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Sabosect
I sure as hell hope they produce one. Otherwise, they're going to lose most of the audience they gain right off the bat when these people see how much math they have to do. I lost DnD players because of math, and that requires less than this does.
Connor
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
The thing that gets my goat is the gear. First item, actually—"we're gonna be kewl and call the OS a random Japanese word, even if it makes no sense!"

~J

I just took as a take on Ichi-ban, meaning in this context "The Best OS".
imperialus
one other thing to remember is that the pregen characters have never been too terribly spectacular from a stats point of view. This is probably to keep inexperianced GM's from being overwhelemed by perfectly designed characters.

I mean quite frankly who here would ever play the troll ganger from the 3rd ed sourcebook, or the Orc combat decker from the same, or the elven street sam from the second ed street sam catolouge?
Sabosect
I think the "Ichi" is meant to indicate it as the first OS of the new Matrix. Considering how young this one is, the first OS for it would still likely be the most common one. Renraku is probably the company that got the OS developped first.

Just a wild guess, of course.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Dashifen)
With that it mind, anyone heard mention of an SR4 character generator?

Depending on the complexity involved, I may write one as training for my SR3 vehicle generator project.

~J
Gambitt
QUOTE (imperialus)
?one other thing to remember is that the pregen characters have never been too terribly spectacular from a stats point of view.  This is probably to keep inexperianced GM's from being overwhelemed by perfectly designed characters.

I mean quite frankly who here would ever play the troll ganger from the 3rd ed sourcebook, or the Orc combat decker from the same, or the elven street sam from the second ed street sam catolouge

QUOTE


I Agree
Yoan
QUOTE (NeoJudas @ Aug 17 2005, 10:28 AM)
I admit I'm intrigued, and after reading everyone's comments herein (especially Ellery's analysis a few pages ago) I have to say ... "yep, they finally get their street game".  Seriously, FanPro US has been saying for quite a while now that they never liked the truly "Epic" or "Powermonger" gaming and have been looking for a way to downpower literally everything.


Ahh, finally.
Athenor
QUOTE (Sabosect)
I think the "Ichi" is meant to indicate it as the first OS of the new Matrix. Considering how young this one is, the first OS for it would still likely be the most common one. Renraku is probably the company that got the OS developped first.

Just a wild guess, of course.

Oh, I -LIKE- this concept.

It would be so awesome if they took some of the more hardcore elements from VR2.0 // Matrix, and applied them to the base game. Namely: Custom OS's and programs.

It's very believable that REnraku would still be kicking around. Oh, sure, they may have inadventantly caused the Matrix to die.. but they may also have been in an excellent position to capitalize on it.

But yeah... what I more infer from this is simple: The Matrix 2.0 isn't standarized in its presentation and systems yet. Hell.. I wouldn't be surprised if some areas aren't even fully up to even the baseline standarization (such as Chicago, although the wireless is going to help there). What this means is that your OS (Be it bought or customized) is going to dictate how well you run in some areas, how you see the new augmented reality, and how powerful/fast you'll be running.

It truly is a cool thought... what that lack of standardization could means in terms of corp runs...

Just picture it: You're running a mission against Yamatestu for Renraku.. deep in one of their facilities... When their security decker decides to shut down the processes that allow the various OS's to talk to each other and operate together... Effectively cutting off the decker from the access he previously had....


... er.. you get the idea. =P
Taran
QUOTE (imperialus)
one other thing to remember is that the pregen characters have never been too terribly spectacular from a stats point of view.  This is probably to keep inexperianced GM's from being overwhelemed by perfectly designed characters.

I mean quite frankly who here would ever play the troll ganger from the 3rd ed sourcebook, or the Orc combat decker from the same, or the elven street sam from the second ed street sam catolouge?

Quoted because it's the point I came in here to make. Every single one of the SR3 archetypes was seriously misbuilt in some way, and I think it's reasonable to assume that SR4 will carry on that fine tradition. In fact, it's probably worse for this character than for most: she was explicitly designed to be versatile, and in this game versatility means having more ways to suck.

<on topic>
I also like the artwork, but I have to wonder: where is she keeping all that stuff? Maybe she's pulling a Highlander with her katanas, but then where does the combat axe go?
</on topic>
Athenor
QUOTE (Taran)
<on topic>
I also like the artwork, but I have to wonder: where is she keeping all that stuff? Maybe she's pulling a Highlander with her katanas, but then where does the combat axe go?
</on topic>

Dude, there's a paper target behind her.

She's obviously at home... IE practicing, and not needing -every- weapon.

And besides: If my walking arsenal started hauling around things that would make the characters from Resident Evil or Doom jealous, I'd start penalizing them heavily. My runners (Back when I had them, before I moved) learned the joys of a car's trunk.
blakkie
QUOTE (Taran)
QUOTE (imperialus)
one other thing to remember is that the pregen characters have never been too terribly spectacular from a stats point of view.  This is probably to keep inexperianced GM's from being overwhelemed by perfectly designed characters.

I mean quite frankly who here would ever play the troll ganger from the 3rd ed sourcebook, or the Orc combat decker from the same, or the elven street sam from the second ed street sam catolouge?

Quoted because it's the point I came in here to make. Every single one of the SR3 archetypes was seriously misbuilt in some way, and I think it's reasonable to assume that SR4 will carry on that fine tradition. In fact, it's probably worse for this character than for most: she was explicitly designed to be versatile, and in this game versatility means having more ways to suck.

We can only hope that the accuracy of the BP for the SR4 sample characters is more accurate than the build costs for the SR3 characters. Some of them were incorrect even after errataed. Not horribly so, just a few points or few thousand nuyen.gif off here and there.
Sabosect
I thought a car's trunk was where you stored the minigun and rocket launchers.
blakkie
QUOTE (Sabosect @ Aug 17 2005, 11:15 AM)
I thought a car's trunk was where you stored the minigun and rocket launchers.

Yah, the katana and baseball bat get tucked up under the seat.
Jrayjoker
I am guessing there will not be one in SR4 officially, but the NSRCG could be an excellent template for the new system.
Eldritch
Wow, now that picture is cool smile.gif
Homme-qui-rigole
QUOTE (Jrayjoker)
Regarding the language - Arabic - N

If it is native language then they got her ethnicity down pat. Very well drawn.

Shut off with your fucking racism, asshole
Demonseed Elite
O_o
Rev
That is a very pretty page all around with a great image.
Athenor
QUOTE (blakkie)
QUOTE (Sabosect @ Aug 17 2005, 11:15 AM)
I thought a car's trunk was where you stored the minigun and rocket launchers.

Yah, the katana and baseball bat get tucked up under the seat.

Under the back seat's for dwarf-specific gear, as that's usually where they ride.

Katana's are strapped to the side of the front seat, or placed similar to a nightstick.

I can't figure out where to put the grenades off the top of my head, though. I'm thinking in the glove compartment... (off topic: For the love of Elune, make the chunky salsa rules simpler to work out on the fly...)
blakkie
QUOTE (Eldritch)
Wow, now that picture is cool smile.gif

I think it is one of Micheal Komarck's, comparing it to his web portfolio. Just from the way the view is angled and the style. My favourites in SR3 were in the sample character pics too. I'm glad to see they aren't wasting their full colour pages.
Sabosect
QUOTE (Homme-qui-rigole)
QUOTE (Jrayjoker @ Aug 17 2005, 02:29 PM)
Regarding the language - Arabic - N

If it is native language then they got her ethnicity down pat. Very well drawn.

Shut off with your fucking racism, asshole

I see nothing in his post that indicates racism. If he had been racist, he would have called her an American, simply because the stereotype is that Americans like guns. Now, if she had been a demolitions expert, you might have a point.
Athenor
QUOTE (Sabosect)
QUOTE (Homme-qui-rigole @ Aug 17 2005, 12:22 PM)
QUOTE (Jrayjoker @ Aug 17 2005, 02:29 PM)
Regarding the language - Arabic - N

If it is native language then they got her ethnicity down pat. Very well drawn.

Shut off with your fucking racism, asshole

I see nothing in his post that indicates racism. If he had been racist, he would have called her an American, simply because the stereotype is that Americans like guns. Now, if she had been a demolitions expert, you might have a point.

Wow, completely missed -that- small exchange... O_O

You know, within a few more generations the lines between ethnicity are gonna be blurred quite a bit...

I can explain Arabic being her native language easily if need be: The granddaughter of a soldier fighting in the Iraqi peacekeeping force who decided to stay in the region after his tour was up... Yet she was forced to leave at a young age with her parents back to America, due to the wars that were blowing up again in the middle east, not to mention the dragons.
blakkie
QUOTE (Homme-qui-rigole)
QUOTE (Jrayjoker @ Aug 17 2005, 02:29 PM)
Regarding the language - Arabic - N

If it is native language then they got her ethnicity down pat. Very well drawn.

Shut off with your fucking racism, asshole

I think he ment from the visual clues of her skin tone and facial profile. At least that is how i took it. *shrug* She looks to have a vaguely semitic or arabic genetic heritage.
Sabosect
Guys, I think the Welter is that rifle she's holding. And I think it's an assault-style rifle.
blakkie
QUOTE (Sabosect)
Guys, I think the Welter is that rifle she's holding. And I think it's an assault-style rifle.

I believe that the Walther MA-2100 is a SA or SS bolt-action sniper rifle (4 round magazine), and that could indeed be the one she is holding. But the weapon wizards around here are much better folks to make that call.
Gambitt
QUOTE (Homme-qui-rigole)
QUOTE (Jrayjoker @ Aug 17 2005, 02:29 PM)
Regarding the language - Arabic - N

If it is native language then they got her ethnicity down pat. Very well drawn.

Shut off with your fucking racism, asshole

QUOTE


Paranoia at its worst, people who jump to conclusions like that are often the people who cause the most damage.

Back on topic, the artwork is great, ive compared the 3rd and 4th edition weaps specialist pictures, and the new editions looks way better to me.
Sabosect
QUOTE (blakkie @ Aug 17 2005, 12:47 PM)
QUOTE (Sabosect @ Aug 17 2005, 11:41 AM)
Guys, I think the Welter is that rifle she's holding. And I think it's an assault-style rifle.

I believe that the Walther MA-2100 is a SA or SS bolt-action sniper rifle (4 round magazine), and that could indeed be the one she is holding. But the weapon wizards around here are much better folks to make that call.

Well, ignoring that it calls the gun a "Welter MA-2100", I don't think it's a sniper rifle. Mainly because of the amount of clips she's carrying for it. It looks more like a case of a rifle intended for frontline action with the amount of ammo she's carrying. And I'll bet money the Fubuki is either a machine pistol or a SMG.

Edit: The other reason I don't believe it's a sniper rifle is how she's holding it. You don't hold a gun with an attached scope that way if you don't want to spend time realigning the scope. I honestly doubt that little problem will be fixed in 65 years when it hasn't been in the last 20.
Darkness
In my PDF it says "Walter MA-2100", and that was always a Sniper Rifle. Maybe she holds the Yamaha Sakura Fubuki behind her head and the Ares Predator IV before her belly.
Sabosect
Nope. That gun's too big to be the Fubuki. The Fubuki comes with a concealable holster.

The problem is that she's holding it wrong for it to be a sniper rifle and it's too big to be anything but the Walter.

Edit: I adjusted the size a bit and got a clearer picture of the letter.
Darkness
Ah. Right you are.
Ellery
I'm not sure why one would expect the guns to match up--artwork takes time, and not everything you write on a sheet necessarily looks good. If there is a match, I'd expect it to be because the sheet was adjusted based on how the picture turned out, not vice versa. But every adjustment takes time, and this is something that tends to be in short supply before a release.
Sabosect
At the very least, they should be able to tell the artist "The character is drawing a pistol and holding a sniper rifle."
blakkie
QUOTE (Sabosect @ Aug 17 2005, 11:55 AM)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Aug 17 2005, 12:47 PM)
QUOTE (Sabosect @ Aug 17 2005, 11:41 AM)
Guys, I think the Welter is that rifle she's holding. And I think it's an assault-style rifle.

I believe that the Walther MA-2100 is a SA or SS bolt-action sniper rifle (4 round magazine), and that could indeed be the one she is holding. But the weapon wizards around here are much better folks to make that call.

Well, ignoring that it calls the gun a "Welter MA-2100", I don't think it's a sniper rifle. Mainly because of the amount of clips she's carrying for it. It looks more like a case of a rifle intended for frontline action with the amount of ammo she's carrying. And I'll bet money the Fubuki is either a machine pistol or a SMG.

Edit: The other reason I don't believe it's a sniper rifle is how she's holding it. You don't hold a gun with an attached scope that way if you don't want to spend time realigning the scope. I honestly doubt that little problem will be fixed in 65 years when it hasn't been in the last 20.

The first point about the number of clips, i don't agree so much. The box clips are low round count. I seem to remember 4, but it could be 5 or 6.

The second point i agree with more-so, although maybe she's training with iron sights? I don't remember that being an option, but it could be artistic license? The weapon pictured does appear to have an iron sight in place, at least at the muzzle. *shrug* I seem to remember that the RL rifle it is based on is supposity quite durable for it's type.

The Walther MA 2100 is a fictional SR weapon that is definately a sniper rifle. Spelling is now intentionally incorrect due to copyright problems? Or maybe just a typo. The MA-2100 IIRC is based roughly on extrapolating from the Walther WA-2000, which bears at least a passing similarity to the one she is carrying. I don't see a large clip coming from the bottom of the weapon which you'd expect to find on a FA assult rifle, unless she has pulled the clip of course.

P.S. She is at a firing range, and we do know she crosstrains across the breadth of small arms. So maybe she rented something for the day to practice with. *shrug*
Sabosect
Which makes me think the Walter MA-2100 is either a misspelling, a respelling due to copyright issues, or an entirely different gun. Considering those five years, I would say that it is entirely possible this is an entirely different gun from what we are used to.

As for FA weapons: Depends on bullet size for clip size. Looks to me like it has an area that can potentially be devoted to large clips but lacks one.
blakkie
Ok, it definately is suppose to be a Walther MA-2100. CC, page 21 is where it is listed. It has a built in SL standard, so with her SL system she is likely not using a scope (even though that might not make min-max rules sense). It is that fat underneath because it has a built-in 10 round magazine. It also specifically states there that it is "reliable and free of the design instablities common to other sniper rifles." I guess meaning it isn't quite as easily mucked up when you get down and dirty?
Sabosect
Blakkie, you just effectively proved that this isn't the same gun as that. Unless they've seriously modified it. After all, I never heard of an internal magazine requiring spare clips.

Other signs it is likely to not be the same gun is the fact she's using an Pred 4, something that is obviously commonly available in this edition without existing in previous ones.
Athenor
You know, I just realized: That "Allergy: Seawater" makes a ton of sense...

I mean.. Assume she is an Arabian elf... What if, growing up, she never came near the sea? I know, as a born and bred Midwestern, that when I visit my Aunt in Boston I get kinda a tingling sensation from the air, and I've never been in true seawater in my life...

But having that kind of allergy would slow her down in coastal areas, just slightly, due to how seawater interacts with the local atmosphere...

.... Or am I just completely off-base and looking for ways to screw over players already? Good god, I haven't GM'ed in so long, this is making me excited...
mmu1
QUOTE (Sabosect @ Aug 17 2005, 02:49 PM)
Blakkie, you just effectively proved that this isn't the same gun as that. Unless they've seriously modified it. After all, I never heard of an internal magazine requiring spare clips.

M1 Garand, for example. I'm sure some of the local gun nuts can come up with more. wink.gif
Sabosect
QUOTE (mmu1 @ Aug 17 2005, 01:54 PM)
QUOTE (Sabosect @ Aug 17 2005, 02:49 PM)
Blakkie, you just effectively proved that this isn't the same gun as that. Unless they've seriously modified it. After all, I never heard of an internal magazine requiring spare clips.

M1 Garand, for example. I'm sure some of the local gun nuts can come up with more. wink.gif

Would be nice, except this is Shadowrun. They don't do logical things like that. nyahnyah.gif

'member: Unless I specify reality, I'm talking SR when it comes to this crap.
Jrayjoker
QUOTE (blakkie)
QUOTE (Homme-qui-rigole @ Aug 17 2005, 11:22 AM)
QUOTE (Jrayjoker @ Aug 17 2005, 02:29 PM)
Regarding the language - Arabic - N

If it is native language then they got her ethnicity down pat. Very well drawn.

Shut off with your fucking racism, asshole

I think he ment from the visual clues of her skin tone and facial profile. At least that is how i took it. *shrug* She looks to have a vaguely semitic or arabic genetic heritage.

Yes. That, and only that, was my intent.

@ Homme-qui-rigole, sorry if I offended you in any way, but people do look like their ethnic group in most cases.
Jrayjoker
If you can't see what I mean, then there is nothing I can do.
blakkie
QUOTE (Sabosect @ Aug 17 2005, 12:49 PM)
Blakkie, you just effectively proved that this isn't the same gun as that. Unless they've seriously modified it. After all, I never heard of an internal magazine requiring spare clips.

They could be talking about packages of 10 rounds, the notation is an oversight. Or they have slightly modified it from SR3 to SR4 to have it take removable clips. Apparently also Availability isn't what it used to be, either with the weapon or in general. Actually i'm thinking likely in general since weren't rocket launchers usually beyond canon starting characters? Spike disposable launchers in the CC are Avail. 10/1 week.

Sharing the "MA 2100" part of the designation can't be just sheer coincidence.

QUOTE
Other signs it is likely to not be the same gun is the fact she's using an Pred 4, something that is obviously commonly available in this edition without existing in previous ones.


I don't follow you there? Because it use to be listed in the CC it can't be in the BBB? Or because the moved from Predator III to Predator IV none of the old weapons are going to be included?
Sabosect
Depends on the rocket launcher. There were three you could get at chargen. I'm thinking that, in any case, we're not looking at much of the SR we know surviving. And, I doubt the MA-2100 is coincidence. But, at the same time, I have to wonder if it is intended to harken back to what we know or to indicate an advancement of something else. Hell, I'm not even going to guess what the allergies do with all the changes they've made.

The weapon move itself indicates to me that we are probably going to be dealing with far more new material in the area of equipment than old. Basically put, I think that this SR will require us to move away from what we know in many areas and adapt to changes in the areas we do. To be blunt, I'm already having to adapt to changes and I'm no longer sure I like some of them.
Blacken
From what I'm seeing, I really don't like this.

First off, major kudos to the folks who did a mathematical analysis of the character sheet. Never have so few extrapolated so much...or something. I'm tired, my quote-generator function isn't working.

Now for concerns. While I realize this character is supposed to be a "weapon specialist," and I know very well of the time-honored SR tradition of adaptability meaning multiple ways to suck, looking at some things still concern me. This gal has a total of five Knowledge skills, totaling 15 points (and kick in the 3 for English for 18). That's surprisingly low. Also--they have to be retooling how skills work more. Please. Tell me they are. Because elf-gun-chick here has 18 active skill points outside of weapon groups. This strikes me as a very low number of skill points when translated to SR3 (disclaimer: my games tend to be professional-to-epic).

I dunno. It just seems like FanPro listened to the players very attentively and then did exactly the opposite of what they wanted...
Sabosect
Nah. They did what WotC does. They listened to the vocal minority and didn't bother to ask the majority. If they had, they would have tooled it in such a way as to allow for all levels without the requirement of adjustment. As it stands, my typical NPC should be able to beat the players unconcious and sell them as sex slaves.
Nerbert
Just FYI, Dumpshock here is the minority.
Jrayjoker
QUOTE (Nerbert)
Just FYI, Dumpshock here is the minority.

But the rabid-fanboy minority! twirl.gif
nezumi
If your only complaint is PCs being underpowered, there's a pretty easy way to fix that with point-buy. Simply give them more points. As long as they've tested the game with higher power characters, the fact that your starting level characters are weaker is actually a good thing. After all, with SR3it gets very hard to play it with a group of 60 BP characters, but with 200 BP characters it's much easier.

So now we can do a street campaign or a high-level campaign much easier (in theory).
Blacken
Yeah, Dumpshock's probably the minority (okay, definitely)--but they're also the most dedicated players. But hey, we looove spreading the brand. (Only halfway sarcastic there, heh heh.)
Nikoli
But, on the Q&A area, they used to point people from official site here to DS, for better or worse, DSF is a resource for players to get answers questioned.
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