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Jürgen Hubert
Neither of the sample characters presented so far have cyberware. Not surprising in the case of the combat mage, but rather surprising in the case of the weapon specialist. Now there are two possibilities:

- The characters are less than optimized for their supposed role. There is precedence for this - IIRC, none of the sample characters in previous Shadowrun editions were really all that effective builds...

- It is actually possible to build a viable combat character without cyberware. Personally, I would welcome this - in previous editions, unless you were playing a mage, if your primary role was combat there was simply no reason to put as much cyber into your character as money and Essence would allow. Non-cybered and non-mage characters were simply dead against cybered characters

Of course, cyberware should still provide a significant edge - it must be worth the money and the increased risk of detection by sensors. But if it is no longer all that overwhelming, I would be happy...
Pandamoanyum
Well, I think it's safe to assume that these sample characters won't be optimized, power-tweaked munchkins. wink.gif

Still, if these characters are anything to judge by, the starting power level really does seem to be more street level.

The SR3 Weapons Specialist's top ranged combat skill is a 6. Throw in 7 more dice from combat pool and that's a potential 13 dice she can sling with a base TN 4 in most situations. The new one can use 8 dice with her best skillset at TN 5. However, that doesn't really bother me (since I'm hopeful there's balance and progression.)

What weirds me out is that I was led to believe that Edge was there to help non-cybered mundanes keep up during the midgame. As such, I would expect the Weapons Specialist to have a higher Edge, but no dice. Granted, it's not *lower* either.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (Jürgen Hubert)
. Non-cybered and non-mage characters were simply dead against cybered characters


as well they should be. After all, isn't that the point of getting cybered? No one says "I think I'll lop off my arm so that I can be just as good or slightly better than everyone else!" Sorry I'm being flippant, but I keep seeing this, and it jsut dones't make sense to me.

Also, the Wpn spec didn't have much cyber in SR3. I'm waiting to see the street sam
hobgoblin
yes, most of what the wen spec had of cyber have been coved by the comlink, smartlink contacts and being an elf rather then a human (both are female tho)...
Shadow_Prophet
QUOTE (Pandamoanyum)
Well, I think it's safe to assume that these sample characters won't be optimized, power-tweaked munchkins. wink.gif

Still, if these characters are anything to judge by, the starting power level really does seem to be more street level.

The SR3 Weapons Specialist's top ranged combat skill is a 6. Throw in 7 more dice from combat pool and that's a potential 13 dice she can sling with a base TN 4 in most situations. The new one can use 8 dice with her best skillset at TN 5. However, that doesn't really bother me (since I'm hopeful there's balance and progression.)

What weirds me out is that I was led to believe that Edge was there to help non-cybered mundanes keep up during the midgame. As such, I would expect the Weapons Specialist to have a higher Edge, but no dice. Granted, it's not *lower* either.

Well I believe you could have only added in 6 dice from combat pool, as I believe, you could only add combat pool up to your skill to the roll. Giving you a pool of 12 not 13 dice. But lets look at it this way.

12 dice vs your tn of 4. 8 dice vs a tn of 5 and unknown threshold. Now just looking at those numbers it would suggest that the 3rd ed version is alot more powerful. However that I believe is a unfair assessment. Due to several things.

Dodge in 4th. No one's quite sure how this actualy works right now. In 3rd you could completely avoid the shot. In 4th, we're not sure how it works yet.

In 3rd the tn would go down because of the smartlink, allowing you to get a much better chance of success especialy with combat pool. In 4th we don't know how the smartlink works. One theory I could throw out there would be that the smartlink might add 1 or 2 automatic hits in, assuming you acchieved atleast one hit yourself. That would be quite a bonus in my opinion, quickly transforming how powerful the weapons specialist was.

In 3rd your tn could skyrocket and you would have only one in a million chance of hitting it. In 4th you have threshold with only having a base tn. While Sabosec says this hinders the system makeing the 'improbable or the impossible' impossible now, I would disagree. One it makes things simpler. All you have to figure out is threshold. No more calcing up of tns. This has worked very very well with white wolf, and the speed of their games has increased quite a bit. Secondly, we don't know how certain things work. Like smartlinks (see above).

In addition the 4th ed weapon specialist seems to be good with ALL firearms and ALL melee weapons as she seems to have the skill groups as upposed to blades and pistols like the mage does. The old weapon specialist didn't have the ability to use all types of weapons equally well. Which I think now is a rather large advantage to the new one.


As for the whole cyberware thing. It apears some cyberware is more wireless, notice the smartlink. I think that works out well. I'm also betting the new ware gives a good bit of edge, but from what i'm seeing and thinking it looks like non cybered chars will definately be a viable concept.
hobgoblin
sabosec's arguments is that in theory you could pull of anything in SR3 given sheer luck and the rule of 6. but in SR4 the rule of 6 only come into play if you apply edge to the roll, and edge is a limited quantity, therefor ending up with many tests that are basicly a waste to roll out...

i can kinda see the argument, but basic ones whole playing style on the theory that it may go, even with a 1:10^300 chance sounds to me like telling murphy to go away. your asking to mess up, and mess up big...
Darkness
Well we don't know how the threshold is going to be applied. I strongly do believe, that the normal TS is 1, especially in Ranged Combat or other combat situations.
Higher Thresholds will only come in with tasks that would take longer than a complex action, like Ritual Sorcery, programming and such. Mostly actions you can have a prolonged roll against. Meaning that you roll multiple times, each roll representing a timespan of work.
All situational modifiers will probably go against the dice pool.

This is of course only IMHO.
Shadow_Prophet
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
sabosec's arguments is that in theory you could pull of anything in SR3 given sheer luck and the rule of 6. but in SR4 the rule of 6 only come into play if you apply edge to the roll, and edge is a limited quantity, therefor ending up with many tests that are basicly a waste to roll out...

i can kinda see the argument, but basic ones whole playing style on the theory that it may go, even with a 1:10^300 chance sounds to me like telling murphy to go away. your asking to mess up, and mess up big...

Yes I'd agree that in theory you could pull off anything in sr3 with enough luck, and a incompitent GM. This is a personal belief mind you. If you're going to set a tn of 30 (a example he used) you shouldn't be letting the player touch the dice. The GM at that point should be the one makeing a roll, as i believe his example delt with falling 120 m (or maybe it was ft). Doesn't even have to be a real roll (GM screens rock). The GM should be determining if the char should live, not pure dumb luck of the player.

As for the way threshold works, I imagine it would be something like the current white wolf system. Combat you ushualy only need 1 sux to land the hit, dodging takes away sux ect. Only actions that realy have a higher threshold in general are things like perception checks, navigating through the woods or other area's, certain spells, jumping from roof top to rooftop.

Things like multiple attacks I believe would subtract dice from your pool not increase the threshold. But thats speculation coming from playing with the white wolf system for some time now (originaly debued in Exalted). Thus looking at things that way that near impossible shot, you might have a minus -7 penalty to your dice pool leaving you with one die to make that critical shot.
mmu1
QUOTE (Darkness)
Well we don't know how the threshold is going to be applied. I strongly do believe, that the normal TS is 1, especially in Ranged Combat or other combat situations.
Higher Thresholds will only come in with tasks that would take longer than a complex action, like Ritual Sorcery, programming and such. Mostly actions you can have a prolonged roll against. Meaning that you roll multiple times, each roll representing a timespan of work.
All situational modifiers will probably go against the dice pool.

This is of course only IMHO.

If I remember some of the playtester comments (or was that from someone who played the demo at Origins?) it's supposed to be harder to hit now, but also much more difficult to actually soak the damage to nothing when you are hit... Which certainly suggests thresholds higher than one.
hobgoblin
and i have a similar view about it, darkness (and i belive i posted it at page 7 in the weapon specialist thread or so). i dont get why people talk about applying a insane treshold to a ranged attack. if i want to fuck up a ranged attack i would go for less dice rather then applying a treshold.
mfb
why? if you take away one die, the shooter only loses a 1-in-3 chance to get a hit. if you raise the threshold by one, you 100% remove one hit from the shooter's total.
Darkness
QUOTE (mmu1)
If I remember some of the playtester comments (or was that from someone who played the demo at Origins?) it's supposed to be harder to hit now, but also much more difficult to actually soak the damage to nothing when you are hit... Which certainly suggests thresholds higher than one.

Not neccecarily. Under circumstances your pool may be reduced considerably (speculation of course.) Just take a look at the Condition Monitor. With the Weapon Specialist having 8 Dice (i think)a -4 would reduce that easily to a 4. Statistically, and leaving Edge and other unknown factors aside for the moment she gains 1 Hit. Since all Combat related tests are Opposed now, as it seems IIRC, her opponent just needs 1 success himself to avoid the hit.
The issue of the damage reduction doesn't neccecarily hints at an higher threshold involved. Let's say, as we don't know jack about the weapon values, and so these Values are just guesses, an Ares Predator iV has a damag code of 9. I just assume here, that Armor subtracts from this (Flak Vest -3) leaving a 6. Now she rolls her Body (again: statistically) and has a lucky day by assuming 2 Hits.
Subtracting that again leaves 4. She just suffered 4 Hitboxes of damage without a higher Threshold.
booklord
QUOTE
It is actually possible to build a viable combat character without cyberware. Personally, I would welcome this - in previous editions, unless you were playing a mage, if your primary role was combat there was simply no reason to put as much cyber into your character as money and Essence would allow. Non-cybered and non-mage characters were simply dead against cybered characters


The weapon specialist's highest skill is Armorer. I've got to say its an extremely rare thing to see a character where the highest skill is one that will pretty much only be used between runs and not during them. She also seems to have this fetich for being skilled in all forms of weaponry. ( which seems very odd to me ) Most characters try to specialize.
hobgoblin
and dont forget that it was stated that when armor fully absorbs damage done it will convert said damage to stun rather then just having it vanish.

and there is allso a stat for armor penetration. im guessing it reduces the effectiveness of the armor by that amount for one attack.

and mfb, to me a 1:3 chance reduction of hits sounds better for the playability of the game then a 100% reduction. atleast it gives the feel that you still have a chance. and isnt that the argument sabosect is trying to make?

basicly, in combat you dont want to deal with absolutes, as that makes the fight boring and predictable. either i kill him or he kills me. what you want are people taking wounds, maybe panicing as they are near death, then using time on bandages and heal spells, getting behind cover and so on. when you dont fully know what will happen even when you have all the numbers it generates a more dynamic feel nyahnyah.gif
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (mfb)
why? if you take away one die, the shooter only loses a 1-in-3 chance to get a hit. if you raise the threshold by one, you 100% remove one hit from the shooter's total.

Indeed. It's only mildly worse to take away those three dice (all of them).

hobgoblin: threshold is better for maintaining possibility than removing dice unless maximum threshold is 1 (giving a 1/3 chance minimum of success, which would be silly), as you can still roll successes on those other two dice while you don't get that chance if they're taken away.

~J
Shadow_Prophet
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
QUOTE (mfb @ Aug 18 2005, 09:06 AM)
why? if you take away one die, the shooter only loses a 1-in-3 chance to get a hit. if you raise the threshold by one, you 100% remove one hit from the shooter's total.

Indeed. It's only mildly worse to take away those three dice (all of them).

hobgoblin: threshold is better for maintaining possibility than removing dice unless maximum threshold is 1 (giving a 1/3 chance minimum of success, which would be silly), as you can still roll successes on those other two dice while you don't get that chance if they're taken away.

~J

Well let me share with you some experiances from playing Exalted (which utilizes a system very close to what sr4's seems to be shaping up to be)

In exalted I have a dicepool like what you have in sr4 (atrib + skill in dice) and a fixed tn. There is also threshold, which for landing a attack is 1 (unless there is some power, or spell active that increases the threshold for some strange reason). Say my dice pool is 8 (4 stat 4 skill). The tn in exalted is 7 8 9 or 10 where 10's count as 2 sux, not rerolled (ofcourse using d10's). Now say i have a -1 wound penalty. So I only have 7 dice, and I want to make two attacks which subtracts more dice. So for my first attack i would roll 6 dice, and 5 dice for the second (assuming i'm not using powers which lend me more dice). Now I don't have realy great chances at success right there. Decent but not great. They ofcourse have the option to dodge, or parry, removing my success'. then to calculate dammage its left over sux + str + weapon damage - targets soak value = dice in damage minimum 1 (by the base system not power combat).

Now sr4 doesn't quite seem to have the exact same aproach, can't completely tell how combat will play out but. From having played Exalted for some time and experiancing what its like to loose 3-4 dice + on a roll, I can tell you, loosing dice in your pool can be cripling. Sure you may still be able to land the shot, but they've got a much much easier time to dodge and or parry.

And it still gives you that element of being able to make that lucky shot. If you're upping the threshold, you're crippling their chances, not just reducing them. Already they're taking a hit on their dicepools from things, and then you're going to make it even tougher in combat to even think of landing a hit? No increasing the threshold in combat is a horrible idea. Decreasing their dicepool is a better way to even things out and levi penalties.
Cheops
QUOTE (booklord)
QUOTE
It is actually possible to build a viable combat character without cyberware. Personally, I would welcome this - in previous editions, unless you were playing a mage, if your primary role was combat there was simply no reason to put as much cyber into your character as money and Essence would allow. Non-cybered and non-mage characters were simply dead against cybered characters


The weapon specialist's highest skill is Armorer. I've got to say its an extremely rare thing to see a character where the highest skill is one that will pretty much only be used between runs and not during them. She also seems to have this fetich for being skilled in all forms of weaponry. ( which seems very odd to me ) Most characters try to specialize.

Actually if the game is going more "street-level" this makes perfect sense. By having armorer be her highest skill she can actually build and repair her armor in between runs instead of having to skrimp and save money that she doesn't have to buy new stuff. Hopefully this is accompanied with better rules for building things. Secondly, if it is more gangsta then you don't want to be specialized. Most real world gangsters (and I'm talking the real sell-crack-on-the-street corner ones) need to have a wide range of fighting skills because they don't know what they'll be armed with in any given fight. Better to be able to pick up any object, any gun, or just roll up the sleeves and be able to defend oneself than to run around looking for a specific weapon. This is why clubs and unarmed were so good in SR3--they covered a much wider range of situations so you weren't completely screwed (or better yet spurs and cyber-implant combat).
Cynic project
QUOTE (Cheops)
QUOTE (booklord @ Aug 18 2005, 02:19 PM)
QUOTE
It is actually possible to build a viable combat character without cyberware. Personally, I would welcome this - in previous editions, unless you were playing a mage, if your primary role was combat there was simply no reason to put as much cyber into your character as money and Essence would allow. Non-cybered and non-mage characters were simply dead against cybered characters


The weapon specialist's highest skill is Armorer. I've got to say its an extremely rare thing to see a character where the highest skill is one that will pretty much only be used between runs and not during them. She also seems to have this fetich for being skilled in all forms of weaponry. ( which seems very odd to me ) Most characters try to specialize.

Actually if the game is going more "street-level" this makes perfect sense. By having armorer be her highest skill she can actually build and repair her armor in between runs instead of having to skrimp and save money that she doesn't have to buy new stuff. Hopefully this is accompanied with better rules for building things. Secondly, if it is more gangsta then you don't want to be specialized. Most real world gangsters (and I'm talking the real sell-crack-on-the-street corner ones) need to have a wide range of fighting skills because they don't know what they'll be armed with in any given fight. Better to be able to pick up any object, any gun, or just roll up the sleeves and be able to defend oneself than to run around looking for a specific weapon. This is why clubs and unarmed were so good in SR3--they covered a much wider range of situations so you weren't completely screwed (or better yet spurs and cyber-implant combat).

but shadowrun runners aren't gangtsa. They are paid to better than that. They are paid to be good enough to slid between the cracks. So wile the gun slinger even i a gang may not get a spific type of pistol.They are going to have a pistol, unless a plot device event takes weapons away.

I mean unless you play a character with less than a few hundred bucks on ammo you should not have to worry about running out between run.Now during a run sure. But really if you are such a N00B that you can't get ammo for your guns you are most likely dead anyways.
mmu1
QUOTE (Cheops)
Most real world gangsters (and I'm talking the real sell-crack-on-the-street corner ones) need to have a wide range of fighting skills because they don't know what they'll be armed with in any given fight.

Real world "gangsters" and drug dealers have a "wide range of fighting skills"? Which real world is that?
Kagetenshi
This one.

Gangster/drug dealer fighting skills:

Having no idea how to use a gun but making up for it by pulling the trigger a lot 6

Having no idea how to use an edged weapon but making up for it by swinging it around a lot 6

Having no idea how to fight but usually making it up by being more muscular than a sizable portion of the populace 6

Getting their asses handed to them by most people who know what they're doing 6

~J
warrior_allanon
you know, after catching up with my reading (ie reading all the forum here), i REALLY dont like the looks of this....but i still take a wait and see attitude because if worse comes to worst, i can always use 4ed to run a live action game....no i'm serious here...

hyzmarca
QUOTE (Cynic project)
I mean unless you play a character with less than a few hundred bucks on ammo you should not have to worry about running out between run.Now during a run sure. But really if you are such a N00B that you can't get ammo for your guns you are most likely dead anyways.

Not getting ammo for your guns isn't as much of a problem as not getting your guns.

Runners aren't likely to run out of ammo during a run or between runs. However, they are highly likely to be kidnaped by a mad AI and forced navigate a maze while being harassed by wave after wave of super-powered killbots with nothing to defend himself with but his wits and a peice of broken rebar.

Also, upscale clubs and resturants usually like for you to check your weapons at the door.
Ellery
QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet)
[Using variable threshold, fixed TN] makes things simpler. All you have to figure out is threshold. No more calcing up of tns.
It's simpler to figure out a small number based on modifers than...a small number based on modifiers? Riiiight.

Maybe you left off some of the logic here, but it's a little hard to swallow as stated.
Critias
QUOTE (Ellery)
QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet)
[Using variable threshold, fixed TN] makes things simpler. All you have to figure out is threshold. No more calcing up of tns.
It's simpler to figure out a small number based on modifers than...a small number based on modifiers? Riiiight.

Maybe you left off some of the logic here, but it's a little hard to swallow as stated.

Being hard to swallow hasn't kept them from ramming it down our throats like a nasty back-alley porn flick for, what, six months now?

Why should they stop now, on the eve of the ascension?
Shadow_Prophet
QUOTE (Ellery)
QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet)
[Using variable threshold, fixed TN] makes things simpler. All you have to figure out is threshold. No more calcing up of tns.
It's simpler to figure out a small number based on modifers than...a small number based on modifiers? Riiiight.

Maybe you left off some of the logic here, but it's a little hard to swallow as stated.

Actualy if you think about it fixed tn DOES make it far simpler. You always, always know, when you roll the dice, which are hits. From a players stand point, you don't nessicarily need to know the threshold of success, just the modifiers to the dice pool.

The gm can tell you to roll a perception test. You roll the dice and you can tell him how many success you got. you don't need to know the threshold, makes it alot simpler in my eyes. And from having played exalted for as long as i have (since it came out) it realy realy does speed up the game itself. For both the gm and the players.
Nerbert
The new mechanics are two degrees of complexity instead of three. Its arguable that threshold wasn't used very often in the old system, but its completely irrelevant. The new system is simpler, by one degree of complexity.
mfb
yes. and a tricycle is less complex than an automobile.
Nerbert
QUOTE (mfb)
yes. and a tricycle is less complex than an automobile.

Yes. A tricycle is one degree of complexity away from an automobile. sarcastic.gif
mfb
if i were making a point about specific degrees of complexity, that would be a valid response. as i wasn't, it's not.
Wireknight
A better analogy might be to note that algebra is one degree of complexity away from calculus. I mean, jeez, what useful thing can you do with calculus that you can't do better and simpler with algebra?
Sabosect
In the actual mechanics of how they achievement movement? Definitely.

But, it's not how they operate that concerns us. It's all of the stuff involved. And that doesn't matter if you're talking about cars, tricycles, or RPG systems.
mfb
now, wk, stop it with all that math talk. you'll scare folk.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Wireknight)
A better analogy might be to note that algebra is one degree of complexity away from calculus. I mean, jeez, what useful thing can you do with calculus that you can't do better and simpler with algebra?

That is sarcasm, right.
I hope that is sarcasm.
If it isn't, I'll have to track you down, fly to your home, and beat you up.

Everything is simpiler with calculus.
Ellery
Well, the GM still has to tell the player what type of test it is, and how many dice to roll (from bonuses/penalties), and then the player says number of hits.

In SR3, the GM has to tell the player what type of test it is, and what the target number is (from bonuses/penalties), and then the player says number of successes.

I don't see a big difference here, since in SR3 bonuses and penalties to the number of dice was relatively rare. In those cases where it did happen, yes, it's an extra thing to keep track of. And if SR4 mostly changes thresholds so it's similarly rare to change dice, then there's a very clear speedup in the process. If not, it doesn't sound very impressive. There should be some speedup, since you combine worrying about the threshold with worrying about the number of successes, but the impact shouldn't be huge, especially if all the same modifiers are still in effect. Calculating those takes time--actually rolling and communicating the results is usually less burdensome.
Req
QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet)
Yes I'd agree that in theory you could pull off anything in sr3 with enough luck, and a incompitent GM. This is a personal belief mind you. If you're going to set a tn of 30 (a example he used) you shouldn't be letting the player touch the dice. The GM at that point should be the one makeing a roll, as i believe his example delt with falling 120 m (or maybe it was ft). Doesn't even have to be a real roll (GM screens rock). The GM should be determining if the char should live, not pure dumb luck of the player.

I'm startled that nobody else commented on this, so I will:

This is one of the worst things I've ever seen. If you are playing a game (which we are) and someone wants to take an amazingly risky chance (like your TN 30 suggestion), why the hell wouldn't you want it to come down to the pure dumb luck of the player?

Rules exist so that folks can choose what risks to take, and take them under the rules - and if they pull it off, it's great. If I was ever playing in a game where I tried something risky, and the GM just told me that I succeeded or failed, I would walk away. Either option totally defeats the purpose of choosing to take a risk, and turns it from a communal story that the group is telling together into a story that the GM is telling and the players are just listening to. And that sucks.
blakkie
QUOTE (Req)
QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet @ Aug 18 2005, 06:58 AM)
Yes I'd agree that in theory you could pull off anything in sr3 with enough luck, and a incompitent GM.  This is a personal belief mind you.  If you're going to set a tn of 30 (a example he used) you shouldn't be letting the player touch the dice.  The GM at that point should be the one makeing a roll, as i believe his example delt with falling 120 m (or maybe it was ft).  Doesn't even have to be a real roll (GM screens rock).  The GM should be determining if the char should live, not pure dumb luck of the player.

I'm startled that nobody else commented on this, so I will:

This is one of the worst things I've ever seen. If you are playing a game (which we are) and someone wants to take an amazingly risky chance (like your TN 30 suggestion), why the hell wouldn't you want it to come down to the pure dumb luck of the player?

Rules exist so that folks can choose what risks to take, and take them under the rules - and if they pull it off, it's great. If I was ever playing in a game where I tried something risky, and the GM just told me that I succeeded or failed, I would walk away. Either option totally defeats the purpose of choosing to take a risk, and turns it from a communal story that the group is telling together into a story that the GM is telling and the players are just listening to. And that sucks.

Page 56
Sabosect
QUOTE (Shadow_Prophet @ Aug 18 2005, 08:29 AM)
In 3rd your tn could skyrocket and you would have only one in a million chance of hitting it.  In 4th you have threshold with only having a base tn.  While Sabosec says this hinders the system makeing the 'improbable or the impossible' impossible now, I would disagree.  One it makes things simpler.  All you have to figure out is threshold.  No more calcing up of tns.  This has worked very very well with white wolf, and the speed of their games has increased quite a bit.  Secondly, we don't know how certain things work.  Like smartlinks (see above).

Okay, a few items:

1) I wasn't reading this thread.

2) Try to spell my damned name right. Is it that hard to see the "t" at the end? Just be glad I don't decide to get annoyed with you and ask you to spell out what it is short for (Sabotage Section).

3) Not my quote. Try to get your quotes right before you attribute them.

4) I pretty much proved it. If, because of the scenario, you have a TN of 30, at least you have a chance of hitting that. Under SR4, if the scenario gives you a Threshhold of 12 and you only have 6 dice, you have no way in Hell of succeeding. No one has been able to prove the opposite yet.

5) I can come up with a TN right off my head. Same with a Threshhold. As long as it isn't absurd compared to the situation, I don't need to memorize the modifiers. Most GMs have that luxury.

6) This is supposed to be Shadowrun, not Shadow: The Running. What works for Whitewolf doesn't necessarily work for us. Next, you'll be arguing that they should use d20 just because it is a "simple system and works for WotC."

7) You can't get any faster than I give you a number, you roll the dice, you pass or fail as a result of the rolls, and we roleplay it out. Unless you simply skip the roleplay or the rolling.

8. This system sets up scenarios where I have to tell a person they simply fail at a task. Why? Because they don't have enough dice and there is no way they can get enough.

9) A one in a million chance is still better than no chance at all. In this world, that means at least 6000 people can succeed. Anyone could be one of the 6000.

Now, for Req:

QUOTE
I'm startled that nobody else commented on this, so I will:


I would have had I been reading the topic. One of my players suggested I read it. If you'll notice, it's not the only flaw in his logic. Also not the only flaw in his post.

And, yeah, I agree with you.
blakkie
QUOTE (Sabosect @ Aug 19 2005, 11:55 AM)
4) I pretty much proved it. If, because of the scenario, you have a TN of 30, at least you have a chance of hitting that. Under SR4, if the scenario gives you a Threshhold of 12 and you only have 6 dice, you have no way in Hell of succeeding. No one has been able to prove the opposite yet.

There is an elephant outside your home right now! As proof i submit that you can't see every spot outside your home at this moment, the elephant is there in the blindspot. So until you walk outside we can safely assume i've "pretty much" proved there is an elephant there?

P.S. Page 56.
Kagetenshi
Dude, no need for blind spots. I can see the elephant just fine.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to keep him from trampling the hedge.

~J
Sabosect
Actually, I have a lovely view of the front of my house right now. And, I'm amazed you knew about the elephant. How did you guess I have an elephant statue in my front yard?

Saying "Page 56" may make sense in your mind, but unless you post details all you are doing is wasting time. The Rule of 6 itself doesn't really mean anything. Is it referring to additional successes? Or is it possible the TN can vary as well? Without that information, you really don't have a point.
blakkie
QUOTE (Sabosect @ Aug 19 2005, 01:35 PM)
Actually, I have a lovely view of the front of my house right now. And, I'm amazed you knew about the elephant. How did you guess I have an elephant statue in my front yard?

Saying "Page 56" may make sense in your mind, but unless you post details all you are doing is wasting time. The Rule of 6 itself doesn't really mean anything. Is it referring to additional successes? Or is it possible the TN can vary as well? Without that information, you really don't have a point.

He moved out front?

QUOTE
Without that information, you really don't have a point.


Without that information your "pretty much proved" means jackshit.

P.S. Watch out for the heffalump 'round back!
Sabosect
The words "pretty much" leave open the logical conclusion that it is not completely proven and, thus, still has holes in it. It's like how evolution is still pretty much proven. It'll take something more than some heading in the TOC to disprove it. So until further info becomes available, my point remains.

And, yes, I know about the heffalump. Feed him daily.
blakkie
QUOTE (Sabosect)
The words "pretty much" leave open the logical conclusion that it is not completely proven and, thus, still has holes in it. It's like how evolution is still pretty much proven. It'll take something more than some heading in the TOC to disprove it. So until further info becomes available, my point remains.

Equating the level of certainty of the basic gist of evolution with your statement?

rotfl.gif
Sabosect
Yeah, I know. For some reason, I felt like a silly comparison after snapping. The good news is, a certain group of people decided to shut up. And I swear, I'm going to vindictive GM their asses for the shit pulled today. Let's see how they enjoy a hike through the Yucaton with only skinning knives and loin cloths. I'll tell them about the Azzie strike force when they hear the mortars firing.

Basically, I need more information. With what I have, my conclusions are true. I've so far had my head handed to me several times today, and I'm not unhappy about it.
blakkie
QUOTE (Sabosect)
Basically, I need more information. With what I have, my conclusions are true.

See, that is what you are missing. With what you have it is at best inconclusive.

What exactly are you basing no exploding 6's on? The only real source of that is the very same source that says there are exploding 6's some times.
Sabosect
Actually, I'm just not factoring them at the moment. Originally, I was basing it on the information that dealt with Threshhold in the FAQs. Now, however, I'm not factoring it due to not knowing how it will work. Will it provide extra dice, or will it help with a variable TN? The FAQ says the TN doesn't roam, but at this point I'm not exactly sure they didn't leave something out. Ya know, like they did when talking about Threshholds.
tisoz
Found the info on Technomancers, page 232. They need no cyber or electronics at all.
Nikoli
Yikes
Sabosect
Well, I think I just found my new character...
Nikoli
How do they accomplish storage? That was always the bane of any Otaku i would make, no cash for storage devices.
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