: 10,367 Joules / 7,646 foot-pounds
.50 BMG M82A1 Barrett firing M962 Saboted Light Armor Piercing-Tracer:
Projectile weight: 23.3 grams / 360 grains
Muzzle velocity: 1,219 meters per second / 4,000 feet per second
Muzzle energy: 17,345 Joules / 12,793 foot-pounds
14.5x114mm PTRD anti-tank rifle firing Armor Piercing Incendiary:
Projectile weight: 64.2 grams / 990 grains
Muzzle velocity: 975 meters per second / 3,200 feet per second
Muzzle energy: 30,528 Joules / 22,516 foot-pounds
You'll notice that even the most powerful shoulder-fired weapons ever generate less than 1/4th the muzzle energy of the M242 chain gun. Unless you envision Assault Cannons as a weapon only trolls can fire, and only from the prone supported position, you'll need to slightly downtune them.
Projectile weight: 185 grams / 2,855 grains
Muzzle velocity: 1,100 meters per second / 3,609 feet per second
Muzzle energy: 111,979 Joules / 82,592 foot-pounds
M242 Bushmaster firing M791 APDS-Tracer:
Projectile weight: 134 grams / 2,068 grains
Muzzle velocity: 1,345 meters per second / 4,413 feet per second
Muzzle energy: 121,276 Joules / 89,449 foot-pounds
Compare with the most powerful shoulder-fired weapons in existence.
25x59mm Barrett XM109 Payload Rifle firing HE:
Projectile weight: 132 grams / 2,037 grains
Muzzle velocity: ~400 meters per second / ~1,300 feet per second
Muzzle energy: 10,367 Joules / 7,646 foot-pounds
.50 BMG M82A1 Barrett firing M962 Saboted Light Armor Piercing-Tracer:
Projectile weight: 23.3 grams / 360 grains
Muzzle velocity: 1,219 meters per second / 4,000 feet per second
Muzzle energy: 17,345 Joules / 12,793 foot-pounds
14.5x114mm PTRD anti-tank rifle firing Armor Piercing Incendiary:
Projectile weight: 64.2 grams / 990 grains
Muzzle velocity: 975 meters per second / 3,200 feet per second
Muzzle energy: 30,528 Joules / 22,516 foot-pounds
You'll notice that even the most powerful shoulder-fired weapons ever generate less than 1/4th the muzzle energy of the M242 chain gun. Unless you envision Assault Cannons as a weapon only trolls can fire, and only from the prone supported position, you'll need to slightly downtune them.
The ratio is probably closer to 10/4/2 or so...
Here's some estimtes for modern day tanks:
(mm RHA)
M1A2SEP
vs KE: Front 660 Side 440 Rear 115
vs HEAR: Fron 1430 Side 930 Rear: 115
Leopard 2A6
vs KE: Front 680 Side 500 Rear 115
vs HEAT: Front 1350 Side 1090 Rear: 115
Challenger 2
vs KE: Front 600 Side 410 Rear 115
vs HEAT: Front 1300 Side 890 Rear 115
T80U
vs KE: Front 500 Side 185 Rear 100
vs HEAT: Front 1050 Side: 185 Rear: 100
The western tanks have composite armor with significalty better protection from HEAT attacks. I think the Russian tanks still make do with reactive armor panels (why they don't have additional HEAT resistance from the sides).
Here's some penetration values for various smaller stuff:
SMAW 600mm
AT4 400mm
25mm cannon (Bradley) 70mm-40mm (Range Based)
40mm GL 50mm
RPG16 375mm
Garl Gustav 400mm
Most AT missiles will do from 800-1600mm, depending...
But the good ones can at least mission kill a tank from the front, at least some of the time.
So according to these values, you can tank out basically any tank with a LAW from the top/rear, but probably not take out a good tank from the side. You can always blow off a track though. The heavier stuff (SMAW) might be able to take out a tank from the side.
The 25mm canon won't even penetrate the rear armor of the tank.
Here's some estimtes for modern day tanks:
(mm RHA)
M1A2SEP
vs KE: Front 660 Side 440 Rear 115
vs HEAR: Fron 1430 Side 930 Rear: 115
Leopard 2A6
vs KE: Front 680 Side 500 Rear 115
vs HEAT: Front 1350 Side 1090 Rear: 115
Challenger 2
vs KE: Front 600 Side 410 Rear 115
vs HEAT: Front 1300 Side 890 Rear 115
T80U
vs KE: Front 500 Side 185 Rear 100
vs HEAT: Front 1050 Side: 185 Rear: 100
The western tanks have composite armor with significalty better protection from HEAT attacks. I think the Russian tanks still make do with reactive armor panels (why they don't have additional HEAT resistance from the sides).
Here's some penetration values for various smaller stuff:
SMAW 600mm
AT4 400mm
25mm cannon (Bradley) 70mm-40mm (Range Based)
40mm GL 50mm
RPG16 375mm
Garl Gustav 400mm
Most AT missiles will do from 800-1600mm, depending...
But the good ones can at least mission kill a tank from the front, at least some of the time.
So according to these values, you can tank out basically any tank with a LAW from the top/rear, but probably not take out a good tank from the side. You can always blow off a track though. The heavier stuff (SMAW) might be able to take out a tank from the side.
The 25mm canon won't even penetrate the rear armor of the tank.
| QUOTE |
| QUOTE Sabotage has to defeat the armor rating. Forgot this one. Depends: If you're using a shaped charge or such, then yes it does. Unless, of course, you happen to know the tank will be manned and plant a bomb inside the seat cushions... |
The seat cushions have 40 armor too, apparently, so why bother?
Well, if you stick a bomb under the seat, then you could probably rely on the chunky salsa effect to deal with the crew - I doubt the cockpit of a tank is a particularly large volume... 
| QUOTE |
| How about trying a called shot with a Panther Assault Cannon loaded with HE ammunition? Fired straight up the bore of the main gun, that is. The idea, of course, is to detonate the shell loaded into the gun. |
Negative. Check it out. Number one, the bore on a 120mm cannon is roughly as large in diameter as a softball. Now, you might be a pretty good marksman, but trying to shoot the equivalent of a rifle-styled baooka perfectly into this hole is one in a million. Unless you're Luke Skywalker. And that's assuming the tank is sitting still and you've spent time aiming. No way you could do this if the tank was moving.
Number two, our rounds for the M1A1, the Sabot and HEAT, are discharged by electrically ignited propellant. Only an electrical charge that breaks the seal on the aft cap will detonate it. Think of it like C-4. Yes, the round will still burn, but it will not explode. And also, the breech of the gun is sealed off from the crew compartment in the turret, designed like like that for just such a contingincy. If the round did explode, the crew would still survive, and so would the tank, it would just lose the use of it's main gun, and possibly the co-axial 7.62mm.
IIRC wards can't be moved.
| QUOTE (kevyn668) | ||
The seat cushions have 40 armor too, apparently, so why bother? |
Gee, maybe because the crew doesn't?
~J
Actually, seats do get their own armor, so the seat cushions don't have 40 armor. (Called Personal Armor in R3R I believe).
| QUOTE (Demosthenes) |
| Well, if you stick a bomb under the seat, then you could probably rely on the chunky salsa effect to deal with the crew - I doubt the cockpit of a tank is a particularly large volume... |
Esepcially if you make it a bomb in a box, with one side slightly weaker than the other sides...
Hmm, this might work to destory the tank as well....
How did that math go again, AE?
Hmm, this might work to destory the tank as well....
How did that math go again, AE?
Didn't check to see if this was already posted (there have been 3 pages added since I read it last night!).
Actually, I just realized how to kill it. I don't know what its body is, but crashing and ramming ignores armor. Slam several small drones into it, each one flying at maximum speed. You can take out any vehicle with a few small fast cheap drones.
Unless there's an erratta I'm missing?
Actually, I just realized how to kill it. I don't know what its body is, but crashing and ramming ignores armor. Slam several small drones into it, each one flying at maximum speed. You can take out any vehicle with a few small fast cheap drones.
Unless there's an erratta I'm missing?
Just take a called shot to ignore armor, what's so hard about that?
The raw F*cking stupidity of it? Its a TANK!
You stop tanks with other tanks, or much meaner aircraft. ! shipping missles anyone?
Ramming it wont work either, as its got a body of what, 12? Youd need to hit it with a large truck at rather high speeds to even slow it down.
You stop tanks with other tanks, or much meaner aircraft. ! shipping missles anyone?
Ramming it wont work either, as its got a body of what, 12? Youd need to hit it with a large truck at rather high speeds to even slow it down.
| QUOTE (Crusher Bob) |
| How did that math go again, AE? |
Like so.
That's assuming that the point of reference for the Power of a detonation is from the closest edge of the explosive charge. Otherwise you'd have to deal with sillyness such as a large charge of C-12 always being about 0.05-0.1 meters further away than you'd think, which could mean a difference of 1 or 2 for Power in nearly all uses of high-rating explosives.
The real problem is getting a Barrier Rating 314 - 316 box with a 0.25 x 0.25 x 0.25 meter internal space. If you can manage that, you get to enjoy the 316D, -12/m blast.
Apparantly my Sarcasm did not come through well. We need a sarcasm button. But as for the stupidity of what I said, sorry it doesn't exist.
No matter what you do to armor something (unless you are using neutronium) there are weak spots, and areas where there is substantially less coverage. Average Joe Shadowrunner might not know them, but with the proper background the unaverage one would.
Of course if your feeling really evil some LOX or LN sprayed on then a couple sharp blows will ruin anything's day.
No matter what you do to armor something (unless you are using neutronium) there are weak spots, and areas where there is substantially less coverage. Average Joe Shadowrunner might not know them, but with the proper background the unaverage one would.
Of course if your feeling really evil some LOX or LN sprayed on then a couple sharp blows will ruin anything's day.
| QUOTE (Lindt) |
| Ramming it wont work either, as its got a body of what, 12? Youd need to hit it with a large truck at rather high speeds to even slow it down. |
240 meters/turn ends up with 24D to be resisted by Mr. Tank with no armor.
~J
| QUOTE (Birdy) |
| An order is a simple and clear command, not a complex string of orders. |
i assume you've got a page number to back that up. actually, that's not true; i assume you don't, but i'm willing to listen if you find something relevant. "enter that tank from the metaplanes" is a bit complex, sure, but there's nothing in the books that i'm aware of that makes it an illegitimate command.
Heh... woops.
Prehaps, but your still going to, at BEST disable it, then you still have a railgun pointing at your head.
Prehaps, but your still going to, at BEST disable it, then you still have a railgun pointing at your head.
So, mfb, for an order I could do something like: "Wait at this warehouse for 2 hours, then go north as fast as you can for another 3. Dig for 2 hours, then come back, oh, and pick up some cheese fries on the way from this shop."?
Kage wins with the most easily accomplished way to take it out yet.
Kage wins with the most easily accomplished way to take it out yet.
| QUOTE (lorthazar) |
| No matter what you do to armor something (unless you are using neutronium) there are weak spots, and areas where there is substantially less coverage. Average Joe Shadowrunner might not know them, but with the proper background the unaverage one would. |
So, where do you suggest one should aim with a small arm if one wishes to neutralize a modern MBT with it?
| QUOTE (Lindt) |
| Ramming it wont work either, as its got a body of what, 12? Youd need to hit it with a large truck at rather high speeds to even slow it down. |
Unfortunately the high Body won't help the target of ramming much. The Leo would never, ever take any damage when it's the one doing the ramming, but as the target it's extremely vulnerable. 2 mini-rotodrones at 120 meters per CT are capable of destroying any MBT. The tank doesn't even get to evade the attack, and always suffers the full (Speed/10)DL with only Body and Control Pool dice. Which, of course, is utterly ridiculous, but there you have it.
[Edit]Me = Slow[/Edit]
| QUOTE (Lindt) |
| Heh... woops. Prehaps, but your still going to, at BEST disable it, then you still have a railgun pointing at your head. |
Disabled = it can't even fire its guns. Though, it runs perfectly fine until destroyed (CMC 6, it ignores serious wounds). Once "destroyed" though, passengers get damage from a crash check, and are ejected.
As soon as it hits seven boxes, all wound mods apply.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Tarantula) |
| Once "destroyed" though, passengers [...] are ejected. |
Say what? An MBT with an ejection system?
When a vehicle is destroyed, all passengers no longer occupy the vehicle. (I think, no book until late tonight).
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| As soon as it hits seven boxes, all wound mods apply. ~J |
Err, right. CMCs are always too expensive for me to bother with, and I almost never play sams...
Well if I was playing with QuickDraw I would (99.9%) be try to disable it after some gang stole it. So the best place would be to bonce some bullets inside trough the open hatches. Now if some professionals are in it. That still might be doable but it would take some set up to pull it off.
I still like the LOX or LN idea though.
I still like the LOX or LN idea though.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) | ||
240 meters/turn ends up with 24D to be resisted by Mr. Tank with no armor. ~J |
But only if you use the rules from Sr3. The 'advanced' rules from R3r seem MUCH more viable. Youd need to hit said tank with body 7 drone to do moderate damage.
| QUOTE (Tarantula @ Feb 9 2005, 10:38 AM) |
| Err, right. CMCs are always too expensive for me to bother with, and I almost never play sams... |
CMCs don't apply to sams
The cutting-out-after-overload is a feature unique to CMCs among all the damage compensation types, probably to balance out the fact that some vehicles can dodge on ridiculously low TNs in the right hands.
| QUOTE (Lindt) |
| But only if you use the rules from Sr3. The 'advanced' rules from R3r seem MUCH more viable. Youd need to hit said tank with body 7 drone to do moderate damage. |
So hit it with ten Body 0 drones.
~J
Kage I have disagreed with you in the past but I love this one. Big bad tank taken out by 10 hand size drones. That is just too good to rule away.
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