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| QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
| attacker rolls attrib+skill vs 5 - dice for diffrent modifying elements. the weapon have a fixed starting damage + 1 pr hit on the test. defender dodge roll. armor reduce said damage - the weapons armor penetration (yes check it out, there seems to be a stat for that now. its there on the char sheet). defender then most likely rolls damage resistance on the remaining damage. damage reduced by 1 pr hit on test. |
It seems unlikely to me that defenders get damage reduction, and then two resistance rolls vs. only one attack roll.
| QUOTE (Sabosect) | ||
It comes from this:
|
hmm, sounds more like something i would use for a "fix the door lock so we can get the hell out of here" kinda test. set the number high and then let the person do x number of tests, each eating away Y time.
| QUOTE (Nerbert) | ||
It seems unlikely to me that defenders get damage reduction, and then two resistance rolls vs. only one attack roll. |
im guessing that the dodge test will be a all or nothing thing. as in, roll above the number of hits the attacker got no take the full attack. as dodge is now a active skill rather then a way to use combat pool, i dont think the outcome of the test will carry over to the damage resistance test.
| QUOTE (Sabosect @ Aug 17 2005, 04:05 PM) |
| Now, consider what Ellery said. If I hate you in SR, I give you a TN of 30 or higher. You can actually hit that with only one die. However, in this game, I give you a Threshhold of, say, 12. You need 36 dice (!) to hit that reliably. |
Calculate the number of dice you need on average to hit TN 30.
Compare it to 36. Have fun.
Most math (if not all) you did in this thread is naive fallacy.
If you really think that rules should protect you from your GM then you should go somewhere else and not play any RPGs.
@Ellery: Your calculation of darkness hit chance is correct, but you forgot to calculate one thing: You only calculated the chance to hit reduction and not the overall damage reduction.
The Super Ki Adept may still hit msot of the time, but he might kill outright in good light and barley scratch in darkness.
This of course depends on the model how damage is graded up/down by good/poor hits.
It all comes down to the overall "good light vs darkness" performance. Not just the chance to hit.
| QUOTE (Serbitar) |
| You only calculated the chance to hit reduction and not the overall damage reduction. This of course depends on the model how damage is graded up/down by good/poor hits. |
Of course--but I don't have the damage model handy yet, so I left it out. In any case, hitting is always better than not hitting, so the relative rate of hitting between the different people is still an issue, even if the darkness does matter.
It's quite likely that the damage model will accentuate the problem, since the models that I can think of that help fix it would cause other problems that are serious for the intended number of dice as demonstrated by this archetype, or would run contrary to the stated design goals.
It's quite likely that the damage model will accentuate the problem, since the models that I can think of that help fix it would cause other problems that are serious for the intended number of dice as demonstrated by this archetype, or would run contrary to the stated design goals.
| QUOTE (Serbitar) | ||
Calculate the number of dice you need on average to hit TN 30. Compare it to 36. Have fun. Most math (if not all) you did in this thread is naive fallacy. If you really think that rules should protect you from your GM then you should go somewhere else and not play any RPGs. |
Well, it would help if you didn't pull the fallacy of editting what I said. As it is, your point doesn't stand out that well when compared to the full statement.
| QUOTE |
| Now, consider what Ellery said. If I hate you in SR, I give you a TN of 30 or higher. You can actually hit that with only one die. However, in this game, I give you a Threshhold of, say, 12. You need 36 dice (!) to hit that reliably. This is also ignoring one item the FAQs say, in that some modifiers affect the TN. So, that Threshhold of 12 can also come with a TN of 6. Pretty impossible to hit. Especially if you only have 6 dice to do it with. |
Now, we already know my comments about TN are wrong. However, that doesn't mean you pull the logical fallacy of automatically ignoring everything once I bring up the TNs. Here's how you should have looked at it:
| QUOTE |
| Now, consider what Ellery said. If I hate you in SR, I give you a TN of 30 or higher. You can actually hit that with only one die. However, in this game, I give you a Threshhold of, say, 12. You need 36 dice (!) to hit that reliably. Pretty impossible to hit. Especially if you only have 6 dice to do it with. |
Now, let's examine this post logically.
It's pretty obvious that the chances of hitting a 30 are pretty damned high. High enough the post did not feel the need to include them. However, the poster does point out something: You can hit a 30 with only one die to work with. That comment comes to importance at the end, when the poster brings up having 6 dice to work with. Why is it important? Because the poster is, at that point, talking about it as impossible to use to get 12 successes.
Now, comparing the chances of getting a 30 with one die to getting 12 successes with 6 die comes out to the 30 being more likely than the 12, based on current information. In fact, the 12 successes are pretty much impossible.
Now, let's look at something else: The comment about protecting the players from the GM. A logical conclusion would be that this person, who is themselves an admitted GM in a game that has frequent player death, is not a fan of the possible abuses this system creates, in that it creates numbers that are impossible to reach. This, combined towards earlier complaints, suggests someone who favors a more balanced and adaptive system and is simply pointing out problems they see with it. What little there is to suggest this player may want a game that protects them from GMs is balanced out by the fact they are a GM themselves and it is the only area of the book in which the character complains about potential GM abuses, in spite of the fact the player can easily complain about the point system being utilized by GMs to force their players into playing the weakest characters imaginable.
Now, your final item: You claim the math made is naive. Well, I don't claim to be a math wiz, but at the same time I ask you to prove that statement. Mainly, start by finding where I did actual math at. The one area you already brought up is invalid, even though you will find it again earlier in this thread, because it has already been dealt with.
Okay, something else I noticed: This sample character is on page 104. If the same general builds as SR3 are involved (even with minor changes), then this is at the end. That means the sameple characters start in the late 80s.
Page 89, IIRC the TOC.
It is. I just double-checked. This is the last one before the Skills section. I think this is a sign the builds will be approximately the same.
Sailboats, my ass...
| QUOTE (Sabosect) |
| It's pretty obvious that the chances of hitting a 30 are pretty damned high. High enough the post did not feel the need to include them. However, the poster does point out something: You can hit a 30 with only one die to work with. That comment comes to importance at the end, when the poster brings up having 6 dice to work with. Why is it important? Because the poster is, at that point, talking about it as impossible to use to get 12 successes. |
I think you mean pretty damn low.
While you can hit 30 with a since die, its a 6^5 chance to do so on a single die.
You then mentioned that you need 36 dice to reliably get 12 hits for a 12 threshold test.
Can you see how these things make you look like you are being foolish.
Because the statement that you need 36 dice to reliably pass a 12 threshold test is kind of silly, when you need 7776 dice to reliably get a single success at TN30.
Your comment of it being impossible on with only 6 dice still stands though.
| QUOTE (Sabosect) | ||
Actually, if she were a jack-of-all-trades character, she'd have something to allow her to hack as well. She's a character that specifically specializes in weapons. Thus, why she's called a weapons specialist. The thing that gets me is that, as a weapons specialist, she's below par. |
You misread my statement. I said she's a Jack-Of-All-Trades with regards to weapons. Meaning, she specializes in using every weapon under the sun, making her inherently average with each weapon.
As an aside: damn, you folks post lots of stuff in the afternoon.
| QUOTE (Ranneko) | ||
I think you mean pretty damn low. While you can hit 30 with a since die, its a 6^5 chance to do so on a single die. You then mentioned that you need 36 dice to reliably get 12 hits for a 12 threshold test. Can you see how these things make you look like you are being foolish. Because the statement that you need 36 dice to reliably pass a 12 threshold test is kind of silly, when you need 7776 dice to reliably get a single success at TN30. Your comment of it being impossible on with only 6 dice still stands though. |
Actually, that portion about the number of dice needed to get it reliably is part of a conversation at the time. Several items were brought up about the reliability of getting certain results under the new system. Everyone was ignoring the possibility of reliability under the old system simply because it is not important. It's not the fact of reliability of getting that is important under the old system, simply because any number short of 60 is believably possible and how much the numbers varied. In this system, reliability on a result is God.
My whole point with it was simply to show how easy it is to set a number no one can achieve with the Threshhold system. My comment on how many dice are required to get a reliable result was to show how easy it is to use that number as an impossible or unlikely number against players for their entire career. You could still do it under SR3 on certain numbers, but at the same time it's not exactly as difficult for a person to get a 20 or 30 in a skill as it is under this system to get 36 dice to use on a test.
Now, all of this is using current knowledge. I'm hoping they revamped the Karma system to reflect the changes, but I doubt it.
And, actually, I meant the odds. Wasn't paying full attention at the time. But, your correction is also right.
| QUOTE (Kesh) | ||||
You misread my statement. I said she's a Jack-Of-All-Trades with regards to weapons. Meaning, she specializes in using every weapon under the sun, making her inherently average with each weapon. As an aside: damn, you folks post lots of stuff in the afternoon. |
You're right. I did. Happens from time to time.
All of the math can be boiled down to this.
In SR3, the implausible is remotely possible.
In SR4, there is a great potential for the implausible to become the impossible.
And I for one don't like it.
In SR3, the implausible is remotely possible.
In SR4, there is a great potential for the implausible to become the impossible.
And I for one don't like it.
| QUOTE (Sabosect) |
| You're right. I did. Happens from time to time. |
No harm done. Just thought I'd clarify. Though, given the tangents this thread has run off in, I'm not sure there was much point.
Meh. I prefer to focus back seven pages on something I was wrong at than continue to be wrong.
| QUOTE (Nerbert) | ||
You're forgetting about the rule "If your dice pool is greater then the threshold you may burn four dice for one automatic success." It wasn't in the FAQs but it was mentioned someplace on the forums in the previous months. |
... you do realize, if that is done, that her chance of achieving greater successes (she'll average 2 and potentially get 3, or 1, or none) is being traded for a guarantee of less successes (2 with no chance of more)?
"Well, yeah, she could roll her 8 dice and average 2 hits, rarely succeeding at tests with threshold of 3 or higher... but I can fix that by sacrificing all her dice for 2 hits, thus guaranteeing she will fail if the threshold exceeds 2! I win! Oh, wait..."
| QUOTE (Wireknight) | ||||
... you do realize, if that is done, that her chance of achieving greater successes (she'll average 2 and potentially get 3, or 1, or none) is being traded for a guarantee of less successes (2 with no chance of more)? "Well, yeah, she could roll her 8 dice and average 2 hits, rarely succeeding at tests with threshold of 3 or higher... but I can fix that by sacrificing all her dice for 2 hits, thus guaranteeing she will fail if the threshold exceeds 2! I win! Oh, wait..." |
You burn four dice for and roll the rest. With a pool of 7 you're not even really harming your average doing it.
Yeah, and if the threshold is three hits, you're banking on her ability to score two results of 5 or higher on her remaining three dice. I wouldn't bet on success with odds like that.
See, I don't know how threshold works. I was under the impression that only successes greater then threshold counted as hits, but that sacrificing dice nets you a free hit. Kage, in another thread, says this rule might even be made up completely by someone else and that I just adopted it as factual.
Now, for some more fun with math...
Our Character has spent 26 build points on Resources, and gained 130,000
. That indicates that the Resources cost is a flat 5000 per point, although this might just be a coincidence.
Skills: She has spent over a third of her allocation on Skills, and all but two of them are 3 or less. The skill group costs might be more expensive; but inless there's a *huge* difference, there should still be more and higher skills on this sheet. That means the skill costs are through the roof, even at the lower levels.
Our Character has spent 26 build points on Resources, and gained 130,000
. That indicates that the Resources cost is a flat 5000 per point, although this might just be a coincidence. Skills: She has spent over a third of her allocation on Skills, and all but two of them are 3 or less. The skill group costs might be more expensive; but inless there's a *huge* difference, there should still be more and higher skills on this sheet. That means the skill costs are through the roof, even at the lower levels.
Go back and look at my post here. I already worked all this out. Skill groups cost 10bp per point, regular skills cost 4bp per point. And yeah, the 5k = 1bp is pretty obvious.
no, Nerbert. the TN is always 5. Threshold = how many hits you need to get the base effect. if the threshold is 3, you need 3 successes at TN 5 to get the base effect. your 4th hit would count as two net successes, your 5th would count as 3, etcetera.
| QUOTE (Sabosect) |
| It's pretty obvious that the chances of hitting a 30 are pretty damned high. High enough the post did not feel the need to include them. However, the poster does point out something: You can hit a 30 with only one die to work with. That comment comes to importance at the end, when the poster brings up having 6 dice to work with. Why is it important? Because the poster is, at that point, talking about it as impossible to use to get 12 successes. |
You meant low.
So low that it doesnt matter. You would need 6^5 dice, thats about 7000 to get 1 hit on average. neglegible for anny discussion about rules.
Fact is: A GM in SR4 can calculate success chances much easier than in SR3. So either the GM wants to kill the PCs, in which case he is a useless GM and rules wont stop him anyway, or he is a sensible GM and the new rules will help him calculate things better and increase survivability of players by reducing miscalculated rule situations.
You might want to scroll up in the convo where it was already discussed. And then stop and read everything that was said.
I did. Thats why I finally decided to post something like I did.
| QUOTE (Sabosect) |
| Actually, under this system, right now it appears it will. The reason is because I need about 5 days to test each adjustment to point values and then comparing the tests to how they interact with adjustments in availability. With every new item that comes out, I have to test it against the current level of points and see if it fits in with being available or if it would be too powerful for the campaign. |
How can you seriously hold this as a position? You haven't even seen the book, and you're speculating off of NOTHING! I mean, yes, this IS DS, but at least most people have some inkling to go off of. We don't even know if there IS availability any mmore.
Additionally, you seem to be saying that you need to test if the writers put the correct availability on each item. Do you seriously test that? If so, wouldn't you test that with 'standard' characters too? There are plenty of items available in SR3 right now to starting characters that I disallow for whatever reason. It's not like increasing the availability should be THAT much more of a headache in that case, since you're already going to spend 4 or 5 days testing every existing item in the book to see if you personally like it.
Of course, there is always the possibility (crazy as it may sound) of just playing the game and seeing how it turns out, since I can't expect you or I have enough experience now to really recognize a broken item if we encounter one, having not played it ourselves.
| QUOTE |
| Likely, they have not really tested the higher level stuff completely |
As has been said, your lack of faith is disturbing. If you think so poorly of the writers that you don't think you can play your characters for more than six months, why are you even bothering to buy the book? I wouldn't.
* Odd for some reason the forum posted this in the wrong thread. *
Actually I have some of the same misgivings about adjusting this system to higher-level campaigns as well. Mainly for a lot of the math reasons already outlined in regards to the threshold system but also because of previous experience trying to do high powered adventures in other campaigns we were just learning. However, a lot of these problems stem from lack of familiarity so while at first it will take a lot of time to adjust the game to the appropriate levels later on it will get easier.
In regards to the "SR4 screws the players over" discussion, I can just say that it does not apply to my group. There is no rivalery between me and my players. If there was, they would not stand much chance as we play by the rule that the GM is always right (may overrule the rules at any time). But because there is no rivalery, I use that power as fairly as I am able. They donīt need rules to protect them from me, and no rule would if they did. 
Yeah but it gets kinda annoying if you have to house rule everything because of an inherent flaw in the rules that makes the game inherently screw over the players. May as well just write your own rules at that point.
I have to admit I havenīt read much of the analysis. I picked up some arguments that involved scenarios that had the GM set insane TNīs out of spite, however. I canīt understand why any rpg rules should take something like that into account. Other than that youīre right.
You know. I went ahead and skipped the majority of these posts simply due to the fact that they seemed to degenerate into mindless nonsense. Especially the part about 'Blahblah-thatsamplecharacterisueslessinmycampaign-blahblah'.
So, by my own admission, this point could have already been made. However, given that repetition is the most basic form of learning, some of you may be in for a real treat!
So. Addressed to anyone by which this applies.
Well no-flipping-duh, shithead. For fucking christsake, we're not hear to read about how far you can piss as a GM, or how much of it collects around your ankles. It's fairly -OBVIOUS- and, consequentially, does not need stating that in a higher power campaign, higher power characters will be -REQUIRED-.
So give us a little courtesy and cut the bullshit so those of us who are interested in -constructive- comments don't have to repeatedly hit the 'mentalfilterthroughthesepretentiousmorons' button while we're reading through your silly, trite bitch&moanfest™. We don't need to listen to the sound of your urine trickle on a new system before we've been able to really begin to put it to the test.
And I'll refrain from referencing anyone as a complete fucktard, but it is taking a -severe- degree of willpower.
-RoleModel
"I haven't figured out how to say 'FUCK YOU' politely."
P.S. Elves are still floofy and gay. That's -never- going to change. Get used to it.
So, by my own admission, this point could have already been made. However, given that repetition is the most basic form of learning, some of you may be in for a real treat!
So. Addressed to anyone by which this applies.
Well no-flipping-duh, shithead. For fucking christsake, we're not hear to read about how far you can piss as a GM, or how much of it collects around your ankles. It's fairly -OBVIOUS- and, consequentially, does not need stating that in a higher power campaign, higher power characters will be -REQUIRED-.
So give us a little courtesy and cut the bullshit so those of us who are interested in -constructive- comments don't have to repeatedly hit the 'mentalfilterthroughthesepretentiousmorons' button while we're reading through your silly, trite bitch&moanfest™. We don't need to listen to the sound of your urine trickle on a new system before we've been able to really begin to put it to the test.
And I'll refrain from referencing anyone as a complete fucktard, but it is taking a -severe- degree of willpower.
-RoleModel
"I haven't figured out how to say 'FUCK YOU' politely."
P.S. Elves are still floofy and gay. That's -never- going to change. Get used to it.
| QUOTE (Sabosect) |
| You might want to scroll up in the convo where it was already discussed. And then stop and read everything that was said. |
God. What a horrendously -horrible- idea.
Only reason I read all of it is because my friend I'm visiting is at work so I'm stuck in her hotel room in a shit hole frontier town. You didn't really miss much.
I play my games pretty much by the book with only minor tweaking such as purchasing build time at char gen or rules precedents to get rid of occasional problems. SR3 always worked very well with not having to tweak too much and the players didn't have to rely on the "rule of 36" too often (although it was always funny when someone did make it). The fear with SR4 is poor design or poor system period mixed in with a change in feel and general fear of something new.
So far it sounds like SR4 may have some serious issues in it about making things hard for the character to accomplish thereby decreasing player interest as well as the apparently requisite core rule book bloat.
Sabosect and a few others have done a good job of showing how this new system can negatively impact player's chances of succeeding in the game. As I have said in other posts SR4 really looks like it will feel and play like Exalted and nWoD and in both of those systems I felt very adverse to trying to do anything that required dice because I either succeeded or failed spectacularily. If I have a 25% chance of either succeeding beyond expectations or likely getting my character killed then I'm not going to take that action--makes for a boring game where the players are merely trying to protect characters they care about and love.
I play my games pretty much by the book with only minor tweaking such as purchasing build time at char gen or rules precedents to get rid of occasional problems. SR3 always worked very well with not having to tweak too much and the players didn't have to rely on the "rule of 36" too often (although it was always funny when someone did make it). The fear with SR4 is poor design or poor system period mixed in with a change in feel and general fear of something new.
So far it sounds like SR4 may have some serious issues in it about making things hard for the character to accomplish thereby decreasing player interest as well as the apparently requisite core rule book bloat.
Sabosect and a few others have done a good job of showing how this new system can negatively impact player's chances of succeeding in the game. As I have said in other posts SR4 really looks like it will feel and play like Exalted and nWoD and in both of those systems I felt very adverse to trying to do anything that required dice because I either succeeded or failed spectacularily. If I have a 25% chance of either succeeding beyond expectations or likely getting my character killed then I'm not going to take that action--makes for a boring game where the players are merely trying to protect characters they care about and love.
| QUOTE (Rolemodel) |
| You know. I went ahead and skipped the majority of these posts simply due to the fact that they seemed to degenerate into mindless nonsense. Especially the part about 'Blahblah-thatsamplecharacterisueslessinmycampaign-blahblah'. So, by my own admission, this point could have already been made. However, given that repetition is the most basic form of learning, some of you may be in for a real treat! So. Addressed to anyone by which this applies. Well no-flipping-duh, shithead. For fucking christsake, we're not hear to read about how far you can piss as a GM, or how much of it collects around your ankles. It's fairly -OBVIOUS- and, consequentially, does not need stating that in a higher power campaign, higher power characters will be -REQUIRED-. So give us a little courtesy and cut the bullshit so those of us who are interested in -constructive- comments don't have to repeatedly hit the 'mentalfilterthroughthesepretentiousmorons' button while we're reading through your silly, trite bitch&moanfest™. We don't need to listen to the sound of your urine trickle on a new system before we've been able to really begin to put it to the test. And I'll refrain from referencing anyone as a complete fucktard, but it is taking a -severe- degree of willpower. -RoleModel "I haven't figured out how to say 'FUCK YOU' politely." P.S. Elves are still floofy and gay. That's -never- going to change. Get used to it. |
Great stuff....
...but you do know this is the dumpshock forums right?
| QUOTE (Sabosect) |
| Actually, that portion about the number of dice needed to get it reliably is part of a conversation at the time. Several items were brought up about the reliability of getting certain results under the new system. Everyone was ignoring the possibility of reliability under the old system simply because it is not important. It's not the fact of reliability of getting that is important under the old system, simply because any number short of 60 is believably possible and how much the numbers varied. In this system, reliability on a result is God. My whole point with it was simply to show how easy it is to set a number no one can achieve with the Threshhold system. My comment on how many dice are required to get a reliable result was to show how easy it is to use that number as an impossible or unlikely number against players for their entire career. You could still do it under SR3 on certain numbers, but at the same time it's not exactly as difficult for a person to get a 20 or 30 in a skill as it is under this system to get 36 dice to use on a test. Now, all of this is using current knowledge. I'm hoping they revamped the Karma system to reflect the changes, but I doubt it. And, actually, I meant the odds. Wasn't paying full attention at the time. But, your correction is also right. |
Ok Sabosec first you're going off of misconceptions on the threshold system. This system has been established in some form or another atleast since Exalted first came out with white wolf (may have been around before i'm honestly not sure but this is when I personaly first came across it)
Your concept is threshold is the be all end all. Infact threshold is only a minor part. Threshold is for things such as extended tests, jumping from one building to the next, breaking that board in half in one strike. Other things like conditional penalties don't add threshold, they subtract dice from your poole. This type of thing includes wound modifiers, visibility, cover, ect. Those types of things don't add threshold.
There may be a 10 dice penalty, so depending on how edge works or your dice pool you still may have a chance at success. And 10 dice is a prety hefty penalty.
| QUOTE (Rolemodel) |
| You know. I went ahead and skipped the majority of these posts simply due to the fact that they seemed to degenerate into mindless nonsense. Especially the part about 'Blahblah-thatsamplecharacterisueslessinmycampaign-blahblah'. So, by my own admission, this point could have already been made. However, given that repetition is the most basic form of learning, some of you may be in for a real treat! So. Addressed to anyone by which this applies. Well no-flipping-duh, shithead. For fucking christsake, we're not hear to read about how far you can piss as a GM, or how much of it collects around your ankles. It's fairly -OBVIOUS- and, consequentially, does not need stating that in a higher power campaign, higher power characters will be -REQUIRED-. So give us a little courtesy and cut the bullshit so those of us who are interested in -constructive- comments don't have to repeatedly hit the 'mentalfilterthroughthesepretentiousmorons' button while we're reading through your silly, trite bitch&moanfest™. We don't need to listen to the sound of your urine trickle on a new system before we've been able to really begin to put it to the test. And I'll refrain from referencing anyone as a complete fucktard, but it is taking a -severe- degree of willpower. -RoleModel "I haven't figured out how to say 'FUCK YOU' politely." P.S. Elves are still floofy and gay. That's -never- going to change. Get used to it. |
Yeah...voicing you opinion, whether wrong, right, stupid or insulting in another's view, is the main point of this forum. And as has already been said several times, why create this forum about SR4 before the rules come out if we as fans can't voice our opinions and pick apart the little bits we have seen.
If I want to piss all over a new system then that is my perogative (btw DS is optional so no one is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to read it)
You fuck tard
There's no space in fucktard.
-RM
"I haven't figured out how to say 'FUCK YOU' politely."
-RM
"I haven't figured out how to say 'FUCK YOU' politely."
It could have been a declaration that you copulate with tard, whatever that is.
Anyway, here's a hint: any time you open with "I haven't read all the responses" or similar, you're speaking secret code for "I'm a fucking idiot".
~J
Anyway, here's a hint: any time you open with "I haven't read all the responses" or similar, you're speaking secret code for "I'm a fucking idiot".
~J
No! You're a secret-code-for-I'm-a-fucktard! Neaner-neaner!
-RM
"I haven't figured out how to say 'FUCK YOU' politely."
-RM
"I haven't figured out how to say 'FUCK YOU' politely."
| QUOTE (Cheops) |
| Yeah...voicing you opinion, whether wrong, right, stupid or insulting in another's view, is the main point of this forum. |
You know. After reading that, I have to question you command of the English language. Don't consider this a -personal- attack, by any means. Afterall, it's entirely possible that you don't speak english as a primary language, and by that token, I'm willing to cut you a little slack.
So, in an effort to help you out a bit: While in fact there is no space in 'Fucktard', there are several spaces in 'Your words make my brain ache'. I'm not sure if that's testable material in whatever remedial courses you plan on taking this fall, -however-, I'm sure it will come in handy at some point in your life!.
-RM
"I haven't figured out how to say "FUCK YOU" politely."
P.S. Hey, don't hold it against me! This thread wasn't going anywhere, anyway! w00t!
Years of business writing has warped my writing skills.
However, I believe that if you stop to take the pauses indicated by the comas and actually take the time to think about what was written you may be able to figure out, in that small FUCKTARD brain of yours what that statement means.
However, I believe that if you stop to take the pauses indicated by the comas and actually take the time to think about what was written you may be able to figure out, in that small FUCKTARD brain of yours what that statement means.
Heh.
-RM
"I haven't figured out how to say 'FUCK YOU' politely."
-RM
"I haven't figured out how to say 'FUCK YOU' politely."
Oh, piss off, all of you.
(Sorry, just getting into the apparent spirit of things.)
(Sorry, just getting into the apparent spirit of things.)
| QUOTE (nezumi @ Aug 18 2005, 08:33 AM) |
| How can you seriously hold this as a position? You haven't even seen the book, and you're speculating off of NOTHING! I mean, yes, this IS DS, but at least most people have some inkling to go off of. We don't even know if there IS availability any mmore. |
Which is ironic, considering one of the main replies against my arguement is to simply adjust the availability. Or, did you pull the fallacy of simply ignoring them in favor of trying to make a nonexistant point?
In my case, note that I am talking about adjusting the system to create a high-powered game more towards what my players are used to. Due to the completely different system, mainly the fact it is similar to BeCKS in the usage of large numbers, I have no clue exactly what using, say, 600 BP would do. And, even with the information we have worked out on costs, it becomes clear to me I have to spend a few days testing it to see if my adjustments overpower the characters or if my adjustments still leave them underpowered. I am, in effect, trying to adjust the system to work in a way it was not intended.
Now, please take everything I say into consideration next time. And, excuse my hostile tone. We have a moron on the forum trying to ruin things.
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| Additionally, you seem to be saying that you need to test if the writers put the correct availability on each item. Do you seriously test that? If so, wouldn't you test that with 'standard' characters too? There are plenty of items available in SR3 right now to starting characters that I disallow for whatever reason. It's not like increasing the availability should be THAT much more of a headache in that case, since you're already going to spend 4 or 5 days testing every existing item in the book to see if you personally like it. |
Try 4-5 days just testing my alterations to BP to make sure I have not overpowered the characters. It's a large amount of time, but I have a lot of adjustments to test to see which one is right. As for testing the items: I know the availability is fine for the existing system. The problem is that I am moving beyond that. So, yes, I actually have to test items as well to make sure they all fit with my adjustments. I am, in effect, pretty much having to test the entire game just because of the system they use for chargen. I can't simply add 60 points, look at a few charts, and know exactly what it will do.
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| Of course, there is always the possibility (crazy as it may sound) of just playing the game and seeing how it turns out, since I can't expect you or I have enough experience now to really recognize a broken item if we encounter one, having not played it ourselves. |
Won't work. Stop and consider my campaign style. That weapons specialist would be killed by security guards before the run even really got started.
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| As has been said, your lack of faith is disturbing. If you think so poorly of the writers that you don't think you can play your characters for more than six months, why are you even bothering to buy the book? I wouldn't. |
Actually, I'm considering the number of items they were working on and the time they had to work on it. They were effectively rewriting the system. It took WotC two attempts and about a decade to get their rewrite of the DnD system close to what they consider correct and they're still trying to fix the hundreds of problems that cropped up. Now, I'm pretty damned sure SR won't suffer from this, but at the same time I'm also thinking that they could easily have not had enough time to test the really high powered characters and that they plan on releasing a future book to deal with the issue before it becomes a problem in most campaigns. It's actually a pretty good idea to do, as it also saves space in the main book and even with delays they can easily get out a book to cover any problems long before a full six months have passed, potentially using that book in the same way the Shadowrun Companion was used.
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| I did. Thats why I finally decided to post something like I did. |
Which really helped the convo in what way? If you're just replying to be able to say you said something in reply, then don't waste time doing it.
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| Worthless rant by Rolemodel who can't be bothered to do more than piss and moan because people are talking about something he doesn't care to. |
If you really don't care, then do what those of us who evolved far enough to understand social etiquette do: Ignore it and grab one of the other convos in the thread. It's not like there's only been one talked about the entire time. And there's certainly other threads you can check out. In any case, don't act like a child just because you don't like what is being discussed. If you can't act like an adult, then just do everyone a favor and shut up.
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| All of the other idiocy by Rolemodel. |
Ya know, I mostly like to avoid conflict on here. But, when dealing with a simiolus stupidicus erectus (for those of you who know Latin, that's not intended as a racial comment), I have to take exception to it.
Rolemodel, for once in my life, I'm going to say this: Maybe these forums are not for you. You see, most of us come on here for an adult conversation, to be able to state what we want within the limitations of etiquette and move on. You, however, come on here to prove that it is perfectly possible to know the English language with a very good familiarity and still not have enough knowledge in your head to figure out a simple case of "not allowing you parakeet mouth to overload your potato brain just because you don't like a subject being discussed," something most of us on here have figured out. Now, I must say that whoever attempted to teach you manners must be embarassed to be in the same room as you. I know I am. So, please, do all of humanity a favor by shutting up, getting in a car, and playing chicken with a train.
And yes, this is a personal attack. This is a very personal attack. I couldn't get more personal without insulting your heritage, and at this point I think you've done that enough.
Now, back to intelligent conversation.
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| Ok Sabosec first you're going off of misconceptions on the threshold system. This system has been established in some form or another atleast since Exalted first came out with white wolf (may have been around before i'm honestly not sure but this is when I personaly first came across it) |
:winces: Okay, I will ask this once. Please spell my name right. I know it's not intentional on your end, and I know how easy it is to memorize a misspelling, and how easy it is for eyes to play tricks on you. There is no need to apologize for it either.
I probably am using misconceptions. I only have the information currently available to work with. We currently have a lot of misconceptions floating around this forum in general. I'm sure those will be cleared up. In the meantime, I can only work with what information I have.
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| Your concept is threshold is the be all end all. Infact threshold is only a minor part. Threshold is for things such as extended tests, jumping from one building to the next, breaking that board in half in one strike. Other things like conditional penalties don't add threshold, they subtract dice from your poole. This type of thing includes wound modifiers, visibility, cover, ect. Those types of things don't add threshold. |
You'll have to excuse me for this, but source? And, if it's the book, I envy you.
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| There may be a 10 dice penalty, so depending on how edge works or your dice pool you still may have a chance at success. And 10 dice is a prety hefty penalty. |
Yeah, that would pretty much kill the character.
Look, the simple fact of the matter is that your security guards are only going to kill the weapon specialist if you make security guards of a high enough power level enough to reliably kill characters of her power level.
What we're all in the dark about is how big of a difference in power level is possible. You just happen to seem extremely confident that you have a firm grasp of those powerlevels. Do all your guards have 6s in every stat? If so, why? Do they have 5s in every stat? How do you know what the difference is between throwing 10 dice, and 8 dice. Or 12 dice and 8 dice? How do you know? I sure don't. We can approximate mathematically, like saying that the 12 dice guy gets, on average, only one more success then 8 dice guy all other things being equal. Honestly, that doesn't seem like much to me, especially since 12 dice man could just as easily roll zero successes, I see it happen all the time. And its further complicated by the fact that we don't know any of the other mechanics of the game.
So, excuse us for being fed up with you.
What we're all in the dark about is how big of a difference in power level is possible. You just happen to seem extremely confident that you have a firm grasp of those powerlevels. Do all your guards have 6s in every stat? If so, why? Do they have 5s in every stat? How do you know what the difference is between throwing 10 dice, and 8 dice. Or 12 dice and 8 dice? How do you know? I sure don't. We can approximate mathematically, like saying that the 12 dice guy gets, on average, only one more success then 8 dice guy all other things being equal. Honestly, that doesn't seem like much to me, especially since 12 dice man could just as easily roll zero successes, I see it happen all the time. And its further complicated by the fact that we don't know any of the other mechanics of the game.
So, excuse us for being fed up with you.
Nerbert, we know exactly the range of power they intend. Here, let me quote you from their own FAQs.
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| A. Skills and attributes range from 1 to 6, with 3 being average. So an average skill, average attribute dice pool is 6 dice. Purchasing above-average attributes and skills is limited at character creation and generally expensive. 6 is the maximum natural rating for attributes (before racial modifiers are applied). |
That right there tells us they want characters who mostly have 3s or lower, with the occasional above average.
Now, you want some fun? Examine the table of contents. Unless variant levels are covered under the BP heading, there is no variance in power level. And, while we're at it, you tell me how much information you think they included in the measely two pages devoted to karma and character advancement.
Nezumi- Availability ratings are brought up on page 301 of SR4. Check the TOC.
| QUOTE (Sabosect) |
| Nezumi- Availability ratings are brought up on page 301 of SR4. Check the TOC. |
Nonsense, that could be a fake ToC designed to mislead the unfaithful, like those fake playtest rules that mfb was given that make all his potential knowledge of the system invalid!
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