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Faenor
hello everyone. longtime reader, first time poster

I've been GMing a third ed shadowrun game for approx. 6 months now, and most of the characters are fairly dynamic; we have an Irish mage who uses her magic for forensic work; she used to do forensics for the Star. We have a private investigator with a contact for every situation who left the force to due him being scape goated for a scandal. We also have a japanese phys ad who attempts spiritual and martial perfection through conflict and peace (it's a long story).

And certainly, we of course have the cold-blooded Magician's Way adept who's idea of negotiation is sticking a gun barrel down someone's throat by the name of Dante (from Devil May Cry: the video game).

Essentially, Dante's player screwed up royally. while trying to find someone in a ten story walk up, he was ambushed by a gang to off him. He then proceeds to tell me that he unslings his MGL-12 grenade launcher and start putting rounds down the hallway. after a heated exchange, three of the five gangers are dead, and he's at one point away from a deadly wound. His Doc Wagon bracelet goes off, and he's picked up. Next thing he knows, he's under arrest on federal weapons charges with intent to kill. Multiple weapons charges. Because he has several assault rifles at home, along with several LAW rockets and security armor. I essentially said that he had to make a new character because his current character would be spending the next fifty years in a prison cell hooked up to a simsense rig through his brand new shiny datajack.

My question is: Was I too harsh on this player? If you had the same scenario, how would you have handled it? Or would you let the other characters make a run to try and bust him out (which I doubt they would do, the rest of the group was excited to get a level one weapon focus which they gave to the phys ad because he can attack spirits more effectively)

Thoughts? Ideas? Munitions?
fistandantilus4.0
my only question is, why would DocWagon turn in a paying customer? Was it obvious to everyone that he was the 'perp'? I mean, he is paying the man awful lot of nuyen.gif . And since he lived, that's good advertising. If they turn him in on the other hand, that's really bad advertising for all of their runner clients.
Faenor
My main thought would be that since he was taken to a hospital, they'd report the large ordinance. I'd also like to mention that this was a nicer part of town that he did this in. Plus, all the people in the apartment building fingered him as "that crazy bastard who started blowing the place to high hell!" (He took the Distinctive flaw)
Just as modern police procedure states that the hospital has to report any gunshot wounds, it made sense that that policy would be held onto in this era as well.
fistandantilus4.0
Then I'd say go with it on the grounds of the distinctive flaw. Doc Wagon (IIRC) is extraterritorial, and doesn't have to hand anyone over (although no reason that LS coulnd't stake the place out). But sounds like he was (very) reckless, and got what he deserved really.
ShadowDragon8685
Remember, however. DocWagon is a Corp, I'm not sure what they're rated, but I'd be damned surprised if they didn't have Extraterritoriality. And once he's on their soil, he's on their jurisdiction, and they don't have to tell the Star anything.


That said, anyone stupid enough to whip out a grenade launcher in a building gets what he gets.
toturi
It is not stupid if that is the only thing he can do. Anytime you do an ambush as a GM, you must know that you are going to kill a PC unless he is very good or very lucky. There is no such thing as a "challenging but survivable" ambush. Since the end result is still a "dead" PC, I think you accomplished what you set out to do.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Sep 7 2005, 12:12 AM)
Remember, however. DocWagon is a Corp, I'm not sure what they're rated, but I'd be damned surprised if they didn't have Extraterritoriality. And once he's on their soil, he's on their jurisdiction, and they don't have to tell the Star anything.


.

didn't I just say that?

I guess, like Tutori said (sorry, should I keep that lower case?), was your intention to take him out , or put him in an inescapable situation? Or did you have a way out for him, or was the grenade launcher way over the top as you had written? Could he have escaped it with a silenced pistol? Was it possible for him to do it without blowing the hell out of the place?
eidolon
QUOTE (toturi)
It is not stupid if that is the only thing he can do. Anytime you do an ambush as a GM, you must know that you are going to kill a PC unless he is very good or very lucky. There is no such thing as a "challenging but survivable" ambush. Since the end result is still a "dead" PC, I think you accomplished what you set out to do.

I don't follow you. Have you never heard of an ambush going badly for the ambushing party? Happens pretty often. Maybe not as often as an ambush going off well, but unforseen circumstances can completely change things.

When I design an "ambush", it's designed using whatever information the NPCs doing the ambushing have, not what information I have as GM.

Is an NPC going to know everything there is to know about a PC? Depends on things like who that NPC is, who that NPC knows, how well connected the NPC is, and a lot of other stuff.

It's perfectly reasonable that some random NPC pulls an ambush against someone, and totally gets waxed by the ambushee.
toturi
QUOTE (eidolon)
I don't follow you. Have you never heard of an ambush going badly for the ambushing party? Happens pretty often. Maybe not as often as an ambush going off well, but unforseen circumstances can completely change things.

When I design an "ambush", it's designed using whatever information the NPCs doing the ambushing have, not what information I have as GM.

Is an NPC going to know everything there is to know about a PC? Depends on things like who that NPC is, who that NPC knows, how well connected the NPC is, and a lot of other stuff.

It's perfectly reasonable that some random NPC pulls an ambush against someone, and totally gets waxed by the ambushee.

Heard of ambushes going wrong? Yes, those are called fairy tales. Things people like Quicksilver or Harlequin or Argent can pull off. Hell, even a seasoned merc like Matador bought it in a ambush (technically a sniper but there isn't much difference in terms of game mechanics).

Using the NPC rules in the books, Equal rated NPC adversaries (there's nothing to say there can only be 1 on 1) laying an ambush will take down any PC you would care to create. Unless that PC manages not to be caught in the ambush, he is effectively dead.

If a PC is not caught in an ambush, then it no longer is challenging (he can just walk away without springing the trap). But if he is caught in the ambush, he is likely to be dead. Hence my statement that there is no such thing as a "challenging but survivable ambush" unless you are a max Body troll and the enemy is using Light pistols or some such.
fistandantilus4.0
still waiting for Faenor to reply and clarify
Wintermancer
For my two cents, I don't think DocWagon would turn a client over the the authorities, no matter how many people fingered him. They would probably patch him up in that extraterritorial DocWagon facility, keep the authorities at bay by basically going, "Yeah, we know, we know... But hey, we have to provide the service he asked us for so, we'll let you know when he's on the streets again so you can pick him up--But you're not coming in here, sorry, but we can't let you violate our extraterritorial rights."

Then, when he's better, they'd let him go.

Give him a few days head start, to keep a paying client on the streets.

Then call up the star and tell them their fugitive is on the loose, and happy hunting.

Winter
fistandantilus4.0
that's what I was thinking . That's WM for filling that thought out a bit more.
Herald of Verjigorm
My first question is how did the Star get his home address to scour it for heavy munitions?

For the most part I agree with the "DocWagon will patch him up and tell the cops when he's fair game again" method. Just give him a "Hunted: Lone Star" flaw based on the degree of collateral damage. Low if it's just property damage, medium if there were some bystander injuries, high if there were critically injured bystanders (anything that requires hospitalized lifestyle to heal or can't heal, such as death).
nezumi
Totori, I didn't get that sense from reading surprise rules. In this case, the gangers would roll their reaction against a TN of 2, and the PC would roll against a TN of 4.

In this particular case the ambush might or might not be survivable. Presumably these gangers are, well, gangers. Armor no higher than 5/3, likely using Preds and shotguns. They likely don't have much in the way of cyber. Given that the PC is a combat monster, I'd give him more than a fair chance of surviving, especially since we know the guy is carrying GRENADE LAUNCHERS. I don't throw a lot of ambushes at my group, but I think they could survive them. The people who look dangerous have the reaction to back it up, the people who don't tend to pack lots of armor. Only an ambush with a group of foes of equal or greater skill would be a guaranteed kill.

As for this case... What rating was the zone? It has gangers, so I'd guess C? MAYBE B? Why didn't anyone call the cops on him before, when they saw him walking down the street with a grenade launcher?

I would guess there was a more than reasonable chance that someone saw him on the way from his car to the apartment building, and someone called the cops before the battle even started. If they saw gangers wandering around, they'd have been on their toes anyway, and seeing military hardware means he'll be spotted in no time and reported in.

You know the situation better than I do, but consider the following:
-Police were likely called BEFORE the gun battle. Drones are the first responders, and they get pictures. A few patrol cars would have approached later, but given the report, would have waited for more support.

-Either the guy left his vehicle there (in which case there's an orgy of evidence right there) or he had a long hike (which means cops would've been more ready for him - more pictures, more backup, and more likely to intercept him *BEFORE* docwagon. In this case, they'll likely shoot to kill. He has military hardware, after all.)

-If the cops got there before docwagon, you could simply say 'I was wrong. Remember when you got on that bus in Redmond? Someone called the cops on you. And you remember when I said it was a docwagon chopper that came and picked you up? It was Lone Star, and they sniped/manabolted your butt.'

-Now tie in pictures, video, a car, any left behind gear and casings, etc. plus what the cops already had. Any chance any of it would lead back to his apartment? If so, that's a stake-out right there. This guy is clearly a threat. Put a drone outside and watch his comings and goings. A $9k strato-9 drone is a cheap investment, and it'll tell the star where to find him next time he wanders out of the barrens.

As has been pointed out, doc wagon wouldn't turn him over. But you're certainly right that he's earned his fate.
mmu1
Just to elaborate on something nezumi touched on - did you actually let this guy walk around pretty much unhindered with a grenade launcher?

If so, then it's not entirely reasonable to expect him to know better than to use it in an apartment building, because he's already getting away with something that's generally only going to be possible in video games or action movies.

If he was as careless as you imply, he should have had Lone Star on his ass long before he got to fire the damn thing.
toturi
The guy is a Magician way adept. So unless he has a Increase Reaction spell or Increase Reflexes power, he is on par with the gangers. Also those TNs are before any modifiers are applied. Granted that the mods could go either way, but in an ambush situation, it is often the ambusher that stacks the mods, not the ambushee.
Dawnshadow
Magician's Way Adepts can have obscene reaction scores without going into ultra-high end campaigns. Just depends on the build.

Quite possible to have double digit reaction.

3 pp: increase reflexes 2
quick, int at 6.

Reaction 10, right there. Still leaves 3 power points for magic power, or 2 and 1 for other adept powers. Geas as required.
Ryu
I think that guy PROVED his ability to survive said encounter.

The MGL-6 looks close enough to a heavy pistol to pass as one for a casual observer. Until the first shot at least.

And if DocWagon does not protect its customers from LoneStar that should be said clearly at the beginning of the game. He would have been better of trying to flee from the star rather than beeing captured by helpers he pays the bill for.

Edit: Can´t write.
Mugzug
Did I miss something?

How does Doc Wagon have extra-territoriality? I am pretty sure only AAA corporations holding a seat on the corporate court could have that...
Lindt
No Mug, a defining factor of a AA is its ability to have extra-territoriality.
Mugzug
Ah well with that cleared up...

Lonestar still could have had the runner. Even with extra territoriality they still have to obey laws while inside the Greater Seattle Area. With grenades going off, in a reasonably high secure area I am sure a whole slew of panic button alarms would go off.

The star would respond pretty fast (even if you are flexible on what it says in New Seattle on response times). Doc Wagon might be there first, but they may not. Even if they do arrive first, Lone Star officers may not be far beyond them. All they'd have to do is arrive before the 'victim' is physically in the Doc Wagon ambulance and the LS has them.

Even then in a high security area like that they'd be able to analyze security cameras, passing traffic drones, etc, and figure out who it is. Failing that DNA evidence, hair samples, and a forensic team would find something to match it to the 'perp.'

The trick to avoiding the Star in a place like a reasonably secure area is silencers, or just not getting into trouble in the first place.


Now how do you take a guy in prison and put him out into the real world once more?

Lone Star has a 'shadow division’, which might recruit, out of prison with some psychotropic or blackmail inducement to ensure loyalty. They also offer experiments in jail and if you survive, you get time off.

Another option is that the runner is forced to be a Street Snitch. A cortex bomb, a virus which needs specially tailored antibiotics on a periodic basis, or even psychotropic conditioning are all possibilities.

My favorite would be giving him Judas psychotropic conditioning and releasing him from jail (without telling the player about the Judas part). To make it seem realistic the star might engineer a prison break, or offer the runner an out through an experiment if they survive. The experiment could just be a 'water pill' that would be harmless, but keep your runner guessing. A side benefit would be that he doesn't guess about the reality of the situation. Meanwhile he leaves behind clues to Lone Star without even realizing it thanks to the Judas conditioning.

Soon he would find all of his contacts mysteriously disappearing. Johnsons would be suspicious of him double crossing them, and whenever they do a run the Star doesn't want... Well, they intervene.
mmu1
QUOTE (Ryu)
The MGL-6 looks close enough to a heavy pistol to pass as one for a casual observer. Until the first shot at least.

He said MGL-12, not 6. Which is about as concealable as a standard assault rifle. (3)
nezumi
I seem to recollect reading somewhere that DocWagon extraterritoriality extends something like twelve feet in every direction from their vehicle while responding to a call (but can't trump the extraterritoriality of the place they're going. So if the apartment building is under the ownership of say Ares, they're obliged to let KE get first dibs on him.) Since Seattle doesn't have extraterritoriality, if LS is all that's after you, once you're on the DW chopper, you're safe.

But I could be misremembering.
Shadow
It seems a little railroad'ish. But its believable. Theres always a way out, you could have the star seize all his stuff, cars, house etc. Then have a lawyer get him off on a technicality. Give him a 2 point police record flaw and let him back in the game.

I admit not everyone is as savvy as some of us, but lighting up with a GL in a enclosed space is pretty dumb. Let it be a learning experience for the guy and move on.
Talia Invierno
Also, just because extraterritoriality exists, it's not always in the interest of the corporation in question to enforce it at any and all costs. In the most extreme cases, DocWagon may well be willing to negotiate a transfer with Lone Star, not least because they not only don't compete, but in many cases are complementary services.

In the here-and-now we see approximate equivalents in the contexts of deliberately negotiated extradition and/or prosecution independent of what immunities might otherwise have existed. (International law is a gray area. Don't count on it to save your hide. And extrapolation of international law is what we're looking at here.)
Faenor
Sorry for the delay in postings; I'm at work as we speak.

First of all, to address the Star finding his home address; He has a SIN, he's actually a registered businessman who does "supernatural troubleshooting".

And my goal was to create a situation where he would have to surrender as opposed to his "I never give up" mentality, and it would create a case where you have to go outside your comfortable boundaries. Also, it's a chance for the othe characters to save him and bring about more of a group interaction. He also had Imp Invisibility as a spell; he could have just waited them out as well but insisted on the fireworks.
Trax
Yeah, that's pretty stupid.
interchange
Yeah, if he's SINed, he's SOL even if it wasn't DocWagon who turned him in.
Fox1
QUOTE (Faenor @ Sep 7 2005, 03:32 PM)
And my goal was to create a situation where he would have to surrender as opposed to his "I never give up" mentality, and it would create a case where you have to go outside your comfortable boundaries.

I'm not really taking sides on something I know little of, but I found that statement interesting in what it implies.

The player in this example may not be anyone's idea of perfect, but I imagine that few players want their GM to force them "to go outside your comfortable boundaries".

Also the concept of a GM creating a situation where the player must abandon his character concept in favor of a GM decreeded outcome ("surrender" instead of "I never give up) is another flag indicating that the GM and the player are seeking completely different kinds of games.

I've come to believe that most "Things went down like this, I did do the right thing.. right?" posts to boards like this are not really a question of an individual GM's call. Rather they are a more of indication that the gaming style of the GM and the player(s) either don't match, or that expectations of the games style were never agreed upon.

People tend to play for fun, and rare is the case when a GM disagreeing with a player about what fun *is* ends up well for both sides...
Mugzug
Actually this is a good chance for him to hire a lawyer. He could easily argue that he had no 'intent to kill' but was using his right to self defense. Then the lawyer could argue if that is why the warrant was issued, then it was an 'illegal search and siezure and the weapons charges would have to be dropped. He'd be left with a weapons charge for the grenade launcher...

But a simple plea bargain to pay a fine and do community service (see a shadowrun there?) would easily get him off of that and make the prosecutor seem like they got something. Also they may or may not give him the 'evidence' back since it was illegally siezed. A simple 'fine' (bribe) to get them back may be in order.

Of course to pay off all of these fines, and bribes may require a loan from Tony the Loanshark.

Yeah I took a class on Law, sue me. wink.gif
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (Mugzug)
Yeah I took a class on Law, sue me. wink.gif

Except that that's exactly what you want. I'll stick with my standard .357 lawyer response system.
Paul
I think minus the other three players ending up dead you did okay. If I were in your shoes, I'd have cobbled up a reason to either seperate them from this ass whomping, or a shoe string scifi budget way of keeping them alive.

My only question is have you tried talking with this player? I am assuming you have, and that it failed to get the results you and the other players were looking for. Am I right?
Faenor
well, I think what I'm going to do is have the player be put in jail for a couple weeks, and since he took the Distinctive Flaw, have all his contacts remember that. Also, a good lawyer (anyone have an idea of what they would cost in SR?) will manage to get this plead down, and cost most, if not all, of his resources. Let the character walk away? Or do you think that I can salvage this?

to Paul:
fortunately, the other player characters were investigating on the other side of town. It was the phys ad who got the call stating "Guys. I'm in trouble. I'm under arrest. And they're saying I'm gonna have a new roomie/ wife troll named Spire who's only four foot standing, but six foot three on his back. Should I be worried?"

All joking aside, I think I'm just gonna take ALL of the character's weapons and have the Star harrass him a VERY long time. That way, he gets to keep his character, and I still get to punish him for the sheer audacity of using a military weapon in a crowded apartment complex.

Regardless, I thank everyone for the input. And I honestly didn't mean to turn this into a debate for internation extradition! smile.gif
Mugzug
Don't forget community service and debt! So many evil plothooks in there. If you make it hurt enough, he might even develop a mental flaw for fear of using weapons in public! Or maybe before his lawyer pleads it down Lonestar psychotropically induces a fear of such things into him.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Faenor)
Sorry for the delay in postings; I'm at work as we speak.

First of all, to address the Star finding his home address; He has a SIN, he's actually a registered businessman who does "supernatural troubleshooting".


If he is a registered businessman then he should have been able to get permits for most of his weapons. For some strange reason you can't get a permit for a MGL-12, but sincehe shot in self-defense he may only be charged with possession, which carries a fin of 10,000 and imprisonment of 6 months. Since it is his first offence and he has a SIN, he would probably recieve the fine.


QUOTE
Sorry for the delay in postings; I'm at work as we speak.

First of all, to address the Star finding his home address; He has a SIN, he's actually a registered businessman who does "supernatural troubleshooting".

And my goal was to create a situation where he would have to surrender as opposed to his "I never give up" mentality, and it would create a case where you have to go outside your comfortable boundaries. Also, it's a chance for the othe characters to save him and bring about more of a group interaction. He also had Imp Invisibility as a spell; he could have just waited them out as well but insisted on the fireworks.


This person created a character based on Dante and you thought he would surrender instead of whipping out his grenade launcher??!!!??!!!??!!???!!!???!!!

You haven't played Devil May Cry, have you? This is a case where allowing the character was a mistake in the first place. Did you explain the concept of running in the shadows to be player before hand? Did you tell him that blowing stuff up has consequences?

As for a lawyer, some of the more dishonest attorneys might do pro bono work in exchange for a little shadowrun to help out with a high-paying client. In this case, the more dishonest the lawyer is the better.

I would suggest crosses between Alan Shore and Denny Crane from Boston Legal and Krass and Drassel from the Shadowrun Quotefiile.
tisoz
Another idea is upon his regaining consciousness, DocWagon lets him know Lonestar is waiting for someone fitting his description. Then showing him some brochures/ads for plastic surgery and hinting something could probably be worked out. Definitely makes money for DocWagon by the extra services and keeping a paying customer on the streets.

Sounds like you skipped this option though and had him wake up in a jail cell.
Fox1
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
This person created a character based on Dante and you thought he would surrender instead of whipping out his grenade launcher??!!!??!!!??!!???!!!???!!!


The biggest mistake was made before the run even started, which is rather typical.

Much better to disallow a troublesome character concept up front than to attempt to beat that character into line by adventure setbacks.

fistandantilus4.0
thanks for responding Faenor. I think I agree that since the character had a SIN, it wouldn't matter if DOC Wagon handed him over or not. THere's so much surveillance in '64 that the'd find him for sure. I think firing an unregistered GRENADE LAUNCHER in an APARTMENT is certainly grounds for a warrant to lookf for more. So give him some jail time, then slap him with the POLICE RECORD flaw.
weblife
The player should have been informed by the GM that DW might turn him in to LS.

With Imp. Invisibility he could have limped outta there with noone the wiser.

Also, even if DW took the player into their care, you should have left him an option on the way.

You, the GM, ambushed the player, which he survives, and then puts him into a situation where you choose the only outcome. - That right there is railroading.

The player was due some additional info on what might happen if he let DW take him away. You didn't supply it.

As for whether the character should even exist, thats a whole other beef. The way you took this player out would have been frustrating to him.
fistandantilus4.0
I'm sorry, but I think the player should have thought about some of the consequences of firing a grenade launcher in a building. It is called Shadowrun.

"Quiet in, quiet out." "Like a cat one might say."
- The Mayfairs - Hudson Hawk
Ed Simons
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
I think I agree that since the character had a SIN, it wouldn't matter if DOC Wagon handed him over or not. THere's so much surveillance in '64 that the'd find him for sure.

Are you saying he'd be automatically caught merely because he had a SIN? If that's the case then runners would be caught after any crime they committed, since they'd at least need a fake SIN to get by in the world of SR.

The big thing that's going to trip him up is the Distinctive Looks.
nezumi
See, this is the difference between a real SIN and a fake SIN. Namely, the fake SIN is FAKE. It has no real information on it! Hence, if they match you up to the fake SIN, it leads to a fake address of a fake person and his fake children. This is also why shadowrunners, as a general rule of thumb, don't have SINs.

Assuming this guy registered his house and weapons on his real SIN, he should expect a knock on his door in about a week (or less). After all, he has the distinctive feature flaw, a legitimate SIN, an unusual weapon and the cops have video footage. It's not hard to put two and two together.
Ed Simons
QUOTE (nezumi)
See, this is the difference between a real SIN and a fake SIN.  Namely, the fake SIN is FAKE.  It has no real information on it!


That’s not the point. If it’s this easy to determine the average Shadowrunner’s SIN, it doesn’t matter if it’s real or fake, the Runner would have to discard that SIN after each crime they committed. (Hope you correctly guess which SIN they ID’d.)

So what if the fake SIN doesn’t lead to a real address, the next time you used that fake SIN to purchase anything legally (like most lifestyle purchases), Lone Star would be informed.

QUOTE (nezumi)
Assuming this guy registered his house and weapons on his real SIN, he should expect a knock on his door in about a week (or less).


Having a house and weapons registered on a fake SIN doesn’t solve this problem.

QUOTE (nezumi)
After all, he has the distinctive feature flaw,


This is my point. Distinctive Looks is going to screw him no matter if he has a real SIN, a fake SIN, or no SIN at all.

Video footage of the runners will probably occur on most runs. If that video footage can absolutely identify the average runner and lead back to their SIN, then Shadowrunning would be impossible.

Even video footage of a Runner with Distinctive Looks wouldn’t absolutely ID the runner, but with only a handful of possible suspects, it would be fairly trivial to find out his ID.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (Ed Simons)
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
I think I agree that since the character had a SIN, it wouldn't matter if DOC Wagon handed him over or not. THere's so much surveillance in '64 that the'd find him for sure.

Are you saying he'd be automatically caught merely because he had a SIN? If that's the case then runners would be caught after any crime they committed, since they'd at least need a fake SIN to get by in the world of SR.

The big thing that's going to trip him up is the Distinctive Looks.

Look over Rigger 3, and Sprawl sites. Especially since (as I understand it) this took place in a better place of town. Those tend to have good surveillance. Tie that in to distinctive style, and he's easier to spot. Add in a full and legal SIN makes him very easy to track down if they got a picture of him (facial structure recognition software and all). Plus, someone would have seen something, and from what I gathered, he wasn't in the kind of neighborhood people keep quite about such things.

Remember that a SIN carries a lot of information on you, linking up to even credit information, which can link up to records of what you buy, which probably ends up somewhere in the 'system' like the MIFD. WHich can correlate that data to send you specific spam and coupons , like you get from Albertson's if you have a 'savers' card, but on your telecom instead (or headware!). And with all that information at their fingertips, they could very likely work up a nice psych profile on you as well. Bed wetter? With enough digging, they could probably find out. a SIN is a key to all of that.

A fake SIN on the other hand is unlikely to even have such things as fingerprints, since having those in a system, and a number and a face to match to can be a bad idea. Plus planting all of that information is not an easy task. Check out SS on all that, and the different levels of fake ID's.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Ed Simons @ Sep 10 2005, 09:06 PM)
Having a house and weapons registered on a fake SIN doesn’t solve this problem.

No, but having wageslave Bob's house registered on a fake SIN and taking your mail out of his box ever morning does. Actually, one could make a large sum of money opperating addresses for use with fake SINs.

QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
I'm sorry, but I think the player should have thought about some of the consequences of firing a grenade launcher in a building. It is called Shadowrun.

"Quiet in, quiet out." "Like a cat one might say."
  - The Mayfairs - Hudson Hawk


He should have know. His character choice would suggest that he didn't. Dante shoots things with grenade launchers very often and no one notices. Why should this Dante act any differently?

I'm going to assume that this was a new player. The GM should have explained the concept of Shadowrun to the player and suggested a less flamboyantly violent character.
Faenor
Okay, I'll give my interpretation of what happened as a GM. I really did not attempt to railroad the character. And he is a veteran as well; he's been playing for over seven years.

Essentially, the character was checking on one of his contacts because a rival runner team pulled off a heist and he was hired to bring back the object (a sculpture made of orichalcum; it was in a corp's "private" art collection so thats why he was using a runner team) and the head of the perpetrators. Well, the group did not make very quiet inquiries except for our mage who specifically told her lv 2 Talismonger that she was looking for word on the street about anyone who might know about it and to keep her ears open. The others went so far as asking EVERYONE they knew about it; including several fixers. So the opposing runner team eventually heard through the grapevine. And they also heard Dante's name get dropped a few times. And through the grapevine, they also heard of who Dante hangs out with (his contacts). So when one contact ended up having a very distinctive watch sent to him by courier with a note stating "back off or he gets it. In twenty four hours we'll let him go"

So Dante goes to his decker contact who lived in an A-class neighborhood (while under surveillance, they knew where he lived but were attempting to avoid bloodshed; that's why they didn't storm his house). One of the runners follows him and says Dante's here. he ends up staying for the next twelve hours or so while the decker does some searches.
Meanwhile, the runner team hires some gangers, gives them a sub each and a ski mask, and goes to talk to Dante. Due to his amplified hearing and making an awesome perception check, I let him hear the group as they're coming up the stairs and loading magazines into the subs. They knock, whispering at the door that they're here to tell him to just chill out for the next day or so and his doctor friend will be returned unharmed (this was said by the opposing runner, or one of them anyways), and he tells his contact not to answer. He waits, and knocks back. The gangers, not being the smartest in the world, one of them looks in the peephole. Dante shoots the guy right through it. Needless to say, all hell breaks loose after that. The other gangers spray the door with subs; they don't hit a single thing except ruin the poor decker's apartment and essentially blow the door off the hinges. They're retreating by using suppressive fire, and that's when Dante states that he whips out his grenade launcher and puts a few rounds down the hallway. Everyone in the building is hitting their PANICbuttons. When Dante jumps around the corner to get a good shot off, the team leader puts a six round burst into his chest from a Supermach 100, and drops him to a serious. the other gangers get lucky with their bursts and score two or three light wounds on him. Even the decker takes a moderate wound from a stray round. Eventually, all is quiet. DocWagon arrives first as he broke his ID band (and in Neo Anarchist's guide to Real Life it states that an HTR team is sent if that happens). So they come in through the roof in an Osprey II, and the team finds him in the decker's apartment. He shows his bracelet, and verify his ID. As they're taking him along, he asks what about the decker. They state that she is not a contracted member, and they have determined her injuries to not be life-threatening. He states that he will pay for her. In a general niceness, the guy says he'll pro-rate one month's service, and he'll incur the HRT costs. he says that's fine. They also let him know that he'll need to leave the grenade lanucher "that you must have found" (added with a wink) here because they won't allow it due to it's nature. He specifically states that it's his, and he's not leaving it. The medic on the HTR says to get him on board as he's losing a lot of blood. So they get him on regardless with the decker.
I roll on a d6 to see if a DocWagon or a public hospital is closest. The result says that it's a public hospital. So they take him there with the decker, and inform the staff that he is being brought in for gunshot wounds. They strip him to begin the bullet extractions, and that's when they find the grenade launcher, and the VERY illegal ammo (two pistols filled with APDS ammo and him having no security permit). The don't know about the ammo, but they do call LoneStar about the grenade launcher. Lonestar puts two and two together and sees him on the surveillance footage as everyone in the building hit their panic buttons. And that's when I said that he'd have to make a new character.
I looked up the legality on grenade launchers, and they're classified as military weapons. I figured that the ATF (or equivalent version for the UCAS) would get involved immediately due to this. And they're also going to serve a federal search warrant on his house as well.
So what I've decided on is that they're going to take away all his toys, fine him an obscene amount of money, and any money left over is going to be spent paying a lawyer to keep him out of prison. And the lawyer is going to "let him owe a few favors to keep him out of the system entirely". And that is where we ended at three o'clock in the morning on a sunday night.
Clyde
For what it's worth, I think this "Dante" guy is getting off light. He used a grenade launcher in an "A" zone. Definitely a party foul. The BBB suggests that use of a military weapon carries an 8 year jail term and a 10,000 nuyen.gif fine. If the cops want to let him out early, there ought to be something they get out of it. You can turn this into a story opportunity if you want - Dante gets a new and very demanding contact from the ATF or Lone Star. Someone who wants all kinds of illegal wiretapping, forced confessions, you name it. After all, who do you call when the cops blackmail you? You should probably try to get one or two good shadowruns out of him and then give him a way out for the future. That'll reinforce the lesson without totally derailing the character or the campaign.

As for the whole "never surrender" deal - that's a tougher issue. Is it a player attitude or a character attitude? If it's just Dante that thinks that way, then you're free to open fire in game should you choose. Players can be surprisingly resourceful. If it's the player who figures he should never surrender, maybe because he wants to always win, then you have worse problems. You might want to speak to him individually, preferably in a non-confrontational fashion.

Another option is to foreshadow the problem. Have a Johnson hire the runners for a job where he admits up front that maybe this one just can't be done. He won't geek them if they fail, won't even say anything bad about their rep. This is just nearly impossible and for whatever reason he has to try. This way, the player or the character can confront his issue head on and in a non-judgmental fashion. By warning the player ahead of time, they can get to a place where they can emotionally handle whatever happens. If there's a failure it's because the job was too hard, not because the player didn't "win."
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (Faenor)
Okay, I'll give my interpretation of what happened as a GM. I really did not attempt to railroad the character. And he is a veteran as well; he's been playing for over seven years.


QUOTE (hyzmarca)
I'm going to assume that this was a new player. The GM should have explained the concept of Shadowrun to the player and suggested a less flamboyantly violent character
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Faenor)
Okay, I'll give my interpretation of what happened as a GM. I really did not attempt to railroad the character. And he is a veteran as well; he's been playing for over seven years.

I apologize for the misinterpretation. However, from your account I must say that you did make one unforgivable mistake. You did not beat the player about the head with a BBB untill he sustained deadly stun.

Yeah, I'll agree with Clyde here. If he was RPing a very stupid character he did so very well and you should reward him with some karma and all of the legal consequences such a stupid character should face. If he was trying to "win" then he really fraged up.
fistandantilus4.0
actually, if he's still playing 3rd edition, that's ok too, cause then his poor paper back book is gonna fall apart like mine has done (after hitting a layer with it incidentally). Now if it was 4th ed hard back......
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