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Vuron
My personal choice is having weapons with individual ammo characteristics. While there might be fewer ammo types than current not every heavy pistol should use the same ammo type.

Caseless weapons should be rare and only work with caseless ammo and vice versa.

Some weapons should possibly have the ability to load multiple ammo types similar to the FN SCAR but they should be exceptions rather than the rule.

Ohh and gyrojet and laser weapons should be really expensive and rare.
Critias
I think the cased/caseless concern is just about the last thing wrong with "Shadowrun and Firearms."
Patrick Goodman
Especially when it was mentioned, in either SR3 or Cannon Companion, that a weapon was one or the other. All the weapons in the book were able to use one or the other, i.e. they had two models (a cased model and a caseless model).

I wish I had my books with me, I'd give you a page reference.
Austere Emancipator
"Many weapons offer two versions, for standard loads or for caseless ammunition, though the latter is far more common in the 2060s. A weapon can fire either type of ammunition, but not both interchangeably." sr3.277
Which, of course, is bulldrek. To make a conventional firearm designed to fire cased rounds fire caseless rounds instead would require replacing or modifying most or all of the action of the gun. For some designs, it might require re-designing the whole receiver.

If you bought the idea that caseless has become as, or indeed more common than cased ammunition for small arms, then major firearm producers would no doubt offer very similar models, one for cased and another for caseless, of their more popular guns, but no way would that be the norm and the weapons would be too different to be called the same model.

But, like Critias, I do not consider this a priority for SR4. There's a bunch of things way more screwed than this in SR3 that I'm praying they'll fix first (so that I don't have to house rule them again).
mfb
what austere said--offering the same weapon in cased and caseless is unbelievably stupid. unlike him, though, i think it's a priority for the simple fact that a) it's high-profile, and b) it's really easy to fix. changing that would be a very visible nod towards realism in SR4, and it takes all of five minutes to fix--just run down the list of firearms and put an X beside the ones that use caseless.
Pthgar
I understand that there were two versions (cased and caseless) of each gun, but I still thought it was goofy. I like calibres. The calibre of the round and the type of projectile should determine the penetration and damage of a firearm, not the frame.
I like the idea of caseless prevelence in SR though. I think that it should be the "new automatic." Popular and good tech that is improving, but not as reliable as the old proven tech. Revolvers wouldn't be available in caseless.
Austere Emancipator
Shotguns and choke would have been really easy to fix. The silly Damage Codes (such as those of machine guns) would have been really easy to fix. And I know I'm forgetting something (or several things) which I've ranted in length about on these forums. Which goes to prove that screwed up things that would've been very easy to fix do leak into finished products all the time.

Of course I rather have a reasonable set of rules and tables and all for ranged combat in SR4, but I don't think that'll ever happen in a pen & paper RPG, so I rather they concentrated on the most obvious things.

QUOTE (Pthgar)
Revolvers wouldn't be available in caseless.

Revolvers, shotguns or (most types of) machine guns.

I understand that for many people caseless = cool, it's just very, very unlikely that caseless ammunition for conventional small arms will ever seriously challenge, let alone become more common than, cased ammunition. On the other hand, magic isn't very likely to appear either. Maybe caseless ammunition is part of the fantasy of Shadowrun...
Kagetenshi
To my mind, the entire debate between Caseless and Cased comes down to the following question: do we want Runners to have to specifically ensure that spent casings aren't left as evidence, or do we want that taken care of automatically?

It seems to me that the prevalence of caseless is a nod to the latter. I can't imagine why they left cased in (though I would have been fine with them going the other direction, it's the waffling that I don't get). I'm not sure that there's much more to the issue than that unless you really want to make a push towards realism.

~J
mfb
well, there are plenty of weapon designs that would still be around in SR3 and even SR4 that use cased ammo. caseless might be popular, but i honestly doubt that it would have the lion's share of the market. (of course, it's equally unlikely that wireless tech would take the sudden leap to the forefront between '65 and '70, so...)
Critias
Let me edit -- yes, the cased/caseless thing should be fixed. But no, I don't think it's the most important thing we've got to worry about, when it comes to firearms.

Some reasonable damage codes would be my first, second, and third choices for revision.
Pthgar
When my chars don't want to leave evidence laying around, they use revolvers or SuperSquirt II/Gamma-Scop.

If you check out the HK G11 here it seems to me that the mechanism was needlessly complicated. I don't know if this was a product of the caseless ammo or just some more conept design on the part of HK. If all caseless ae this complex, I want no part of them.
Vuron
Caseless ammo at current is pretty much limited to failed products like the G11 rifle and IIRC some very heavy machineguns. Fundamentally when you start looking at caseless you beging needing to look at the reasons why caseless would even be used. Using the G11 as the main example the gun fired a much smaller bullet but made up for that weakness in having a high ammo capacity, high ROF and very low recoil. If you begin looking at heavier rounds like the 7.62 NATO round the advantages of caseless begin to fade.

In terms of the dealing with spent casings for shadowrunners if it's that big of a concern then presumably you could have a nomex bag over the case ejection assembly that would catch the spent cartridges. It would be somewhat bulky but if leaving no casings is that big of a concern then it's definitely an option.

Of course I've always wondered why people are that concerned about casings anyway, presumably when you load the clip you could use gloves to prevent fingerprint matches and in terms of matching a bullet to a gun the actual bullet and the grooves left by the rifling are the more important concern.
Pthgar
That depends on wether on not "ballistics fingerprinting" (hah!) is wide spread. Firing pins leave pretty distinctive tool marks as well.
Vuron
QUOTE (Pthgar)
That depends on wether on not "ballistics fingerprinting" (hah!) is wide spread. Firing pins leave pretty distinctive tool marks as well.

Yeah they can but if you have the actual bullet fired a decent amount of the time you are going to be to get significant information concerning the weapon type etc. Further if you actually have the gun for comparison to a bullet the case significantly drops in value in terms of evidence.

I'm not saying that it's not a valid concern it just seems to be a case where the possibility of identifying a suspect from the ejected casings is significantly overstated.
Raygun
QUOTE (mfb)
well, there are plenty of weapon designs that would still be around in SR3 and even SR4 that use cased ammo. caseless might be popular, but i honestly doubt that it would have the lion's share of the market. (of course, it's equally unlikely that wireless tech would take the sudden leap to the forefront between '65 and '70, so...)

Yeah. You kind of have to put it all into reference here.

When Shadowrun first came out in 1989, caseless ammunition and weapons to fire it were supposed to be the Big Step Forward in small arms design. The Berlin Wall was still up while the book was being written, so the G11 was a big thing in Germany, and the Advanced Combat Rifle program was gearing up in the US, which the G11 was part of. I don't think you can really fault anyone for thinking caseless would be the best thing since sliced bread since a lot of gun rags were pissing themselves over it and technical information about the concept was not easy to come by in those days before the Internet. Anyway, caseless wasn't widely given up on until after SR2 came out. Things happened and the idea kind of flopped.

Edit: Now that I look at SR1, it appears that caseless ammunition wasn't even addressed until either SR2 (1992; which I don't have) or Fields of Fire (1994).

But there's not really much of an excuse for not fixing that stuff in SR3. It's one paragraph that would make things just that much more believeable. But on the other hand, it's not terribly difficult to ignore, either. If you're fine with taking a slap from the abstract stick, it's really not that big of a deal. It cuts down on the need for the developers to come up with specifically cased or caseless firearms. You can just say "hey, this gun is made by the same company, has the same stats, but it fires caseless ammo instead of cased. we'll just ignore the 'two versions of the same model' part". However, that does tend to ignore the reasoning behind the development of caseless ammunition in the first place, which was increased rate of fire = increased hit probability; basically a mechanical solution to a training problem.

Anyway, caseless ammunition is pretty unlikely to be as big of a deal as it's made out to be in SR so far. These days the big ammunition trend is going toward polymer cased ammunition (Natec). That I can see happening, at least on a military level. But as long as hunting is legal, brass is cheap, and hunters can reload, metallic cased cartridges will be around.

Anyway, it's kind of similar to the whole wireless thing in SR4. They didn't see it coming prior to SR3, as I'm sure not many of us did. They didn't expect the caseless small arms concept to flop, either.
Pthgar
QUOTE (Vuron)
I'm not saying that it's not a valid concern it just seems to be a case where the possibility of identifying a suspect from the ejected casings is significantly overstated.

Oh, in that case, yeah I agree one hundred per cent.
Vuron
As a key need to fix mechanic I would tend to say yes it's of a minor sort but like many people have said it's a very simple thing to correct it in the gun descriptions and pretty much retcon it out of existence.

And sense presumably a good percentage of the fluffy bits around the system haven't been written it's a great time to see things like caseless ammo disappear into the sunset.
Pthgar
QUOTE (Raygun)
But as long as hunting is legal, brass is cheap, and hunters can reload, metallic cased cartridges will be around.

Goodness, I didn't even think about reloads, I'm only an occasional shooter. Caseless will never take off for cilvilian and home defense. Ammo is too expensive for a serious hobbiest. From what I can tell, hardcore shooters would give up reloading just before they would give up breathing (which would before they gave up their guns wink.gif .)
Raygun
QUOTE (Vuron)
Caseless ammo at current is pretty much limited to failed products like the G11 rifle and IIRC some very heavy machineguns.

In terms of small arms, there are only two firearms I can think of off the top of my head that were designed to use caseless ammunition. The G11 and the Voere VEC91. The VEC91 was a bolt-action hunting rifle made in Austria, and fired a much different caseless cartridge than the G11 (it was electronically primed), with about the same ballistic properties as the .223 Remington. It flopped originally because there was only one source for ammunition and only one load for it, though I think it is still made.

QUOTE
I'm not saying that it's not a valid concern it just seems to be a case where the possibility of identifying a suspect from the ejected casings is significantly overstated.

You're not identifying a suspect, you're identifying a gun. There's a very big difference there, as a gun can be used by different people in the midst of an attack. There is other information that identified cases can provide, and that evidence may make a significant difference in a conviction, especially if there are multiple shooters and shots fired.
FrostyNSO
QUOTE (Vuron @ Apr 15 2005, 02:19 PM)
In terms of the dealing with spent casings for shadowrunners if it's that big of a concern then presumably you could have a nomex bag over the case ejection assembly that would catch the spent cartridges. It would be somewhat bulky but if leaving no casings is that big of a concern then it's definitely an option.

If you don't mind dealing with the ejection problems and many malfunctions that will occur from using this...If you don't have the weapon perfectly straight, i.e. you have it at a slight left-side cant, the case has an annoying habit of falling back into the ejection port (or not leaving it all the way in the first place) as it's trying to load the next round.
Vuron
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
QUOTE (Vuron @ Apr 15 2005, 02:19 PM)
In terms of the dealing with spent casings for shadowrunners if it's that big of a concern then presumably you could have a nomex bag over the case ejection assembly that would catch the spent cartridges. It would be somewhat bulky but if leaving no casings is that big of a concern then it's definitely an option.

If you don't mind dealing with the ejection problems and many malfunctions that will occur from using this...If you don't have the weapon perfectly straight, i.e. you have it at a slight left-side cant, the case has an annoying habit of falling back into the ejection port (or not leaving it all the way in the first place) as it's trying to load the next round.

I'm not an firearms engineer but it would seem to reason if dealing with spent casings is a major issue for most shadowrunners that presumably a reasonably reliable method for catching the casings could be accomplished in some sort of aftermarket form. In general it just doesn't seem like anyone particularly worries about the problem inordinately in today's world.
Raygun
QUOTE (Vuron)
I'm not an firearms engineer but it would seem to reason if dealing with spent casings is a major issue for most shadowrunners that presumably a reasonably reliable method for catching the casings could be accomplished in some sort of aftermarket form. In general it just doesn't seem like anyone particularly worries about the problem inordinately in today's world.

Anyone that you know about, anyway.

Certainly no one is going to make a caseless firearm for the purpose of eliminating that bit of evidence. But depending on the circumstances, it's not totally unreasonable to assume that one might choose to use a caseless firearm for that reason.
Vuron
QUOTE (Raygun)


Certainly no one is going to make a caseless firearm for the purpose of eliminating that bit of evidence. But depending on the circumstances, it's not totally unreasonable to assume that one might choose to use a caseless firearm for that reason.

Yes I could see the possibility of deciding to go with a caseless weapon if all other considerations are equal. So yeah if caseless becomes so common in the future so as to justify having a caseless and cased variety for each firearm I could see people willing to pay more for the caseless variant.

Of course like you've said the major design reasons behind caseless weapons are signficantly different than cased firearms. I for one would be much happier if caseless weapons were rare and expensive and had greater RoF ammo capacity than a cased weapon.

So instead of a Ares Predator being offered in cased and caseless (particularly in the exact same gun) I'd like to see a completely different weapon like Ares Stalker that has lower base damage (to represent the smaller ammo) but a high rate of fire and a signficantly higher ammo capacity.

It would offer more options for the gun nuts out there and might make firearms within a class more appreciably different from each other than they are in SR3.
mfb
QUOTE (Vuron)
In general it just doesn't seem like anyone particularly worries about the problem inordinately in today's world.

i'm not sure what you mean by this. the gutterpunks who run around "popping caps" often don't worry about it, sure, but that's because in that particular subculture, prison is a home away from home. it's not that they don't think they'll be caught, it's that they don't care if they get caught.

i don't know many professional killers, myself, but i do imagine that the ones who make their living doing such things do, indeed, worry about picking up their brass. of course, those guys probably don't tend to open up with automatic weapons and spray hundreds of rounds (and shell casings) all over the area, so it's much simpler for them to clean up afterwards.
RunnerPaul
Since it's been part of the game since the start, I wouldn't mind them keeping the caseless/cased dualtity, but only if they could come up with believable in-game explanations for all the questions it raises.

One of the times the caseless/cased debates came up in the past, someone suggested that perhaps SR's caseless is something of a misnomer, that it actually has a thin case made out of a material (aluminium, perhaps) that vaporizes away as the round ignites. While that could potentially explain away some of the caseless/cased issue's wierdness it doesn't address why that sort of "vaporizing case" ammunition would be developed and find its way into widespread use in the first place.
Austere Emancipator
Combustible cases are a reality for tank guns -- for example, the 120mm L44/M256 of the M1A1/A2 Abrams and Leo 2s through to 2A5 and the 120mm L55 of the Leo 2A6 both use combustible cases. They have also been developed and are used in auto-loading field howitzers (at least 130mm and 155mm guns) as well as some other tank guns. However, AFAIK, all those designs have a metallic case base.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Combustible cases are a reality for tank guns

So the question is, what would make the small-arms industry embrace such a concept?

Is there some concrete benefit to using combustable cases that'd still be valid when scaled down to firearm sized rounds?
Penta
The reality is that caseless weapons look unlikely to take off.

Nobody but the military would have a valid, legal need for them. These days, civilian sales keep a gun alive on the market, with military sales helping launch.

I could see the manufacture of caseless small-arms (particularly handguns and anything nominally civilian-available) being banned by any government worth the title.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Penta)
I could see the manufacture of caseless small-arms (particularly handguns and anything nominally civilian-available) being banned by any government worth the title.

Ah, but this is Shadowrun. With the rise of Megacorporate power and the decline of nation-states, are there any governments worth the title by the 2050s-2070s?
biggrin.gif
Penta
<Points at General Colloton in RA:S>

I would imagine, yes.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (RunnerPaul)
Is there some concrete benefit to using combustable cases that'd still be valid when scaled down to firearm sized rounds?

Nope, none that I know of. Which of course doesn't mean there isn't one, just that it isn't blaringly obvious if there is. I was just pointing out that "vaporizing cases" do exist so they don't need to be developed from the ground up. Of course we'd need much more advanced material technology to get rid of the metal case base -- otherwise you're still stuck with having to eject something from the breech after firing.
Raygun
QUOTE (Vuron)
Yes I could see the possibility of deciding to go with a caseless weapon if all other considerations are equal. So yeah if caseless becomes so common in the future so as to justify having a caseless and cased variety for each firearm I could see people willing to pay more for the caseless variant.

I should point out here that while a firearm using caseless ammunition would likely be more expensive to produce than a cased ammunition firearm of similar performace (especially if you intend to take advantage of a high ROF mode like the G11), caseless ammunition would be much less expensive to mass-produce, as there are no metallic components short of the bullet itself, and production is totally automated. Cases don't have to be drawn and formed, which leaves out the second most expensive component of the cartridge, and less people in the production line lowers costs.

QUOTE
Of course like you've said the major design reasons behind caseless weapons are signficantly different than cased firearms. I for one would be much happier if caseless weapons were rare and expensive and had greater RoF ammo capacity than a cased weapon.

That would all depend on the intended purpose of the firearm. A caseless firearm does not necessarily have to take advantage of the high ROF that caseless was initially developed for. The difference in capacity really doesn't have much to do with the ammunition itself; in the case of the G11, the increase in capacity was due mostly to the design of the firearm and how ammunition was fed into it. For example, the FN P90 has a significant capacity advantage over other SMGs due in large part to the layout of the magazine and action, and it uses cased ammunition.

There are other advantages to caseless, particularly a savings in weight (a soldier can carry more of it) and the cost of ammunition production (somewhere in the range of 1.5 to 2 times the amount of caseless cartridges for the same cost as a comparable cased cartridge, IIRC).

QUOTE
So instead of a Ares Predator being offered in cased and caseless (particularly in the exact same gun) I'd like to see a completely different weapon like Ares Stalker that has lower base damage (to represent the smaller ammo) but a high rate of fire and a signficantly higher ammo capacity.

I don't disagree with the idea that there should be two separate models of firearms here. But again, high ROF and ammunition capacity would have more to do with a drastic change of firearm design that the ammunition type by itself.

QUOTE (RunnerPaul)
So the question is, what would make the small-arms industry embrace such a concept?

You'd have to show a significant improvement performance in some area, which, at the small arms scale, I'm afraid this concept wouldn't really offer over other technologies like polymer cased or caseless.

QUOTE
Is there some concrete benefit to using combustable cases that'd still be valid when scaled down to firearm sized rounds?

Not that caseless hasn't already accomplished. The only possible benefits I can think of would be A) the metallic base acting as a breech seal, which could make the firearm significantly easier to engineer than a caseless firearm, and B) it would also act as a heat sink, albeit a small one. Actually, that feature right there is what makes cased ammunition more viable that most others. The case itself absorbs a good deal of heat and removes it from the weapon. With caseless or a case that's designed to combust, that doesn't happen and the weapon itself has to absorb that heat. Coincidentally, that was one of the major hurdles that the G11 had to overcome. Some say it never did.
Vuron
I know that many people on dumpshock loathe the flechete pistol but considering it's a nod towards Neuromancer I'm wondering if there would be a realistic market for flechete submachineguns and assault rifles.

While game mechanics wise the shotgun sort of takes this role the whole concept of the weapon is significantly different. Could there be room for a canonical weapon with submachinegun and AR ranges that uses flechete rules but no shotgun spread type rules?
FrostyNSO
Actually, some people will load revolvers with birdshot (like first round birdshot followed by slugs) for home-defense usage....
MYST1C
QUOTE (mfb)
of course, those guys probably don't tend to open up with automatic weapons and spray hundreds of rounds (and shell casings) all over the area, so it's much simpler for them to clean up afterwards.

That's the big advantage of bolt-action rifles and revolvers: You decide when (if) the case is ejected.
MYST1C
QUOTE (Penta)
Nobody but the military would have a valid, legal need for them. These days, civilian sales keep a gun alive on the market, with military sales helping launch.

I could see the manufacture of caseless small-arms (particularly handguns and anything nominally civilian-available) being banned by any government worth the title.

I can't remember the name right now but there's one company IRL that produces a caseless hunting rifle line.
Vuron
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
Actually, some people will load revolvers with birdshot (like first round birdshot followed by slugs) for home-defense usage....

While I can see that being a variation of a pistol like shotgun (even though it seems like that would be hell on the rifling of the revolver barrel) it doesn't really get into the concept of firing a hypersonic dart rather than a chunk of lead.
FrostyNSO
QUOTE (Vuron)
I'm wondering if there would be a realistic market for flechete submachineguns and assault rifles.

Hmmmmm...

Steyr ACR I believe?

Cancelled I believe?
Raygun
QUOTE (MY$TIC)
I can't remember the name right now but there's one company IRL that produces a caseless hunting rifle line.
Vuron
QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
QUOTE (Vuron @ Apr 15 2005, 05:57 PM)
I'm wondering if there would be a realistic market for flechete submachineguns and assault rifles.

Hmmmmm...

Steyr ACR I believe?

Cancelled I believe?

Yeah but the OICW XM-29 is functionally cancelled as well. It's not that a flechette rifle doesn't show potential it's just that within current technology the flechette projectile doesn't show enough of an improvement over conventional weapons to make them a realistic alternative.
blakkie
QUOTE (Raygun)
QUOTE (MY$TIC)
I can't remember the name right now but there's one company IRL that produces a caseless hunting rifle line.

They do claim some benefits. Primarily due to less moving parts and less time between trigger pull and the load firing.
FrostyNSO
Ok, so it was cancelled, I couldn't remember.

I don't know exactly what could make them any more plausible. Really you have to look at what you're trying to achieve with a flechette AR or SMG, which is (accuracy?).

If better training is a cheaper way to increase accuracy, then you're out of luck. Then you also have to look at the flechette itself, and it's expected terminal effect in comparison with what your looking to replace.

edit: I do think that there will always be a market for niche firearms, and in the 50-odd years leading up to shadowrun, I don't see any reason why there might not be one or two caseless or flechette weapons on the market, given a good bit of technological advancement.
Raygun
QUOTE (blakkie)
They do claim some benefits. Primarily due to less moving parts and less time between trigger pull and the load firing.

Nothing over this, however. A major advantage over the Voere is that the EtonX can be handloaded and chambered for much more powerful cartridges.
Vuron
Well the flechette design of the Steyr ACR does appear like it offers pretty decent improvements over a standard cartridge in terms of velocity and armor piercing it's just that it doesn't offer enough advantage to make them cost effective to switch to.
Arethusa
Well, it also offers significant disadvantages in terms of terminal performance. Flechettes are the kind of thing that can really fuck you up in the long term but can potentially do fantastically little to impede your immediate combat performance. Given that the current 5.56x45mm already has an immense wealth of complaints and issues raised about its terminal effectiveness, the early-mid 90s craze over small bullets is pretty solidly on its way out.

And I, for one, welcome out new 6.8mm SPC overlords.
Young Freud
QUOTE (RunnerPaul)
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Apr 15 2005, 04:32 PM)
Combustible cases are a reality for tank guns

So the question is, what would make the small-arms industry embrace such a concept?

Is there some concrete benefit to using combustable cases that'd still be valid when scaled down to firearm sized rounds?

If DARPA is to believed, enhanced lethality caused by increased velocity through case combustion. One of the things that has been tossed around is that the XM8 is that the XM8 will use a combustible case round, in addition to the current standard issue rounds, and the M8 carbine will achieve the same accuracy, range, and casualty production with the cartridge as with a M4 carbine firing current ammo, even though the M8's barrel is two inches shorter than the M4's.

The thing is that ammo program was developed seperately from the XM8 program, so it's thought that the combustible case ammo can be used in M16-based rifles and the new SCAR rifle.
Wounded Ronin
I just hope that SR4 has enhanced firearms realism, and fixes the damage codes so that SMGs and machine guns and assault rifles are actually, like, really really deadly compared to heavy pistols.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Young Freud @ Apr 16 2005, 11:15 PM)
If DARPA is to believed, enhanced lethality caused by increased velocity through case combustion.

I could see that as being the perfect selling point, actually. Even if there's only a slight increase in muzzle velocity, give the small-arms industry's marketing departments just the right set of market conditions to exploit, such as the initial wave of goblinization, where there would be a public perception that you'd need every last ounce of extra stopping power that you could squeeze out of your firearms in order to be able to drop that troll, and it falls well into the realm of possibility that combustible case ammo could gain a significant market share.

Of course, it's not too much of a stretch to envision a game mechanic that supports the above fluff. In SR1-3 terms, I wouldn't be above giving cased rounds a -1 to Power off of the standard combustible case "caseless" rounds. The beauty of it though, is that you wouldn't have to have the mechanic to make the fluff work, since really it's not whether or not combustible case rounds actually have more stopping power than the alternative, it's just whether or not the public perceives that they do.
Raygun
QUOTE (Young Freud)
If DARPA is to believed, enhanced lethality caused by increased velocity through case combustion. One of the things that has been tossed around is that the XM8 is that the XM8 will use a combustible case round, in addition to the current standard issue rounds, and the M8 carbine will achieve the same accuracy, range, and casualty production with the cartridge as with a M4 carbine firing current ammo, even though the M8's barrel is two inches shorter than the M4's.

I've heard something similar, though it didn't have anything to do with combustible cased ammunition or DARPA. Rather it involved the progression of conventional propellant technologies, specifically those of comparatively lower volume that burn at faster rates, resulting in a relative increase in velocity from a shorter barrel, used in conjunction with both heavier bullet loads (similar to that of the Mk262 load that's been seeing quite a bit of use lately), and lightweight, non-combustible polymer cases.

QUOTE
The thing is that ammo program was developed seperately from the XM8 program, so it's thought that the combustible case ammo can be used in M16-based rifles and the new SCAR rifle.

The only small arms program I've seen combustible cased ammunition referenced to is the OICW program, which at the moment is close to completely shut down. Dynamit Nobel (the same company responsible for the development of the G11's 4.73x33mm DM11 caseless cartridge) were supposed to be developing it. All of the patents I could find regarding a "combustible cartridge" or "combustible ammunition" related to tank/artillery munitions, though the patent for the polymer-cased ammunition developed by Natec did include the following:

QUOTE (US 6845716)
The ammunition article 21 preferably also includes a base 45 attached to the second end 27 of the cartridge casing body 23. One suitable material for the cartridge casing body 23 is a modified ZYTEL resin, available from E.I. DuPont De Nemours Co., a modified 612 nylon resin, modified to increase elastic response. In embodiments of the present invention wherein a molded cartridge casing body may be provided, a suitable cartridge casing body may also be made of a moldable material that forms part of the propellant pack, i.e., a moldable propellant, or otherwise is itself combustible or consumable by a propellant such as a powder ignition.

Honestly, I'm not sure how much of a benefit that would provide. There may be a significant savings in weight, but that's immediately traded off by an increase in heat transferred to the firearm as the combustible case is not going to provide a heat sink as well as cased ammunition would, as well as the possibility of the combustible cartridge itself being less resistant to heat (increased probability of cook-offs).

Anyway, if you have links with more information about combustible cased ammunition in relation to small arms and the programs you mentioned, I would most defintely like to see it. I can't seem to find much more than blog blurbs via Google.
Austere Emancipator
The increased velocity only really matters when you've got a caliber standard to worry about, though, such as in the armed forces. Otherwise you could simply increase the size of the cartridge slightly (a few millimeters in all directions, maybe) to allow for that little bit more propellant to be packed in to get the exact same benefit -- or, for a saner approach, simply pick a more powerful existing caliber to pick a gun in. [Edit]Or, like Raygun pointed out, finding ways of getting more efficient propellant in the same cartridge.[/Edit]

The efficiency of it, getting those 50 extra feet per second from a cartridge of the same size, hardly matters outside of the armed forces either. Further, if the velocity gain is less than, for example, the difference between standard and +P loadings for .45 ACP, I just can't see it being a huge factor.

That's not to say that such technology wouldn't have some demand, but based on what (little) I know it'd take one hell of a marketing campaign for it to gain a large share of the market. The +/- 1 Power is definitely uncalled for, unless the combustible case actually provides a lot more extra velocity than the difference between a 14.5" and a 12.5" barrel. Even then, I don't think it'd make sense unless some kind of Ammo By Caliber rules were worked into SR4.

[Edit]Google is pissed off at me right now for some reason. Can someone find links related to these projects?[/Edit]
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