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Demonseed Elite
I'll soon have a website where I'll be posting various ruminations on Shadowrun ideas (among many other things) but for now I thought I'd kick off another one here.

California.

Assuming California doesn't sit in a long period of status quo (and it's hard for me to imagine it would), it has the potential for rapid and chaotic change. What sorts of ideas and brainstorming do you get when thinking about what could become of SR California?

My own brainstorming tends to see 2060s California as sort of the Balkans of North America. A place of shifting borders, warlord governments, and extreme political activism. But much like Lebanon during its 1975-1990 civil war, California is not a poor area of the world, and benefits greatly from a wealthy and intellectual class. I imagine a complex and ever-changing web of extreme political organizations backed by corporate or national powers. Saito's regime would be an example of this, but I don't see his regime having a lasting power, especially if his corporate backers become distracted elsewhere, and I could imagine a new "face" establishing power in the region, as well as in other regions of California (such as the Pueblo in Los Angeles).
DrJest
You know what the California situation makes me think of? Risk. You know, the boardgame.

If you've ever played the big, multiplayer Risk games, you know that there's a kind of chaotic status quo goes on. Bear with me, this does make sense. It's like, Player A grabs one territory off Player B; B does the same to C; C to D, D to E, then E does it to A, and everybody's back where they started just one move over to the left.

Tanka
It becomes CalFree and eventually ends up being ruled by a split-off ex-military Japanese man.

No, really. Read California Free State.
Demonseed Elite
Hah, I agree there. When I said "status quo", I meant pretty much that the structure that exists now doesn't change, as opposed to the idea that it could remain in a sort of chaotic status quo (which is very possible). And I think the Risk analogy is pretty appropriate, since given the resources and wealth available in California (what, it's the world's 7th largest economy right now, by itself?) it makes it a tempting target for many, many powerful entities.

Tanka, I know that part. I'm talking about "what's next?" nyahnyah.gif
Tanka
Either the real Japanese fleet comes and kicks Saito's ass or Saito continues his reign, slowly gaining territory with the parts of CalFree that are ignoring him.
Demonseed Elite
I don't really see the Japanese fleet coming in. Japan, courtesy of Halley's Comet, has its own very significant problems to deal with. And given that the new Japanese emperor isn't as directly in the back pocket of the megacorporations as the past ones have been, I see Japan's motivation to return to California as fairly weak in the near future.

I also don't really see Saito's regime lasting. As has been pointed out often on this board here, Saito's forces are spread pretty thin and he's starting to run into problems (like the "runner army" foiling his actions in Chico-Oroville mentioned in SOTA:64). Like the Balkans analogy, I tend to see Saito as someone who rose to power quickly, maintained power through strict control and military influence for awhile, and eventually falls apart, likely to be replaced with the next most powerful bloc.
Eyeless Blond
I just want to see someone give Tir Tangrine a swift kick in the face. I just finished reading through the sourcebook, and the whole country's origin story sounds so much like a Mary Sue fanfic that I just want to rip it out by the throat and set it on fire.

I also find it odd and stupid that a state with three of the biggest ports in the western himisphere and one of the largest economies in the world didn't have a navy to speak of, and couldn't manage to raise their own army when the UCAS screwed them over, but that part's at least palatable.

Anyway, other than those tiny little objections, I love the California region in SR, for the exact reason you describe. Even more than that, though, I happen to love the People's University of Berkeley (and not just because I graduated from UC Berkeley smile.gif). Sure, you have constantly shifting power players and territories, which is all well and good, but so few places in SR have the little guy fighting back and actually making a difference. It's great to see something like that.
DrJest
Tir Tairngire. Mary Sue. AHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHHAA!

Cheers, EB, that image is going to stay with me for ages.

Of course, given the prediliction of most Mary Sue fanfic, that begs the question - who's gonna get shagged?
Eyeless Blond
I dunno, but Calfree, the UCAS, the NAN, and basically everyone around Tir got themselved screwed. The comm grid I can kinda deal with; the political structure and government rising out of thin air makes sense when you realise that there are a few immortal elves running the show, but how the heck did the elves manage to build up an entire techno-magical army without anyone noticing? Hell, you can't even build a terrorist cell or kill a few dozen people without someone hearing about it and reporting it on the news; how the heck do you train tens of thousands of people into an army that fast without *someone* doing anything to stop you?
Demonseed Elite
Well, to be fair, as far as the comparison with terrorist cells, that's not exactly true. I mean, look at Al Qaeda, which basically built itself up over a number of years without anyone doing much of anything serious to stop it. It had been reported on, but was considered of little significance to just about everyone until September 11th, 2001.

Though the Tir military is definitely on a different level. I tend to think it was less that the army was built without anyones' knowledge and more that there wasn't much that could be done about it, at least not on any substantial level. Stopping nations from building armies is hard, especially if you're not willing to totally commit yourself to the effort.
TeOdio
Don't forget about Silicon Valley. Ares might try to set up their own little fiefdom (more openly) and agitate Saito's forces. Silicon valley would be a nice feather in CatCo or say Mitsuhama's cap. That could lead to an actual military clash between Ares Arms and Saito's forces with some gentle nudging by Seraphim agents or Yak pressure.
nuyen.gif nuyen.gif nuyen.gif
Critias
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
I just want to see someone give Tir Tangrine a swift kick in the face.

You, uhh, you know the Tir's gotten a few good face-kicks, don't you? They're sort of in the middle of doing it to themselves right this second, in fact.
Kagetenshi
My personal vote is that the place continue to devolve into anarchy as the establishments duke it out, the Northern Crescent folk begin a campaign to slaughter all Elves (and metahumans in general), Saitoh reigns supreme for a few years until he is utterly smashed through overextension, and the entire place becomes a wasteland.

~J
Eyeless Blond
Nah, that's how Southern California should become. With Peublo coming from the east and the Aztecs from the south, combined with whatever the heck's going on in the desert (which should be slowly taking over parts of LA) I can easily see that whole region dissolving into chaos.

I honestly don't see northern California getting all anti-metahuman, mostly to piss off Saito. I *do* see them being primarily anti-elf, though, and keeping their anti-corporate outlook on things too. Saito's days are numbered, I agree, and when he finally goes down the Bay's gonna be a real interesting place, as everyone around tries to gobble up the Berkeley/Oakland/Walnut Creek areas, with the Japanicorps trying to do damage control in Frisco.
Kagetenshi
They're already very anti-Elf and nontrivially anti-meta in many places.

~J
hahnsoo
I envision Saito overextending himself, then having to fall back and consolidate his power around San Francisco. The Tir/California problem is problematic, with Hestaby smack in the middle of it all... Maybe the more progressive members of the Tir influence it to do something unusual: They engage in peaceful free trade to solve their economic difficulties. Is that too hard to ask? smile.gif I can see them doing coastal trades with LA/PCC, with the pirates (YAR!) raiding their shipments every once in a while.

Or perhaps the Tir decides to help out the resistance, and eventually forms a Metahuman Nation that they consider a colony, where they ship off all their undesirables (i.e. the poor, the non-elves) in the spirit of enterprise ("Go West, young man"). It can lead to some interesting "Europe/American Colony"-like interactions.

As far as corporations, there are several corporate strongholds throughout southern California along the Mojave desert, not much more than military bases. I can see those turning into City-States. Meanwhile, water-running is still important, especially SoCal.

Ute Nation probably has something to say about all this chaos... they've been rather "quiet" as a CalFree neighbor.

Since most of the southeast border of California is the Mojave desert, I'm wondering if any trouble will start up from there. Maybe the Anasazi and other tribes band together to try to form their own nation out of the lands of SoCal.

And I doubt the PCC will be able to hold onto LA for long. Unless they brew up a war with Aztlan.
mfb
nocal was anti-meta already. back when Saito was still just a colonel, Chico-Oroville was as bad as San Fran for anti-meta sentiment. nowadays they're eating a lot of crow, since they just got their asses saved by a bunch of metahuman runners ("every runner in the northwest" is bound to include quite a few).

you know what would be fun? if cali sparked off a big national war.
Crimsondude 2.0
Or if someone rose to power who could mobilize a truly national army.
Bigity
Speaking of Saito, was he the original second-in-command of the Japanese forces in San Fran?

Or just the commander who stayed behind? I know there is reference to some elf that kills the original CO, but how far down the ladder was Saito before the Japanese pull-out?

I'm guessing he was just a mid-level officer with no chance of advancement, hence the break from Japan.
mfb
he was a colonel, as i recall. in the US, colonels are usually in charge of anywhere from 500 to 1000 troops, if they're in a command slot, or they're XO to a general. i'd estimate that there might have been two other Japanese colonels in San Fran. he wasn't second in command, probably, but he was pretty damn high up on the ladder.
Kagetenshi
Really? I'd thought he was mid-high, but nothing terribly exciting.

~J
Bigity
Yup, sounds about right.

The jump from full-bird to general is still pretty damn big though, and alot of colonels never make it.
Crimsondude 2.0
Well, IIRC he was the highest-ranking officer still around at the time.

And he made himself the Protector-General of California.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Mar 8 2005, 09:31 AM)
I'll soon have a website where I'll be posting various ruminations on Shadowrun ideas (among many other things) but for now I thought I'd kick off another one here.

California.

Assuming California doesn't sit in a long period of status quo (and it's hard for me to imagine it would), it has the potential for rapid and chaotic change.  What sorts of ideas and brainstorming do you get when thinking about what could become of SR California? 

My own brainstorming tends to see 2060s California as sort of the Balkans of North America.  A place of shifting borders, warlord governments, and extreme political activism.  But much like Lebanon during its 1975-1990 civil war, California is not a poor area of the world, and benefits greatly from a wealthy and intellectual class.  I imagine a complex and ever-changing web of extreme political organizations backed by corporate or national powers.  Saito's regime would be an example of this, but I don't see his regime having a lasting power, especially if his corporate backers become distracted elsewhere, and I could imagine a new "face" establishing power in the region, as well as in other regions of California (such as the Pueblo in Los Angeles).

The problem is that reading CFS (which I would NOT recommend) one does not get the impression about how powerful or important California should be. By all rights, they should be able to sustain themselves as a sovereign nation for various reasons, one of them being, as you mentioned, that California has a larger economy than most countries.

Anyway, I don't think that any of the megas or its neigbors are going to let California (BTW, were Dowd, et al. so high they couldn't think to call it the California Republic?) devolve into a balkanized patchwork of free cities and states that can't be cohesively controlled. One of these problems is that, IIRC, Saito doesn't control the entire Central Valley, which is the heart of California's not-too-small agricultural economy, and one of the few things keeping it controlled is Yakashima's and a few other Japanacorps' presence throughout.

My other thought is that one should not underestimate the ability of the PCC to control Los Angeles, mainly through the same types of forces (corps) who are solely responsible for Saito's continued control of the Protectorate. The corps in power have an interest in not having to face the threat of the masses while they are still vlunerable post-Quake (although given the last major quake in L.A., the Walls should have been back up by 2064), as well as the fact that Pueblo has more economically at-stake now that it owns Amalgamated Studios. I don't see any reason for the corps in Studio City and Arcology Mile to want the Pueblos to leave. Given their track record at home, it would be in their best interests financially to have an administrative body in L.A. capable of developing the economy and reducing the long-term reliance of 80 years of neo-feudalist armed camps in L.A. If I read my map correctly, the Pueblos also now have control of Imperial Valley, and can make it as economically viable as it is today with a combination of more water from the Colorado river (The Imperial Valley sucks up more water than it needs or deserves as it is, so any change when PCC rolled in would be for their best given the likelihood that Pueblo cut back their allotment a great deal), genetech, and the fact that the Pueblos wouldn't be growing friggin' rice in the middle of the desert.

One of the major difficulties has been in securing the Mojave. I see this as something that will come to a head sooner or later, even if it means cutting further deals with the corps around Barstow (Oh, if you're going to address Cal, there is more to Barstow than the bullshit flung at readers in CFS) to kill every last Anasazi (posers) and U.S. holdout left in the area.

Given the difficulties in the Ute Nation (which DE is more than acutely aware of), and some of the speculation surrounding certain figures in Pueblo, it'd be interesting to see what the Utes makes of a major Pueblo offensive so near their borders. It's not like Ute and Pueblo haven't gone at it before, and something tells me that the best thing for both sides would be to let them have at it and see what happens to both, and California, when the fallout clears. One of the great items of interest would be to see who would react from the rest of the NAN, especially the Navajo who are (for no good reason [Thanks Nigel]) in Sioux, and who might take a personal interest in seeing a region carved of of both countries (and the Sioux, since the Navajo were displaced about 300 miles from where the Nation currently sits according to the terms of one treaty I read).

Finally, the one major area of interest is the great middle between PCC and the Protectorate. With the events to the north and south, they are of the greatest likelihood to forego both sides and declare themselves independent of both (Hey, there's the California Republic).
hermit
You all forget one very important player in CalFree:

Hestaby.

I would expect everyone's favourite orange dragon lady to do more than sit by idly while the land around her devolved into anarchy. In fact, I would expect her to partake actively in that effort, supporting whatever faction will sell themselves to her in exchange for having a Great fight on their side. And who could that be? My money would be on the many (and disorgainsed) metahuman cells. Not only do then not have much power themselves (and thus are in a very weak negotiating position), helping them against Saito and the NC folks would also further Hestaby's image as a champion of the week, poor, tusked and pointy-eared.

As for a big war over the spoils of california ... maybe something like what is, IRL, going on in the Democratic Republic of Congo? With the country basically having no government to speak of, and a lot of nice things open for grabs, all neigbhbours might feel tempted to grab a bite. Not Tir, maybe, since Hestaby can always veto their plans in the council, but I'd expect Aztlan to make a move on LA (getting itself into a war with Pueblo, but with their recent setbacks, I bet the Azzie generals are very keen to get a success, if only to not appear like a sitting duck themselves). Also, Pueblo will not only defend themselves against the Azzies, but might feel tempted to move northwards too, in case someone is nice enough to squash Saito. Ute, seeing everyone seems to get a piece of California, might want to grab some for themselves, too. Maybe they'll support Pueblo against Aztlan, in exchange for territorry. Hell, maybe even Sioux will join with them. Simbabwe did send troops to the DRC, too, and they don't have a common border either!

The UCAS might team up with Ares, the CAS and send "peacekeepers" to the region when Saito collapses. The UCAS and CAS aren't the US, but they can still bite, and Ares backing them would certainly make them a force Saito cannot dispose of easily. Of course, Japan's Megas are backing Saito, but maybe some settlement can be negotiated, something along the lines of a free trade zone in SanFran. And then ... sayonara, Saito-san.

Whom I don't see joining is the SSC (busy with Tshimshian), Tshimshian (busy with SSC), Algokintan and Athabascan, and TPA. But that's it.

California could become a pan-American war. More than the balance of power within California could shift then.

I kind of have a feeling this could become very, very big.
Cynic project
As I recall 90% of Califonians live either in the bay area or LA. So as it stand the only real city not in the city that is not in control of hostile forces would be Fresno( And maybe San Jose).

LA, plus the PCC, seem to have had a large dent in the populace of LA.

But the way I see it, Ares is playing defensive and waiting for it forces to be hit hard enough to justify a counter strike. Also who knows what other players in the feild may want. I mean if the CAS got a hold of the pay area, they could become a power in the pasfic, also think of the smear that would leave on the UCAs. Yea, that's right the CAS ia reforming the US, wile you still lost your back bone to those canukes... Or just about any of the AAA's could be a white knight. Well, less likely for either big A or the japs. Then you can look at the PPG. Aren't they out to smack Japan from it's thrown?

But basically I look at Saito,and I see a long list of enemies and so many reasons why he would be outstood.

But really what powers n the world of shadowrun really want Saito in charge? And what ones have the resources to really help?
Kagetenshi
I'll take Japanacorps for ¥800. With three of the Big Ten, they're certainly in a position to help bigtime.

~J
hermit
QUOTE
I'll take Japanacorps for ¥800. With three of the Big Ten, they're certainly in a position to help bigtime.

But will they really want to pay the massive amounts of money wars always cost, or would they mabe just go for a settlement with whoever looks like coming out on top instead?
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (hermit)
I would expect everyone's favourite orange dragon lady to do more than sit by idly while the land around her devolved into anarchy. In fact, I would expect her to partake actively in that effort, supporting whatever faction will sell themselves to her in exchange for having a Great fight on their side. And who could that be? My money would be on the many (and disorgainsed) metahuman cells. Not only do then not have much power themselves (and thus are in a very weak negotiating position), helping them against Saito and the NC folks would also further Hestaby's image as a champion of the week, poor, tusked and pointy-eared.

The country is not devolving into anarchy. It is a state of low-intensity conflict, but hardly anarchy.

Moreover, Masaru is the champion of the weak, poor, and meta. Hestaby's just another GD trying to grasp control of her immediate sphere of influence.

QUOTE

As for a big war over the spoils of california ... maybe something like what is, IRL, going on in the Democratic Republic of Congo? ...

California could become a pan-American war. More than the balance of power within California could shift then.

Never going to happen. The corps won't let it. Their neighbors aren't willing to commit, and it took a rogue AI for the UCAS to send JTF Seattle across the continent without sparking a war with the NAN. Everything is going to be... tense, but not explosive.

Actually, San Diego is the second-largest city. There are a ton of things wrong with the Free City of L.A., but unfortunately I lost my bigass post. But it's off-topic.

Anyway, Saito has plenty of help from the Japanacorps and various interests who see him as keeping several interested parties busy--Ares, TT, Hestaby, the NAN, various factions in California. He serves, at the least, to be a distraction for a lot of people who would otherwise be at each other's throats, at the Japs', or both.
hermit
QUOTE
Moreover, Masaru is the champion of the weak, poor, and meta. Hestaby's just another GD trying to grasp control of her immediate sphere of influence.

DotSW says otherwise. Read the game information on Hestaby's goals.

And with Saito going down, the NC and the metas on a rampage, and possibly an Aztlan/Pueblo conflict, California's there's a balkans-style morass.
Crimsondude 2.0
Saito's not going anywhere.

Your entire thesis relies on a premise which has not been proven to be even remotely true that Saito is actually losing control.

Losing the first battle of COGMA isn't proof he's coming apart at the seams. And until I see otherwise, I see no reason to continue this discussion along that particular premise.

Anyway, DotSW says one of her goals is, "support the rights of metahumans" (193). That doesn't immediately make her The Great Orange Hope for metahumanity. Support is, in my eyes, nothing other than moving in position to stab you in the back.
Fortune
Aztlan has to be careful about getting into another conflict, what with the CAS chomping at the bit to take back land.
Crimsondude 2.0
Yes, since they have nothing else going they can devote their free resources to invade a maybe a strip mall.
hermit
QUOTE
Anyway, DotSW says one of her goals is, "support the rights of metahumans" (193). That doesn't immediately make her The Great Orange Hope for metahumanity. Support is, in my eyes, nothing other than moving in position to stab you in the back.

Or, which would be the wiser choice, to help a group to then tell them they're in her guilt now. Not to mention she'd be pretty popular, and that popularity would make the people she supported oh so selflessly more incluined to support her bid for rulership over California.

Hey, Hestaby's not the first dragon to be elected head of state in America ...
Crimsondude 2.0
But she doesn't want to be the second, either.
hermit
She doesn't? I got a different impression from the DotSW feature on her ...
Kanada Ten
Hestby isn't in a position to do anything other than keep Tir at bay. Even her allies don't trust her at the moment, and, while she's busy reestablishing her credibility in the Northern Crescent, the plots of the Princes can't be helping her. Beyond the support for the MPA and Railroad, I don't see many overt moves by the Orange Queen for a time.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (hermit)
She doesn't? I got a different impression from the DotSW feature on her ...

Then you need to re-read it. It says that she knows she's not Dunk, and she doesn't want to be.
hahnsoo
Hestaby's approval ratings in the Tir are up, though, more so than Lofwyr's ever was. The poor and downtrodden see her as the "reform Prince", and hope to see great things from her. She may have more influence within the Tir than in the Northern Crescent.
Critias
QUOTE (hahnsoo)
Hestaby's approval ratings in the Tir are up, though, more so than Lofwyr's ever was. The poor and downtrodden see her as the "reform Prince", and hope to see great things from her. She may have more influence within the Tir than in the Northern Crescent.

Which is fucking ridiculous, considering the damage she personally did to the Tir military last time they made a land grab.

People don't forget things like that, especially in a nation that has (more or less) mandatory military service (which means anyone could have had family get slaughtered by her, had buddies in the service at the time, was a survivor, or otherwise was very directly affected by what she did). Especially the poor and downtrodden -- the two groups of people least likely to be able to buy their way out of military service, and the most likely to want to see the Tir expand (the larger and stronger the nation is, the better their odds of finally getting a job).

The Tir people suddenly deciding to love her so much more than Lofwyr is roughly analogous to Osama Bin Laden gaining public office, and everyone insisting he's a much better president than that Clinton fella from a while back. Sure, Clinton was controversial and lots of people didn't like him; but (just ask around) that doesn't automatically mean everyone loves the new guy, regardless of history, especially when that "history" involves personally killing quite a few citizens and halting their military single-handedly.
Fortune
I think comparing Clinton to Lofwyr is taking it a bit too far.

Besides, Clinton had a pretty high public opinion rating, especially after the scandal. wink.gif
hahnsoo
Not to mention comparing Hestaby to Osama Bin Laden. Sheesh. I think that's trying a bit too hard with the comparisons.
Critias
She single-handedly wiped out enough of the Tir military to halt their last serious southward advance. She stifled the growth of the country. She killed many, many, Tir soldiers personally.

You're right. It's a bad comparison. She'd be looked upon less kindly than we think of Osama, seeing as how he's not the guy who personally flew the plane(s).
Eyeless Blond
In particular when the Tir millitary had actually been stopped about 15 years earlier by the people of Redding. What Hestaby stopped was a "Tir strike force," probably more of a special ops team ordered to destroy the dam than a main push of the army. It would actually be pretty easy to convince the common people--using the proper spin doctoring, whish our dear Orange Lady seems to be more than capable at--that she was only defending her home and the innocents who would have been caught in the crossfire against the cruel and heartless actions of a few warmongers in the government. And, let's face it, in this case she'd have been right.

Also, by then Tir knew better than to try a direct assault; they had really only gotten as far as they had due to the combined surprise of the existance of their gigantic army right next door to California--which apparently had managed to catch the entire planet with its pants down--and said army's heavy magical integration, as magic had only been recognized as a serious asset in the world for maybe 20 years. With decades to prepare, the Redding rebels and even the ineffectual California government would have at least been able to scrape together enough to make it even harder for Tir to just take over.

In fact, that brings to mind another aspect of the California situation that so far very few people have even talked about: the central government. For the most part, noone bothers to evne talk about the actual government of CalFree, mostly because so far it's done nothing but screw up over and over again. Personally one thing I'd *like* to see is a particularly charismatic leader take over the top spot, maybe in 2056 or something, and start taking back some of the state, or at least making it a player worth mentioning again. Even in the 2060s there is still a great number of California patriots out there, as evidenced in all the shadowtalk that goes on every time CalFree gets mentioned. I can easily see all these disparate groups banding together behind a decent leader (who in turn would likely be backed by anyone from Ares to Hestaby or even some sort of Toxic Avenger spirit) and pushing many of the invaders out of California land, starting with Saito and his ilk. I could easily see California re-gathering itself together as a collection of states, a California Republic.

I doubt, however, that something like that'll ever actually happen. Up until now the writers seem to delight in finding ways to creatively screw over Cal's central government rather than help it along, even though there's not much to screw over anymore. nyahnyah.gif
hahnsoo
Perhaps Kenneth Brackhaven? Or even our little friend Arthur Vogel? I'd like to see one of the "Super Tuesday" candidates take up the spotlight again.
Critias
QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
In particular when the Tir millitary had actually been stopped about 15 years earlier by the people of Redding. What Hestaby stopped was a "Tir strike force," probably more of a special ops team ordered to destroy the dam than a main push of the army.

I admit my books are at home since I'm ninja-ing on from work (as usual), but I've never gotten the impression all Hestaby did was chew up a spec ops team. I've always seen it described as...(from the wiki here at DS)
QUOTE
Hestaby made her first public appearance when she stopped Tir Tairngire's assault on California in 2053 by pushing back the Tir troops and settling into the Shasta Dam.

...or something similar.

And, sorry, but I just don't see the common people of the Tir deciding to get all lovey-dovey with her. I admit I don't think I've ever seen actual statistics for how many soldiers she killed, what percentage of the advancing force it was, or any actual specifics for the "fight" (if it's fair to even call it a fight) that took place, but I've always had the impression it was her, much more than whatever militia the Californians had in place, that stopped the Tir advance (and mauled the Tir military). That's the sort of thing that people, especially people who were there or had family and friends there, tends to forget.

Hestaby suddenly becoming popular is very weak to me.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Critias @ Mar 9 2005, 03:52 AM)
QUOTE
Hestaby made her first public appearance when she stopped Tir Tairngire's assault on California in 2053 by pushing back the Tir troops and settling into the Shasta Dam.


Umm, I wrote that entry something like the day before yesterday. It was the most terse way I could explain it without ripping off canon with a lazy cut-and-paste.

Our current president being popular is very weak for me, but it happens. You can really spin-doctor anything.

In my mind, it's the "lesser of two evils"... The people currently hate the government more than a particular event 10 years ago, and anyone to fill in the void as "man of the underdog" would fit the bill.
Critias
Right, spin doctor. If anyone's genuinely better at it than the Tir Princes, tell me. 'Cause I'm sure they had their own spin on Hestaby's brutal and unprecedented attack against loyal Tir soldiers, and that they really drilled it home.

I don't think they could spin it if GW Bush had been in the first Gulf War, on the other side, and had single-handedly wiped out enough of the 101st Airborne that he so demoralized us we only liberated half of Kuwait before going home with our tail between our legs. Spin doctors then would have made it very clear what happened (and had a convenient target to pin the entire military failure on), there'd be photos of him with a squad automatic in each hand and breathing fire on our troops plastered all over the place, news stations across the globe would be buzzing with the one-man killing machine's insurmountable rage, etc, etc...

...and then, a similar amount of time later (about fifteen years), they just say he's a President "for the common man," and we all forget about what happened, that one time, over in that place somewhere far away? 'Cause that's exactly what they're doing, with Hestaby.
hahnsoo
There's a lot of things we have conveniently forgot about the President, and every president before him for that matter. And I don't think the Tir is not nearly as nationalistic as you make it out to be... I'm sure it used to be when it was the elven land of opportunity, but since the borders were closed in 2057 and the extreme economic troubles and taxation (each Gentry household being taxed more than 60% of total income), along with apparent action on the behalf of Hestaby to redress these issues when the rest of the Council has not for the past 5 years, it is easier for me to see how a desperate people will turn to the most readily available figurehead.
Critias
I guess. I mean, don't mistake my arguments -- I'm not calling you a liar or anything like that. I understand what the canon material says. I just think it very strongly contradicts so much of the previous material (Tir hatred and outrage against Hestaby) that it really bugs me. I can see the "new guy on the Council" gig working better for anyone else on the planet than I can see it working for Hestaby.

I mean, Kenneth Brackhaven could have suddenly turned over a new leaf (or SURGEd, for both), gotten a seat on the Council, and then built up support with his dynamic personality (or whatever)...and I could almost see it working better than someone who once whupped the Tir military's ass out of the Redding area personally, y'know? Nationalistic or not, the Tir's not a remarkably large country. I tend to almost think of it as the Israel of North America; small population, disproportionately large military, right? That adds up to everyone knowing someone that's either in the Peace Force right now, or was in the Peace Force fifteen years ago, etc, etc. Family and friends being killed by Hestaby's gotta leave a strong imprint.

But, ah well. Canon's canon. I'm done talkin', I guess.
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