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FrankTrollman
The world of 2071 has a computer in everything. Dedicated servers run coffee machines, refrigerators, doors, lights, heating systems, trid sets, and everything else you will ever encounter or use. The man on the street hasn't got the time to manually set all these computers or press little buttons on them or anything - and he doesn't have to. There's a wonderful little gadget called a Commlink that allows each person to carry around a single user interface that accesses the computers around you and give them instructions within a single immutable metaphor that you carry from system to system.

It's awesome. If you want to lock a door, or order a pizza, or turn offthe oven, you can do so by reaching into your pocket and pulling out your commlink and requesting these functions. Heck, you don't even have to be at your home for a lot of this, because if there's an external rebroadcaster within range of your home (and there is if you don't live in a farraday cage) you can have your commlink send its requests to the nearest link to the optic network backbone and have your signals retransmitted in your neighborhood to have your will be done.

You don't even need to have functionality or processor power on your commlink particularly. All you need is to have access to devices around you that have processing power to spare and use. Your Commlink doesn't predict the weather or perform temperature checks on soykaf to make sure it doesn't scald - these are done by the physical devices that give a damn . Your commlink just serves as an interface for your user input into these processes. If you decide that you like your soykaf scalded, you can simply send the appropriate instructions to your coffee maker and the Braun 2800 will adjust brewing temperature automatically. Your commlink is essentially a remote control, it's not even an iPod - so long as you're wearing some display system for it to interact with, you can watch your favorite trid shows. They are possibly stored in Dubai. Or maybe in the Braun 2800, you probably don't even know. And that's fine, because you don't have to know, the wonders of modern technology handle that for you.

Unfortunately, there are Hackers in the world. These criminals undermine society by having illegally modified commlinks that pretend to be other commlinks. They perform constant identity thefts with their systems that mimic the perfectly legitimate service requests that fly through the air all the time. They can watch your trid shows, using your micropayment account to do so. They can make your soykaf cold or turn the heat up in your garage - all exactly as if you had decided to send these service requests yourself, because they seriously are using their illegal commlinks to send requests that are the same as your own.

Maybe these Hackers will take name in vain to make service requests to have the episodes of Who Wants to Conquer Libya? or Celebrity Knife Fight!! you saved sent to their glasses and watch them on your .01 Nuyen. Maybe they'll unlock your front door exactly as you might if you were coming home with groceries in your arms. The point is that the computers you work with every day, the ones you don't even notice as they seemlessly bend to your will, they will now do the bidding of some shady Shadowrunner. And that can be a danger to your bank account and your family.

Now you may be asking: Who stands against these miscreants? Who will bring the hammer of society down upon those who would use illegal commlink modification to destroy it? I'm glad you asked. That's where the Corporate Court has your interests firmly in hand and mind.

You see, when a financial request is made, there are verifications. I know, it's kind of a pain in he ass to put your finger on your commlink and send a real-time picture of your finger to ZO every time you set up an expense account, but that's an important security check. When Shadowrunners make financial requests of this sort, they have to duplicate your finger picts somehow - and Zurich Orbital can usually recognize a shop from the pixels and because they've seen a number of shops in their time. Once fraud is detected (and they are pretty good about detecting fraudulent requests on their watch), proactive security teams can be sent after the offending ommlink owner, and those pesky Shadowrunners can be stopped.

It is for this reason that Shadowrunners do not normally steal money directly out of your account or authorize the transfer of funds into their own certified credsticks. Instead what they normally do is request the sending of proprietary content which you have already licensed. This is far more pernicious, and if anything undermines our society even more. You see, once you've already contracted ith Horizon to send you media content on demand, your open-ended financial transfer has already been authorized (which is why you don't have to send a pic of your thumb or eye every time you want to list to fairy girl). By masking their illegal commlink as yours, they can have music and trid sent directly to their viewers and your account has already been authorized to make the appropriate micropayment as if you were using the media yourself.

The World Recording Industry Army does what it can to terminate users of illegally modified commlinks from stealing your content usage, but it's an uphill struggle.

-Frank
Cheops
Sounds like "Don't Download This Song," by 'Wierd Al' Yankovich.
2bit
Thanks for the PSA smile.gif
Butterblume
Nicely put, FrankTrollman \o/.

I should print it out and give it my players to read.
DireRadiant
Ah, the commlink as universal remote idea!
mfb
at the low end--the average user--that's basically true. higher-end commlinks obviously do more than simply give you remote control over devices. but, yeah, this is basically how i imagine the wireless world working.
Ophis
You want your Commlink to do more you buy programmes and a better commlink unit. Thank you Frank that is an excellent piece of fluff, please tell me it wasn't a reject submission.
Draug
Very nice.

However, I'll agree with mfb that it's probably more viable for low-end commlinks than high-end ones. Like Ophis says though, buy programmes and shit and you can do more stuff.

Perhaps you should toss in something explaining this too?
deek
Honestly, I agree with Frank on even the high-end commlinks...the only things that are really changing with more expensive comms are the signal and response...in a wireless and overly connected world, as what I believe SR4 is, data and apps can and do reside virtually anywhere.

The comm doesn't physically need any sort of storage, just access to systems. I wouldn't want my SIN physically on my comm, nor any of my illegal programs or files...and in SR4 you don't have to have them there, just the capability to access them. Heck, even the functionality of a phone doesn't have to be "in" the comm...you have peripherals that handle seeing, hearing and voice...

I am all into the idea of a comm being the ultimate UI device that is capable of connecting with all types of electronics and giving you access to connected storage devices...it just makes sense that all your data would be someplace other than your comm...
Serbitar
Thats allready the case. The main difference between Franks idea and RAW is processing power. In RAW, major processing power is provided by a commlink. In Franks view, a commlinks processing power is negligible compared to the massive power of mainframes standing arround somewhere and providing it via matrix wherever it is needed.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (deek)
I am all into the idea of a comm being the ultimate UI device that is capable of connecting with all types of electronics and giving you access to connected storage devices...it just makes sense that all your data would be someplace other than your comm...

It doesn't.
The thin client hype pops up every three years or so, only to vanish in hot air and buzzwords.

As per rules, only programs running on your system can be used by your persona directly.
sunnyside
Well actually a shadowrunner DOES have to have everything on their come because the good stuff usually IS in a faraday cage (since you can do that with paint nowdays).

However after reading that I think I may float a couple missions from a future version of the RIAA and see if they'll bite.
deek
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (deek)
I am all into the idea of a comm being the ultimate UI device that is capable of connecting with all types of electronics and giving you access to connected storage devices...it just makes sense that all your data would be someplace other than your comm...

It doesn't.
The thin client hype pops up every three years or so, only to vanish in hot air and buzzwords.

As per rules, only programs running on your system can be used by your persona directly.

In RL, yeah, I certainly agree...but in SR4, I personally like the idea...

Could you quote the page for those rules? I am not disagreeing with you, but I would like to know what you are quoting...I suppose the way I think about it is that Response (part of the comm/hardware) is where your programs/apps are being loaded. So I do agree with your comment on only programs running on the system can be used directly...I'm just saying that they certainly don't have to be stored there, they just need to be loaded and ran with a complex action (per the rules)...storage...they can be anywhere you have access too...IMO, of course.
cetiah
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
As per rules, only programs running on your system can be used by your persona directly.

I could see players using outside servers to store programs and such, and even outside processing power. A hacker, however, needs those resources locally. I imagine it would be a really easy thing for an IC to say "okay, no more attack program!" severing your connection to your "program servers" while you are in his node.

But it doesn't explain why hackers and standard characters wouldn't just use top-of-the-line open-source software for analyze, browse, sniffers, and the like, so it's best just to leave that whole can of worms closed, probably. As it is, there's really no understanding why a top-of-the-line hacker who deals in drugs and firearms can't get free pirated top-rated programs, but again, it's probably best to assume that's a game thing as opposed to a setting thing.

deek
QUOTE (sunnyside)
Well actually a shadowrunner DOES have to have everything on their come because the good stuff usually IS in a faraday cage (since you can do that with paint nowdays).

However after reading that I think I may float a couple missions from a future version of the RIAA and see if they'll bite.

Just a difference of opinion, I suppose. Seeing that data could be stored in memory (then offloaded at a later date) or external storage that is physically with the runner...I don't see a problem...I just like the idea (and use it in my games) of not really having the main storage physically embedded in the comm.

Sure, you may have a datachip connected or whatnot, but most of the ways I have described it, like say for a SIN or some other loot, the comm just has the subscribed devices listed, which allows the hacker to access those datastores...so, getting a stolen comm and wiping it is as easy as just wiping the subscription lists and starting fresh. The whole idea of losing a comm and then having no SIN, no access to money, et cetera just doesn't work for me...
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Jan 26 2007, 10:53 PM)
QUOTE (deek)
I am all into the idea of a comm being the ultimate UI device that is capable of connecting with all types of electronics and giving you access to connected storage devices...it just makes sense that all your data would be someplace other than your comm...

It doesn't.
The thin client hype pops up every three years or so, only to vanish in hot air and buzzwords.

As per rules, only programs running on your system can be used by your persona directly.

true, the high end apps will never be any useful when loaded off a server...

but the avarage office pack can be run inside a web browser these days.
even MS is looking into it wink.gif

still, the scenario frank describes can be pulled off. think X(HT)ML and stuff like that.

every device provides its own website (ARO) and you can use that to control basic funtions.

hell, home routers and even networked multifunction printers come with web interfaces these days.

hmm, isnt the apple dashboard widgets XML based? should not be a stretch to load them from a url when requested.

heh, i have been toying around with the idea for a decentralized computing system where each device provides not only the hardware, but the software.

basically build a kind of browser into the display and have it render the UI provided by each device attached to it.

and said attachment could be very very vague nyahnyah.gif

have a "industrial" toaster where you can fill it with enough slices of bread to last a week, and the coffee machine could be remotely controlled to spit out your exact kind of latte on request wink.gif

all this done from across the world if wanted.

hell, get it standardized and you could get your personal latte at a corner vendor just by transmitting the data stored on your home machine, or carried on your comlink.
Rotbart van Dainig
Sure, you can do it - it's just a transparence problem, and some of it is already implemented.

And there you are, exchanging storage consumption for network traffic... when it makes sense:
In a world where storage is cheap and near-infinite, it still will be a healthy balance.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Serbitar)
Thats allready the case. The main difference between Franks idea and RAW is processing power. In RAW, major processing power is provided by a commlink. In Franks view, a commlinks processing power is negligible compared to the massive power of mainframes standing arround somewhere and providing it via matrix wherever it is needed.

Well... that's not actually addressed in the core book. Your hardware's response limits:

QUOTE
Response is the device's processing power, or how quickly it reacts to inputs and processes commands and information.


But it doesn't ever say that the programs you are running are specifically being cranked through on the chips inside your Commlink. Indeed, some of the programs (Track and Browe for example) are clearly not run in any meaningful way on your Commlink. The rest could just as plausibly be running on your jacket or belt buckle and directed by your commlink as running on your commlink itself.

Indeed, whether your commlink is actually running your programs or simply subscribing to them is not an addressed point in the SR4 book. And of course, it generally doesn't matter.

Of course, if your commlink is actually running all the programs you are using, then the Agent Smith attack is broken, while as if it is simply directing all the programs located on other servers and devices then it isn't - so you know which way I tend to read it.

---

From a character standpoint, the primary difference is that with an entirely decentralized system, hackers are going to drag in wearable devices to provide extra computing power when they infiltrate sites with a closed wireless connection (thanks to WiFi suppressing Paint this is easy and doesn't require running copper mesh through exterior walls). Personally, I like the idea of hackers filling up on pull-tab buritos and 60-day air fresheners before they head out - those little devices run a constant olfactory scan and emit a small puff of cyclodextrin when "bad smells" come into its range (which means that you can wipe their firmware with a tag eraser and then load them up with attack subroutines that your commlink can call up to be released at matrix icons you don't like...)

-Frank
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
The rest could just as plausibly be running on [...]

What you mean by 'run on'?
Where it is processed? Or where it is stored?

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
which means that you can wipe their firmware with a tag eraser and then load them up [...]

A tag 'eraser' deep fries a RFID tag... if you use it on regular electronics, everything from nothing to smoke signals can happen.
cetiah
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
The rest could just as plausibly be running on [...]

What you mean by 'run on'?
Where it is processed? Or where it is stored?

On the Matrix. On the PAN. On your P2P file-sharing program. Or on some other ubiquitous data-sharing anomoly. It's not like the information is stored or processed in a room or on a device somewhere. That's just crazy-talk.


MaxHunter
QUOTE
(Cetiah ) That's just crazy-talk.


...It's crazy. It's just a little bit obsessive too. It doesn't generally make sense;

Welcome to Dumpshock Forums!!!! smile.gif spin.gif

Cheers,

Max
kzt
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
The thin client hype pops up every three years or so, only to vanish in hot air and buzzwords.

Really? So the citrix server farm that runs Cerner on the hundreds of winterms we have. doesn't really exist?
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (kzt)
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Jan 26 2007, 02:53 PM)
The thin client hype pops up every three years or so, only to vanish in hot air and buzzwords.

Really? So the citrix server farm that runs Cerner on the hundreds of winterms we have. doesn't really exist?

Right. See while you may think that you have a single set of massive computational resources that can be tapped into and utilized by any of the workers in your company so long as you have assured bandwidth sufficient to send the commands - that's just futurist propaganda.

Actually you have a similarly sized unit of computational power allocated into each and every terminal in your company, and they just tell you that you are simply manipulating a bulky server farm in order to keep you from stealing the immensely powerful windows boxes sitting at each and every desk.

/sarcasm

Seriously, distributing processing power is amazingly powerful, and the only practical way to even attempt many of the high-end cryptographic schemes. So long as bandwidth is not a limiting factor, the thin terminal concept is immensely useful and prctical. In the case of cryptography, for example, the inputs and outputs use up a very small amount of bandwidth compared to the number of calculations that need to be done. Thus, they can be distributed even if the bandwidth available is very small.

The Bandwidth positted in Shadowrun is not small. It's very very fast, to the point where the bottle neck of operating programs is your processor speed rather than your wireless signal's bandwidth. That's... a lot of bandwidth.

Under those circumstances, distributing processor tasks is a no brainer. So much so that the total available processor power is virtually unlimited. That is, you can perform X calculations in a second with an object the size of a quarter without seriously impacting the available WiFi space, and then you can have a ten dollar roll of quarters that performs 40X calculations, and you can one in each hand, and one in each pocket, and so on and so forth...

The only meaningful limitation of Shadowrun computations, therefore, is how much you can orchestrate together into a whole - which is in turn a limitation of your System. That is, you can jolly well keep stacking micro devices one on top of another until the "no appreciable weight" eventually adds up and breaks the camel's back - but there's still a hard limit of how much you can get to all play nicely together at any given time.

That's the limitation on a Shadowrun hacker. Basically the only limitation on a Shadowrun Hacker, and it's the reason that they are constantly seeking out illegally modified software and hardware to be able to Shanghai more and more programs and devices into simultaneously working on their behalf.

-Frank
Serbitar
Well, I see that this concept would work in reality. But unfortunetely it would not work as a game concept as it is too complicated and would require too much micro management.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (kzt)
So the citrix server farm that runs Cerner on the hundreds of winterms we have. doesn't really exist?

Winterms? I would call that a fatclient. wink.gif
It would be interesting to know if it is done for reasons other than licencing issues...

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
See while you may think that you have a single set of massive computational resources that can be tapped into and utilized by any of the workers in your company so long as you have assured bandwidth sufficient to send the commands - that's just futurist propaganda.

And it will never be as swift as a normal desktop box.
Such decisions are made on a cost basis, and with the low prices for computers today, it's usually cheaper to just use network and servers for storing the home directories of users.

BTW - the star structure you are referring to isn't really a good example for the mesh structure you are proposing...

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Actually you have a similarly sized unit of computational power allocated into each and every terminal in your company, and they just tell you that you are simply manipulating a bulky server farm in order to keep you from stealing the immensely powerful windows boxes sitting at each and every desk.

You mean like all those CAD boxes sporting certified GPUs that cost more than a whole consumer PC?

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
The Bandwidth positted in Shadowrun is not small. It's very very fast, to the point where the bottle neck of operating programs is your processor speed rather than your wireless signal's bandwidth.

That's not entirely true - it's near-instantaneous.
Transfers normally complete at the end of the combat turn they are started (unless the GM determines otherwise for exceptionally large files), so it may take about three seconds.

Essentially, memory and bandwidth are equally distributed in SR4.
Going for solutions focussing on one aspect would be pretty inefficient.

QUOTE (Serbitar)
Well, I see that this concept would work in reality. But unfortunetely it would not work as a game concept as it is too complicated and would require too much micro management.

Oh, there are simple implementations... just add everything together.
The problem lies elsewhere: The very concept results in a spiral of escalation.
Serbitar
Well, "adding everything" together is not that easy when every single thing in SR4 has some processing power, and is running some programs.
Rotbart van Dainig
If you go that route, it becomes quite easy:

You declare your whole PAN a single node, adjust response to the amount of devices and if you loose significant amounts of them, in addition to loosing response, your persona gets permanent damage boxes that last until you reboot... let's say 1 box for every 10%.
Serbitar
Thats a very coarse grained method . . . and not capped at all.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Serbitar)
and not capped at all.

Indeed.
That's the problem.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Serbitar)
Well, I see that this concept would work in reality. But unfortunetely it would not work as a game concept as it is too complicated and would require too much micro management.

OK, this assessment is something I just don't understand. With the mesh client, you literally don't know or care where programs are or what they are doing. The only important thing is that if you are jammed, your programs don't work on anything you lack a wired connection to. That seems... intuitively obvious.

Where things get overly complicated is the other way. If programs are literally running on your commlink, then there's nothing stopping you from having 3 or 4 commlinks that are all running different program suites. I'm fond of having a "Medic Bot" for example, that simply runs an agent setup to interact with an unrelated node your icon is subscribed to that runs Medic on your icon every round. That's... complicated.

But that sort of thing is also inevitable if the system limits of your commlink are literally the limits of what your comm can have on it at one time rather than the limits of the number of things your comm can coordinate. If it's actually important what processing or programming is located on each piece of computational hardware, then obviously micromanagement increases beyond the complexity threshold that I am willing to deal with.

-Frank

cetiah
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
If you go that route, it becomes quite easy:

You declare your whole PAN a single node, adjust response to the amount of devices and if you loose significant amounts of them, in addition to loosing response, your persona gets permanent damage boxes that last until you reboot... let's say 1 box for every 10%.

I've been thinking of giving a -2 "distraction bonus" to using devices that are not plugged into your PAN, since I figure AR-networked has become the norm of 2070. I haven't done it yet; just a thought I've been playing with. Maybe there would be a quality or something for people this doesn't apply to.
Rotbart van Dainig
That's great. Let's invent even more extra rules concerning electronics usage... sarcastic.gif
Serbitar
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Jan 27 2007, 05:33 PM)
QUOTE (Serbitar @ Jan 27 2007, 07:22 AM)
Well, I see that this concept would work in reality. But unfortunetely it would not work as a game concept as it is too complicated and would require too much micro management.

OK, this assessment is something I just don't understand. With the mesh client, you literally don't know or care where programs are or what they are doing. The only important thing is that if you are jammed, your programs don't work on anything you lack a wired connection to. That seems... intuitively obvious.

Where things get overly complicated is the other way. If programs are literally running on your commlink, then there's nothing stopping you from having 3 or 4 commlinks that are all running different program suites. I'm fond of having a "Medic Bot" for example, that simply runs an agent setup to interact with an unrelated node your icon is subscribed to that runs Medic on your icon every round. That's... complicated.

But that sort of thing is also inevitable if the system limits of your commlink are literally the limits of what your comm can have on it at one time rather than the limits of the number of things your comm can coordinate. If it's actually important what processing or programming is located on each piece of computational hardware, then obviously micromanagement increases beyond the complexity threshold that I am willing to deal with.

-Frank

I have actually no idea what you have in mind specifically. Could you outline somehow how you would balance the whole thing? How do you define "number of entities that your comlink can manage?".
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Serbitar)
I have actually no idea what you have in mind specifically. Could you outline somehow how you would balance the whole thing? How do you define "number of entities that your comlink can manage?".

Sure. The number one balance problem in Shadowrun hacking is something that we shall call the "Agent Smith Problem" - in reference to a movie that references Shadowrun, thereby going full circle. Here's the Agent Smith Problem:

Agents are a Hacker's answer to Spirits, Sprites, or Drones. And like the others in the game, Agents are limited in number. Unfortunately, while Spirits or Sprites are limited to inviolate factors such as attributes, and even Drones are very meaningfully limited by space and cash flow, the fact is that the limiting factor on Agents is apparently processing capacity. Agents take up computer memory alone, which is a factor so readily available that the rules do not bother to even measure it. Indeed, parallel processing is available in practically limitless quantities.

There is literally no meaningful limit to the number of Agent copies that can exist at one time. You can have one on your commlink, another on your coffee machine, another on your credstick, another in your car, another in your helmet, another in your olfactory booster, etc. without limit or sanity. If each Agent can accomplish anything (and as long as programs like Medic and Attack exist, they can), then there is no limit to what one Hacker can accomplish.

And there is no limit to what the corporations can accomplish either. Recall that you can keep an Agent prowling out of your wristwatch, and the mainframes in Shiawase central are essentially just thousands or millions of wristwatches networked together. If IC exists at all, it might as well be a cascading horde of thousands or millions of Agents each trying to get lucky with a low rating Attack - dumping your ass out of the 'trix as soon as the tenth-part of the Smith core gets even a single action.

Obviously, that can't be how it works.

----

So how does it work?

Well, that's where the limits of the commlink's subscription comes in. Sure, there are an infinite number of Agent programs available. But they only do what they are told, and they are only told to do things when your commlink has an open window of communication with them.

So if you are benefitting from a lot of Agents, you experience slowdown because you are "running" extra programs. Even though those Agents are physically located on other computers (thr milk freshometer in your refirgerator, for example). Similarly, the mainframes at Shiawase have virtually unlimited processing power in total, but have a limited coordination power against any specific portion of the net.

---

Running Trucks Through the Rules:

Obviously, in order to get more network action you could jolly well run a better system. But the other way to get more accomplished is to throw down a second Hacker. Every additional reference frame comes with an entirely new set of maximum subscriptions, so having even a weak hacker backing you up is a potential launching pad for Agents, allowing secondary characters and security hackers to provide a very real benefit.

While that could be construed as abuse, I actually like it. It encourages people to hack with the whole team on major hacks.

-Frank
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
If each Agent can accomplish anything (and as long as programs like Medic and Attack exist, they can), then there is no limit to what one Hacker can accomplish.

You do realize that only Agents loaded in your Persona travel with it?

So, unless those independent Agents leave their node and enter the same as you do, they are twiddling thumbs... the only thing they can do is the medic trick.
Serbitar
Personally I do not see a problem with lots of agents on the hackers side. For me, hacking is all about stealth. Once you involve lots of agents, they will find you and can just shut down the host.

The main problem with agents is on the corps side. How to prevent them from ahving a gazillion agents in their security nodes?

@Frank
My problem with your conception is: It is a must that some nodes can have connections to hundred or thousands of other nodes at the same time. Matrix cafes work that way, databases work that way and so on. So any restrictions that are below this limit are not really helpful.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Serbitar)
@Frank
My problem with your conception is: It is a must that some nodes can have connections to hundred or thousands of other nodes at the same time. Matrix cafes work that way, databases work that way and so on. So any restrictions that are below this limit are not really helpful.

OK, now I'm confused. Nodes can connect to as many locations as they want. Indeed, in a wireless world it is entirely possible that a particular node will be within range to accept signals from thousands of devices.

The limitation is only on how many programs you can orchestrate and simultaneously command. So while there is doubtless a Track program running somewhere, if it exceeds your personal commlink's limits it is not running for you.

So long as there is a limit on how many programs are running within the conceptual space of any particular reference frame, it's all good. The Matrix has topology, not topography. Each acting party has a limit of how many programs they can act with at any given time. And that's the only limit you need, in addition to being the only limit you could possibly enforce.

-Frank
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
OK, now I'm confused. Nodes can connect to as many locations as they want.

The RAW limits active connections to Systemx2...
Konsaki
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Jan 28 2007, 03:33 AM)
OK, now I'm confused. Nodes can connect to as many locations as they want.

The RAW limits active connections to Systemx2...

I would wave that for stationary servers, IE anything that's big enough to have to have a server rack, or else you wouldnt be able to have matrix websites worth a damn.
For commlinks and other moble devices, yeah, that rule stands, IMO.
Serbitar
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Jan 28 2007, 02:33 AM)

OK, now I'm confused. Nodes can connect to as many locations as they want. Indeed, in a wireless world it is entirely possible that a particular node will be within range to accept signals from thousands of devices.

The limitation is only on how many programs you can orchestrate and simultaneously command. So while there is doubtless a Track program running somewhere, if it exceeds your personal commlink's limits it is not running for you.

So long as there is a limit on how many programs are running within the conceptual space of any particular reference frame, it's all good. The Matrix has topology, not topography. Each acting party has a limit of how many programs they can act with at any given time. And that's the only limit you need, in addition to being the only limit you could possibly enforce.

-Frank

Then what is the difference between having a track programm run for you by 1000 nodes you are connected with (which seems not OK in your interpretation) and 1000 nodes connecting to you for database access (which seems to be OK in your interpretation)? Both are just interactions.
I dont really get the difference.
Especially if you say that you give all these 1000 nodes the same orders. Thats just like giving orders to one node and forwarding it to all the others.

Maybe I am not really getting your interpretation.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
Then what is the difference between having a track programm run for you by 1000 nodes you are connected with (which seems not OK in your interpretation) and 1000 nodes connecting to you for database access (which seems to be OK in your interpretation)? Both are just interactions.


The point is that it doesn't matter how many nodes are running the Track program. The Track is "being run", and if it's one of the programs that you are currently directing, you get the benefit of perhaps knowing where another datatrail is originating from in realspace.

If you allow it to make a difference where and how that Track is running, then yes, noone can hide anything and the entire Track action is just a formality. People will Agent Smith their Track actions onto a thousand nodes and instantly pinpoint any datatrail.

But if it doesn't matter, then it... doesn't matter.

---

In short, the matrix is like a bar. There's lots of boozes (programs) available, and you can pour them into your glass at any time. But you have a limited number of hands (system limits on program running), so the fact that all the different booze is all available doesn't actually fill up your glass any faster.

Now if you had a second bartender, you could actually hold another set of taps and fill up your glass twice as fast. And whether that was a good idea would depend upon how skillful the other bartender was.

---

Example: Jack-O is a hacker running a 5/5/5/5 modified commlink filled with illegal modifications that allow him to spoof his datatrail and mimic other commlinks and hop onto other peoples' networks. He's currently standing in a Taco Temple, which means that he is completely surrounded by nodes, PANs, and computational resources.
There is nothing stopping him from putting copies of his programs on any or all of the nodes in this establishment, and indeed he is even now Editting the afternoon statement "Good Afternoon and Welcome to Taco Temple. Are you prepared to sacrifice your taste buds on the Altar of Flavor?" into something obscene so that visitors to this establishment will be confronted with Elf porn twenty minutes from now.
However, there is a System limit on how many programs he can tap into and use simultaneously. If he exceeds his System of 5, his Response will decrease. So while he can load Agents galore into all the nodes around him (and he will), he probably isn't going to be personally benefitting from more than 5 programs each IP.

Jack-O is currently running:

Stealth
Analyze
Edit
Scan
Spoof

So he can't actually have the Agents on the various other nodes do anything without dropping some of his programs or experiencing slow down.

-Frank
Konsaki
Frank...
I can see and understand bits and peices of that entire thing but I cant wrap my head around it all, the last section especially.

Agents, when ran outside of the Hacker's personna, run off of pre-set instructions. IE. I could tell Agent 1 to wait 20 minutes then change File 1 (the Welcome sign) out with File 2 (Elf Pr0n) which was loaded with the agent. Then abbandon the node to come back to the commlink.

The hacker could hack in, drop off the agent, then go on his merry way and the agent will perform the desired tasks, based off if it's stats pass the required tests.
cetiah
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Jan 27 2007, 09:27 PM)
QUOTE
Then what is the difference between having a track programm run for you by 1000 nodes you are connected with (which seems not OK in your interpretation) and 1000 nodes connecting to you for database access (which seems to be OK in your interpretation)? Both are just interactions.


The point is that it doesn't matter how many nodes are running the Track program. The Track is "being run", and if it's one of the programs that you are currently directing, you get the benefit of perhaps knowing where another datatrail is originating from in realspace.

If you allow it to make a difference where and how that Track is running, then yes, noone can hide anything and the entire Track action is just a formality. People will Agent Smith their Track actions onto a thousand nodes and instantly pinpoint any datatrail.

But if it doesn't matter, then it... doesn't matter.


I think I understood everything quoted above, and agree with it, and I don't get any of the other stuff starting with the bar analogy.

But if I understand you properly, you're pretty much saying that it's the TASK of running the trace system that's important to know at the "player level" and the specific method of how that task is achieved doesn't matter. We could say the Trace is being run at such a high rating because my hacker has an awesome program, or we could say its because he has thousands of little virtual-drones searching for you, or we could say it's because he's subscribed to some kind of pre-paid wireless P.I. services, or we could say he has a wireless connection to God that is telling him where you are. The point is that there are any number of ways to justify how a Trace is run because the act of "running a Trace action" is just an abstract way of describing other stuff going on in the setting. Your character wouldn't be running a Trace action, but would have other terms and processes to describe what he is doing.

I can't tell if this is actually what you're describing, or just bias from my own interpretation of how agents should work because I've been making this case for Firewalls on other threads lately.

Are we on the same page or reading two completely different texts?
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (cetiah)
But if I understand you properly, you're pretty much saying that it's the TASK of running the trace system that's important to know at the "player level" and the specific method of how that task is achieved doesn't matter. We could say the Trace is being run at such a high rating because my hacker has an awesome program, or we could say its because he has thousands of little virtual-drones searching for you, or we could say it's because he's subscribed to some kind of pre-paid wireless P.I. services, or we could say he has a wireless connection to God that is telling him where you are. The point is that there are any number of ways to justify how a Trace is run because the act of "running a Trace action" is just an abstract way of describing other stuff going on in the setting. Your character wouldn't be running a Trace action, but would have other terms and processes to describe what he is doing.

I can't tell if this is actually what you're describing, or just bias from my own interpretation of how agents should work because I've been making this case for Firewalls on other threads lately.

Are we on the same page or reading two completely different texts?

Exactly. And it is that task that is limited in what you can juggle simultaneously.

-Frank
Serbitar
But agian, why can you handle (direct, benefit, whatever) only 6 connections to 6 trace actions but can handle (direct,benefit) 1000 Database connections at a time (which is a necessity for any working computer world)?
What hinders you from giving 1000 agents the same order? Certainly this can not be restricted in any way. The point of agents is that you give them very simple orders and they do very complex task, giving you back very simple results. Its not like your node has to do anything to keep the agent going if it is running on another node.

You seem to avoid that point.
cetiah
QUOTE (Serbitar @ Jan 28 2007, 12:50 PM)
But agian, why can you handle (direct, benefit, whatever) only 6 connections to 6 trace actions but can handle (direct,benefit) 1000 Database connections at a time (which is a necessity for any working computer world)?
What hinders you from giving 1000 agents the same order? Certainly this can not be restricted in any way. The point of agents is that you give them very simple orders and they do very complex task, giving you back very simple results. Its not like your node has to do anything to keep the agent going if it is running on another node.

You seem to avoid that point.

Because the rules are mostly concerned with what a character can do, not how he does it. It's like rolling Unarmed Combat. Do we really need to know the exact vector and force behind your uppercut, or whether or not there was an uppcut at all? Before or after the dice are rolled, depending on play style, the GM or player will describe the event how they wish.

What hinders a player from saying "I kick him in the gut 10 times" vs "I kick him in the gut"? As long as its one roll to hit, and one roll to damage, it works within the context of the rules, right? If players and GMs want to be more lenient in what they allow for description, the rules don't have a problem with that.
Rotbart van Dainig
Only that kind of abstraction layer hasn't anything to do with SR4 matrix rules.

It's not a houserule, is't pretty much a complete rewrite... in which case, everything goes.
Serbitar
QUOTE (cetiah @ Jan 28 2007, 07:13 PM)

What hinders a player from saying "I kick him in the gut 10 times" vs "I kick him in the gut"?  As long as its one roll to hit, and one roll to damage, it works within the context of the rules, right?  If players and GMs want to be more lenient in what they allow for description, the rules don't have a problem with that.

Granularity. You have to decide on which level ob abstraction you are on. Once you have a system where you model single kicks, you can not prevent somebody from doing 10 kicks in a row.
Once you model agents, you can not prevent somebody from ordering arround 100 angents.

The only thing you can do it model the effectiveness of 100 agents vs 1 agent. And that is the path I am using in my house rules.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
Once you model agents, you can not prevent somebody from ordering arround 100 angents.


Of course you can. The Agent is an abstraction. And what i is, is a set of tasks that are being conducted under the direction of your commlink. Whether it's a network of 1000 minor processes running on 1000 nodes or a single monolithic computer program running on your own commlink does not matter.

The game does not have rules for processor speeds or memory, we literally have no idea how many parallels are needed to run each individual process. If you introduce such rules (for example, the "one agent can run per device in yur PAN" that you seem to take as given), then yes, the game can immediately and easily be broken just by stacking more devices on your back.

But there's no reason to add that rule. The game makes no guarantees or assumptions about where any particular program "is", and as long as you continue to handwave that point, things work fine.

QUOTE
But agian, why can you handle (direct, benefit, whatever) only 6 connections to 6 trace actions but can handle (direct,benefit) 1000 Database connections at a time (which is a necessity for any working computer world)?


Because the six trace actions are each running through 1000 database connections. Or something. Honestly, who cares?

-Frank
Serbitar
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Jan 28 2007, 08:11 PM)
The Agent is an abstraction. And what i is, is a set of tasks that are being conducted under the direction of your commlink.

That is excatly what an Agent is not doing. It is not under the direction of your comlink if it is running on another node. It is, by design desicion, independent. It even runs if you shut down your commlink, go away, and come back later to gather the results of teh agents task.

Thats the whole point of agents.
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