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SL James
QUOTE (JBlades)
On a totally unrelated note, has anyone got any idea why you'd need a combat axe, 2 katanas, AND a survival knife? Or a bow AND a crossbow? Throwing knives AND shuriken? This chick is seriously paranoid!

And yet she doesn't have nearly enough guns.
JBlades
QUOTE (SL James)

And yet she doesn't have nearly enough guns.

SO true!
Sabosect
Hey, she has about as many projectile launchers as my average street same. Of course, my average street same carries around an Aries Alpha...
beepeearr
Is anyone else here actually hoping that sample character is chock full of math errors. I had thought about getting the PDF as soon as it went up for sale, but the more and more I know the more leary I become. Just how goofy are the Bp costs going to be.
Ellery
I hope I never said that the first point of a skill was free. That wouldn't make sense, and I didn't mean to say that. Just the first point of an attribute--unless 0 is a valid score for an attribute. And I agree that 5 5 10 10 20 20 would fit the goal of reducing high attributes. But it is contrary to streamlining and simplification. It's not clear to me which goal should take precedence.
Sabosect
Huh? Oh, a misread on my part.

Anyway, I'm thinking they'll do here what they did with SR3: All attributes must start out at 1 point, and the first point costs. Didn't matter the official system, it was done with both of them.

Edit: 5 5 10 10 20 20 is actually pretty streamlined. You can easily memorize that pattern and figure out the cost of any score. For example, under that pattern I can, with little effort, determine a stat of 8 costs 150 points total. I can literally count it on my fingers.
SL James
QUOTE (Sabosect @ Aug 17 2005, 01:55 AM)
Hey, she has about as many projectile launchers as my average street same. Of course, my average street same carries around an Aries Alpha...

Two pistols, a sniper rifle, and a rocket launcher.

Wow.

She should toss the rocket launcher, combat axe, and crossbow and get three more pistols, two subguns, and an assault rifle. At the least.

I have an explanation for the 3 missing BP in Knowledge Skills: English 3.

The character sheet doesn't distinguish between knowledge and language skills.
Sabosect
Ya know, that sounds awfully like the character that caused my group to ban me from playing street sams for a few months...

I swear, it was only half of Downtown Seattle. The northern half is the Downtown half, right?
Phoniex
QUOTE (Ellery)
I'm not saying it's impossible. Costs of 5 5 10 10 20 20 would work. It's not as simple, though. It's a pity that the character doesn't have a 5 or 6--we could figure it out then.

Thankyou for your exellent work! And i'm sure the the people at fanpro created and gave this specific template to us early just SO that we could get a taste.. but could not *figure it out*. I feel like Kirk, shouting KHHAAANNN wink.gif

Also, what if elf racial stat bonuses are not the same? *ducks as smoke comes out of peoples ears* cool.gif
Ellery
But it's so perfect, with "Elf" costing 30 points being a code word for "three more stat points" which cost 10 points each!
Nerbert
If we're following the 5 5 10 10 20 20 rule, that doesn't exactly follow for high stats.
Phoniex
QUOTE (Ellery)
But it's so perfect, with "Elf" costing 30 points being a code word for "three more stat points" which cost 10 points each!

but that would mean that each metatype costs as much as the bonuses you get. Which would be balanced. I mean everyone loves dwarfs with thier insane + stats and low low pricetag in 3rd, even if you get called stumpy wink.gif All this means is that they are changing the point cost from being based on gameworld populations to instead being based off of actually game mechanics benifits. Which is kewl, its just different.

I think i could enjoy add up all the stat modifier for a metatype, then that is the cost in BP times 10. nyahnyah.gif
mfb
actually, it wouldn't quite be perfectly balanced, if you take the various vision types that come with metatypes into account. but it rebalances if humans get a special something, to make up for the lack of better vision.
SL James
Oh, great. It'd be Earthdawn all over again.
Phoniex
QUOTE (SL James)
Oh, great. It'd be Earthdawn all over again.

How? in earthdawn they tried to balance the tradeoff of karma die verses stat bonuses. Which in general never equaled out. The obsidiman with the D4 and the most stat bonuses was still underpowered compared to a windling with a D10. Because of which stats got the bonuses. DEX INT and WIL are the most important ED stats. Guess who got those bonuses? guess who got the D10 for karma as well. Windlings are EVIL. Just like dwarves in SR3. I guess developers just love the little ones spin.gif

In SR4 they can at least say that Low light/thermo/ resistance to disease and pathogens. Might be equal to humans getting an extra point of edge sooner rather than later.

But versatility in ED was the most overpowered talent ever, but thats another discussion and should be in another thread.

Check that, it depends. If astral perception and projection now have costs associated with them( for full mage characters). So should natural low light and thermo, if you want to keep everything balanced.
Athenor
QUOTE (SL James)
Oh, great. It'd be Earthdawn all over again.

You know, I know many SR players who would kill to have your last statement be true.

I have confidence it isn't. =) It's not based on hard information.. And personally, I'd kill to be in an Earthdawn game some century... But I just don't see SR4 evolving into a clone of anything.
Phoniex
QUOTE (Athenor)
QUOTE (SL James @ Aug 17 2005, 02:55 AM)
Oh, great. It'd be Earthdawn all over again.

You know, I know many SR players who would kill to have your last statement be true.

I have confidence it isn't. =) It's not based on hard information.. And personally, I'd kill to be in an Earthdawn game some century... But I just don't see SR4 evolving into a clone of anything.

While i really liked the flavor and history of the tie between the 6th and the 4th world. The game systems in NO way are compatable. Believe me my group has tried.

IF you want gritty, reality based gameworld and mechanics go with shadowrun, if you want a fantasy hero game where you CAN kill great dragon, go with earthdawn. Althougth ED does have many more great settings, like the archology is in SR. *shudder Parlainth*

Athenor
QUOTE (Phoniex)
QUOTE (Athenor @ Aug 17 2005, 09:12 AM)
QUOTE (SL James @ Aug 17 2005, 02:55 AM)
Oh, great. It'd be Earthdawn all over again.

You know, I know many SR players who would kill to have your last statement be true.

I have confidence it isn't. =) It's not based on hard information.. And personally, I'd kill to be in an Earthdawn game some century... But I just don't see SR4 evolving into a clone of anything.

While i really liked the flavor and history of the tie between the 6th and the 4th world. The game systems in NO way are compatable. Believe me my group has tried.

IF you want gritty, reality based gameworld and mechanics go with shadowrun, if you want a fantasy hero game where you CAN kill great dragon, go with earthdawn. Althougth ED does have many more great settings, like the archology is in SR. *shudder Parlainth*

Please don't bring up the horrors of my only time playing SR when I'm not GM'ing...

Defending the Dunkelzahn institute while we were trying to recover the artifacts Dunk had just distributed, while having netherbolts being thrown at your party and growing thorns out of your body... It just isn't fun.
Phoniex
QUOTE (Athenor)
Please don't bring up the horrors of my only time playing SR when I'm not GM'ing...

Defending the Dunkelzahn institute while we were trying to recover the artifacts Dunk had just distributed, while having netherbolts being thrown at your party and growing thorns out of your body... It just isn't fun.

Hehe, serves you right for being an elf wink.gif they do enjoy their thorns. And time travel is just one thing ED has to offer. That and Bone shatter, a spell SO evil that it makes turn to goo look nice smile.gif At least be glad the other GM did not throw a Fear effect, or damage shift, or skin shift.... or cursed luck... at you. Wait, did you live, or just want to die? wink.gif
blakkie
Hmmm, well i see from the equipment list that Novatech survived. Not nessasarily as a AAA. But it's still selling high tech and it's apparently a player in the big new wireless market. So it's likely doing ok for itself.
mmu1
Hmm... I'm certainly not impressed with the default power level and the characters it seems to produce, that's for sure.

My first reaction when looking at the numbers was "This character has no cyber, no bio, no expensive vehicles, average stats, her skills average to 3 or less, and those are ALL the skills she has?"

Some of it might be because they rolled combat skills into groups*, but still... She has nothing besides her skills going for her, and while she knows a lot about weapons, she has no athletics, no stealth, no biotech, no electronics, no computers, not a single vehicle skill, no area knowledge skills, no 6th world knowledge... She's completely one-dimensional.

*my guess would be that the "skill groups" are an optional way of buying skills - a lot more expensive than individual skills, but more cost-effective than buying all the skills individually, thus a viable option for a character that wants to be able to use everything in a given area of specialization - sort of the like a Guns! or Drive! skill in GURPS 4E
Darkness
QUOTE (mmu1)

knowledge... She's completely one-dimensional.

*my guess would be that the "skill groups" are an optional way of buying skills - a lot more expensive than individual skills, but more cost-effective than buying all the skills individually, thus a viable option for a character that wants to be able to use everything in a given area of specialization - sort of the like a Guns! or Drive! skill in GURPS 4E

Or the Firearms Skill in SR2... biggrin.gif

She's only one out of 16. I'm hoping for more broader characters with the other 15 archetypes.

blakkie
Yes, this is in line with the hints that the standard starting character would be more average Jane/Joe than the standard starting PC in SR3. That attributes above average (3 being average) will be rare. It also seems to suggest that mundanes w/o 'ware can make a go of it. Whether they play like 2nd or 3rd class remains to be seen.

That said she will be rolling 8ish dice for tests involving small arms, shooting and repairing. There are going to be few weapons, if any outside of vehicle mounted, that she isn't trained to use. She also doesn't have any weak attributes. There is the unknown of the Lucky, that cost her 20BP. She also has a non-obvious SL, just not as implanted 'ware.

She also has her full essense left. If buying 'ware is more feasible post-creation than before, with the lower cyberware costs, then that room to grow is important.
BitBasher
She doesn't have any week attributes? She has the same attributes as a pedestrian, dead average. This is not a paid professional. This is my momma with a gear hookup from a physically fit point of view. wink.gif
mmu1
QUOTE (Darkness)
Or the Firearms Skill in SR2... biggrin.gif

Not quite, since the SR2 Firearms skill didn't let you buy individual skills... I guess we'll see.
blakkie
QUOTE (BitBasher @ Aug 17 2005, 07:22 AM)
She doesn't have any week attributes? She has the same attributes as a pedestrian, dead average. This is not a paid professional. This is my momma with a gear hookup from a physically fit point of view. wink.gif

Weak as in below average.

P.S. Just because your momma can carry 3 Big Macs back to her table without having to stop to catch her breath and without spilling any of her supersized fries doesn't mean she's S 3, A 3. cool.gif
Jrayjoker
QUOTE (blakkie @ Aug 17 2005, 08:26 AM)
QUOTE (BitBasher @ Aug 17 2005, 07:22 AM)
She doesn't have any week attributes? She has the same attributes as a pedestrian, dead average. This is not a paid professional. This is my momma with a gear hookup from a physically fit point of view. wink.gif

Weak as in below average.

P.S. Just because your momma can carry 3 Big Macs back to her table without having to stop to catch her breath and without spilling any of her supersized fries doesn't mean she's S 3, A 3. cool.gif

Hey, lets not get into the yo mamma stuff this early.

Perhaps pedestrians are equally lower level. And who is to say that 3 is not "high average" in this setup?
blakkie
QUOTE (Jrayjoker)
Hey, lets not get into the yo mamma stuff this early.

Hey, i'm sure it's late somewhere. nyahnyah.gif Besides, he brought his momma into this, not me. *points finger* wink.gif

QUOTE
Perhaps pedestrians are equally lower level. And who is to say that 3 is not "high average" in this setup?


I think calling it "average" is probably very misleading. More like an average of the highest attribute of an average person. If not 1 and 2 would have to be as nearly as rare as 4 and 5. So it is more like the "average high". So someone with all "average" attributes of 3 is actually mildly exceptional.
Jrayjoker
Yeah, I'm down with that.
JongWK
1) Excellent picture. I hope the other 15 have the same quality.

2) There's a lot of clever analysis in this thread.

3) I consider this character a rough equivalent of SR3's Weapon Specialist: a good number of skills, good gear and lots of room to grow. It's not the scariest combat monster I've seen so far (a friend's adept takes the cake so far), but it's quite versatile.

4) She's one lucky gal. wink.gif
Jrayjoker
Regarding the language - Arabic - N

If it is native language then they got her ethnicity down pat. Very well drawn.
mintcar
I think that´s safe to assume. And yeah, it´s impressive.
Grimtooth
Ok i don't care what i've said in the past, but I'm a little stoked about this.

I just spoke to one of my players/gm's and we can now definitely admit that after seeing the character sheet and the sample character we are intrigued.


Having the book in hand for about a week will definitely help though.

mintcar
This power level would have fitted very well with how I used to play Shadowrun. SR3 used to give my players so much to play with at char gen, they wouldn´t know what to do with it. Then when we started playing my scenarios would be midrange, and they would be overqualified. I never adjusted well to the power increase from 2:nd edition to 3:rd. For my next campain I´m going to start of with street level and let the players work their way to the top. We never played often enough for my players to actually become as professional as their characters were supposed to be. We will all have more fun if there´s room for mistakes for a while so they may learn from them.
Kesh
I just don't get you people sometimes.

This is a Jack-Of-All-Trades character (as far as combat goes)... and you're pissed because she's average at everything?!

Of course she's average! She's not specializing in anything, she's trying to be capable of using any weapon under the sun! She's not going to be an expert at anything that way. question.gif
apollo124
Just looking at the Knowledge skill points, it occurs to me that perhaps this is the way it is: Skills cost point for point for first 2 levels, point for point +1 for levels 3-4, perhaps point for point +2 for levels 5-6.

Or maybe I'm just wrong.
NeoJudas
I admit I'm intrigued, and after reading everyone's comments herein (especially Ellery's analysis a few pages ago) I have to say ... "yep, they finally get their street game". Seriously, FanPro US has been saying for quite a while now that they never liked the truly "Epic" or "Powermonger" gaming and have been looking for a way to downpower literally everything.

After doing some reverse-engineering of mine own, I am want to wait to see the other archetypes that are pre-generated as well as the book to create one/two of mine own. If I'm right, then the 123 to 145 BP characters we used to start with here would be the rough equivalent to a 650-700 BP character using the SR4 rules.

There were two things I am curious about and definitely want to know more:

1) "Initiative Pass : 1"

2) Contacts with Ratings. I know they used to have them before but the idea of always writing the ratings down next to the contacts would be a serious improvement over the older contact management suggestions that were ever made.

Side Comment : Someone suggested "Net Successes"... I'm not sure we should make that assumption. I remember seeing the term "hits" and thinking to myself "they've adjusted the staging rules". And if you consider threshold rules, then a singular value instead of a net-success value would make for considerable sense. It would also alleviate one of the problems in the game with regards to damage resistance ... "I got 3 successes, I can't believe the third one means nothing".
L.D
QUOTE (Kesh)
This is a Jack-Of-All-Trades character (as far as combat goes)... and you're pissed because she's average at everything?!

Of course she's average! She's not specializing in anything, she's trying to be capable of using any weapon under the sun! She's not going to be an expert at anything that way. question.gif

notworthy.gif notworthy.gif notworthy.gif
blakkie
EDIT: Bad blakkie, must use correct terminology. Rolling a 5 or 6 is now a "hit", not a "success".

NeoJudas, some of that stuff we know about from Origins:

1) Without any 'ware enhancements, possible magic enhancements, a character only ever gets one Initiative pass per Initiative roll. At the start of the turn (not sure if that is correct terminology) everyone rolls their Init dice. They then all act in order of the most hits to the least hits (the TOC mentions that you can Glitch an Init roll *gulp*). Second pass actions are only available to those with enhancements that grant them, the number of extra actions being fixed for a given 'ware (magic) combination.

2) Since there are now 2 numbers associated with a contact, and they likely come more into play as to what the contact can and will do for you, this makes even more sense. Not that i haven't always written the level of the contact down next to the contact anyway.

Side Comment) Attack rolls are opposed rolls, which means the target also rolls some dice. The threshhold is how many hits the target rolled to be successful. Extra hits do an extra box of damage each. Yes it is good that the divide by 2 doesn't eat hits here. But it sounds like they didn't get rid of the issue of round-off waste everywhere, particularly in the magic system.
Stormdrake
Hate to ask this but "Threshold" rules? Did I miss this in 3rd edition or is this something completely new for 4th? If it is addressed in another thread please point me in that direction.
Thank you
blakkie
QUOTE (Stormdrake)
Hate to ask this but "Threshold" rules? Did I miss this in 3rd edition or is this something completely new for 4th? If it is addressed in another thread please point me in that direction.
Thank you

There were some spells in SR3 that had a Threshhold. You have to get at least, well they are now called "hits", to be successful at the task.
Sabosect
QUOTE
This is a Jack-Of-All-Trades character (as far as combat goes)... and you're pissed because she's average at everything?!

Of course she's average! She's not specializing in anything, she's trying to be capable of using any weapon under the sun! She's not going to be an expert at anything that way. question.gif


Actually, if she were a jack-of-all-trades character, she'd have something to allow her to hack as well. She's a character that specifically specializes in weapons. Thus, why she's called a weapons specialist. The thing that gets me is that, as a weapons specialist, she's below par.

To be honest, my players are used to a game where they have professional skills. Their characters usually have professional training in their background and they take on the types of jobs where you need a 6 in your specialty to survive. They play around with the big boys and they know they could easily get hurt.

Now, as it stands, I'll have to get this book and write up a special priority-system version of chargen with adjustments for power level. Otherwise, we're going to have to abandon our entire style of playing just because FanPro got their panties in a twist over something that really wasn't a problem. No insult intended to individuals, of course. Just a disgruntled player realizing he's being screwed over in some way by yet another gaming company when it comes to his games.
Jrayjoker
QUOTE (Sabosect)
QUOTE
This is a Jack-Of-All-Trades character (as far as combat goes)... and you're pissed because she's average at everything?!

Of course she's average! She's not specializing in anything, she's trying to be capable of using any weapon under the sun! She's not going to be an expert at anything that way. question.gif


Actually, if she were a jack-of-all-trades character, she'd have something to allow her to hack as well. She's a character that specifically specializes in weapons. Thus, why she's called a weapons specialist. The thing that gets me is that, as a weapons specialist, she's below par.

To be honest, my players are used to a game where they have professional skills. Their characters usually have professional training in their background and they take on the types of jobs where you need a 6 in your specialty to survive. They play around with the big boys and they know they could easily get hurt.

Now, as it stands, I'll have to get this book and write up a special priority-system version of chargen with adjustments for power level. Otherwise, we're going to have to abandon our entire style of playing just because FanPro got their panties in a twist over something that really wasn't a problem. No insult intended to individuals, of course. Just a disgruntled player realizing he's being screwed over in some way by yet another gaming company when it comes to his games.

I think you are too hung up on SR3 numbers. This is a different system with different balances as far as I can tell.
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE
To be honest, my players are used to a game where they have professional skills. Their characters usually have professional training in their background and they take on the types of jobs where you need a 6 in your specialty to survive. They play around with the big boys and they know they could easily get hurt.

Now, as it stands, I'll have to get this book and write up a special priority-system version of chargen with adjustments for power level. Otherwise, we're going to have to abandon our entire style of playing just because FanPro got their panties in a twist over something that really wasn't a problem. No insult intended to individuals, of course. Just a disgruntled player realizing he's being screwed over in some way by yet another gaming company when it comes to his games.


No, all you really have to do is up the starting build points.

And we're all well aware that different groups have different play levels. Some are street, some are professional, some are epic. But it's easiest to start with the basis of street and add on if you play higher levels than it is for someone who wants to play street-level to have to water down all the FanPro provided material.
Sabosect
QUOTE (Jrayjoker)
I think you are too hung up on SR3 numbers. This is a different system with different balances as far as I can tell.

Actually, I'm looking at this current system. It's really pretty much reusing SR3 numbers, only it's making the higher numbers less prevalent and making stats a bit more important. In the end, it ends up with the same numbers and same system of challenge with only an increase in the actual number. So, it's successes made instead of a number rolled. Realistically, that's only a change when you realize how easily it is to screw over players and how much will stay the same.

As for a priority system: I'm making one for my newer players, who cannot get the hang of the SR3 BP system and are looking at the requirements for this one as though they just ended up in one of the lowest levels of Hell. The less number-savey people are also getting screwed over, simply because the system automatically discriminates against them and forces them to look towards other systems. Basically put, I'm having to make adjustments to the game and the damned thing isn't even out yet.

QUOTE
No, all you really have to do is up the starting build points.

And we're all well aware that different groups have different play levels. Some are street, some are professional, some are epic. But it's easiest to start with the basis of street and add on if you play higher levels than it is for someone who wants to play street-level to have to water down all the FanPro provided material.


I never found it to be an issue. But, in this case, I'll yield the point simply because I don't have enough experience with a street style that starts out as pure street.
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE
The less number-savey people are also getting screwed over, simply because the system automatically discriminates against them and forces them to look towards other systems. Basically put, I'm having to make adjustments to the game and the damned thing isn't even out yet.


That's a bit of a reach. First, rules don't really discriminate against people. The FUDGE system isn't simpler because it wants to be less discriminatory against the math-challenged. I mean, I guess you could say that SR4 is also discriminatory against the less reading-savvy, since it has more pages. Second, if anything, the SR4 rules, overall, are less math-intensive than the SR3 rules, so it should be friendlier to the less number-savvy.
Gambitt
The stats are lower compared with the priority b based third edition weapons specialist. The only point i would like to make is that i am liking what i see if it reduces what a munchin min/max player can easily create with the old rules.
Kagetenshi
The thing that gets my goat is the gear. First item, actually—"we're gonna be kewl and call the OS a random Japanese word, even if it makes no sense!"

~J
Sabosect
QUOTE (Demonseed Elite)
That's a bit of a reach. First, rules don't really discriminate against people. The FUDGE system isn't simpler because it wants to be less discriminatory against the math-challenged. I mean, I guess you could say that SR4 is also discriminatory against the less reading-savvy, since it has more pages. Second, if anything, the SR4 rules, overall, are less math-intensive than the SR3 rules, so it should be friendlier to the less number-savvy.

"Less number savvy" is a nice way of saying "can't deal with large numbers or more complicated bits of math without a calculator and gets frequent headaches while doing that." The system they are using now is a bit more complicated than the old SR3 BP system (I had most of that sucker memorized on my second use of it), as we have already seen from the math on here just trying to figure out the costs of stats and skills.

Take a look at what Ellery and myself did with the sample sheet. In that case, you have to do more math with the results both of us came up with than you did under SR3 BP. In SR3 BP, all you had to do was multiply stat totals by two and occasionally consult a table. One more multiplication and you were done. In this case, you have potential variable costs in stats or potential multiplication, definite variable costs in skills, multiplication in how much money you end up with, and you even have to keep track of how many points you spend on your contacts. That's not a simple or intuitive system. And, yes, it does require more math.
Dashifen
With that it mind, anyone heard mention of an SR4 character generator?
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