A lot of people, myself included, have issues with (as I believe it was stated on another thread recently) the whole "Katanas come from Japan. Therefore Katanas are Cool. Therefore Katanas do more damage" setup.
I just had an epiphany on the subject, and you'd never believe where from - bloody D&D 3.5!
On the subject of the katana, they say "a katana is just a masterwork bastard sword". Ding!
So you want to shell out for a high-quality long/broad sword? Fine, use the katana stats. You bought your katana off the shelf at "Cutting Remarks"? Use the sword stats.
Th-th-that's all folks
Full Version: A Katana By An Other Name
Hehehehe.... I wonder what The Dodd would have to say on Katana's being the bestest swords in the whole wide world! 
A lot. Definitely a lot 
Or he'd just point you at the Knight vs Samurai essay on ARMA.
I still love the story about John taking his son to see A Knight's Tale. The swordfight scene comes on and this little voice pipes up clear as day "Dad? Dad? They're doing it wrong, Dad!"
Or he'd just point you at the Knight vs Samurai essay on ARMA.I still love the story about John taking his son to see A Knight's Tale. The swordfight scene comes on and this little voice pipes up clear as day "Dad? Dad? They're doing it wrong, Dad!"
LOL!
Lovely!
Is that the one with Richard Gear??
Thought the sword scenes looked good (whether or not they are correct im not that bothered)
Thought the sword scenes looked good (whether or not they are correct im not that bothered)
No, that was First Knight. Knight's Tale was the Heath Ledger movie that portrayed Jousting as the mediaeval WWF. A lot of people misunderstood why it used modern imagery and language and slated it, but it's actually a good and fun movie, with some surprisingly deep moments of personal integrity and good old-fashioned being a hero.
Ah yes the one where they sing we will rock you or some such so i was told. never grabbed me as one to watch.
That's the one.
Quickie explanation: Mediaeval slang would mean diddly-squat to thee and me. So rather than make a half-arsed attempt at it, the producers went for contemporary slang, behaviour and portrayals to convey the pseudo-rockstar status of jousters.
I'd rent it if I were you and make up your own mind. Me, I love it as a fun piece of fluff.
Quickie explanation: Mediaeval slang would mean diddly-squat to thee and me. So rather than make a half-arsed attempt at it, the producers went for contemporary slang, behaviour and portrayals to convey the pseudo-rockstar status of jousters.
I'd rent it if I were you and make up your own mind. Me, I love it as a fun piece of fluff.
A surprisingly good, watchable, entertaining film, depite my initial fears. Plus Paul Bettany is fantastic as Chaucer...
Unless I'm mistaken, in SR the katana is just a 2-handed sword.
A normal sword is listed as requiring 1 hand.
A katana is listed as requiring 2 hands.
The katana is listed has having +1 power over the normal sword.
The normal sword gets +1 power if used with 2 hands.
Seems pretty clear to me.
A normal sword is listed as requiring 1 hand.
A katana is listed as requiring 2 hands.
The katana is listed has having +1 power over the normal sword.
The normal sword gets +1 power if used with 2 hands.
Seems pretty clear to me.
Knight's tale is a fun movie to watch for a reasonably good example of courtly love.
| QUOTE (Lantzer) |
| Unless I'm mistaken, in SR the katana is just a 2-handed sword. A normal sword is listed as requiring 1 hand. A katana is listed as requiring 2 hands. The katana is listed has having +1 power over the normal sword. The normal sword gets +1 power if used with 2 hands. Seems pretty clear to me. |
Agreed. Using both hands in an attack with a sword would give you more power out of the strike compaired to one handed attack.
Though I'd be inclined to allow the katana to be used one-handed without penalty, because claiming that it's solely a two-handed sword is even sillier than claiming that it does extra damage because it's a katana.
~J
~J
*Sigh*
A Katana is a 1 handed sword. Yes, you could grip it with your other hand and smack things with it, but it was made to be used as part of a pair of single handed swords.
A No-dachi is a two handed Japanese sword.
A Katana is a 1 handed sword. Yes, you could grip it with your other hand and smack things with it, but it was made to be used as part of a pair of single handed swords.
A No-dachi is a two handed Japanese sword.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Though I'd be inclined to allow the katana to be used one-handed without penalty, because claiming that it's solely a two-handed sword is even sillier than claiming that it does extra damage because it's a katana. ~J |
It *can* be used one-handed, with a great deal of effort and training. The style of doing so wasn't developed until Musashi's time, pretty late, and really as a 'trick' for dueling. You'd certainly lose power and control compared to wielding it two handed - any weapon would. Find a bokken someday and try swinging it around one handed - not easy!
On the other hand, it's easier than trying to use a claymore or halberd one handed (which by the rules you can do). I'd reduce the penalty to power and target number to 1, and with training eliminate the target number penalty (so it's just -1 power).
As Lantzer said, the SR3 rules are pretty clear on the matter, and pretty accurate too.
| QUOTE (GentlemanLoser) |
| *Sigh* A Katana is a 1 handed sword. Yes, you could grip it with your other hand and smack things with it, but it was made to be used as part of a pair of single handed swords. |
Er, no. It was designed to be used in either one or both hands, and the vast majority of any training with it will be done using two hands. Musashi was exceptional for using two swords, not typical in the least.
~J
Heh. I stand corrected!
Don't mind us, we've probably had this argument at least half a dozen times each by now
~J
~J
I thought the dai-katana was basically a two-hander, because it was a few inches longer.
In either case, I'd go with a damn morningstar. Then who the hell needs skill.
In either case, I'd go with a damn morningstar. Then who the hell needs skill.
EDIT: Double Post
| QUOTE (Bigity) |
| I thought the dai-katana was basically a two-hander, because it was a few inches longer. In either case, I'd go with a damn morningstar. Then who the hell needs skill. |
The dai-katana was an invention of John Carmack for his D&D game.
~J
Well, I've seen it used in a novel as well, but it was decidely fiction, Lustbader I think. Written way before D&D 3rd.
And John Carmack was playing this game with Romero and others back before Doom came out, well before 3rd ed as well.
Not that it's a terribly inventive name, being the conflation of "big" and "sword". Independent development is entirely possible.
That being said there is a large two-handed sword, the Japanese equivalent of the Claymore or similar, though it's more than "a few inches" longer. I cannot, however, remember its name at the moment
~J
Not that it's a terribly inventive name, being the conflation of "big" and "sword". Independent development is entirely possible.
That being said there is a large two-handed sword, the Japanese equivalent of the Claymore or similar, though it's more than "a few inches" longer. I cannot, however, remember its name at the moment
~J
No Daichi, as Gentleman Loser mentioned earlier.
The No Daichi is definitely a two-handed sword.
The katana was usually a two handed sword, although I would say that that's less because of the weight and more because of the fighting style.
The No Daichi is definitely a two-handed sword.
The katana was usually a two handed sword, although I would say that that's less because of the weight and more because of the fighting style.
That was it, thanks.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Bigity) |
| Well, I've seen it used in a novel as well, but it was decidely fiction, Lustbader I think. Written way before D&D 3rd. |
The dai-katana was described in Eric van Lustbader's novel "The Ninja", a classic of 80's fiction - X-rated bodice-ripping action with superninja
. I believe Nicholas Linnear, the hero, chucks it into a lake at the end. And I am almost embarrassed I remember that kind of detail about it 
What Lustbader's qualifications are for realism in his novels I couldn't tell you. I was a hormonal teenager when I read the Linnear series and tend to remember the hot sex scenes
Pre-empting my double-post.
I was about to correct you on the end of that novel, but then realized that doing so would be admitting I had read it.
Oh, crap.
Anyway, isn't is no-dachi, not no-daichi?
Oh, crap.
Anyway, isn't is no-dachi, not no-daichi?
Oh I read them too, but I'm not proud. I just didn't, and mostly still don't, of any"legitimate" martial arts kinds of writers.
I believe both are correct.
Since we don't share an alphabet with the japanese, transliteration gets a lot of leeway. I have always pronounced it more as No Dachi, but have seen it spelled No Daichi more often than No Dachi.
Since we don't share an alphabet with the japanese, transliteration gets a lot of leeway. I have always pronounced it more as No Dachi, but have seen it spelled No Daichi more often than No Dachi.
You have a point, Bigity. I can't think of any "legitimate" martial arts fiction writers. On the other hand, this is Dumpshock, and if anyone can come up with something it'll be on here
Kinda why I threw it out there Dr.J
Uh... transliteration for a word like that is pretty non-ambiguous. There no difficult sounds in there at all. And those two words would pronounced very differently.
I think it's dachi. A quick search for "no daichi" turns up no swords.
I think it's dachi. A quick search for "no daichi" turns up no swords.
Try "no-dachi" plenty to find out there.
*shrugs* I guess it's No Dachi, then.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Though I'd be inclined to allow the katana to be used one-handed without penalty, because claiming that it's solely a two-handed sword is even sillier than claiming that it does extra damage because it's a katana. |
I allow the katana to be used one-handed without penalty, but I take away its extra Power point, which I presume comes from two-handed use.
That's probably a bad presumption, given that the bo staff gets the same bonus for no readily explicable reason, but I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt.
Bo staff gets an extra damage for being two-handed compared to what, a normal club?
Heres a justification, typically, for a club, you want something in the neighborhood of the length from your elbow to tips of fingers. For a bo, you want something a couple inches shorter than you are tall.
Heres a justification, typically, for a club, you want something in the neighborhood of the length from your elbow to tips of fingers. For a bo, you want something a couple inches shorter than you are tall.
As Kage said, katana are traditionally used two-handed. That's why the hilt is so long as compared to a broadsword or longsword.
You can use them one-handed, but you lose a little bit of the power and accuracy (unless you've trained with them one-handed for a long time, or just have some serious mad skill already).
Personally, I prefer katana simply because of the flow they attain when used properly and made well. You don't get that, usually, with a longsword.
You can use them one-handed, but you lose a little bit of the power and accuracy (unless you've trained with them one-handed for a long time, or just have some serious mad skill already).
Personally, I prefer katana simply because of the flow they attain when used properly and made well. You don't get that, usually, with a longsword.
'Dachi' in 'No-Dachi' is an evolution of 'Tachi', which is a classical term for 'sword' (as opposed to 'ken', which means 'blade'). Tachi fell out of use in favor of 'Katana' when people stopped hanging their swords via cords, edge down, and started stuffing them in obi, blade up.
| QUOTE (tanka) |
| Personally, I prefer katana simply because of the flow they attain when used properly and made well. You don't get that, usually, with a longsword. |
"Flow" is a product of technique.
A well-balanced western sword, even a large one, can attain a beauty and grace similar to the katana when wielded by someone who knows how to use it.
But again. That flow is the product of the swordsman's skill, not neccessarily anything intrinsic to the blade itself.
Frosty: True, however, a weapon based on a draw-cut, such as a katana will tend to have more continuous movement even through cuts.
A skilled swordsman using a straight blade such as a broadsword and using more straight cuts will appear more stacatto and not as "flowy", depending on how you're defining "flow"
Of course, assuming someone is warding with a broadsword rather than hollywood parries, it looks a lot more "flowy" by any definition.
Long story short, I think you're both using different definitions of "flow".
A skilled swordsman using a straight blade such as a broadsword and using more straight cuts will appear more stacatto and not as "flowy", depending on how you're defining "flow"
Of course, assuming someone is warding with a broadsword rather than hollywood parries, it looks a lot more "flowy" by any definition.
Long story short, I think you're both using different definitions of "flow".
I thought a Tachi was a ceremonial dress sword used by Lords and Shoguns, longer and more pretty? And yes, from what I heard, they were hung with the blade pointed down, like the rest of world would with a single edge sword.
As for Katanas themselves, real Katanas, not cheap reproductions, I'd say the added power should come from the sheer quality and balance of the sword, basically, like the D&D version said, like a Masterwork weapon.
If you use two hands I'd say you get more than just 1 point of Power added, maybe more like half your Strength added to the Power (round down). Using two hands gives you much more control and power over the blade. That would go for any blade, not just Katanas.
However, if you practiced and practiced you could take a one handed sword style benefit in the form of a specialization or maybe a special martial arts maneuver.
As for Katanas themselves, real Katanas, not cheap reproductions, I'd say the added power should come from the sheer quality and balance of the sword, basically, like the D&D version said, like a Masterwork weapon.
If you use two hands I'd say you get more than just 1 point of Power added, maybe more like half your Strength added to the Power (round down). Using two hands gives you much more control and power over the blade. That would go for any blade, not just Katanas.
However, if you practiced and practiced you could take a one handed sword style benefit in the form of a specialization or maybe a special martial arts maneuver.
Yes, maybe I am thinking of "flow" differently than tanka.
A well-made katana has tremendous cutting power (not as crazy as some movies and such would suggest) when used how it was designed. I have no problem with the +1 power.
Generally, unless my players seek out special instruction, I make them use it two-handed.
edit: Really, it's when players start wanting to dikote them that I get worried.
A well-made katana has tremendous cutting power (not as crazy as some movies and such would suggest) when used how it was designed. I have no problem with the +1 power.
Generally, unless my players seek out special instruction, I make them use it two-handed.
edit: Really, it's when players start wanting to dikote them that I get worried.
| QUOTE |
| I thought a Tachi was a ceremonial dress sword used by Lords and Shoguns, longer and more pretty? And yes, from what I heard, they were hung with the blade pointed down, like the rest of world would with a single edge sword. |
With regards to the Edo (and to some extent, the late Momoyama) period, that's quite true - the tachi that were generally 'out and about' were pretty much just for show. Since they were quite old, valuable, generally more flamboyant/gaudy in appearance, and less well-made than warfare katana, they tended to remain in the hands of those with the money and influence to posess one as a status symbol; to some extent, they were also a symbol of family status - I.E. 'The Nakatomi family has had this tachi since the reign of Emperor Go-Daigo! Aren't we cool?' From the Heian to Muromachi periods, tachi were pretty much the standard sword-type killing tool.
With regards to the design, tachi lengths could vary quite widely; they tended to have a slightly more pronounced curve (and hence, longer total cutting-surface length but similar length with regards to effective 'height' - although, again, that varies from place to place).
I wish I could give you more detail on why they stopped using them or social status of those posessing them in post-Muromachi Japan, but really, I have no idea. I tend to focus on the Heian and Ashikaga periods.
| QUOTE |
| If you use two hands I'd say you get more than just 1 point of Power added, maybe more like half your Strength added to the Power (round down). Using two hands gives you much more control and power over the blade. That would go for any blade, not just Katanas. |
I still intend to make a fencing adept who uses an estoc, at some point. Noting like a four foot metal awl to make someone's day suck.
| QUOTE (Tarantula) |
| Bo staff gets an extra damage for being two-handed compared to what, a normal club? |
No, the bo staff gets an extra point of Power compared to the staff.
It's the two extra letters. They're nasty, I tell you.
~J
~J
you know, they used to test bo staves by seeing how many criminals' corpses a warrior could shove the point through at one time. the best bo staves were made of wood which had been folded upwards of 1,000 times.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| you know, they used to test bo staves by seeing how many criminals' corpses a warrior could shove the point through at one time. the best bo staves were made of wood which had been folded upwards of 1,000 times. |
this is that monomolecular wood you were talkin' about, then.
buckytubefruit trees.
Ahh.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.