So, you're saying that no matter what your group came up with, there's no way to stop a tank? That seems a bit strange to me, but you're the one ruling on that one for your own game.

Take out a bridge that it's crossing or have a large elemental engulf it in water. Points being that there's always an Achille's Heel to everything juggernaut-ish. I suppose that its ultimately up to you, but when players start using their noggins to get through seemingly impossible scenarios, I applaud that. I don't see the point in making unstoppable elements in a game, unless you just want to kill your players off or railroad them in a game. Am I missing something here?

And no more X-ray spell.

Could you just go astral until you see the FAB and cast your spell? Can you target the FAB directly that way? If so, then send in the elementals. Or cast an AOE spell once you're back at your meat body.

No, I said "with mere firepower alone." Intelligent tactics may be able to find a way to hurt it, but they'll have to be more original than "send an elemental into it". Given how much it gets bandied about, you have to expect any armored vehicle worth its pricetag to also have some sort of defense against something so common.

BB: Unless the point of the run is to do exactly what you'd be avoiding in your scenario. Let's assume that the point is to destroy the tank, as the original post's idea taints us with.

---

Yes, firepower alone isn't enough to do jack to it, unless of course one understands that "firepower" also includes mojo power. The idea that there are elementals on standby to attack elementals that are trying to get inside of the tank is better than not allowing them entry at all. Saying that they can't appear where they are commanded to is a house rule, not a canon rule. Also, I'm no tank expert, but these things aren't hermetically sealed are they? Is there ever an opening from the bore to the interior at any point, say for gas or chemical attacks to be introduced?

Standard procedure for modern tanks is to seal them as much as possible, the pressurise the inside to slightly above one atmosphere, so the only diffusion taking place is gas leaving the tank. Currently air is filtered, but by 2060 I expect they have air regeneration systems they turn on before going into combat to turn it into a completely closed system.

Which brings up what mercenaries really have to watch out from shadowrunners: sabotage. I'm almost amazed at people running head-on against a tank with nothing more than an elemental and a panther cannon. Sneaking into an enemy camp and planting charges on the tanks and equipment to detonate during battle is more the way to go.

Opps?! Hahahahahahahahaha!!!! That's actually funny...

Read Frosty's first post. He asked a specific question regarding a PC getting his hands on the thing.

My solution is perfiectly viable. Since no one can produce a canon refernce to these things having FAB or Wards the elemental works just fine.

Edit: just in case no one got it, the elemental kills the people not the tank.

Unless you can provide a rule that says they typically don't then that makes it GM's provence either way. I don't think the issue is addressed at all.

As are nice, juicy bribes and some judicous blackmail.

Urm...Why do I have to?

He asked an abstract question about how to kill one of these if a PC got his hands on one.

But I believe there were elementals used against tanks in the canon description of when the TT bushwacked Cal-Free (or was it the other way around?). Something about Hestaby...

In short, insanely tough vehicles are the norm. The standards of today get tossed out the window in 2034. MBT's should, by cannon, be Indestructable to small arms.

Yeah, Hestaby can summon spirits that can batter down any ward a mere human can put up. Or a powerful human mage could make an astral smack pack and hope to get lucky


Can a bushmaster AC hurt an Abrams? 'Cause I've always thought of an assault cannon of being a single-shot man-portable version.

You don't have to. I provided an equally resonable counter to you method. Nor do I have to point to a canon mention to say it is a reasonable defense.

Sort of not really close enough: before Cal-Free used magic in their army and was proof that such counters were needed to fight Awakened armies.

Well, unless it states that the thing comes with FAB or a Ward...it doesn't. There are lots of pistols that don't state it comes with a SL.

Even a good group of runners does not hesitate to ward their vehicles. My group learned this the hard way a few years back. The rigger had a Ford Bison decked out with hardened armor and the group was taking cover inside from a ton of small arms fire. What they never expected was the earth elemental that was patrolling to materialize inside the cabin. At least one of them nearly died due to this blunder before a PhysAd successfully fought it off.

No, you provided a smartassed "opps" comment. That was out of context. Which is fine. Once you get past the "opps" it does make sense.

But since the description says nothing about FAB or Wards I see no reason to assume that those defenses are anything more than after market add ons.

Page reference?

Like I've said, it makes sense but there's nothing in print that say so.

YOU'RE WRONG IF YOU DON'T THINK I'M 100% SERIOUS ABOUT THE DRONE COMMENT. On topic and whatever.

Never said otherwise. Of course, the description doesn't include a crew either, so I assume it never has one.

We're obviously not talking about coming out of the factory with FAB or a ward, which is what all the descriptions of book vehicles represent.

We're talking about practical application. It doesn't also say that most TIR ghosts wear underwear but I'll wager they do.

You don't have to assume. Frosty asked about his PCs getting one. I assumed the rigger was in it. If not, the elemental trashes all of the controls and the tank sits there. Done. Maybe the PCs boosted the thing before it got to the FABing. I don't know, I was just trying to help.

Did you just call me dumb? Shame on you. You know that we DSers NEVER insult the person, just the idea.

I was answering the initial post. The thread (as always) drifted away from that.

In theory, the controls are covered by the armor or barrier ratings (and was the specified in the command?), but whatever.

What do you think I was trying to do?

Bear in mind, it doesn't "Come with" the railgun either.

Oh and there's no problem here with topic drift, this is good stuff.

Um, is so!

Controls come with armor?

Facinating.

So if I shoot the steering wheel of a City Master I have to overcome the armor? And that is which book?

You're going to call the shot to the steering wheel? Does the Power exceed double the Armor?

Where does it say that?

For this debate, yes.

You're asking me where it says vehicles are armored? On the contrary, if you want to tell me that some part of a vehicle isn't armored, you tell me where it says that.

~J

According to R3 Aztlan puts railguns on light patrol vehicles. And then there's illusion magic. And sabotage. And then there is the eventual defeat of the ward and defense systems. And... oh, right, you were being facetious.