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Ol' Scratch
Under that system, defaulting is almost akin to suicide since a single 1 means you trigger the Rule of 1.
Mr. Man
QUOTE (Dakhran the Dark)
I'm still in the "wait and see" camp, which is starting to look kind of empty...

Probably because most of us in the "wait and see" camp are waiting to see rather than spamming the board with opinions based almost entirely on massive doses of assumption. I rarely even lurk the SR4 section now because so many of the posts take one miniscule fact about SR4 then mix it in with SR3 rules and pure imagination to come up with observations that are slightly more euridite than "OMG, SR$ IS TEH SUX!!!!1!" but essentially the same content-wise.

Bigity
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
Under that system, defaulting is almost akin to suicide since a single 1 means you trigger the Rule of 1.

Yea, but usually the result isn't overly harmful. More like a gun jam, tire blowing, program crashing, tripping, etc.
Kagetenshi
Under most circumstances that Runners tend to default in, that's pretty "overly harmful".

~J
Bigity
Well sure, but not directly. That leaves the opened window:

"Hey, you should carry a backup weapon."

"Well, those spikes only point one direction..you drove over it the wrong way."

"You were the one who made your program based on the code you stole from the Stuffer Shack."

"Ouch. Looks like those sling-back high heels aren't so good for hopping fences."
BitBasher
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
No. It's all 1's.

There was an optional rule in the companion that allowed for what was being described. I've used it forever. If the ones was equal to or greater than the base skill it's a botch.
blinkin
Due to how bad a critical failure tends to be in shadowrun already. From my experience we already see a critical failure often enough. Using what I guess has been determined the optional rule. Which is when you get as many 1's as you have skill. I think it averages out to about once every 5-6 sessions, in my experience. Sometimes we do have the phenomenally bad moment when more than one critical failure occurs in close proximity to each other. Such as one instance when there were three critical failures inside of 5 minutes.
GunnerJ
So, can anyone link me to where info is being posted on SR3R?
Jrayjoker
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...ic=8169&hl=sr3r

Unless of course you were being clever.

smile.gif
Zen Shooter01
It's ridiculous to condemn an entire basic book that no one has yet seen because of what you saw in a one page teaser.

And can we please shut up with all the "I'm never playing 4!" Yes, you are. Because if you really were going to abandon SR, you wouldn't be here on the boards, pouring your negativity all over a product we haven't seen yet.

What do you naysayers think you're accomplishing? If SR4 sells -- to old players, to new players, to Alsatians, to Martians, FanPro doesn't care, as long as they make the money, because they are a corporation, after all, and the bottom line is the bottom line -- then FanPro will be happy. If it doesn't sell, FanPro won't be happy. But FanPro is totally unaffected by your whining and moaning.

Want to protest it? Don't buy it. But do the math...how many people have bashed 4 on these boards? A hundred (Crimsondude being at least four of them)? In the big picture of the global Shadowrun community, in the big picture of global sales, that small number doesn't matter at all.

On the other hand, I want to urge the designers and playtesters like Patrick Goodman and Adam who have posted in wounded tones to take a big breath and toughen up. Number one, some loser screwing off on the company computer at the Topeka, Kansas DMV calls you a rude name, and you get upset? Come on. It's the internet.

Number two, you announced that you're totally remodelling a game system that, while flawed, is well-loved. Did you think that every runner everywhere was going to give you a big wet handjob? It was going to be controversial. You had to know that on day 1.
Jrayjoker
Ahh, intelligent, mature discourse. It is like fresh air to me. sarcastic.gif

I was under the impression that this was simmering down until your post. Are you just trolling?
Lindt
Seriously, if I wanted diceless, Id go LARPing. At least that way I can beat people about the head with plumbing and birdseed.
Critias
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01)
It's ridiculous to ... think that every runner everywhere was going to give you a big wet handjob? It was going to be controversial. You had to know that on day 1.

Wow. Stir shit up, much?
GunnerJ
QUOTE (Jrayjoker)
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...ic=8169&hl=sr3r

Unless of course you were being clever.

No, I find myself becomming more and more interested recently. Thanks.
nezumi
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01)
And can we please shut up with all the "I'm never playing 4!"... What do you naysayers think you're accomplishing?

Yeah, you're right! This board isn't designed for people to talk about their feelings on some silly game we haven't even seen yet! It's very clear what the subject for this board is and it's obviously NOT Shadowrun 4.

Adam
I'm supposed to care ... I'm not supposed to care ... I'm supposed to care, but never express it ... I'm not supposed to think about something unless Bigity approves it ... man, this is confusing.
Jrayjoker
QUOTE (GunnerJ)
QUOTE (Jrayjoker @ Jun 2 2005, 08:04 PM)
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...ic=8169&hl=sr3r

Unless of course you were being clever.

No, I find myself becomming more and more interested recently. Thanks.

No problem, just checking. And you are welcome.
hermit
QUOTE
I'm supposed to care ... I'm not supposed to care ... I'm supposed to care, but never express it ... I'm not supposed to think about something unless Bigity approves it ... man, this is confusing.

... and don't forget the NDA. Always the NDA. wink.gif
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Adam)
I'm supposed to care ... I'm not supposed to care ... I'm supposed to care, but never express it ... I'm not supposed to think about something unless Bigity approves it ... man, this is confusing.

Melodramatic much?
Adam
Naw, I'm not flailing my arms about or anything. smile.gif More like "Always bemused by the different ways different gamers expect industry people to act and react to them." and also "annoyed at people who troll message boards."

Also "Depressed that Smackdown is probably going to suck tonight."
RangerJoe
SR4 is begining to feel like a kinder-gentler system to me than SR3. Maybe glitches aren't too bad. Roll a glitch on your pistols test, and dag-nabbit, you would have hit square, but your mark has dived behind a dumpster. Better luck in 6 seconds.

Speaking of 6 seconds.....I wonder how fast the new automatics will fire....
BitBasher
QUOTE (RangerJoe)
Speaking of 6 seconds.....I wonder how fast the new automatics will fire....

DOZENS of rounds a minute if you're good! biggrin.gif
hermit
Assuming fire rates remain the same. Which we haven't been told, to my knowledge. My guess would be on something like extended autofire, with an option to empty a heavy pistol's clip in one combar turn.
langolas
Rule of 1 might also not mean a catastrophic failure, just a complication. Kind of like rolling a 1 on the wild in the old WEG Star Wars game. Might not mean you failed, just a complication. Your sneaking up on someone and step on a twig, somthing like that.

I too am in the wait and see, especially since i'm not to plussed about having to purchse another rule book, tech book, magic book, matrix (or whatever the dreck it's called now) book, etc.
Dakhran the Dark
QUOTE (Adam)
Also "Depressed that Smackdown is probably going to suck tonight."

I haven't watched it in months -- have I missed a show where it hasn't sucked? smile.gif

Anyway, just wanted to say that, since I don't have enough information yet to form a solid opinion on SR4, the only complaint I have at the moment is that someone, probably at Game Trade magazine, really needs to stop letting their 10-year old kid write their ad copy for their giveaways. Unless that, of course, the target audience they have in mind are those who would rather not be labeled as "whacked" or a "serious trog" if they pass up on the "righteous" opportunity... ohplease.gif

Oh...and the "Bug City is love" icons scare me.
Crimsondude 2.0
What else would you call it?
Solstice
My worst fears have been realized. It's completely changed. The only thing leftover is the trusty brick o' six sideds....and for all the wrong reasons.
frostPDP
Okay, I've officially joined the "No way, no how" column after reading this article (Not that I won't at least look at the source book/ buy it for the gameplay info and a few minor rules suggestions.)

Basically, the game has become Vampire: The Masquerade (Or maybe...Shadowrun: 2070 mercs?) as far as my eye can see. Only with a 1d6 instead of 1d10 there's even greater chances of the rule of 1 coming and ruining a perfectly good roll.

6's not re-rolled (which is what I think Exploding means)? Except in the case of Edge, which is a riddiculous development on Karma Pool so far as I am concerned?

Forget it. A 1 in 6 chance that a die leads to a cataclysmic failure is a mess. I'm not sure I really like what they're doing with Deckers, and I'm not convinced Fanpro has gotten past the 60's when it comes to the hallucinations they're having about how this game can possibly be -better- than Shadowrun 3.

SR4e sounded great. Now, it sounds like a disaster. "To maintain familiarity?" Another hallucination - I hardly recognize the game except for the artwork, thusfar. That, and my pretty D6's, which will firmly be used to play Shadowrun, not Shadowrun: 2070 Mercs.
Snow_Fox
QUOTE (Critias)
Sounds that way.

I've never heard of streamlining by adding like four attributes before. What a totally righteous idea.

Yeah, I commented on that before. the basic laws of mathematics prove them wrong. adding more variable never makes a calculation easier.
Snow_Fox
QUOTE (Zen Shooter01 @ Jun 2 2005, 03:06 PM)
It's ridiculous to condemn an entire basic book that no one has yet seen because of what you saw in a one page teaser.

And can we please shut up with all the "I'm never playing 4!" Yes, you are. Because if you really were going to abandon SR, you wouldn't be here on the boards, pouring your negativity all over a product we haven't seen yet.

What do you naysayers think you're accomplishing? If SR4 sells -- to old players, to new players, to Alsatians, to Martians, FanPro doesn't care, as long as they make the money, because they are a corporation, after all, and the bottom line is the bottom line -- then FanPro will be happy. If it doesn't sell, FanPro won't be happy. But FanPro is totally unaffected by your whining and moaning.

Want to protest it? Don't buy it. But do the math...how many people have bashed 4 on these boards? A hundred (Crimsondude being at least four of them)? In the big picture of the global Shadowrun community, in the big picture of global sales, that small number doesn't matter at all.

On the other hand, I want to urge the designers and playtesters like Patrick Goodman and Adam who have posted in wounded tones to take a big breath and toughen up. Number one, some loser screwing off on the company computer at the Topeka, Kansas DMV calls you a rude name, and you get upset? Come on. It's the internet.

Number two, you announced that you're totally remodelling a game system that, while flawed, is well-loved. Did you think that every runner everywhere was going to give you a big wet handjob? It was going to be controversial. You had to know that on day 1.

Zen remember the people who post here tend to be the hard core players, the base community upon whose backs fanpro hopes to shovel the 4th ed. the fact that a growing number of people are turning against this ed as more details ocme out makes a statement. sure Fanpro only cares about profits. Maybe those of us who are nay sayers hope to cut into those profits. We are the people they are counting on keeping the game going while they hope to lure in more people. We are making a statement that we are not going to support them. They can maybe change what damage they are doing, fat chances I know, but the other fact is that if it fails, we don't care. They are doing enough damage to something we love and some of us have played since the 80's, that maybe we feel this is payback.
Fortune
QUOTE (BitBasher)
QUOTE (RangerJoe @ Jun 2 2005, 03:12 PM)
Speaking of 6 seconds.....I wonder how fast the new automatics will fire....

DOZENS of rounds a minute if you're good!

LMMFAO! rotfl.gif
Nerbert
At this point, its safe to say that SR4 bears no resemblance whatsoever to Vampire.

I'm not sure how exactly adding more attributes complicates a system. The system is "x + skill", there used to be fewer 'x's, now there are more. The game mechanic itself is not complicated by the presense of more attributes, especially if there's a good explanation of what each of the attributes are good for.

Sure you can say that changing the number of possible values of x exponentially increases the number of combinations, which is technically true, but in reality, everyone knows not to use Edge, Resonance, Charisma, Intelligence or Strength for a firearms test.
Arethusa
QUOTE (Snow_Fox)
QUOTE (Critias @ Jun 2 2005, 12:36 AM)
Sounds that way.

I've never heard of streamlining by adding like four attributes before.  What a totally righteous idea.

Yeah, I commented on that before. the basic laws of mathematics prove them wrong. adding more variable never makes a calculation easier.

Which is flawed, because they're not adding more variables in single calculations by adding more attributes, and the number of variables involved in a calcuation is not the only cause of (potentially very unnecessary) complexity or slow play. Moreover, you could very easily double the number of attributes and still end up with a much more streamlined system that played a hell of a lot better. mfb, as I recall, acknowledged this many times.

Unfortunately, it doesn't look like they actually did streamline things, and it's looking like this is just going to be a sloppy cockup, but that doesn't mean adding attributes invariably makes things messier.
Snow_Fox
They are adding more variables to the character creation/statistics and claiming it is less confusing and more stramline. How on earth does anyone with even a 3rd grade education expect to believe that going from 6 characteristics to 10 is easier or streamlining? Either they are idiots for saying it, or they think we are idiots for believing it.
Arethusa
I'd call you an idiot for assuming 6 attributes are inherently more sensible than 10.

Consider, for example, that the current 6 attributes are a little nonsensical. If I created a system with 10 attributes, all of which made sense, fit reality, and were intuitively sensible, it'd play a lot better than 6 attributes that don't make sense, don't fit reality, and are far from intuitive.

And that's a shame, really, because instead we're getting 10 attributes that just filed for divorce from reality.
Nerbert
Lets say, for the sake of example, that you're playing a game with an attribute called "Quickness", only its not really about speed, because its also used to measure your reflexes, only its not really meant to measure your reflexes either because it also heavily influences your manual dexterity.

Now, imagine that you divide this stat into "Agility" and "Reaction". Agility will only ever be used for speed and dexerity and Reaction will only ever be used for reflexes.

Now, which system is more complicated/confusing?
Snow_Fox
So Arthusa we can safely assume you have not cleared the 3rd grade. If you are getting into name calling you little shit, make sure of you facts and read what I write.

I did not say it might not be more realistic. I just said there was no way you could justify it as streamlined. Or are your math skills as defective as your manners? I know, try counting on your fingers, that should be about right. See which takes up more space sparky, 6 or 10.
Arethusa
Now imagine you were sitting around one day, working on SR4 next to your favorite case o' whiskey, and just like every day, this case sure ain't gonna drink itself before you get back to workin'. But then, you think, maybe I should stop drinking, just this once, and see what happens.

And then it occurs to you that using a single stat for gross agility and manual dexterity still doesn't make the slightest fucking bit of sense, and breaking off reaction into another stat only makes things worse.

[edit]

Snow:
Yo, pot. Meet kettle (he's black).
Snow_Fox
While you keep avoiding the salient point, you just look more and more desperate. I'LL try again. It may be more realistic, but it will not be less complicated. The sellnig point is that it is to be "streamlined" and fix rule lboat, but instead we are handed something even more complicated.
Sorry, we're not handed, you expect us to pay you for the insult.
Crimsondude 2.0
QUOTE (Nerbert)
Sure you can say that changing the number of possible values of x exponentially increases the number of combinations, which is technically true, but in reality, everyone knows not to use Edge, Resonance, Charisma, Intelligence or Strength for a firearms test.

"Everyone?"

Is this insider scoop?
Solstice
I give FanPro about 2 years max before they fold. I only wish there was a higher price to pay for destroying such a great game.


QUOTE (Arethusa @ Jun 2 2005, 10:39 PM)

[edit]

Snow:
Yo, pot.  Meet kettle (he's black).

Your pretty fond of that little rejoinder aren't you? You usually use it when you've just been verbally owned. grinbig.gif
frostPDP
Cuz I can't figure out quotes...

"At this point, its safe to say that SR4 bears no resemblance whatsoever to Vampire." - Nerbert.

A few quick citations from the article.

"Dice pools no longer exist in their SR3 form. They are now attriute + skill +/- modifiers." - Exact same mechanic for dice in V:TM, with the pseudo-exception of modifier.

"The rule of one (now called a glitch) is triggered more frequently, and may be triggered even when successful." - As later discussed, the chances of success versus botching have become far more severe. This is the same rule in VTM: Roll a 1, lose a success.

"The rule of six no longer appliex, except when you are using the new Edge attribute." - Same principle V:TM has. Except that instead of a specific skill that is allowed, in V:TM you get the chance to use specialties of your skills to allow re-rolls of 10's.

This may be a gamer-group specific system. I am no V:TM/WoD Rulebook. Fact is, when I played V:TM, this is how it worked. Soo yeah, that's too similar for my tastes.

"Resonance" - Okay, this one just doesn't make sense according to what's been released yet.

Regardless, to me the rules are not Shadowrun rules. Even if they haven't inhereted a V:TM feel, they are not the Shadowrun feel. This isn't a revision or streamlining, this is a re-making of the core mechanic for dice rolling both in terms of scores (no more re-rolls of 6's) and in terms of deriving the number of dice thrown. To me, its just different. It may be good, but its not the same game in mechanics - And its not looking like the same game in metaplot, which would be the death of it (C'mon, no deckers? A pseudo-astral computer network?)
Shadow
QUOTE (Nerbert @ Jun 2 2005, 07:17 PM)
At this point, its safe to say that SR4 bears no resemblance whatsoever to Vampire.

Thats funny, everyone who has had a look at the rules and has played Vampire has said the exact opposite. The Devs even said they were heavily influenced by vampire (mainly cause some of them worked on it).

I know your new to the boards but come on. Your only making yourself sound bad when you jump up and say "SR4 isn't gonna suck, well it isn't!"

Reminds me of this.
Moonstone Spider
QUOTE (Nerbert)
Sure you can say that changing the number of possible values of x exponentially increases the number of combinations, which is technically true, but in reality, everyone knows not to use Edge, Resonance, Charisma, Intelligence or Strength for a firearms test.

Actually I know of several RPG systems that use intelligence for your firearms. Nugget, for instance.

But I'm with Arethusa. More stats isn't inherently bad or more complicated. Otherwise the simplest and most streamlined system in the world would be Tri-Stat.

What bogs Shadowrun 3 down are all the exceptions to the rules and the variable mechanics.
Shadow
Its a balance for sure. But what Snow Fox is saying is true. A 10 stat system is going to be inherently more complicated than a 6 stat system. Just like a 6 stat system is more complicated than a 3 stat system.

Now they may make up for those complications in other areas (or they may make it worse like Tri-stat) but inherently it is more complicated based only on the fact that there are now more numbers and variables to calculate.

Now SR4 may be less complicated overall than SR3, but I would wager the stat part wont be.
Arethusa
QUOTE (Solstice @ Jun 3 2005, 12:05 AM)
QUOTE (Arethusa @ Jun 2 2005, 10:39 PM)

[edit]

Snow:
Yo, pot.  Meet kettle (he's black).

Your pretty fond of that little rejoinder aren't you? You usually use it when you've just been verbally owned. grinbig.gif

And this is apparently a very clever usage of 'owned' which with I was not previously familiar. Pray tell, how does one get owned when some girl stumbles all over her pronouns, throws out some insults, and implodes rather fantastically when it gets thrown back at her?

And, really, I'm not sure where you're getting the impression I say this a lot. Either you've got me mixed up with someone else or you just love being an ass.

QUOTE (Shadow)
Its a balance for sure. But what Snow Fox is saying is true. A 10 stat system is going to be inherently more complicated than a 6 stat system. Just like a 6 stat system is more complicated than a 3 stat system.

Which is nonsense. There is no guarantee that a 6 stat system presents more of a problem to play with than a 3 stat system. All other things being equal, yes, more stats means more complexity. However, streamlining does not mean you are simply hacking off chunks of your system to increase play speed. Reworking your game's overall design to be tighter and more intuitive can allow you to have lots of stats, lots of skills, and lots of rules and still play faster and more intelligently than a system half as big.
Nerbert
I'm an experienced Vampire Storyteller, I know what the fuck I'm talking about.

Vampire has two, yes two different character resources that can be spent, on the fly, to boost either defensive or offensive maneuvers. Willpower and Vitae. So far, and to the displeasure of nearly absolutely everyone, no such mechanic seems to exist for SR4.

Exploding dice are an absolutely unavoidable, unremovable mechanic of Vampire and the entire nWoD, and do not appear at all in SR4 except in relation to the oft' maligned Edge attribute, which we don't even know how it works. Comparing it to oWoD skill specialties is just inane!

Botching, in V:tM, specifically precluded being able to succeed at a roll. Glitching has explicitely been stated to trigger even in the event of a successful test result.

Shadowrun has no Morality mechanic, another extremely important part of Vampire.

And I don't even see why you'd bring V:tM into it at all! V:tM had variable TNs! The only reason anyone ever brought up how SR was like Vampire was because of the Fixed Tns.

So, perhaps you could tell me what the two games have in common besides a fixed target number and the "att+skill" mechanic?
Shadow
QUOTE (Arethusa @ Jun 2 2005, 08:25 PM)
And this is apparently a very clever usage of 'owned' which with I was not previously familiar.  Pray tell, how does one get owned when some girl stumbles all over her pronouns, throws out some insults, and implodes rather fantastically when it gets thrown back at her?

When she is right and you are wrong. smile.gif

And Nerbert, obviously you have a strange idea of no resemblance.

The Core mechanic, the part of the game engine that fuels the entire game is NEARLY identical. The big difference being a D10 instead of a D6. Now there are some other differences, and no one is denying that. But you said

"At this point, its safe to say that SR4 bears no resemblance whatsoever to Vampire."


A statement which is factually wrong. Thats all.
Shadow
QUOTE (Arethusa)
All other things being equal, yes, more stats means more complexity.

Which is exactly what Fox and I were talking about. And what I said in the rest of my paragraph that you quoted. You can make up for it in other ways but a 10 stat system will be inherently more complicated than a 6 stat.
Nerbert
Shadow, the same can be said of SR3 and V:tM. Variable TN multiple dice systems, one using d10s, the other, d6s. Would you say that the two bear a striking resemblence to each other?
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