Pheh. The canon stats for deities are less killable than the stats for Great Dragons.

This is largely due to the fact that if you're fighting a DnD deity, he'll automatically go first (Divine Initiative Salient Divine Ability), and automatically kill you, and all of your freinds (Life and Death Salient Divine Ability). About the only way to survive that is to be a deity yourself, and there's only one canon way to do that: the Dragon Ascendant PrC.

Thanks mfb. Sometimes you just make my night.

As it stands in SR3 he gets retconned for every game every time the PCs earn another 10 karma. Of course having an NPC that is the bleeding edge for 40 years is going to lead to retconning.

It seems very likely that Unwired is going to add some more top end, even just through depth. That is just what supplement books do. There isn't actually a RAW top end to the Response for a node, there is just a top end for Commlinks and for general unstatted devices. Having a kick ass, non-portable node to run from would give you an edge all by itself.

Bite your tongue! A friend of my has an original D & D, the one with the Cthulhu and Melnibonean mythos. He still brings it to every 3rd Edition game. Obviously the numbers for the stats don't make any sense anymore, maybe never did I don't recall. But it is like having a pocket version of Tobin's Spirit Guide to leaf through and pick out the god or goddess you are going to offer up the still beating heart of you enemies to.

Oh, you are talking about the 3e one? I just took WotC as being mistakenly put in for TSR, but now I see that is where you got those stats and rules from that you were talking about. It didn't even stick in my head that they had switched back to the Dieties & Demigods name from Legends & Lore. I'm not sure if I've ever even picked up the book to leaf through it, I can just feel from a distance that I should walk past. It just doesn't give off that old-school nakkid titties and copyright violation vibe.

You can't 'fix' Fastjack if you want him to always be better than you. Especially if you are going to insist that this must be based solely on a relatively narrow band of stats. Even if that band is wider than in SR3.

Besides because of the nebulious SR3 rules of Skill average +3 (and averaged in what way?) it isn't clear just how much of his noteriety is due to social abilities, and how much is from his r33+ h@x0r1/\/G. After all he is at least partially a social creature, collecting up all sorts of data from people. Not just haxxoring it all. EDIT That is barring any specific particulars stating otherwise given in the Target:Matrix, which I obviously can't confirm since I don't have the book.

Hastor! *oops* heee heee heee

The proper spelling is with a 'u', so Hastur, although there are a few other alternate spellings. Some people claim that you have to be careful how many times you say Hastur, but I don't believe it. It is simply schoolgirl silliness to think that a single being could be so powerful as to hear each and every random utterance of a short little name like Hastu®§ª±ç%^6×Øæ <connection lost>

yeah, i've never been a fan of using SR3's "better or worse than you by X" system for important NPCs. for one thing, it often clashes with the specific game information on the character:

Cherry node to work from, top shelf hacking skills, Etiquette(Matrix)/Negotiation, and a contact list that looks more like a public phone book should get you there. The contacts would be for letting you in the backdoor with a proper key instead of a prybar of the hard to get in places. He knows everyone and everyone knows him, and if they don't he supplements cream of the crop decking with social engineering (Con I guess).

Defaulting *is* the standard rule; you can generally default under most circumstances. There's nothing generous about it, you're just playing fair.

As far as "flat PC's" go-- any experienced gamer will tell you that it's the "balanced" characters that are usually the most bland and flat. Some of the best roleplay comes when you take an aspect of yourself, and take it to an extreme. If you, as a GM, are forcing players to take characters without these extremes, you're really cutting down on roleplay. I understand that some people prefer GM-Railroaded, cookie-cutter rollplay; but there's a lot of people who like to merge the numbers and concepts to create actual characters, instead of a page full of stats.

I'd rather take the most munchkinized combat monster than a well-rounded character any day, provided that the combat monster is coming in with an excellent character background and a player who's willing to roleplay. The most important rule is to have fun-- and roleplaying is what brings out the fun in a RPG.

Umm... you really should read that again. He has Unarmed Combat 2 (Martial Arts), which when combined with his Quickness of 7, totals to 11 dice. Not only have you gotten the numbers wrong (the reaction is off, as well), you've forgotten what the linked attribute is. Quickness is the linked stat for just about every combat skill, not Reaction. How did you miss that? No wonder why you think all stats are created equal; you must not be using the right ones at the right times.

And the encumberance penalty? That only applies when you're wearing more armor than Body x2. An armored jacket is 8/6, Mr. Lucky's Body is 4. 4 x 2 = 8, so no penalty. Math is a good thing.

According to the skill chart on p 109, Fastjack has a level 7 Technical skill (presumably Cracking). However, without doing a serious amount of GM handwaving on his gear, he's going to be rapidly matched by well-made starting characters. (According to Target: Matrix, Fastjack builds his own equipment and programs his own gear. Given five years since the new matrix came into place, there's only so much anyone could have reasonably done. You could push it, allow him to have rating 15 everything, but that's definitely NPC special treatment.)

T:M makes it abundantly clear that it's all due to his skills. He goes toe-to-toe with several other world-class deckers in the book (Bash, for one, the security decker for the Denver Nexus) and comes out on top. The concept of a "new to the concrete jungle" shadowrunner even being in his general neighborhood is difficult to swallow.

Plus 1/2 * Impact 6 + Non-conductive 6 = 9 which is greater than 8. Emcumberance, so a penalty to Reaction. And that is the kind ruling. I suppose some GMs might let Mr. Lucky slide on that, but others might also work in the Chemical Protection 6 rating. I don't really see the need to pile on though, the jacket just becomes even more obviously someone looking for a fight instead of a fashion statement. But really, that isn't the character's biggest problem because he just needs to get some lighter armor or tone down the extra stuff on the jacket to rating 5.

Consider Fastjack with the following skill load out:

Cracking Group
Cybercombat 6
Electronic Warfare 6
Hacking 7

Electronics Group
Computer 6
Data Search 6
Hardware 6
Software 6

Plus software relevant in the Rating 7-8 range (bought, tweaked or designed from scratch). Amped up commlink with higher than chargen ratings in all stats (bought, tweaked or designed from scratch). Now figure in a huge list of contacts, add in a million-nuyen gear and computer/electronics shop... Now compare that to a starting character.

You missed the Positive hacker centric Qualities. With those and Attributes applicable to a VR decker maximized even the most focused 400 BP character needs a minimum of nearly 300 karma to reach that.

You expect Unwired to allow custom Commlinks by RAW above 6? I definately expect to see non-portable nodes, or even man-portable backpack nodes with that kind of Rating and higher. I just wasn't really expecting regular size commlinks Response to rise.

I don't think those modifications count towards encumbrance, just the armor.

The RAW isn't particularly clear on that. It is open to interpretation, and it certainly does make sense IMO from a visualization point of view. Especially if multiple types of protection start getting layered on.

You finally bought SR4!

Or is that going off a several month old fuzzy memory of a partially completed document? No, it doesn't explicitly say that you include non-conductivity in the calculations. Nor does it explicitly say not to. But it is close enough in spirit [EDIT]and letter[/EDIT], and certainly helps curb some of the silliness.

You can reach similar dice availiable with a starting character and appropriate specializations. Still not as good, but too close for Fastjack to be a living legend. A starting otaku with a good Threading roll can easily close what little distance remains, making them virtually equal.

As far as the commlink and programs go, the problem is that the SR4 base book doesn't really support anything with a rating above 6. In order to have a program of 6 or better, you need a System of 6 or better, yes? And in order to have a System of 6 or better, you need a Response of 6 or better.

Problem is, in order to build a Response chip, you need to spend half of its value in parts. And the chart for prices only goes up to rating 6 (p 240). By canon, you can't build a Response chip that fast, which means you can't have an effective system (or any other program) that high. As a NPC, Fastjack is certainly entitled to a exception; but that's what I meant by GM handwaving. He'd only keep his Legendary status because the GM is using special-case rules.

Gotcha. You're only applying it because you can't figure out any other way of dealing with a well-optimized character. Yup, no GM Railroad tactics for you!

Mostly the Cain tries be a min-max weenie, and complains that SR4 lets him, but then whines when it is suggested that a GM would bring the game back in line using an alternate reasonable intepretation of the rules thread.

EDIT You might have been better off just using the Search button and blowing out your brains that way. In any event don't bother read past maybe the second page of the thread. Welcome to Dumpshock!

Thread drift happens. Right now, two things are happening: Synner is trying to show the difference between a legendary character and a starting one; and the rest of Dumpshock is trying to help brahm become a better GM. He apparently doesn't know how to handle a powerful character without resorting to GM-Hammer tactics, screeches insults when faced with logic, makes up rules to apply on characters he doesn't like, has mistaken skill lists for character development, and seems to have a poor understanding of the difference between rollplay and roleplay.

Dumpshock has seen worse than him, so we've still got hope that he'll learn something. Of course, with his attitude towards Dumpshock in particular, I have to wonder why he's even staying. It can't be for the self-inflicted humiliation; and he boasts about how he knows the rules so well, in the face of all availiable evidence. If he doesn't think he needs us, why is he here?

Specializations go both ways. I could have used specializations on Fastjack's skills list above just like I could have used Hacker Qualities. I simply presented a non-tweaked baseline for comparison with a non-tweaked starting character. Whatever you put in your tricked out starting character, you can also give Fastjack (and more since as an NPC he isn't limited by chargen limitations).

Have you actually tried this? Threading is not all its chalked up to be if your GM is playing by the rules. What makes TMs powerful are sprites, but then again Fastjack didn't earn his rep against TMs (not that they're that common to begin with) so the case is mute.

I don't see a problem. SR3 didn't allow anything above Rating 6 in the BBB either, SR4 just didn't have the space for it anyway.

All this means is that by the options available in the BBB only allow up to Rating 6. This doesn't mean Unwired won't expand on that - actually I can guarantee that it will.

All you're saying is you have problems with the growth and development limitations/options in the core book - a book tailored for people starting in on SR4. No problem with that. More options will be in available in the advanced rule books for those who want them.

In fact, it did.

Given that the core book states there might exist ratings above 6 in R&D...

Only if you assume 'armor modification rating' = 'armor rating'.

And that certainly isn't in the spirit of anything.

Indeed.

SR4 has many things beyond chargen, and even pointed out there may be better ratings.
That doesn't change the scale at all, which ranks a rating of 6 highest-end, and anything above that rare, potentially experimental stuff.

Skills go up to 10, but you need the Aptitude to reach 7 and augmentation to reach 10. The core book does not have the augmentation unless you are cool with Adepts using Improved Ability while in VR. I don't really like that, especially when no such augmentation is available to mundanes, although admittedly that is partially a nostalgia thing on my part as RAW currently doesn't describe anything blocking it.

Is 'armor modification rating' text you made up, because I can't find that phrase in the PDF. Although those weird spacing characters can throw the Search off and I'm just missing it. Curiously enough the Helmets section does talk about modifying the rating of the armor they are worn with when calculating Encumbrance.

Anyway, where I'm getting this from, with my own formatting for emphasis:

Taken very literally Mr. Luck would be more appropriately named Mr. Immobile, which is why I referred to my interpretation as the kind one.

The math is pretty straightforward. A good otaku can expect about 4 successes on a Threading roll, and can use a sprite to sustain it for him, causing no penalty; and the drain on a four-success roll isn't that heavy. That kicks a starting complex form from rating 6 to effective rating 10, which is higher than what you suggested Fastjack would have-- and would more than even the differences in skills.

Incorrect. There are many items that go up to Rating 10, and MPCP chips went up to rating 12. However, that's a side point.

That *still* means that Fastjack gets special NPC treatment. I'll acknowledge that future rules might address this; but if a NPC is allowed to use rules as-yet-unwritten, that's GM handwaving. Certainly it sometimes makes for a better game, but that doesn't address the power balance issue at hand.

And even then, Fastjack is still recieving special treatment. Given the stats you've suggested, Fastjack would have a very impressive 21 dice on all software and hardware tests. That averages to 7 successes per roll, which is very good.

Let's assume that Fastjack would have everything at rating 10; not unreasonable, given the circumstances. However, he would first need to build a Response chip that powerful, he would have a Threshold of 20 (1 day); so he'd likely be done in 3 days. Easy enough. The Signal chip also goes just as fast; let's call it a week, assuming he takes a break for coffee.

However, he then needs to code his System. That also has a threshold of 20, but the interval is 6 months. So, it'll take him 1.5 years to write the code. Coding his Firewall up to that level only takes half as long, for an additional 9 months. We are now at two years, three months, plus a week.

Now we get into the actual programs. There are seven common-use programs, which Fastjack will be able to crank out in two months apiece. Then, we have fifteen hacking programs, which require three months apeice. (7 x 2) + (15 x 3) = 59 months, or just under five years.

When combined with the previous time, Fastjack would have needed over seven years, two months in order to get his gear to that level. Which is fine; except it's been less than five years since the new matrix came into being. Suddenly, it's not possible for him to have built his legendary gear in the time allotted. We can assume that he scored better than average, but that starts to get into GM handwaving again-- we're sparing him the randomness of a roll, without also penalizing him in some way (e.g., buying successes).

NPC's are entitled to carry gear that goes beyond the usual character starting limits; that's a GM's perogative. However, if the equipment is too good, then it's a case of NPC special treatment. Sometimes you need it to make your story run better; but if we need special treatment to make Fastjack legendary, then there's a problem.

So, you're overliteralizing a rule because you're determined to find a way to hurt a character, and then bragging about how kind you are? Wow, that's both a Straw Man and a Prejudical Language fallacy all in one. You're also skirting with Argumentum ad ignorantiam, assuming that because the rules do not say so expressly, your opinion must be the true one. Since even one fallacy is enough to dismiss an argument, you've just taken yourself out of this discussion quite effectively.

There are a lot of GM's here who can help you learn to challenge your players without resorting to rules-lawyering and Orbital Cow Launches. It makes for better stories, and better gaming.

..for the exact moment he is taking electrical damage, if taking the rules literal, indeed.

Just, as one dodges before takeing damage, that doesn't mean a thing.

Ya, the non-conductive armor protection isn't physically there until you get tasered. You wacky funster.

No, absolutely not.

Those extra protections add extra bulk to the armor, notice the wording on some of those descriptions. They add extra layers. Expecting to max them out and not experience any problems if you have a lower Body is just silliness.

Notice that I didn't add up 6+6+6 = 18, or even 6+6=12 as would be suggestive of that text. Instead I calculated it in favour of the wearer of the armor based on the actual protection it gave (which is not what you normally do for layered armor).

What? No. By my ruling as long as your effective armor versus any particular type of attack did not exceed 2xBody you are ok. So in the case of Mr. Lucky all he has to do is lower those 2 upgrades to 5. I was just pointing out that if you wanted to be a stickler GM you could do what you are suggesting, and I agree, would be a pain in the ass, and greatly reduce the utility of those upgrades to most modest uses. Not something I would want to do.

EDIT I would like to see having lots of different types of protection represented somehow though. But I don't really see how to do that by RAW without basically crippling the upgrades or limiting it to only one type of upgrade on a piece of armor. So to do that in a gaming friendly manner would require house rules.

Rationalization. You only use 1/2 the Impact to determine how it interacts with the upgrade layers in a encumbering way. The Impact armor is still there though, and it will encumber as per normal Impact armor if that rating exceeds 2xBody.

Such is the price to be paid for being nice. If only I wasn't such a damn softie at heart.

In that case, I'd suggest dumping your previous ruling and going with something like: total armor mods cannot exceed that item's impact armor rating.

so an armored jacket (6 impact) could have 2 non-conductivity, 2 thermal dampening, and 2 insulation, or some other, interesting combination of mods.