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mfb
SR for xbox 360

QUOTE (Theron Benson @ FASA Studios animator)
Right now, I am animating for an Xbox 2 project called Shadowrun. It's a first-person shooter based on an old paper RPG of the same name from a couple decades ago.

i am certain that Mr. Benson will completely capture the look and feel of SR.

fistandantilus4.0
damn, and I'd resisted x-box all this time.

So what has Benson done before?
Critias
You mean before pooping in our mouths, just now? Couldn't tell ya.
Edward
SR as a first person shooter.

It sucks but I am not shore you could come up with anything much better. Trust nobody/you need these men to survive duality really doesnít strike me as something a computer can run well.

Edward
SL James
Hmm... Deus Ex with trolls...
ShadowDragon8685
The Sega game was a good SR game.

I'm quite sure they could've come up with something better than an FPS...

Like say, an RPG along the lines of Arcanum, if not an MMO?
Grinder
Hopefully it'll include a good multiplayer-option so you can play a runner team.
northern lights
i'm with you grinder.
Edward
Never played Arcanum.

You could wind up with some interesting multiplayer action along the lines of counterstrike. Did they ever get intelligent bot responses in that?

The part of SR that really gives it its flavor is legwork. And I donít think you can get a computer to do that well. Without the legwork its just a sneak and shoot fest.

It could work as a FPS the problem is making it real time. How long will it take to select a spell to cast or to change the firing mode on your SL2 equipped weapon (FPSs normally have 2 firing modes, the Aries Alfa has 4, many have 3). There has never been a real time RPG where I could select things like spells as fast as I felt I should be able to. (Diablo believe it or not came closesed being able to select several options quickly)

Edward
Sicarius
Its a roleplaying game.. Clearly the easiest way to convert it to a computer game would be by making it a rol... FIRST PERSON SHOOTER.

Demonseed Elite
All depends on how they do it. If it's like Deus Ex, I'm sold. Keep in mind he's an animator. They often do not know the design details of the game they are working on. Their job is to just animate, and that doesn't depend on what the gameplay details are.

Theron Benson doesn't have a lot of history. From what I can gather, I think he graduated from Vancouver Film School and went to work for Microsoft on the now-cancelled MMO, Mythica. Since that game got cancelled, there isn't much I can use as a guideline of his work, but he has some very simple animation samples here and here. After Mythica was cancelled and people were laid off, re-assigned, etc. he got shifted to the FASA Interactive cinematics team, which I imagine was where he was set to work on Shadowrun.
Critias
In all fairness, V:tM Bloodlines was a pretty decent game, and it's core engine was FPS.

I'm still not thrilled to see that's that SR is trying, though. I'd have much rather seen just about any other type of game than FPS for it. I guess FPS's are pretty "streamlined" though.
Demonseed Elite
"FPS" can also be a pretty broad term when coming out of the mouth of an animator. Like you mentioned, Bloodlines and also Deus Ex would both probably be considered FPS games to an animator, as far as their job is concerned.

But really, it's way too early for us to tell at this point. I wanna see a comment from a designer.
ShadowDragon8685
Firing modes. It depends on how cleverly they can work the controls. One option would be to use the mousewheel (everyone has a mouse with a wheel on it these days,) to select fire modes.

You could do the same for spells, but that would be a hell of a lot.

I think the best way, honestly, to do that would be to allow the player to pause the game and set his options. If he's manually selecting to change something, the changes execute in the order he agrees upon. IE: If he changes his Ingram Smartgun to firing in FA, and then wants to eject the clip and reload (both controls should be available for use during full-action play, but for the sake of the slowpokes amongst us, have everything manipulatable from a pause window,) then he would first use a simple action of about 1.5 seconds to flip the switch, another to eject the spent clip, and one to reload. If, on the other hand, he has a smartgun, the gun's fire mode changes instantly, and the clip falls out instantly as well, the only 1.5 seconds spent not involved in a phrenetic orgy of lead being the time it takes him to reload the clip.

And please, please PLEASE have the damn thing just COUNT the bullets remaining, and remember that there's a bullet in the chamber! If you reload with one in the pipe, you should have clip +1 ready, not clip!!! x.x >.<!!!!

Also, while reloading, if you're using a one handed gun, you should be able to fire that one in the pipe. That's always cheesed me off, the way you're stuck reloading. Especially if it's some funky rifle with ass-slow long reload animation.

What I wanna know is, how do they plan on handling PhysAds and Melee Sammies? To my knowledge, there's never been a truely successful first-person melee game. Sure, every damn FPS has a melee weapon, but it's never quite as good an experiance as a third person fighter.

Also, Deckers! Don't shaft the Decker, we're heart and soul of Shadowrun!
Backgammon
"from a couple decades ago"

Clearly this game is in good hands. The people in charge of it have made sure people working on it know what the game is in order to capture the feel of it. Yes.
Demonseed Elite
Yeah, clearly that comment indicates that he won't be able to animate properly. Because, y'know, limb movement has changed drastically in Shadowrun over the years!
ShadowDragon8685
Demonseed, please bear in mind the wide and diverse nature of cyberlimbs, obvious and otherwise. Such limbs that may be made to emulate human limbs, or incorporate Ingram Valiant LMGs. Who knows, some enterprising cyberdoc might come up with the equavilent of Omnitech cyberlimbs, so one day you can go from that fasionable "I use only Ares brand chrome polish, and my fingers never worked better" look to the "I'm an Elemental's younger, meaner brother" look. smile.gif
ShadowDragon8685
But yeah, I get you, Backie. I think the best way to make a videogame based off a PnP game is to sit EVERYONE involved down around a giant table, haul out copies of the core books, and run them through a good two month campaign. Let them experiance the scares and the thrills, the sick, cold, triumphant feeling when the DM tells you that your first Lone Star goes down under your perfectly placed and completely unstaged down shot from your Predator.

Then the cold, frightening sensation that you get when his ten buddies round the corner. smile.gif
Sicarius
You're presuming that they are gonna let you design your character? I hope!!!! (Fingers crossed) that you are right, but do you have a reason to expect this?
When I think FPS I think a generic Duke Nuke'em character, with no customization available.

The point was made that there are alot of games technically FPS from the animation point of view.

Are my fears needless?
Backgammon
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
Yeah, clearly that comment indicates that he won't be able to animate properly. Because, y'know, limb movement has changed drastically in Shadowrun over the years!

It indicates that no one has bothered to inform the staff woking on this project that "here are some links you can check out, and here's the rulebook for Shadowrun you can flip through". The guy is totally unaware SR still exsists. Unless his job is so far removed from needing ANY sort of understanding of what he's doing and he works independantly of anyone else on the project, I think it's fairly indicative that the project is NOT going to be Shadowrun as we know it. It's gonna be SR 1st ed.

Do you need toflip through the glossies in Seattle SB to remember why that's bad?
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE
But yeah, I get you, Backie. I think the best way to make a videogame based off a PnP game is to sit EVERYONE involved down around a giant table, haul out copies of the core books, and run them through a good two month campaign.


That might be ideal, but it's not going to happen. If anyone does that, it will be the designers. But video game designers also aren't trying to make a video game facsimile of the PnP product, they are trying to take an existing brand license and make it into a good video game.

Animators, though? It's not really going to happen. One of my best friends is an animator at Cyberlore Studios (he was an animator for Mechwarrior, actually, as well as Playboy: the Mansion...go figure). He gets models handed to him from the modellers and skinners and has to make an arm move a certain way, or the model walk. That's what he does. Serious depth into the history and themes of the game isn't really important to his job. Anatomy and mechanical motion are.
Jrayjoker
Ugh, how ummmm...unfortunate....that the developers......decade ago.......FPS.....................

The dots represent me editing all my evil words so I don't get arrested for terroristic threats.
Demonseed Elite
Also, don't forget the legal tangle that is Shadowrun's IP rights. Chances are, it's no coincidence that a Shadowrun XBox 360 game would be reminiscent of the old days of Shadowrun. That's the part that Microsoft owns the video game rights for. If they wanted to use anything recent, they'd have to negotiate with Wizkids/Topps, which is probably something they'd rather avoid.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)
Then the cold, frightening sensation that you get when his ten buddies round the corner. smile.gif

That sensation? That's called joy.

~J
nezumi
crazy question... Any chance of a PC version? I'm debating if I'd buy an SR game just because it's SR (to indicate 'yes, we are still alive!') but I'm not going to buy an XBox just to buy an SR game.
Demonseed Elite
Well, it's Microsoft. Meaning that if there is a PC version, I'd be surprised if we see it coming out simultaneously with the Xbox 360 version. Microsoft is big on exclusive XBox releases.
Edward
Sicarius makes a good point about character customizability. Traditionally FPS games have very poor selection of character traits, the best I ever saw was battlefield 1942 and then you could only choose from between 3 or 4 equipment loads.

Anotother point about magic (if a PC can get it) is that targeting is very different than firearms. The firearms skill in a FPS is adequately molded buy the player placing the dot on the target. This isnít much of a way to do magic tests as far as I can figure. Drain will also be a pain in the ass.

The pause to set variables works for single player (it was used in Baldurís gate) but in multiplayer it sucks as everybody will be pausing all the time. But without this it will be a tall order to set all the required values. It gets worst with a game pad instead of a keyboard no mouse weal for you)

Combat and spell pool can be set in advance as to how aggressive your going to be. Spell damage levels would have to be constant and spell defense thrown out the window.

Iím just glad that I will be able to ignore the computer game. There not my thing any more. Even if it was on PC (I own no consoles) and it was a reasonably good game I probably would not get it.

Edward
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Edward)
Sicarius makes a good point about character customizability. Traditionally FPS games have very poor selection of character traits, the best I ever saw was battlefield 1942 and then you could only choose from between 3 or 4 equipment loads.

Can we have a rule that no one is allowed to say "FPS doesn't work for this sort of game" until they've played Deus Ex at least once?

~J
Nikoli
Well, maybe when you hot key variable attacks like spells, you can set in the variables.

Chances are stun will be the regenerating "mana" of this system, where you can cast until you run out, then wait for it to refill, sustaning a spell temporarily lowers your overall quantity until the spell is dropped and then it refills back to the normal position.

They'll want to streamline as much as possible and keep game play smooth.
Velocity
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Can we have a rule that no one is allowed to say "FPS doesn't work for this sort of game" until they've played Deus Ex at least once?

Hear, hear. Deus Ex was a great game that's aged gracefully. It was released in 2000 and even though my partner & I played it at the time (and finished it), we decided to play it again last year; we were stunned at how well it had held up. For the uninitiated:

QUOTE
The world is in chaos. Terrorists roam the streets. The reemergence of an ancient secret society bent on world domination. Playing as rookie UNATCO agent J.C. Denton, you will use your nanotech-enhanced body and mind to fight the enemy in this Unreal engine-based action/RPG hybrid. Denton improves his skills, receives additional bionic enhancements and plays with many sorts of equipment as the game develops. The intriguing story takes you from New York to Hong Kong, from Paris to secret labs, for over seventy hours of exploration. A software development kit has even been released so people can develop their own adventures.


The storyline is even more interesting in the era of the USAPATRIOT Act, the Neocons pissing contest with the UN, quasi-militias taking over border patrols in Texas, etc. Great game.
Jrayjoker
Great, now somone is gonna stomp in here and bitch about politics at you. Don't say I didn't warn you.
sanctusmortis
Don't forget he said the magic words: he's working WITH THE FASA TEAM on the new SR game at MGS.

Yes, MS bought the people who made the Mechwarrior games. And they're good games. The MechAssault games are some of the best Live enabled games there are. It's a sort of "Mechwarrior 3 for simpletons".

As for firing modes, well, I imagine it'll work the same as Conker on the Xbox: hold down the mode selector button, it brings up a menu of them, pick one and let go, et voila! Spells could work in a similar vein, and so there are the worst problems.

What I worry about is capturing the feel of a run. Hopefully, the old FASA boys know what they're doing.

Hell, I'll probably buy it anyway.
Velocity
QUOTE (Jrayjoker)
Great, now somone is gonna stomp in here and bitch about politics at you. Don't say I didn't warn you.

Aw, c'mon--I went out of my way to be as neutral as my Soviet-Canuckistanian sensibilities would permit. wink.gif

QUOTE (sanctusmortis)
What I worry about is capturing the feel of a run.

They could take some hints from the Rainbow Six series, with its squad-level planning sessions. Your 'fellow runners' could be AI-controlled and follow your orders as you go...
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Velocity)
Deus Ex was a great game that's aged gracefully.

It's a good thing that it aged gracefully, as the engine sucked pretty badly when it came out. A shining example of how a game can still be amazing with a bad engine.

(Before anyone says "graphics don't matter", the game had no dynamic lighting. If you turned on your eye-light system, certain prearranged points would become lit while everything else stayed dark, regardless of where you happened to be looking. If you were looking somewhere there wasn't a "light point", tough luck. Quake II had managed this, but apparently it was a bit much for the Unreal engine. It definitely held the game back, but not enough to keep it from being utterly amazing.)

~J
Smiley
I find myself in the same emotional state I was in when the Star Wars prequels were released. I really, really hope it doesn't suck... but I'm pretty sure it will disappoint me. <Sigh.>
Aku
remember, this is xbox 360, the next gen offering from 'soft, due out, if i remember, this holiday season. But, as for a PC version, i would be surprised if they didnt, as it IS microsoft, although it might not happen right away.

with that said, i as well, am fearful of "FPS", however, with that said, from an ANIMATORS POV, Marrowind COULD be seen as a First Person (shooter), and that, IMO, can be a good thing.

Oh, and legwork is SO possible in a video game these days, all it would really take is for all characters that are contacts to be flagged as such, and a set of dialouge that is garuntee'd to show up on one of them for every mission, that will "kickstart" you around visiting a bunch of people that slowly or quickly leak out information to them.
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE
Yes, MS bought the people who made the Mechwarrior games. And they're good games. The MechAssault games are some of the best Live enabled games there are. It's a sort of "Mechwarrior 3 for simpletons".


I'm really curious about who is involved, exactly. I assume FASA Interactive is involved, since Theron Benson supposedly directly works with them. FASA Interactive is basically a wholly-owned branch of Microsoft Games.

Day 1 Studios might also be involved. They are an independent studio with very close development ties to Microsoft (they did MechAssault for the XBox). Their founder and president is one of the seriously old school FASA guys, I believe, from back when the SR print RPG was made to help fund the Battletech simulators. Denny Thorley (the Day 1 CEO) was also involved in the Shadowrun SNES game.

And then there's been old rumors that Bungie might have originally been working on a Shadowrun game that was cancelled so they could focus on Halo 2.
JesterX
Here, look at this:

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/635/635071p1.html
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
Bungie might have originally been working on a Shadowrun game that was cancelled so they could focus on Halo 2.

Speak ye not ill of the dead.

~J
Gauvain
To further the Bloodlines comparison, maybe it would be better without any multiplayer. Then there is a lot more flexibility for abilities. Anyone care to guess what Wires Reflexes would do to a good counterstrike game? Smartgun link? How would these abilities affect the other players? Not like you could have everyone moving at slow motion like you do in single player.

We'll have to see, but I find myself agreeing with the trepidation ala Star Wars 1-3
SL James
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Jul 20 2005, 07:34 AM)
Also, don't forget the legal tangle that is Shadowrun's IP rights.  Chances are, it's no coincidence that a Shadowrun XBox 360 game would be reminiscent of the old days of Shadowrun.  That's the part that Microsoft owns the video game rights for.  If they wanted to use anything recent, they'd have to negotiate with Wizkids/Topps, which is probably something they'd rather avoid.

Oh, that makes it so much better.

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (Edward @ Jul 20 2005, 09:31 AM)
Sicarius makes a good point about character customizability. Traditionally FPS games have very poor selection of character traits, the best I ever saw was battlefield 1942 and then you could only choose from between 3 or 4 equipment loads.

Can we have a rule that no one is allowed to say "FPS doesn't work for this sort of game" until they've played Deus Ex at least once?

That's the problem. Deus Ex already exists.

But, for me... Meh

I'd rather expect crap and be impressed than have high hopes for a game that would then make me want to rip out my own eyeballs.
Velocity
QUOTE (Edward)
Traditionally FPS games have very poor selection of character traits, the best I ever saw was battlefield 1942 and then you could only choose from between 3 or 4 equipment loads.
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Can we have a rule that no one is allowed to say "FPS doesn't work for this sort of game" until they've played Deus Ex at least once?
QUOTE (SL James)
That's the problem. Deus Ex already exists.

I think that what Kag was trying to say is that many people were discounting the FPS as a viable genre for the purposes of emulating Shadowrun without first having played a game that allowed for considerably more customization and free-form gameplay than most of its peers.
SL James
Yeah, I understood his point.

My point was exactly that: There is a Deus Ex already. Aspects of it are now part of Shadowrun. It's going to be the standard by which a Shadowrun game is judged because it's been out for around five years and incorporates many SR-ish elements.
Velocity
Ah, I understand. You're probably right, but what can you do? Comparisons are inevitable. Hopefully the developers will anticipate those parallels and aim to surpass Deus Ex.
Mr. Man
QUOTE (JesterX)
Here, look at this:

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/635/635071p1.html

From the link:

QUOTE (IGN hack)
The statement appears to be an unofficial announcement of the revival of Shadowrun exclusively for the Xbox 360.


Except for the fact that there is nothing in said statement to indicate that the title will be exclusive to Xbox 360.

I've got a bad feeling about this. Expecting a console game to be similar to Deus Ex is like expecting your next Burger King combo to consist of steak and champagne. Doesn't anyone remember Deus Ex: Invisible War?

On the other hand: No matter how bad it is, at least it isn't an MMORPG.
hobgoblin
*points people towards the hellgate:london fps/rpg hybrid coming out for the pc*

oh and if you want a fun cyberpunk fps that behaves a good deal like cs, look up public enemy. its quite nice in a way alltho the cyberware have more in common with the old syndicate (cyberarms, cyberlegs, cybertorso, cyberhead and so on) then with cyberpunk or shadowrun.

and did people notice how the quote from the animator makes it sound as if shadowrun was long dead?

QUOTE
It's a first-person shooter based on an old paper RPG of the same name from a couple decades ago.
SL James
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
and did people notice how the quote from the animator makes it sound as if shadowrun was long dead?

QUOTE
It's a first-person shooter based on an old paper RPG of the same name from a couple decades ago.

Several people have.
Caine Hazen
Didn't I go over this a few years ago grinbig.gif the paper trail for the Srun video game on XboX has been around forever. If you look at the run of FPS on the XboX you'll see they all have the same feel...and I hate em. There likely will be no character dev, no good puzzels, ...likely a dragged through story arc with a street sam as the main toon. Also look for the Shadowrun Duels characters to make appearinces, cause they were in part originally created to support this venture...

also as I've stated before...MS + XboX = no more computer games...so don't look for one. Sad really. and it's day 1 studios who have been doing dev on this...not Bungie

I'd rant more...but if you wanna know, do a search, I've got plenty of Srun video game rants out there on this site
Sicarius
QUOTE
I think that what Kag was trying to say is that many people were discounting the FPS as a viable genre for the purposes of emulating Shadowrun without first having played a game that allowed for considerably more customization and free-form gameplay than most of its peers.


I haven't played Deus Ex, but I respect the opinions of those who have said good things about it. I think the point myself and others (Edwards for instance) were making is that the features which you suggest make Deus Ex good (customization, etc) are the exception, rather than the rule in FPS.

I don't think I'm alone when I state that I play roleplaying games not to play A character, but to play MY character. That feeling is difficult to achieve in MANY FPS, although Deus Ex is probably an exception, based on what some have expressed. I would hope that a S-Run game would also prove an exception
Mortax
Personally, I think they should do it like Fallout:Tactics. You can have teams, single operative, and the initative system is similar to SR. You can also incorperate legwork, team coordination, tactics. Plus, the Fallout series rocks. smile.gif
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