Nah, it's because the Japanese have much better wood and the crafters really took pride in finding just the right stick to stick a cap on each end and make it super bad-ass.

The really good ones would crack a skull if you just held the staff out and dropped a head on it.

Remember, SR was started in the 80s, when everyone was terrified of the Japanese economy and predicted that Japan would take over the world due to its inscruitable and all powerful "asian values".

For this reason, "It's Japanese, therefore it's better" is perfectly acceptable in the context of Shadowrun. Think of the katana as a symbolic representation of 1980s "asian values" shtick slicing apart the self-esteem of us westerners.

Wow, I feel like I need to be laying on a couch and paying you 200 an hour for this bit of information.

You're thinking of a Jo, which is a training weapon designed to emulate a sword. The Bo is really just a japanese staff (but, as we know from shadowrun, it's made out of uber-wood).

A katana is a bastard sword, designed for use with either one or two hands.

JaronK

Calling a katana a bastard sword is not entirely accurate, since thrusts are an important part of the use of a bastard sword, whereas the katana relies almost entirely on its edge. But they are both 'hand-and-a-half' swords.

A bo is usually about your height, within a couple of inches. Bo staves are usually around 1inch thick in the middle and taper down to 3/4inch or 1/2 inch diameter at the ends.

Staves are usually 1 1/2-2 inches diameter in the middle, tapering down to 1 inch on the ends, or just a solid 1 inch the entire length.

Jo Staves are typically 4 feet, of about 1 inch along the length, and not made to emulate a sword. They are considerably more mobile than a bo staff or regular staff, faster, but have less power due to less speed on the ends when striking.

Bo staves do more damage because you have an increased amount of pressure on the ends when you strike with it. Also, because of the tapering, they are considerably lighter and can be brought to faster speeds when striking than a regular staff. Just like when fighting with an escrima stick (rattan) speed of the tip of the weapon is where you get your power. Bo's are considerably faster than staves, as well as having a smaller tip, providing better damage.

BTW, if you don't think that much wood matters, go find a martial arts supply store, pick up a staff (1inch the whole length, or 1-1/2 taper down to 1) and pick up a bo (1 inch middle taper down to 1/2 inch) and tell me the bo isn't considerably lighter.

Unfortunately, as wrong as Katana-Are-Lightsabers is, the internet reactionary Katana-Are-No-Better-Than-European-Swords view is equally sophomoric and in many ways more annoying becase it weighs itself down with pretention.

This is wrong.

Japanese metallurgy was, for a very long time, arguably more advanced than what Europeans had access to (let's leave the Moslem/Arabic traditions out of this, for now). However, the Japanese had far worse natural ore deposits, which is why, despite all smithing skill, they were never able to manufacture their own rifles after trading with the Portugese and Dutch; thus, during the Sengoku Jidai, trading groups were allowed to stick around (aftewrads, things got more— or, perhaps, arguably less— complicated, politically). This is not an issue of metallurgy skill; it is purely an issue of natural resources, and it caused big problems for lots of people well into the last century.

None of this has anything to do with the myth of katana being armor piercing. Katana were armor piercing, in effect, against the armor they were used against, which was almost never full plate mail (though some of this stuff does show up during and after the Sengoku Jidai period). Against soft armor made of bamboo and leather, a solid hit would do rather unpleasant things; adding metal to the mix, which was far more common than is popularly known, was only of limited effectiveness, since a blade could fairly easily just slide along the metal until it hit something easier to cut through, such as bamboo, leather, or unlucky samurai.

Knights in later years (14th-15th century and onwards) did use progressively heavier suits of armor, however this was in many ways because the knights that didn't often got punched full of holes from the introduction of firearms. Yes, slashing weapons essentially become impotent against full suits of heavy plate, however these suits were often never intended for hand to hand combat. You'll notice on late 16th century suits of armor, ridiculously heavy plate ruled the day, but lower legs were often not as armored because cavalry charges through masses of peasant soldiers had given way significantly to open fights with other knights, usually starting with a lot of artillery and pistol volleys.

Maces and hammers did show up, however they were not, as yo usuggest, the weapons of choice for most knights. Further along, melee weapons of choice became more and more specialized for armor penetration (beaked hammers, bec-de-corbins, etc). This is a big subject in and of itself.

Your statement on sabers being only slightly different from katana is essentially wrong in almost every important respect. They were heavier, shorter, one handed, curved very differently, and not used with at all the same movements or style. In The Last Samurai, when Algren (Cruise's character) first picks up a bokken, he actually attempts to use it with saber movements, and if you're familiar with the styles, you'll pick up quickly on why this does not work out very well for him. Suffice to say a hell of a lot more could be written on this.

What I really want to dispell here, since most people already do a good job of dispatching the Katana-Lightsaber crowd, is get rid of the equally ridiculous Oh-Folded-Toledo-Steel-Was-Just-As-Good-As-Katana-As-Good-As-A-Bastard-Sword. Neither of these is at all correct, and the realities of the differences between Eastern and Western weaponmaking are generally far more complex than most such silly internet debates ever sufficiently acknowledge.

Remember, kids: the best samurai were folded over 30,000 times and were immortal but there's only one now because he's from Scotland and all the other ones fell through the Earth when they took off their shoes.

I was refering to the exact definition of a bastard sword, namely a sword which is designed for use with either one hand or with two. The standard European bastard sword is obviously different from the japanese bastard sword, though.

JaronK

You've been registered here longer than I have, and you're only now recognizing this? It's kind of the Dumpshock raison d'être.

Welcome to the 'Shock. Your Dikoted AVS Ally Spirit is on the way. You may have sex with it if you so choose.

Seriously, relax. Say what you think. Its okay.

Thanks for the welcome, my only question is does that bright and shiny DAVSAS™ come with a complementary monowhip weapon focus?

My wording was perhaps a bit off. The fear is not of opening my mouth (even if nothing useful come out), but more of a realization that there are certain subjects which people need to agree to disagree on. That being said, many times people won't come to that understanding and will continue to argue against a brick wall (which is doing much the same). Upon reading some of the posts in said thread, I wagered a guess that it was one of those times.

Of course, the plethora of comments in thread about "Oh god! Not another imp inv discussion" helps speed that thought process along.

All in all, I've very much enjoyed what I've read and hope to be able to contribute interesting material.

Be careful about those brick walls. Some people believe that they don't block LOS.

Yes, there is, and it's called a Katana. Just like the Bo was a Japanese staff, and I suppose the No Dachi would be the Japanese version of a halberd.

I was just saying that the weapons were made to be useable in one hand or two, which means they're a bastard sword. They're not the same as the European model, which was heavier and usually blunter, designed to be able to smash against full plate without shattering.

JaronK

Erm...



A Katana is a hand-and-a-half sword.
A Bastard sword is also a hand-and-a-half sword.
This does not necessarily mean that all katanas are bastard swords.
The differences between the two swords start with appearance, and continue with use and technique. I'm not getting into the armour argument...

A Halberd is a polearm. It is superficially (very superficially iirc) similar to the naginata, which is also a polearm.

A No-dachi is closer to a two-handed sword, though still lighter than a nice Lanzenknecht's Langschwert...

Now, if you dikoted a Naginata...

As it was mentioned in the original post however, the katana = bastard sword manufactured to higher levels of craftsmanship concept originated out of the D20 system, and for its level of detail in abstracting weapon qualities into abstract statistics, the equivalence is not only appropriate, it's one of the best tabletop RPG treatments of the whole western sword vs. eastern sword issue that I've seen.

Quite right.

I was just adressing the question of terminology outside the Other Game ™ definitions.

As to GentlemanLoser's comments...the word Claymore originates in the Scots gaelic equivalent of Claidheamh More (I speak Irish gaelic, which is slightly different, but overall very, very similar), which literally means "Big sword"...

Sorry, I was getting sleepy. I meant Naginata, but somehow No-dachi came out.

What I meant with the Katana/Bastard Sword thing is that, if a European of the middle ages saw a katana in use, but didn't know what it was called, he'd call it a bastard sword (though a funny looking one that wasn't used right).

*sigh*

Anyway, they're both hand and a half swords, one's the European version, the other is the Japanese version. Obviously, they look different, had different roles, were used differently, etc.

JaronK

A bo is a type of staff. Not all staves are bos. Just wanted to make that clear.

His sex scenes were *ridiculous*. They were so stupid I couldn't stop laughing. My goodness, I read Lustbaeder in the library just to snigger at the ninja shtick.