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calypso
So, I like the idea of a Troll Hacker. But, I need some help from people that have grokked the rules better than I. Since he isn't even a coherent character yet, if you just throw out suggestions, that would help.

For instance, things I have so far:

Cracking and Electronics groups at 4? Or buy them individually, making it cost more but allowing me to get a couple of them to 5?

What weapon to use? I considered a retractable spur, but there really is no advantage to that over, say, a katana.

I like the idea of skillwires for the active skills that make a good runner but I can't afford to get (stealth, pistols, piloting, etc). What do you need for skillwires, just an internal commlink?

Codeslinger (exploit), Codeblock (track), Mild Addiction (hotsim)

Minimum body/strength for a troll, or put a couple points into each?

Wired Reflexes? 1 or 2?

So many questions...

Thanks,
Calypso
Wasabi
I made one that used Wired Reflexes 2 so I could use AR as fast as VR albeit without the +2 Die bonus.

For weapon, use drones. You're already a hacker. For a defensive all-around skill Gymnastics is good, as is a Parrying specialization in a weapon skill if you are being defensive in HTH.

Skill wires are good, but the skills cost an exhorbiant amount to be capped as low as they are. I consider skillwires a great expansion for *existing* shadowrunners and rarely include it in my starting buildouts.

Codeslinger (Exploit) is good, as is Codeslinger (Stealth). [the program, not the skillgroup!]
Also good is buying your skills that are in the Cracking group individually with Hacking spiked at 6 or 7 if you can stomach the extra BP for Aptitude and the double-cost 7th point.
Specializing in Login action is my favorite. That way you brute your way into a system much less chance of getting discovered.

Get a Fixer thats in the Matrix at a trustworthy level. You'll need somewhere to sell the paydata, chummer and if you're good it may be a frequent thing.

Lastly, I usually specialize my Etiquette in Matrix since as a Hacker I'm the only one asking questions in chatrooms, data havens, etc.
FrankTrollman
I'm assuming that you intend to play this character for a long time.

As per the standard rules, a Troll is nearly as good a Hacker with a Logic of 1 as he is with a Logic of 4, so don't sweat the Logic. On the other hand, buying up your body later is very expensive, while buying it up at chargen is very cheap. You should have a body of 9 even if you are a hacker. It's only 40 points, and in the long run will save you 90 Karma. Since many things can be purchased later on for Karma = Build Points, you'll want to do that instead. That means that you'll begin play with no Specializations at all, and buy them at about 2 per game session from now on until you have one for every skill you have.

Despite some confusing wording, you actually can buy up your skill groups while individual skills in them have specializations (what you can't do is buy a specialization that applies to an entire skill group, something which the main book reminds you of like 12 times). A skill group is defined as having all the skills in the group at the same level, period, specializations or natural aptitudes on individual skills are fine. This means that you never ever want to break up any skill group. Ever.

So you'll start with Electronics and Cracking of 4. You'll take Perception or Gunnery of 6. Fight primarily with Drones, as Wasabi noted. This can get really ugly if you have a good Gunnery Skill.

None of your starting attributes need to be that good, except Body of course. But your Programs do. You can't have a Commlink with more than Response 5 at character start, which means that none of your initial programs can be better than 5. So your programs will be five. This means that on chargen you'll be rolling 11 dice on matrix actions (5 program 4 Hacking, 2 Hot Stim). That's decent enough, and after just one adventure you'll have +2 dice on your favorite Hacking and Electronic Warfare tests.

-Frank
Wasabi
With a successful use of a Reality Filter the Response goes up by 1 so a starting character can indeed have effective programs at 6. Once the response goes up the full 6 system rating can also be used which means the reality filter is essentially loaded for free minus the chance an Analyze utility running on the Node discovers you while you tarry in loading the darn thing.
blakkie
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Sep 16 2005, 11:02 AM)
Despite some confusing wording, you actually can buy up your skill groups while individual skills in them have specializations (what you can't do is buy a specialization that applies to an entire skill group, something which the main book reminds you of like 12 times). A skill group is defined as having all the skills in the group at the same level, period, specializations or natural aptitudes on individual skills are fine. This means that you never ever want to break up any skill group. Ever.

As a public service announcement, to thwart Frank's attempts at bullshit confusion, again, this isn't actually the case at all. indifferent.gif
calypso
I didn't even think about using drones... let's see... that requires a Control Rig... and... what else? Do I need to buy better software for the drones? How many drones would be good?

Calypso
blakkie
QUOTE (calypso @ Sep 16 2005, 11:51 AM)
I didn't even think about using drones... let's see... that requires a Control Rig... and... what else?  Do I need to buy better software for the drones?  How many drones would be good?

Calypso

A Control Rig is not required, though there is a benefit to having one. There is only one level of Control Rig, they are fairly cheap, and essense friendly.
calypso
Also, just because you can't buy a Response 6 commlink, does that mean you can't build your own Response chip at rating 6?
warrior_allanon
yeah, thats something i've been looking at.

the Orc hacker archtype has fives straight accross the board on his comlink stats, how did this happen, especially since the commlink he has is a puny little resonse one or two

i would really like to know cause i'm building a hacker as well

Shadow_Prophet
QUOTE (warrior_allanon)
yeah, thats something i've been looking at.

the Orc hacker archtype has fives straight accross the board on his comlink stats, how did this happen, especially since the commlink he has is a puny little resonse one or two

i would really like to know cause i'm building a hacker as well

PG 240. Theres a table in the lower right hand corner detailing the time it takes to build such things and the cost and avalability of purchasing them
warrior_allanon
thank you very much i knew there had to be something that gave that ability.....to bad your limited to a 12 availability

Shadow_Prophet
QUOTE (warrior_allanon)
thank you very much i knew there had to be something that gave that ability.....to bad your limited to a 12 availability

heh well i'm fine with the availability as is. Just as long as they don't put a flamethrower in with a higher avail than a anti tank guided missile...god I still haven't heard the end of that from my best friend about sr3.
calypso
What about my question about building a commlink Response Chip at rating 6, during character creation? Is that allowed, or is it also limited by availability, despite making it yourself?
hyb
It is still limited by Avail.
Nikoli
It's limited by availability.
Remember, Firewall isn't limited by system or response, so get it at 6 and for your drones as well (though at 3k a pop, it ain't cheap)
calypso
Cool, thanks.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Nikoli)
(though at 3k a pop, it ain't cheap)

..your Hacker pays for the software he's using? wink.gif
Nikoli
Also, get an agent or 2 at rating 4 (max avail)
Once in game, crack and copy your software (the needed stuff) into them and have them just chill until you need them. They make great assests in the matrix, as reflected by the hefty price tag.
One can handle the party comm spoofing, the other can handle fighting Blackhammer loaded IC (Blackhammer is useless against Agents, especially Smith).
They are highly intelligent at that rating and as good as many hackers are likely to be. Their one failing is that I don't think you can use edge to boost them (similair to Skill wires).
Supercilious
So, Blakkie, are you the Anti-Frank?
calypso
QUOTE (Nikoli)
Also, get an agent or 2 at rating 4 (max avail)
Once in game, crack and copy your software (the needed stuff) into them and have them just chill until you need them. They make great assests in the matrix, as reflected by the hefty price tag.
One can handle the party comm spoofing, the other can handle fighting Blackhammer loaded IC (Blackhammer is useless against Agents, especially Smith).
They are highly intelligent at that rating and as good as many hackers are likely to be. Their one failing is that I don't think you can use edge to boost them (similair to Skill wires).

Along that same line, I was thinking about buying/coding a Blackhammer IC for my commlink. To smack and track people trying to hack me. And since they can share your software by default (no pirating needed), load it up with copies of my level 5 programs.

Calypso
Nikoli
Also good.
But give it Attack and Armor as well.
If it get's fooled into going after an Agent, Blackhammer is a useful as a cotton ball.
Shadow_Prophet
QUOTE (Supercilious)
So, Blakkie, are you the Anti-Frank?

He's posting blatently false information about specializations and skill groups. Specificaly states in the rules that specializations can not be used with skill groups. Nor can skill groups have specializations themselves.

i don't blame blakie for pointing out that frank's completely misinformed there...
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
Specificaly states in the rules that specializations can not be used with skill groups.


And that means precisely dick when we are talking about taking specializations of skills that are in skill groups.

You have a skill group any time all of your skills in the skill group have the same rating. Any time. Even if they weren't in a skill group previously. Modifiers that are not from ratings do not keep your skill group from coalescing. You are no more prevented from raising the skill group by having a specialization on your infiltration than having Enhanced Articulation does. Contingent bonuses to skills do not change the base rating, and therefore do not break up the skill group.

Similarly, having Aptitude in Infiltration does not keep you from raising your Steal group up to six and then raising your Infiltration to 7.

-Frank
blakkie
QUOTE (Supercilious)
So, Blakkie, are you the Anti-Frank?

I would hope that there are many anti-Franks out there, fighting the stupid. smile.gif I happen to be one of the more consistantly vocal, but you'll notice that the 3 links i gave are refutes posted by others.
blakkie
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
QUOTE
Specificaly states in the rules that specializations can not be used with skill groups.


And that means precisely dick when we are talking about taking specializations of skills that are in skill groups.

It does when it is in the context of raising Skill Groups, now shoo you.
Wasabi
QUOTE (Nikoli)
Also, get an agent or 2 at rating 4 (max avail)
Once in game, crack and copy your software (the needed stuff) into them

Agents, like Firewalls, are also programs and able to be Duped/Pirated/Cracked. They just aren't from the Common or Hacking categories.
Shadow_Prophet
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
QUOTE
Specificaly states in the rules that specializations can not be used with skill groups.


And that means precisely dick when we are talking about taking specializations of skills that are in skill groups.

You have a skill group any time all of your skills in the skill group have the same rating. Any time. Even if they weren't in a skill group previously. Modifiers that are not from ratings do not keep your skill group from coalescing. You are no more prevented from raising the skill group by having a specialization on your infiltration than having Enhanced Articulation does. Contingent bonuses to skills do not change the base rating, and therefore do not break up the skill group.

Similarly, having Aptitude in Infiltration does not keep you from raising your Steal group up to six and then raising your Infiltration to 7.

-Frank

None of your statements there are wholely true. Actualy I'm going to email fanpro today about this to see if we can get a official clarification on skillgroups. As the rules stand though...

QUOTE

But if you look at it she's not buying specilizations to begin with Frank AND she purchased it at chargen. So she already had the group, the split it up because she needed something boosted and didn't have the time to wait. And then she raised the others and resealed the group. Theres no specializations involved there. And while not exactly following my thoughts thats decently close. A group is a group, a skill is a skill.

Lets piece together all we know about skill groups, skills and specializations

pg 264 tells us this...

QUOTE 
A character
may only know one specialization per skill, and specializations
may not be applied to skill groups.




pg 264 tells us this...

QUOTE 
If a character improves any skill in a skill
group individually instead of improving the group, the remaining
skills are treated as individual skills with individual
levels from that point—in other words, the skill group no longer
exists.




pg 106 tells us this...

QUOTE 
Any time a character uses a skill that he purchased
through a skill group, the skill group rating is used instead. Skill
groups are identical in function in all ways to individual skills
purchased singularly, and a character with a skill group containing
a skill at rating 3 is just as good as another character with
that skill alone rated at 3. You cannot use specializations with
skill groups.




So lets look at the sections I have highlighted.

Specializations may not be applied to skill groups. Ok thats prety simple yes?

Second part if you iprove any skill individualy the skill group ceases to exist. Seem's simple to me.

Third part, is you can't use specializations with skill groups. Thats simple enough.

Ok so what does all that mean together. Well you can't specialize in a group. And specilizing in a specific skill is well, improving a specific skill which would break up the skill group. And you can't use specializations with skill groups.

So anylyzing the rules there Frank. You're wrong. You can not use specializations in conjunction with skill groups. Improving any one skill in a skill group does infact break up a skill group as well. Basicaly your example of not specializing firearms skill group but specializing with longarms doesn't hold up with the rules.



Oh and for the record. I never said you couldn't raise your stealth group to 6 and then infiltration to 7. I've always said thats possible. Once you touch infiltration, you no longer have a stealth skill group and all the skills under the stealth skill group are at rating 6, save for infiltration which you just raised.

So if you have a skill group, and we'll assume that you're right (not that I think you are but to disprove your own point) and can give a skill in it a specialization without breaking it up, you would NOT be able to use that specialization as you have a skill group. and you can not use specializations with skill groups. According atleast to the rules as writen currently.

I am however going to email them like blakkie did concerning recoil on this subject and I will post my results here so that we can once and for all put a end to this debate.
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