Wait... So because they don't fill the same roles, they are not combining? So you are going to tell me the heart and liver do not work to keep the body alive simply because they serve different functions in it? Because that's exactly what you are saying.
So, tell me: How, exactly, can you keep a cyberzombie alive and effective without the magic portion? The answer is that you can't. Just because they don't serve the same roles, or don't even provide equal shares of work, doesn't mean they are not combining. In this case, technology fills most roles and magic keeps the creature alive when it should be dead. You cannot have a cyberzombie without both elements.
Full Version: Cyberware and SR4 characters
You need both elements. But they have not become the same element.
This is like basic chemistry: You need oxygen and hydrogen to have water. The water is a combination of them. However, that doesn't mean they merged into the same element. Same thing working here. Something that exists as a combination of items does not logically come to mean that all items to undergo fusion. It logically allows for them to remain separate items that contribute to a greater whole.
Also, I think the point here is that Technomancers are essentially magicians from a rules perspective. "If I can see it, I can bend it to my will." It destroys the flavor.
| QUOTE (Zen Shooter01) |
| Also, I think the point here is that Technomancers are essentially magicians from a rules perspective. "If I can see it, I can bend it to my will." It destroys the flavor. |
There hasn't been anything about LOS for Technomancers.
its more like, i can feel that wifi hotspot over there. hang on while i bend it to my will.
sounds more like some sort of limited psionics or something.
so i repeat an theory of mine. technomancers and wizards use the same areas of the brain but the technomacners talk to the matrix "plane" rather then the astral plane
as in, they have no magical ability but the same brain functions that enable the wizard to manipulate mana enables the technomancer to talk computer natively.
so they are awakend in a way, but in a very diffrent way.
hell, its just a matter of taking the current research that the body reacts to even the tinyest amounts of EM and giving it a 6th world spin
so, if one claim that all have the inate tools to do magic in them but not everyone have the spark that enables them to access mana, and then theorize that somehow the development of the asist interface in combo with a unknown factor (the deep resonance) basicly allows the technomancer to use said tools to talk computer.
sounds more like some sort of limited psionics or something.
so i repeat an theory of mine. technomancers and wizards use the same areas of the brain but the technomacners talk to the matrix "plane" rather then the astral plane
as in, they have no magical ability but the same brain functions that enable the wizard to manipulate mana enables the technomancer to talk computer natively.
so they are awakend in a way, but in a very diffrent way.
hell, its just a matter of taking the current research that the body reacts to even the tinyest amounts of EM and giving it a 6th world spin
so, if one claim that all have the inate tools to do magic in them but not everyone have the spark that enables them to access mana, and then theorize that somehow the development of the asist interface in combo with a unknown factor (the deep resonance) basicly allows the technomancer to use said tools to talk computer.
| QUOTE |
| its just a matter of taking the current research that the body reacts to even the tinyest amounts of EM |
What research would that be?
| QUOTE (Ellery @ Aug 20 2005, 11:10 AM) | ||
What research would that be? |
Well chemical reactions do occur in our bodies by EM absorbsion raising the energy state of atoms. That's a very basic building block, with an enormous gap before it could be usable, but....
Thermal fluctuations swamp everything until you get near optical frequencies. Try again.
| QUOTE (Sabosect) |
| This is like basic chemistry: You need oxygen and hydrogen to have water. The water is a combination of them. However, that doesn't mean they merged into the same element. Same thing working here. Something that exists as a combination of items does not logically come to mean that all items to undergo fusion. It logically allows for them to remain separate items that contribute to a greater whole. |
That is nonsense. The water example is precisely what the "fusion" of magic and technology in a cyberzombie is NOT like. The oxygen and hydrogen might not have fused into a new element, but they've fused into a new stable molecule, that no longer has any of the properties of oxygen or hydrogen.
Cyberzombies are like... I dunno, artificial elements from the very end of the periodic table, or better yet, antimatter - unstable, and gone the instant you stop applying energy to keep them in existence.
| QUOTE |
| Out of several million trials, they've detected small but "statistically significant" signs that minds may be able to interact with machines. However, researchers are careful not to claim that minds cause an effect or that they know the nature of the communication. |
Food for thought.
| QUOTE (Ellery) |
| Thermal fluctuations swamp everything until you get near optical frequencies. Try again. |
So the frequency is somewhere in that range? Or there is some sort of differential mechanism to pull the signal out of the noise? *shurg*
Supposing you find a frequency that can be absorbed by molecules, you then find that human bodies (and a whole pile of other things) absorb it, meaning that communications become line of sight. Yay.
Some things are just done much better by technology, where we have large metallic and semiconductor structures available as building materials, than by biology. Radio communications is one of these (especially low power/high bandwidth communications).
Some things are just done much better by technology, where we have large metallic and semiconductor structures available as building materials, than by biology. Radio communications is one of these (especially low power/high bandwidth communications).
| QUOTE (Ellery @ Aug 20 2005, 01:08 PM) |
| Supposing you find a frequency that can be absorbed by molecules, you then find that human bodies (and a whole pile of other things) absorb it, meaning that communications become line of sight. Yay. Some things are just done much better by technology, where we have large metallic and semiconductor structures available as building materials, than by biology. Radio communications is one of these (especially low power/high bandwidth communications). |
Have you seen this movie? I certainly don't recommend it, but if you watch it over and over the negative reenforcement from the pain caused by trying to think about the underlying science could help you learn how to turn that thought proccess off.
Or it could lead to you eating through a tube and having someone change your diapers for the rest of your life.
So bad writing is not only a usable excuse, but a laudable one that we should come to appriciate?
I like some science with my science fiction. Not just fiction.
| QUOTE (Raskolnikov) |
| So bad writing is not only a usable excuse, but a laudable one that we should come to appriciate? |
No. But to attempting to analyze and rationalize, and expecting a provable explaination within current accepted scientific knowledge, of each minute detail of fictional science, especially when the world is mixed with some sort of new age or fantasy element, is ultimately a dead end.
| QUOTE (Ellery @ Aug 20 2005, 01:44 PM) |
| I like some science with my science fiction. Not just fiction. |
Putting up arguements that something you don't understand is more efficent than something else you don't understand isn't just "some science". It is anal retentive nit picking.
EDIT: Which i guess is your thing. Have fun.....
That's a pretty major detail, a whole class of characters who rely on a single-point of clearly incorrect physical manipulation.
Magic can be explained as just that, but without any scientific basis a Technomancer's ability can only be explained by Magic, which is perfectly reasonable if they just came out and said Technomancers were magical, because there is no other explanation within the realm of a game where science (and specifically) physics still works the same as it does in real life (though not always well-modeled).
Anyway, my problem isn't their ability to receive EM signals. It's that they can broadcast them from their brains.
Anyway, my problem isn't their ability to receive EM signals. It's that they can broadcast them from their brains.
| QUOTE (Raskolnikov @ Aug 20 2005, 01:49 PM) |
| That's a pretty major detail, a whole class of characters who rely on a single-point of clearly incorrect physical manipulation. |
This reminds me of yesterday when Sabosect was convinced that the information available to him said there were no exploding 6's in SR4. *shrug*
In my experience the best science fiction doesn't bother trying to explain everything. Armageddon fails because it is about nonsense, and there's really nothing else in the movie to draw on.
Batman Begins is almost, or even more, nonsensical and yet it stands because the purpose of the movie does not revolve around the bad science.
The purpose of Shadowrun is not to establish a detailed scientific model of an imaginary universe. It is to explore the consequences of juxtaposing two radically different aspects of a specific set of subcultures. There are different ways of exploring these themes and I think that Shadowrun 4 is taking new paths of investigation relative to the old editions.
Personally, I find that goal a laudable one in and of itself. There is no doubt that it is fraut with peril. It remains to be seen wether they have been successful or not at their two, probably divergent, publishing goals. Making a good game, and making a compelling universe.
Batman Begins is almost, or even more, nonsensical and yet it stands because the purpose of the movie does not revolve around the bad science.
The purpose of Shadowrun is not to establish a detailed scientific model of an imaginary universe. It is to explore the consequences of juxtaposing two radically different aspects of a specific set of subcultures. There are different ways of exploring these themes and I think that Shadowrun 4 is taking new paths of investigation relative to the old editions.
Personally, I find that goal a laudable one in and of itself. There is no doubt that it is fraut with peril. It remains to be seen wether they have been successful or not at their two, probably divergent, publishing goals. Making a good game, and making a compelling universe.
I'm rather doubtful that you, blakkie, know what I understand, what I partially understand, and what I don't understand, in the context of a game that is explicitly built on top of the real world, but with some added twists.
And I'm not sure I can figure out what you understand and what you don't, but if you'd like, when it's not clear to me that you understand something, I'll stop talking to you about it.
And I'm not sure I can figure out what you understand and what you don't, but if you'd like, when it's not clear to me that you understand something, I'll stop talking to you about it.
| QUOTE (SL James @ Aug 20 2005, 01:50 PM) |
| Anyway, my problem isn't their ability to receive EM signals. It's that they can broadcast them from their brains. |
Or bodies as transmitters.
But maybe Fanpro plans to make the underlying IC mechanics for technos magic. Active magic that is always acting as they deck, or an instantaneous magic that permanently transforms the body (which is functionally similar to nano/bio technology senario).
That Deus was able to partially simulate Otaku suggests that the forbearers of Technomancers were not actively magic, or at least what they did there nearly duplicatable using mundane means. Unless Deus was somehow using magic?
Whether or not technos can operate without penalty within a manawarp (or across an astral barrier) is going to be a pretty good test of which way it goes. At least whether or not active magic is being used.
| QUOTE (Ellery) |
| ......I'll stop talking to you about it. |
Past promises not kept.
The problem is you claim to know what you're talking about. It is up to us to identify when you're obviously trailing behind the knowledge train by context. Since you almost always seem to be misunderstanding 50% of what is said, it's tough to figure out when you don't get something at all.
| QUOTE (Nerbert) |
| It is to explore the consequences of juxtaposing two radically different aspects of a specific set of subcultures. |
Yes, I think this is exactly right. This is why I think they ought to pay some attention to getting the subcultures right. If they don't, and they just blur into each other and such, then where's the juxtaposition?
In the case of SR, the tech/magic divide provides one clear source of juxtaposition. Having poorly-defined technomancers wandering around in the middle of it doesn't help matters much, especially if we are to believe that they're on the tech side. Tech then looks a lot like magic (since tech is breaking laws of physics, not just magic). Where's the juxtaposition go then?
Well, there's still some left, since in some places you use the word digital and in other places you use the word magical. But it diminishes the contrast, and if you're using that contrast as an important aspect of the setting, it diminishes the setting.
In the case of SR, the tech/magic divide provides one clear source of juxtaposition. Having poorly-defined technomancers wandering around in the middle of it doesn't help matters much, especially if we are to believe that they're on the tech side. Tech then looks a lot like magic (since tech is breaking laws of physics, not just magic). Where's the juxtaposition go then?
Well, there's still some left, since in some places you use the word digital and in other places you use the word magical. But it diminishes the contrast, and if you're using that contrast as an important aspect of the setting, it diminishes the setting.
| QUOTE (Nerbert) |
| Batman Begins is almost, or even more, nonsensical and yet it stands because the purpose of the movie does not revolve around the bad science. |
An excellent example, where the primary plot device was the microwaves blowing up watermains but leaving people untouched.
| QUOTE (Ellery) |
| In the case of SR, the tech/magic divide provides one clear source of juxtaposition. Having poorly-defined technomancers wandering around in the middle of it doesn't help matters much, especially if we are to believe that they're on the tech side. Tech then looks a lot like magic (since tech is breaking laws of physics, not just magic). Where's the juxtaposition go then? |
| QUOTE (Dunkelzahn's Will) |
| To the first party to successfully invent an artificial mechanism capable of producing and sustaining a magical effect with no assistance from a living magician or spirit, I leave 8 million nuyen for additional research into the fusion of magic and technology. |
Seems to me, like they meant to blurr this line a while ago.
| QUOTE (Raskolnikov) |
| The problem is you claim to know what you're talking about. It is up to us to identify when you're obviously trailing behind the knowledge train by context. Since you almost always seem to be misunderstanding 50% of what is said, it's tough to figure out when you don't get something at all. |
Wooot, wooot! All aboard Raskolnikov's Knowledge Train. Next stop, Misconstruingville!
Huh, I'd have quoted the same thing to show that they wanted the clear juxtaposition, and that closing the gap was an important plot element and would happen with great effort and attention.
Then it boils down to taste it seems.
Well, it boils down to developer intent, really. If they meant to blur it (not through hard work IC but just by losing some of the distinction), then they're doing fine. If they didn't mean to (and it is true that technomancers emit radio signals from their bodies without augmentations), then they screwed up.
We might prefer one or the other goal depending on taste. But given the goal, I don't think it's a matter of individual taste whether they did a good job of it or not. That's a matter of collective taste; a high rate of people who find the taste pleasing means it was a good job.
We might prefer one or the other goal depending on taste. But given the goal, I don't think it's a matter of individual taste whether they did a good job of it or not. That's a matter of collective taste; a high rate of people who find the taste pleasing means it was a good job.
| QUOTE (Ellery) |
| We might prefer one or the other goal depending on taste. But given the goal, I don't think it's a matter of individual taste whether they did a good job of it or not. That's a matter of collective taste; a high rate of people who find the taste pleasing means it was a good job. |
They might have left it open on purpose. So that they can check out what the majority thinks about that, respectively check the most common interpretation, and then swing in that direction.
| QUOTE (Darkness @ Aug 20 2005, 02:46 PM) | ||
They might have left it open on purpose. So that they can check out what the majority thinks about that, respectively check the most common interpretation, and then swing in that direction. |
Or they don't want to fully reveal their intended plot yet.
Of course, it could also be that the answer is explained clearly and definitely in the book, but none of us have read it yet.
In general, however, I'm on Ellery's side, but I'd accept Blackie's last comment as an acceptable substitute. "It started happening, we're reseaching it, but currently scientists are stumped" isn't too much of a jump, but it is a bit of a cop out (assuming they don't give us something reasonable soon.)
If technomancers are in fact techno more than mancer, it would be good to have a technology based (as in, scientific) explanation. If it's simply magic, I'll lose interest in the character class, as it's just one more mage in a magic-saturated world and stick to deckers, but that's personal taste. In general, as Ellery has said, I like some science in my science fiction. The more the better. And some of us DO play for more hard science fiction (or at least, reasonable science fiction). Magic in and of itself is not totally exclusive from such a genre, but for people like me, the game loses something when 'we can't explain, it's magic' becomes more common than good science.
In general, however, I'm on Ellery's side, but I'd accept Blackie's last comment as an acceptable substitute. "It started happening, we're reseaching it, but currently scientists are stumped" isn't too much of a jump, but it is a bit of a cop out (assuming they don't give us something reasonable soon.)
If technomancers are in fact techno more than mancer, it would be good to have a technology based (as in, scientific) explanation. If it's simply magic, I'll lose interest in the character class, as it's just one more mage in a magic-saturated world and stick to deckers, but that's personal taste. In general, as Ellery has said, I like some science in my science fiction. The more the better. And some of us DO play for more hard science fiction (or at least, reasonable science fiction). Magic in and of itself is not totally exclusive from such a genre, but for people like me, the game loses something when 'we can't explain, it's magic' becomes more common than good science.
| QUOTE (nezumi @ Aug 20 2005, 04:06 PM) |
| Of course, it could also be that the answer is explained clearly and definitely in the book, but none of us have read it yet. |
If they mention manawarps, which might be delayed till Street Magic, then the answer is in there. If they explain that it humps magic use, but don't mention anything about an effect of, for example, outerspace on technos then that is damn close to clinch for whether or not they are actively engaged in Magic. EDIT: On the other hand if manawarps DO affect technos that is also clinch that they are awakened metahumans in disguse.
The only out i could see at that point would be them using a wholely different type of 'magic'. At that point they wouldn't really be the same as adepts/mages anyway.
EDIT: It could be possible that they take the D20 copout where it is up to the GM whether psionics is magic or not, and then have separate threads of rules for each of the two choices. However that is doubtful given that in SR the rules are tied much closer to the setting.
or better yet, the technomancers are a unknown joker in the deck of the world
hell, wasnt a girl in the gibson books able to access the net with just her brain? ok, a brain laterd based on ideas from AI's but still
like i said, my take was only a theory, and most likely a flawed one at that.
but i realy dont care. in a gameworld where dragons own a major european megacorp anything goes
hell, wasnt a girl in the gibson books able to access the net with just her brain? ok, a brain laterd based on ideas from AI's but still
like i said, my take was only a theory, and most likely a flawed one at that.
but i realy dont care. in a gameworld where dragons own a major european megacorp anything goes
Including having your characters tossed around like rag dolls by nearly microscopic arachnids? Maybe that "goes", but I don't think I'd want to play that game. How about if nobody can walk backwards, or people can see through all materials? Maybe that "goes" too, but I wouldn't want to play that either.
Simply having magic doesn't mean that I have no standards whatsoever for the game. Some things, for me, do not go. I imagine the same is true for almost everyone, since if it is not, there is no reason inherent to SR that they play SR. (Other reasons might include being friends with the developers or something.)
Simply having magic doesn't mean that I have no standards whatsoever for the game. Some things, for me, do not go. I imagine the same is true for almost everyone, since if it is not, there is no reason inherent to SR that they play SR. (Other reasons might include being friends with the developers or something.)
the girl in the gibson book had a nanite-constructed lattice built into her brain. the radio energy she emitted were not produced by any biological function, except to the extent that the machinery in her head was powered by biological functions.
christ, another "magic exists, therefore anything is possible" argument. give me a goddamn break.
christ, another "magic exists, therefore anything is possible" argument. give me a goddamn break.
| QUOTE (mmu1) | ||
That is nonsense. The water example is precisely what the "fusion" of magic and technology in a cyberzombie is NOT like. The oxygen and hydrogen might not have fused into a new element, but they've fused into a new stable molecule, that no longer has any of the properties of oxygen or hydrogen. Cyberzombies are like... I dunno, artificial elements from the very end of the periodic table, or better yet, antimatter - unstable, and gone the instant you stop applying energy to keep them in existence. |
I was going to search for a chemical that is unstable as a better example, but then I realized I'm too lazy.
Instead, I'll say this: Fusion doesn't work because they combine together to become the same exact thing. That isn't what is happening in this case either.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. - Arthur C. Clarke
"Magic" in SR isn't really magic. There is nothing supernatural about it. It is based on natural laws just as any other technology. It just happens to be that the natural laws that spawned mana based technology are not yet well understood.
One doesn't have to fuse mana technology with electronic or photonic technology any more than one has to fuse audio recording technology with radar technology to make radios work. All you need is a way to interface the two.
"Magic" in SR isn't really magic. There is nothing supernatural about it. It is based on natural laws just as any other technology. It just happens to be that the natural laws that spawned mana based technology are not yet well understood.
One doesn't have to fuse mana technology with electronic or photonic technology any more than one has to fuse audio recording technology with radar technology to make radios work. All you need is a way to interface the two.
I like the blurring of the line that comes with Technomancers. Where does magic begin and human development end? Is it possible that their brains emit radio waves, or did they evolve an interface with the astral that allows them to influence technology magically?
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| One doesn't have to fuse mana technology with electronic or photonic technology any more than one has to fuse audio recording technology with radar technology to make radios work. All you need is a way to interface the two. |
And how do you presume this is done?
| QUOTE (Nerbert) |
| I like the blurring of the line that comes with Technomancers. Where does magic begin and human development end? Is it possible that their brains emit radio waves, or did they evolve an interface with the astral that allows them to influence technology magically? |
Well, here is something I dug up regarding the brain and converting brain-wave patterns to signals.
Brainwaves!
Uh, yeah... That's how DNI works already. Note the line, "Hidenori Onishi is using a device that senses brain-wave patterns and converts them into signals used to operate electrical appliances".
Nothing to explain this force of will nonsense yet.
Nothing to explain this force of will nonsense yet.
| QUOTE (SL James @ Aug 20 2005, 10:27 PM) |
| Uh, yeah... That's how DNI works already. Note the line, "Hidenori Onishi is using a device that senses brain-wave patterns and converts them into signals used to operate electrical appliances". Nothing to explain this force of will nonsense yet. |
Well in another part of the article it does state "Nerve cells in the brain are constantly emitting a variety of electrical impulses, each of which has a distinctive wave-like pattern when monitored by an instrument called the electroencephalograph."
Now if a machine can read them, I do not think it is too far fetched to think that Technomancers are able to "project" certain impulses and receive certain impulses. If you web search some more, you can find articles discussing research done by both the U.S. and U.S.S.R back in the "cold war" that discuss tests on what the human brain can do. It is not too far fetched to assume that the Technomancers are individuals that can utilize more of their brain.
There are even people today (nutjobs or not) that can claim to control computers and other electronic devices with their minds
It even made it into X-Files. 
Yes, but has anyone even been found who can project those impulses more than a cm? m? km?
Because as far as I can tell, Technomancers can.
Because as far as I can tell, Technomancers can.
| QUOTE (Autarkis) |
| Now if a machine can read them, I do not think it is too far fetched to think that Technomancers are able to "project" certain impulses and receive certain impulses. |
EEG recordings are made with electrodes taped to the skin.
The range is zero. The resolution is also close to zero, as the skull and scalp are very effective low-pass spatial filters. The frequencies you measure are only go up to about 30-40Hz at maximum. Compare with the GHz frequencies used by modern mobile phones. Also, that's electric field changes, not EM radiation.
For land-based organisms, that makes the possibility of any useful communications from electrical fluctuations near-zero, much less one that manages to interact meaningfully with a wireless network system.
Unless, of course, it's magic.
The range is zero. The resolution is also close to zero, as the skull and scalp are very effective low-pass spatial filters. The frequencies you measure are only go up to about 30-40Hz at maximum. Compare with the GHz frequencies used by modern mobile phones. Also, that's electric field changes, not EM radiation.
For land-based organisms, that makes the possibility of any useful communications from electrical fluctuations near-zero, much less one that manages to interact meaningfully with a wireless network system.
Unless, of course, it's magic.
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