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L.D
QUOTE (The Jopp)
QUOTE (L.D @ May 11 2006, 11:17 PM)
If you want to compare to the change to SR4, then imagine that FanPro said that instead of playing in 2070 SR4 would take place in 2021 with no goblinization, no orks and people changing into elves, dwarfs and trolls in 2012 (and more shit like that).

If they would do THAT then I would start collecting money from all DS’ers so that we could buy the rights for the Shadowrun RPG and make our own Shadowrun game – SR5 with a HUUGE disclaimer telling future gamers that SR4 never existed and that it was just a myth.

But that's what M$ is doing with the computer game and that's why so many people (including me) are so upset.
TimeKeeper
Sorry I've been gone for such a long time.

I watch the trailer and was confused by the resurrect spell, then died inside when I saw the teleport (my thought was... that's not possible... not even for magic).

Delving furthing into this.... there's no word to discribe what this is.

I have but one question....

When are we sending in the teams?
The Jopp
QUOTE (L.D)
QUOTE (The Jopp @ May 12 2006, 08:37 AM)
QUOTE (L.D @ May 11 2006, 11:17 PM)
If you want to compare to the change to SR4, then imagine that FanPro said that instead of playing in 2070 SR4 would take place in 2021 with no goblinization, no orks and people changing into elves, dwarfs and trolls in 2012 (and more shit like that).

If they would do THAT then I would start collecting money from all DS’ers so that we could buy the rights for the Shadowrun RPG and make our own Shadowrun game – SR5 with a HUUGE disclaimer telling future gamers that SR4 never existed and that it was just a myth.

But that's what M$ is doing with the computer game and that's why so many people (including me) are so upset.

Exactly, so we should buy the license from MS and make a REAL SR RPG with aHUUGE disclaimer that the MS game never existed. grinbig.gif

...

And you think I am NOT upset? frown.gif
L.D
LOL... yeah... that'll happen. Good idea though.

I didn't know if you had read about the new game.
The Jopp
QUOTE (L.D)
LOL... yeah... that'll happen. Good idea though.

I didn't know if you had read about the new game.

Seen the ads, seen the forums, seen the gawdawful screenshots. Then I cried…

A shadowrun FPS for me would need essences from the following games:

Deus Ex 1 & 2 (Cyberpunk, nanites, hacking etc)
System Shock 2 (FPS Hacking, Evil AI’s, scary athmosphere)
F.E.A.R (Supernatural happenings and really, really scary things)
Laser
So, since this game is significantly lacking in Shadowrun essence, can we call it a cyberzombie? biggrin.gif
L.D
I'd prefer to call it: "The Abomination"

Or perhaps "Shadowrun: Just kidding"
The Jopp
QUOTE (Laser)
So, since this game is significantly lacking in Shadowrun essence, can we call it a cyberzombie? biggrin.gif

Nope, since it is made and controlled by an evil force we should call it a Shedim - M$hedim grinbig.gif
L.D
ROFLMAO
biggrin.gif
Laser
QUOTE (The Jopp @ May 12 2006, 03:53 AM)
QUOTE (Laser @ May 12 2006, 08:45 AM)
So, since this game is significantly lacking in Shadowrun essence, can we call it a cyberzombie? biggrin.gif

Nope, since it is made and controlled by an evil force we should call it a Shedim - M$hedim grinbig.gif

rotfl.gif

They've often been compared to the borg, which are sort of distant relatives of the cyberzombie...
hobgoblin
hmm, over on slashdot they still use the bill gates of borg image to indicate microsoft-related news...
blakkie
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ May 12 2006, 12:09 AM)
But, you see, Adam West was excellent in the role. He pulled it off in a way that most other people couldn't (George Clooney, if I ever see you I will ask for my money back). Camp isn't easy to do well. Adam did it well.

Now, it isn't just that Shadowrun is bastardized. It is that what we have been shown doesn't look link anything but standard genre fare. If it has the quality and appeal of Adam West's Batman then mor epower to them. I havn't seen anything to suggest that it will. This looks more like the Batman and Robin of Shadowrun.

Maybe I've been out of the shooter scene too long, and i never played all the mods, but moving through normally solid walls, floors, and ceilings strikes me as very different. As do the res rules. "The rules of combat have changed" is at least a little bit more than an empty tagline.

Sure through the wall sensors have been done. And movement somewhat like what the glider does has been done, as has the purchase of equipment (the Essense cost might be a bit of a twist). But I think this game is actually taking a real risk with the teleport and res. I don't know if it will work, but it definately has the potential to differentiate itself in the market.

For better or for worse. So they still have room to pull off an Adam West....or, you know, not and fall flat on their face.

P.S. The teleport really changes the flow of the map for those that have it, and indirectly for those that don't. So one of the things i suspect that feature will do is create a higher "knowledge of the map" advantage, which i philosophically don't like. It will though create a real mental challenge to thinking about the map in that new way. I suspect it will be quite entertaining to sit in spectator mode and watch in action someone that is really skillful and knows the map well.
Kanada Ten
QUOTE (Dranem @ May 12 2006, 02:32 AM)
I can't beleive Kanada Ten actually posted that he would play this game! Have you no shame in actually showing interest in this falacy?!

Sure, it sucks that this is their best effort, but, if I get an XBox, playing a Shadowrun squad based FPS with my step-daughter & co. while she's in California is better than having to play a Counter-Strike squad based FPS. It's all relative.
mmu1
QUOTE (L.D)
I'd prefer to call it: "The Abomination"

Or perhaps "Shadowrun: Just kidding"

I'm calling it ShadowStrike.
MikeTrevin
I found this. It may be of interest.

http://www.dell.com/html/us/products/e3/index.html

Lower-right hand corner, the 'sneak peak'. I am unsure if this is different from other trailers posted elsewhere.
Warning: this post is probably fairly time-sensitive, and I have no idea how long the link will be relevant.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Two really real shadowrun fans just talking about the game, all real like. Honestly.

Man, I was totally wrong about this game. It's going to rock! Whats ur gamertag/ nebis nebis nebis nebis nebis…
James McMurray
To be fair, the guy bashing on the game is as much of a dork as the guy saying it'll be great. smile.gif
Kagetenshi
You expected something else from a plant? I'm not usually one to claim astroturfing, but if that's a genuine conversation I'm Arnold Palmer.

~J
Maltaltin
Ok... I can say nothing other then how can anyone in their right mind would even think about considering that game even remotely related to SR other then name, is beyond me. I hope that someone with half a brain will eventually buy the rights from Microsoft for SR so we can all enjoy SR without having a bunch of our friends over to dirty up our houses
Moon-Hawk
I don't know if it's real, I don't really care, and I know it's stupid and immature, but this made me laugh:
QUOTE
I know that you typed something just now, but all I can see is:

derggedddy duuurrrrrr, dep duppedy doo da whhhoooppaaahhhaaaa I'm 14  blah blah bum dum Shadowrun is cool derkydy derk!!!!
Firestorm
QUOTE (TimeKeeper)

When are we sending in the teams?

Drop Bear team ? rotate.gif

That might not be enough, but it could shake them a bit.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (blakkie)
P.S. The teleport really changes the flow of the map for those that have it, and indirectly for those that don't. So one of the things i suspect that feature will do is create a higher "knowledge of the map" advantage, which i philosophically don't like. It will though create a real mental challenge to thinking about the map in that new way. I suspect it will be quite entertaining to sit in spectator mode and watch in action someone that is really skillful and knows the map well.

Teleportation isn't new at all. Unreal Tournament 2003 did teleportation. Teleportiation isn't innovative at all. In fact, it is one of the easiest features to impliment in a FPS due to the very nature of video games. In games that neglect to disable the debug console teleportation is a rather common console cheat. Tele only problem with teleportation in an arena game is getting the co-ordinates right, which is why it is usually limited to preset pods, LOS, or a marked location. Without such limitation it would be possible for a player to teleport outside of the arena by accident or intent.

The Tree of Life spell, likewise, is just a healing station. Even the ressurect spell is just a modification of a genre trope. Medic characters are not uncommon in FPS games the difference is that in this case the medic can heal characters with 0HP and the charactrs will die if the medic dies.
blakkie
Just plain teleportation isn't new. But that's all fixed point or pre-setting waypoint teleportation. In UT 2003 you have to toss the marker out to set the target, which makes going through walls and traveling straight vertically very difficult unless you can rebound the marker off something to get it there. Or you dropped the marker and then run away and use the teleporter to get back.

The tree isn't that big a deal. But the medic continuing to be linked with the ressurected patient (apparently indefinately), including the fact that this is limited by both the medic's implants and prior ressurections, is new AFAIK and that is an interesting difference. Even just bringing back the fallen where they dropped (unless they were gibbed it would seem) is fairly different.
eralston
Woh, that guy on the Shadowrun thread defending the game cause it's graphics are good is a moron. Has he not seen the in-game videos? They look nothing like the trailer

This game does nothing new AND shits on our beloved Shadowrun. I wish to incite violence against it's distribution

PS The guys who would suck MS's balls for making SR minesweeper don't sound like SR players at all
hobgoblin
i have seen the tree effect in some FPS mods i think.

and the heal where he fell was in wolfenstein: enemy territory or whatever the free game's name is. dont know about that link part but i have a feel it more like a limited number of heals then anything else...

and teleportation can be done in any FPS, its just that its not often done because its hard to balance as someone can in theory just bypass any chokepoint rather then fight.

you dont need the drop marker that they use in UT. what you need is to draw a line out from the person teleporting in the direction they are looking, and long that line look for a proper place to land, one that will not drop you out of the map or land you inside something.
eralston
Nothing's sexier than coming into existence in the middle of an object. I almost cheated levitation into the SR short that way, but the collision detection would eventually kick in and just kill the character (then squeeze them out of the object, launching them into the air). It was hilarious.
blakkie
@hobgoblin

I'm not suggesting it is particularly hard to program popping the characters around the map. The game draws objects, including players, at whatever coordinates they are set to and it is programically easy to just change those to some other arbitrary coordinates instead of the normal change that is occuring from running/walking/jumping movements.

It's just than nobody does adhoc teleport as part of the rule set (backdoor console commands don't count nyahnyah.gif ). So if they do adhoc AND they make it work as a fun game then they have a differentiation in the market....besides being one of few team combat FPS on the 360 (and owned by a company that has control over the options available with a potential competitor, Halo).

P.S. I purposely avoided calling ressurection of a fallen body unique, it seems pretty obvious that someone would have tried that in a mod by now. I did check out the Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory and you are right that they have that. Nothing about a maintained link between the medic and the patient, though the rez uses up a resource item from their inventory that they have to resupply from a depot. Still rez of the body doesn't seem overly common. There have been games though where it works like prison tag. When you 'die' you get locked up till a teammate physically hits a trigger to release you.
Kanada Ten
Guild Wars has a rez enchantment that ties the resurrected to the Monk's life (it's a powerful version of rez, with a powerful disadvantage). It also has a teleport, but not through walls, IIRC, just to the nearest unexploited dead body. Of course, Guild Wars isn't an FPS.
blakkie
QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ May 12 2006, 04:42 PM)
It also has a teleport, but not through walls, IIRC, just to the nearest unexploited dead body.

.... useful if you like going around exploiting dead bodies?

That sounds so wrong. smile.gif "Looting corpses" sounds so less.....in need of professional help.
Kanada Ten
Well, in Guild Wars, a main character class is the Necromancer with one of its primary skill sets requiring the exploitation of dead bodies (to make zombies called bone horrors, heal yourself or others, gain mana, or cause them to explode). As a primary class, the Necromancer gains mana every time a creature or spirit dies, as well.
Austere Emancipator
The HL mod Natural Selection includes static healing services (and all sorts of other ways of dealing with near-death or death, although admittedly none of them ties the resurrectee to the resurrecter), gliding and flying critters, and blinking -- not through walls, but, at least when I last played it, could be used vertically or through characters and certain other objects.
hobgoblin
ok, did someone just read the lastet blogs? there will be no directly offensive magics. no power bolts, not fireballs, nada. this is just insane, and sadly im starting to understand the use of jihad...
eralston
Holy crap *facesmack* just when you thought it couldn't get any worse
Typhon
QUOTE (blakkie @ May 11 2006, 07:35 PM )

The Batman TV series.  That was a ultra-camp, public broadcast sanitized bastardization of Batman. But it has become a somewhat successful and culturally accepted take on Batman


Although Batman as a character still remained mostly intact, his past remained almost identical to the comic, and his virtues as a human being stayed the same, which is why no matter how "camp" he became he was still essentially Batman.

Now people over at the game's forums have been using an argument similar to this but in favor of the drastic changes to the Shadowrun universe, mainly the argument is that Superman has had his backstory changed many times and this has only helped his franchise. The following is a post I made there to explain the flaws in that argument


QUOTE (Typhon)

I was thinking it of a way to describe it best and in that I believe I have found the best argument on why the history and universe is important

Take Superman, everyone argues that his history has changed many times and that it hasn't hurt the comic, well that is because Superman the comic is about Superman the character, and as long as the character doesn't change the feel of Superman won't change. Now I don't mean evolve, that is what make people love a character, it's being able to watch his journey as a human and being able to sympathize with any problems he encounters.

In other words comparing Shadowrun to Superman is a bad comparison. if we want to make a comparison to a comic book we would need to pick a comic book that doesn't center around a character, but rather the world, because that is what Shadowrun is all about, so in this argument I believe a better comparison is Frank Miller's Sin City. Now the characters of Sin City change constantly, hardly ever the same one more then once, and several of them have been killed, only to show up in another story but the one thing that both links them all together and the one character that never changes is the city itself. For you see the city is the main character of the book. The comic isn't called Frank Miller's Dwight, Marv or even Hartigan, it's called Sin City because that is the one character that always remains a constant.

And this is what Shadowrun is. Shadowrun isn't Big D, Ares, magic, orks or cybertech, It's the gritty world in which Big D, Ares, magic, orks and cybertech all have their story played out.

But Typhon, you say, Big D and the rest are the history and you said the history is what is important. This is very true , I would say, this is why Sin City has Senator Roark, Old town, dark alleys, and large guns, because these are all the people and things that help Sin City be Sin City, and the history of Shadowrun is what helps Shadowrun stay Shadowrun. What I mean is Because it's a RPG the main characters will never be the same in one game to the next, but the supporting characters (ie the history) will be the same just as in Sin City the feel and history are the supporting characters that remain the constant.

So this is my belief why there is such an uproar from us fans about this game, you see, you have promised us a game about our favorite character, Shadowrun, and instead gave us a story about someone else entirely.
hyzmarca
My response to the Superman thing is a simple question. When did Superman stop being an alien from the Planet Krypton who has superpowers due to Earth's yellow sun and realitivly low gravity?

Superman's backstory has never changed, with the small eception of the Superboy career which isn't exactly that important to Superman. The backstories of all his supporting characters have changed drasticly of course, but that really isn't the same.

What they are doing to Shadowrun is like changing Superman into some sort of energy being but DC would never consider doing that because they have too much taste. Right?
eralston
I can definitely agree with the Sin City argument and at this point, would they say superman would still be Super if he couldn't fly?

In changing the genre they totally changed the game. What if they had made campy batman a variety show instead of cheesy melodrama with onimanapia fights? Could you still call it batman? That was also made in a time when they didn't have much of a choice about presenting something with ballz. With a gritty game like "Condemned" on the system, you'd think they wouldn't have had to compromise.

No, the real compromise is the 360 obsession with maintaining the FPS as the idealogically dominant game in the console market. As long as Sony is chasing Halo they won't settle for whipping M$'s ass with amazing games like God of War and Shadow of the Collossus.
blakkie
QUOTE (Typhon @ May 14 2006, 01:42 AM)
QUOTE (blakkie @  May 11 2006, 07:35 PM )

The Batman TV series.  That was a ultra-camp, public broadcast sanitized bastardization of Batman. But it has become a somewhat successful and culturally accepted take on Batman


Although Batman as a character still remained mostly intact, his past remained almost identical to the comic, and his virtues as a human being stayed the same, which is why no matter how "camp" he became he was still essentially Batman.

I don't have the list of screwiness, i'm just not that kind of Batman fan. But the personality of a lot of the characters was seriously shifted with the camp.

I think that that very few people here are acknowledging, or even recognizing what they likely did get right.

- big corp with extraterritorality and contracts for wide scoped civil law & order management
- no obviously morally "right" party
- massive destruction of civilality
- cyberware (don't see any bioware, which would be "correct")
- multiple cycles of magic/no magic, the last one begining roughly the end of the Mayan Calendar (which both of them are off on by a few days)
- ancient big magic (in a little different form though)
- elfs, dwarves, and trolls (yes, i'm aware they are a good decade early for the "proper intro of adults", and the greyhaired one becomes even wierder, and no orcs to be seen in the game, but it is still a definate similarity)
- they did manage to plop it down in a time/place that isn't that well covered in the P&P (yet)

I personally feel they could have come closer to canon in some things and still carried out their vision for their game. Hell even the teleport could be closer if they made it like the ED, and as a bonus they'd have wards as a level design tool (the trailer actually kinda shows it like that, where it is leaving a trail, giving the impression that it isn't merely instantaneous travel but really fast immaterial travel). The part of the cycle this came back in would obviously be way, way off but at least it is magic that will eventually be available outside the very few immortals that are likely to have it now.


I some ways I think that SR fans are extremely sheltered. They are used to authors that put an extreme and frankly inordinate amount of effort in to continuity. Which is why you just don't see the Planet Krypton or yellow sun, which are there. The focus is on the things that have become so much accepted fact, but are in some ways are quite peripheral to the -tone-. Exact year an elf becomes a viable mature? In the big sceme of things not so important to the -tone-. Cripies, SR itself tossed in spike babies.

Welcome to the pain so many other rabid fanbois have felt. :/
hobgoblin
self-healing elfs? magic-negating dwarfs? where are those in SR as we know it?
James McMurray
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
What they are doing to Shadowrun is like changing Superman into some sort of energy being but DC would never consider doing that because they have too much taste. Right?

I seem to have vague recollections of them doing that at one point, didn't they? After he died maybe? It's also possible that those memories were clouded by LSD at some point and are totally fictitous. smile.gif
Grinder
Mhhh... LSD he said. biggrin.gif
hobgoblin
i think they did. but these days he is back in his red and blue...
James McMurray
Does anyone know which of his runs that was in, and the issue numbers? I remember seeing them but never got a chance to read them.
blakkie
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ May 14 2006, 10:44 AM)
self-healing elfs? magic-negating dwarfs? where are those in SR as we know it?

Magic resistant dwarves? Last I checked SR dwarves do tend to have a higher Willpower than the other races. So it certainly seems roughly in the neighborhood, though obviously no directly harmful magic (from POV of their game i get that) is going to bring that out in a mechnically different way. (i didn't read that particular part yet, i haven't read through all their blog entries).

The elf thing, they seem to have seriously gimped their Body beyond what SR normally would do and replaced it with some sort of mild regeneration/healing magic for an interesting game balance aspect. I'm still trying to figure out if any of the metas other than elfs can cast spells.

So the point still stands, there are basic similarities. It's just that it is the orginal SR as viewed through a very strong set of Beer Goggles™.
mfb
there are basic similarities, woo-pah. this could just as easily be a game based on d20 Modern/Future.
blakkie
QUOTE (mfb @ May 14 2006, 08:58 PM)
there are basic similarities, woo-pah. this could just as easily be a game based on d20 Modern/Future.

Ok, it is SR as viewed by nearly sentient primates wearing Beer Goggles™.

But even if they hadn't put the name "Shadowrun" on the site it still would have been blatantly obvious that they were cribbing from SR....using drunk monkeys. And hey every one loves monkeys! smile.gif
James McMurray
Especially the drunk ones, which I suppose is why foplks haven't burnt you at the stake yet. wink.gif

For the record, I don't think blakkie is a drunk monkey, I just thought it sounded funny. Drunk monkeys everywhere would have me lynched if I actually tried to make that comparison. biggrin.gif
hobgoblin
QUOTE (blakkie)
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ May 14 2006, 10:44 AM)
self-healing elfs? magic-negating dwarfs? where are those in SR as we know it?

Magic resistant dwarves? Last I checked SR dwarves do tend to have a higher Willpower than the other races. So it certainly seems roughly in the neighborhood, though obviously no directly harmful magic (from POV of their game i get that) is going to bring that out in a mechnically different way. (i didn't read that particular part yet, i haven't read through all their blog entries).


its not that they are themselfs more resistant to magical effects, but that they negate the use of magic in a area around them. or atleast thats how i understood it. its kinda like those animals in star wars that can negate the force.

QUOTE
The elf thing, they seem to have seriously gimped their Body beyond what SR normally would do and replaced it with some sort of mild regeneration/healing magic for an interesting game balance aspect. I'm still trying to figure out if any of the metas other than elfs can cast spells.


it seems that all can select magic, and all can select "cyberware". and cyberware seems to limit the pool of magical energy you have available. ok, so said pool can be seen as a more game friendly take on drain (kinda like all action versions of D&D for consoles gives you a mana pool rather then a number of slots per "day").

but in the end both magic and tech becomes a kind of equipment, so why not give them the posibility to use magic as a weapon? because it have potentialy unlimited ammo? you can park our ass in a corner and spam fireballs all day? i just dont get the argument for not allowing magic as a weapon when they allow it as a kind of equipment.

QUOTE
So the point still stands, there are basic similarities. It's just that it is the orginal SR as viewed through a very strong set of Beer Goggles™.


the same kind of googles that they supply the marketing people at microsoft?
ShadowDragon8685
But of course. Brand loyalty - and they make the brand.

Microsoft ™ eBeers Perception-alteration headset. It allows them to believe their marketing, research, development, and design people.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ May 15 2006, 01:14 AM)
But of course. Brand loyalty - and they make the brand.

Microsoft ™ eBeers Perception-alteration headset. It allows them to believe their marketing, research, development, and design people.

Don't waste money on overpriced designer beer goggles, just make your own. All you need is two pairs of goggles, a can of beer, and some hot glue. Pour the beer into one pair of goggles until it is full then attach them to the other goggles. Seal the two pairs of goggles together with hot glue and wear them. The result is perfectly functional beer goggles for under 10 nuyen.gif .

Not only did DC make Superman into an Energy being shortly after his rebirth (due to having his powers supplemented when some supervillian blacked out the sun or something like that) they split him in half. For a while, there were two energy-being supermen running around. We all know how that worked out. Not too good. There is a reason that Superman is back to his old self, and that reason is that almost every Superman fan knew that it was a fucktaculously stupid idea in the first place.

Which brings us back to this apparent abomination. I understand that they want to make a good game without being bound by what came before, but what came before is pretty much free automatic flavor. Really, a lot of what has to be done to make a good realstic game world has already been done for them. All they had to do was translate. Instead they choose to strip it off and, apparently, replace it with something frightfully half-assed. Hell, I may reserve judgement for its release but their work on the flavor, thebackstory, and the world in general seems almost quarter-assed.
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