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Smiley
QUOTE (Req)
You'll get the whole seat...but you'll only need the edge.

DAMN, I wish I'd thought of that!
Sandoval Smith
On a related topic, I can't really remember where I saw this, but does anyone remember seeing a _huge_ anti-FASA rant by some guy who was completly off his rocker because the release of Bug City screwed up his Chicago campaign?
Fortune
QUOTE (Black Mamba)
Fortune, forgive my presumptuosness. I was out of line.

It's cool.

Please note that nobody is saying you (not necessarily addressing Black Mamba) have to like everything (or even anything) about SR4. Nobody is saying you can't have, or express an opinion on anything. The problem is when people make great leaps of conjecture with very little information available, and then get overly upset about these suppositions and start ranting with no real cause.
kylleran
You want a good overreaction by a fan story get one of the old timers to tell about the dude who got really pissed about Dunklezahn getting cacked. It was before my time so I don't want to mess the story up but I can tell you it's pure comedy gold.
NeoJudas
QUOTE (Nikoli)
Adam, please oh please, get a video if this happens and host it here.

Video is my department rotfl.gif
NeoJudas
Gotta throw some remarks in here now ... (getting caught up one page at a time).

First of all, as someone that has an automatic distrust of anything making drastic changes to "MY SHADOWRUN" I admit that wondering about SR4 has me curiously aroused (back off... those are my toys). I have inherently felt that Shadowrun had enough inherent strengths over other gaming systems at the time that it really never needed any new editions.

Okay, so I was a playtester back through the first half/two-thirds of 3rd Ed and enjoyed it all. Life just catches up and we discover that stuff's just gotta change on occasion.

As for what I am hoping the most comes out of SR4 is a solution to a couple of the oldest problems in the game. Problems that have existed since SR1 actually.

Barrier vs. Body vs. Vehicles

Let's face it, this game mechanic gives everyone the most severe headaches of all. It's not that it cannot be figured it out, it's that it takes a stroke of mathematical mayhem in the middle of a heated combat scenario to figure it out. If it was somehow streamlined and still made to feel comfortable that would be cool IMO.

Matrix Mathematics

Speaking of mayhem, let's face it ... the whole concept of the the Cyberdeck slowed people down simply because of the math. I find it interesting that a couple months ago some of us here at the HHH.com group started playing around with Quantum Processing Pool and just ditching memory/MP entirely makes this whole "the matrix gets remade" rumor all the more enticing to me. I also admit that what I personally know about "Mobile Internet" gives me all sorts of ideas of how this might technically work and still be a playable game mechanic that makes sense to everyone.

Initiation Research

Okay ... gotta admit, this is really only a tad irritating. No real ideas on how to research a new metatalent on ones own. Coming up with "Quest ofs..." only goes so far IMO.
Sandoval Smith
QUOTE (kylleran)
You want a good overreaction by a fan story get one of the old timers to tell about the dude who got really pissed about Dunklezahn getting cacked. It was before my time so I don't want to mess the story up but I can tell you it's pure comedy gold.

Enlightenment please? (and if anyone knows where the Bug City one might be hiding, tell that too. All I really remember is the way that the rightous fury just boiled right off my screen).
Fresno Bob
Holy crap, if it means punchings, I will definately go to GenCon.
Kagetenshi
"And in other news today, a riot broke out at the scene of GenCon. No word yet on the cause, but occasional screams of 'Third Edition was good enough!', 'hands off my game world', 'I like pie', and 'for the honor of White Jesus' could be heard above the din."

~J
Arethusa
I've spent years preparing for nuclear holocaust and zombie holocaust, and now I have to deal with insufferable SR3 wanker holocaust?
Fresno Bob
I bet you'll feel really silly when you're totally unprepared for Nuclear Zombie Holocaust.
Kagetenshi
Haven't you heard? GenCon coincides with the Dark Conjunction which will raise zombies, and a nuclear meltdown near the site will prompt global nuclear war. It's the Nuclear Insufferable SR3 Wanker Zombie Holocaust.

~J
Fresno Bob
Wow, I totally didn't see that one coming. Guess I'll need to soundproof my shelter in addition to making it deeper. And I guess I could scatter a few more bear-traps to keep the zombies at bay. Unless they're giant mutant zombies. Maybe I'll scatter some copies of Cannon Companion around to keep the SR3 guys occupied, too.
Kagetenshi
By the power of zebra-striped undershorts!

~J
Synner
Anyone else feel this thread is on the fast track to getting locked?

Black Mamba - I echo Fortune's words. And apologize, I tend to get overly defensive when people make blanket statements about SR3, particularly when they muddle SR3 under FASA and what, IMHO, has been FanPro's excellent work in bringing a lot of original flavor and grit back into the setting since DotSW, both in terms of writing and artwork.

DotSW is a good case in point, a book which could have been a uberpowered campaign's dream come true, but which has material for all levels of play and some really nice twists. In terms of writing: SSG was very well recieved and rightly so; in general so was SoE (more so in Europe than America, true); SOTA64 (despite the controversy around adepts) and Mr.JLBB too. Having recently reread Loose Alliances from one end to another I am confident it's going to knock a lot of people's socks off. SoA surprised me in the end by turning out much better and atmospheric than I ever expected, a lot of people did a lot of good work on that. SoLA's still too fresh in my mind to comment.

On the art side I have been genuinely impressed by the evolution, DotSW and SSG had some really good material, I was fortunate that the art in SoE was excellent and evocative throughout (I cna't thank the artists enough) and SOTA64 is one of my favorite books in the whole line in terms of art (that picture of Howler was exactly what I had in mind when writing and the Scherwinski really nailed the Euro-magic perfectly). Haven't laid my mits on MrJLBB yet to see the artwork but am planning too soon.
BishopMcQ
Synner--I'd like to go on record once more, the guys who wrote SoE did a kick ass job, hands down.

On the subject of artwork I have to ask about the nipple piercing on a dragon...intentional or am I just seeing things?

Also, to be completely fair, will there be a line for the developers and playtesters to come and slap everyone who either a) went completely off the handle or b) spoke out of turn and made it come across as a personal attack against specific groups? I know that I deserve a few slaps being sent in my direction...
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Synner)
In terms of writing: SSG was very well recieved and rightly so; in general so was SoE (more so in Europe than America, true); SOTA64 (despite the controversy around adepts) and Mr.JLBB too.

On my lists, SSG has dethroned Shadowbeat as the book I thump soundly and say "This is the backdrop against which all your adventures are painted."

Mr.JLBB... all I can say is that there had better be portions of this book cut & pasted directly into the SR4 core rulebook (The "Don't Reprint Stuff I Already Have" crowd be DAMNED) or there had better be a tear out coupon in the back that gets you $10.00US off the purchace price of Mr.JLBB. How the game managed to go aproximately a decade and a half without the basic concepts of exactly what is a Shadowrun and what typically happens during one spelled out as clearly as they were in Mr.JLBB amazes me to this day.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE
How the game managed to go aproximately a decade and a half without the basic concepts of exactly what is a Shadowrun and what typically happens during one spelled out as clearly as they were in Mr.JLBB amazes me to this day.

I thought those books were called "adventure modules" nyahnyah.gif
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
I thought those books were called "adventure modules" nyahnyah.gif

Ah, yes, the shove-them-out-of-the-nest-and-the-ones-that-don't-go-splat-turn-out-to-be-decent-flyers approach. dead.gif

What about the Green-as-Amazonia Shadowrun Noobs, The ones who have absolutely no context for the game? It's not like fantasy role-playing where a new player at the very least, should have some grounding in the subject matter from the fables and faerie tales they grew up with.

Typically, with a new Shadowrun player, at the very least you rattle off a few movie titles like Sneakers or Ronin to give them some background before you either give them a pre-gen character or shove the core book in their hands and tell them to make their own character. Now that I have Mr.JLBB, I give them that, a week ahead of time instead. It gives a much better portrayal of what Shadowrunning's about than what you'd find in any of the core rulebooks.
NightHaunter
I'll just say Amen to that.
notworthy.gif
smokin.gif
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE
Typically, with a new Shadowrun player, at the very least you rattle off a few movie titles like Sneakers or Ronin to give them some background before you either give them a pre-gen character or shove the core book in their hands and tell them to make their own character. Now that I have Mr.JLBB, I give them that, a week ahead of time instead. It gives a much better portrayal of what Shadowrunning's about than what you'd find in any of the core rulebooks.


I'm pushing for, and will continue to push for, material like this being front and center in the SR4 main book. While, as a history buff, I like the "And So It Came to Pass..." history information in Shadowrun, I think far too much emphasis has been put in the main books on the past and far too little on the present life of a shadowrunner and the basics of what they actually do.
Solstice
Agreed. How long did it take for SSG to come? THen MJLBB how long after that? I totally agree. I had a player who has been playing since 2nd ed. came out and he had a very distorted (and incorrect) view of what a runner was and did.
Kagetenshi
Given that Shadowbeat was out during 1st edů

~J
mfb
indeed. i think the history section should be replaced with a collection of in-character articles and/or anecdotes that paint a picture of what shadowrunners are and what they do. mention the key points of the history in passing--the GGD, the balkanization of the US, the Great Jihad. but stuff like the rise of japan as a major power? you don't need to tell people that, you can just show them.
Nanostorm
As a longtime SR player, I just found about this a minute ago....

What I'm feeling now is just as close to hate as I probably could feel over a gaming product.

And here I thought Fanpro/Wizkids was doing such a good job on SR

please let me wake up.....

Rune
Patrick Goodman
Oh, Christ, here we go again....
Nanostorm
Sorry if you have heard these kind of statements before, but I am in title to voice my opinion. I have been a longtime player and own nearly all released SR products, so I'd say I have invested time and money into this. My first impression is just: I don't like this.

Making all my old books obsolete.

I don't like this at all

Rune
Fortune
It won't make all your books obsolete. Merely the core rulebooks. The sourcebooks and background for the Sixth World will still be usable.

Yes, you are entitled to express your opinion, but remember that most of us also have all, or nearly all the Shadowrun products. Quite a few of us have been through three editions already, but are still playing the game, and even using the sourcebooks from SR1 and 2.
Kagetenshi
If you own nearly all released SR products, you already own a whopping big stack of books almost as obsolete as the third ed ones are going to be.

(I'm assuming. Maybe they'll be rendered that much more obsolete, that depends on what the rules end up looking like)

~J
Kin
Fanpro shooting themself in their leg now, it would happen the same to them as to Pinnacle when they converted Deadlands to D20. No one supports it anymore.

I rather see a D20 variant of Shadowrun where they could put the Matrix stuff into, for wannabes and new players wanna play a Matrix rpg. Destroying the timeline aint the best thing a game company could do.

Why not also add some more subspecies into Shadowrun like Windlings and Obsidimen?
Nanostorm
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
If you own nearly all released SR products, you already own a whopping big stack of books almost as obsolete as the third ed ones are going to be.

(I'm assuming. Maybe they'll be rendered that much more obsolete, that depends on what the rules end up looking like)

~J

well you are certainly right there, but if the main rules are outdated with the 4th ed. won't the stats and stuff from the sourcebooks be just as outdated. And Im guessing that new scenarios and sourcebooks will not be usable with the old rules so....

I'm sorry -but I just found out about this litteraly a minute ago, and I feel a little flustered.

Don't know exactly what to tell my SR gaming group on monday. We have been going for allmost 10 years now.

Well I guess it's all gonna work out smile.gif

rune
Arethusa
If you've been going for 10 years, you've already been through one and possibly even two version transitions. Come on.
Solstice
All the glorious fucked up rules in R3...now worthless....

THE HORROR!!!!!!!!!


*EDIT* Mr. Goodman, if your sooo distraught at *gasp* up to 3(!) people voicing dissapproval at their $1000 worth of books being irrelevant and thus forcing everyone to buy BBB4, R4, Matrix, CC, M&M and whatever "core" rulebooks are needed (after 4 books does it really qualify as a "core" ruleset anymore?), perhaps you can verbally interject something useful instead of shaking your head like a middle school principle who found his children drawing wieners on the bathroom stall again.
Nanostorm
Ok so im gonna give the game designers a little trust, but as it says on the shadowrun homepage, they will be making the cyberdeck obsolete and calling all the deckers hackers "bacause that is what they really are". Am I to belive that all deckers are Otaku in 2070 and dont need cyberdeck, or are they rebuilding the whole backstory of shadowrun so that deckers never existed? That people could allways "log on" to the matrix using only their own nourological system. I don't know maybe the designers come up with good backstories for all of this -but I'm still afraid that it will differ from the original SR storiline in a way thatmakes it wery hard to continue the storyline for GM's and players.

And yes we have undergone transitions from SR to SR 2.ed to SR 3ed but noone said or did at that time remove deckers -one of the mainstaples of the SR world.

Rune
mfb
as noted on the site, the System Failure book will describe a catastrophic failure of the Matrix, which will require rebuilding. that rebuild will incorporate a lot of new technology, which in turn will make cyberdecks obsolete.
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (Solstice @ Mar 26 2005, 11:49 AM)
All the glorious fucked up rules in R3...now worthless....

THE HORROR!!!!!!!!!

Everybody's talking like this is a bad thing. I'm thinking it's been established that a lot of people don't think it's so.
QUOTE
*EDIT* Mr. Goodman, if your sooo distraught at *gasp* up to 3(!) people...

If it were just three people, Solstice, it wouldn't be too bad. You and I both know that the bitching has been more than just three people.
QUOTE
...voicing dissapproval at their $1000 worth of books being irrelevant and thus forcing everyone to buy BBB4, R4, Matrix, CC, M&M and whatever "core" rulebooks are needed (after 4 books does it really qualify as a "core" ruleset anymore?)...

A couple of things on this one.

1. You act as if I, and the other playtesters and writers, don't have the same $1000 or more worth of Shadowrun books.

2. You're being a tool, since it's been explained, both patiently and otherwise, that the portions being rendered "irrelevent" are the rules in those books. Every single letter of every single word of game world information, every shred of the background info that makes up better than 90% of those dozens and dozens of books (which, as I mentioned, the writers and developers also own) is still valid. The universe is not being reset, it is being advanced. The bulk of your investment is still wholly useful. That you choose to ignore the repeated mentions of this is your problem, not mine.

3. We're not forcing you to buy a damn thing. You want to keep playing things with SR3 rules? Go for it. Buy the setting books if you want; there's nothing saying that you can't keep using the rules that you obviously prefer.
QUOTE
...perhaps you can verbally interject something useful instead of shaking your head like a middle school principle who found his children drawing wieners on the bathroom stall again.

That's actually a splendid analogy, since that's exactly what it seems some of you are acting like.
Thanos007
Nanostorm where did you get the idea that they were chucking the back story? All the accumulated fluff. They are advancing the plot and streamlining the rules. Aside from the hacker/decker/rigger name change there is almost nothing that has been confirmed for anyone to be upset about. Can we all just chill until FanPro gives us a solid pice of info and then the real fire works can begin.


Thanos
Nanostorm
Ok I'll wait and see, I guess they will be coming up with a little more detailed info later, so I'll just keep my mouth shut until then.

ShadowRune
Patrick Goodman
QUOTE (Nanostorm @ Mar 26 2005, 12:59 PM)
Ok so im gonna give the game designers a little trust...

Thank you.
QUOTE
...but as it says on the shadowrun  homepage, they will be making the cyberdeck obsolete and calling all the deckers hackers "bacause that is what they really are".

Equipment goes obsolete all the time, as does terminology. I will, however, tend to agree that Rob's phrasing on that item might not have been the best, since I don't think we're unloading the cyberdeck entirely, just changing some of the technology. I could have missed something, though; it wouldn't be the first time.
QUOTE
Am I to belive that all deckers are Otaku in 2070 and dont need cyberdeck, or are they rebuilding the whole backstory of shadowrun so that deckers never existed? That people could allways "log on" to the matrix using only their own nourological system.

Of course they're not all otaku, and no, we're not changing the back story. I wish that one little misconception would go away, since that's causing a lot of the headaches around here.
QUOTE
I don't know maybe the designers come up with good backstories for all of this -but I'm still afraid that it will differ from the original SR storiline in a way that makes it wery hard to continue the storyline for GM's and players.

See my response to Solstice above. We are not changing the back story.
QUOTE
And yes we have undergone transitions from SR to SR 2.ed to SR 3ed but noone said or did at that time remove deckers -one of the mainstaples of the SR world.

Again, we're not getting rid of them. They are not being removed. They're getting a name change, and a tech upgrade or six, but they are not getting removed, and it was never ever suggested anywhere that they were, at least not by anyone involved with the new edition.
spudman
When words come out, whiskey can't get in. So maybe everyone should just pour themselves a shot (or several) and wait for the book to be released.
Solstice
Sarcasm was involved in my post. I don't like the R3 rules and I think it's a good thing that they are going away.

I think you iniated this whole "hew and cry" when you posted your idiotic comments on your blog. You just don't like the reaction. I'm not acting like a child, you don't see me engaging in wild conjecture. Of course we don't know what's going on....very little information is being put forth...which is understandable.

However, this is like if you were to leave your stove on all night with a gas leak and not expecting a fire. EVERYONE is going to sling rumors, heresay, and truth around like monkeys fling poo. Now this would all go away if we could get something substantial, which I understand is beyond your power to give. What about things that haven't changed? Is that also not available for comment?
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman)
1. You act as if I, and the other playtesters and writers, don't have the same $1000 or more worth of Shadowrun books.

Not that it matters worth anything, but when a freelancer's material shows up in a sourcebook, doesn't that freelancer get a copy of the sourcebook, gratis?
Shadow
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman)
QUOTE
deckers -one of the mainstaples of the SR world.

Again, we're not getting rid of them. They are not being removed. They're getting a name change, and a tech upgrade or six, but they are not getting removed, and it was never ever suggested anywhere that they were, at least not by anyone involved with the new edition.

Not to disagree with you but you are getting rid of the name. A name most of us find synonymous with Shadowrun. I know the name is just flavor text but then again, so is the name of the game.

Isn't possible, after seeing the fan outcry of the loss of the name "decker" you could just stop the nonsense of "hackers" and go back to calling it Decking?

I was talking to Doc F. and he was in total agreement with Fanpro about getting rid of the name Decking, saying, "Hey, they are just hackers."

My reply was that most of the specialized terminology in the game could be replaced. Sam's could be Mercs or Enforcers, the game name could be changed to Underworld (since that is what it is really about right?)

Can't you just keep calling them Deckers, please?

kevyn668
Just wait untill you hear what they're gonna call "Street Samurai."
DrJest
QUOTE (kevyn668)
Just wait untill you hear what they're gonna call "Street Samurai."

The amusing thing is, "Street Samurai" kind of implies a moral and/or ethical code. And yet I've lost count of the comments about how moral and ethical shadowrunners aren't a good thing.

Maybe I'm the only one who finds that funny smile.gif
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (DrJest)
The amusing thing is, "Street Samurai" kind of implies a moral and/or ethical code. And yet I've lost count of the comments about how moral and ethical shadowrunners aren't a good thing.

That's right, I still need to write that rantů

~J
DrJest
Pro or anti runner morality? Just curious.
kevyn668
I'm sorry. I couldn't resist. biggrin.gif

Back to the hacker thing: I think the coolest thing about that is, according to the blurb, the new Matrix is like a Digital Astral Space so a "hacker" can just sit down and tap in the Matrix via wireless conection. They used some term like techno astral projection, I think. Whatever the case, its sounds pretty damn cool. I still think they could have come up with a better name for these blokes but the whole "digital astral" is cool enough that I might be willing to let the stupid name slide, assuming it works out to be as cool as it sounds in my head.

Any word on that? The digital astral thingy?
kevyn668
QUOTE (DrJest)
Pro or anti runner morality? Just curious.

Personaly, I'm a little tired of the "no women, no kids" drek.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (DrJest)
The amusing thing is, "Street Samurai" kind of implies a moral and/or ethical code.

Personally, it always tickles me when people only focus on the second word in the term. I've always thought both halves "Street" and "Samurai" should bear equal weight.

The analogy I like to use is the fact that Deckers are sometimes refered to as "Console Cowboys" and yet, you don't hear people disparaging Console Cowboys for not lassoing more angus.

But that's just me. cyber.gif
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