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Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
The game makes no guarantees or assumptions about where any particular program "is"

You obviously must own a different version of SR4, then.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Serbitar)
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Jan 28 2007, 08:11 PM)
The Agent is an abstraction. And what i is, is a set of tasks that are being conducted under the direction of your commlink.

That is excatly what an Agent is not doing. It is not under the direction of your comlink if it is running on another node. It is, by design desicion, independent. It even runs if you shut down your commlink, go away, and come back later to gather the results of teh agents task.

Thats the whole point of agents.

That intent may exist, but it's not explicitly stated, and implementing that would be completely fucking broken. So I don't particularly care.

Basically Serbitar, you are coming from the standpoint of insisting that the Agent Smith Problem is a reality and unstoppable tactic, and then confronting alternate interpretations on the grounds that they don't allow the Agent Smith Problem to overrun the world. I can't understand why you would want to do that.

--

Yes, I freely grant that if you allow people to run an arbitrary number of Agents then the game is completely broken. Traces overrun all stealth instantly, unlimited IC comes to kill player characters, and Administrator Access is granted to any Hacker in one round. Right, we acknowledge this.

But it's predicated on the idea that you can run an unlimited number of Agents just by having an unlimited number of commlinks duct taped together. And that's not a given under the RAW of the SR4 rulebook. It's broken, it's dumb, it'd unnecessary, and I have no idea why you cling to this notion like grim death.

-Frank
Konsaki
QUOTE (BBB pg228)
If you wish for your agent to operate in the Matrix independently, you must load it on a particular node separate from your persona. The agent will continue to operate in the Matrix even if your persona goes offline. In this case, the agent doesn’t count toward your persona’s active program limits like running programs do, but it does count as a subscriber toward your subscription limit (see p. 212).


This tells us that an agent CAN run independantly with pre-set tasks even if the owning personna is offline.
What is stopping a hacker from performing the agent smith scene? The fact that the target node will notice and shut down to protect itself.
cetiah
QUOTE (Konsaki)
This tells us that an agent CAN run independantly with pre-set tasks even if the owning personna is offline.


So do your hackers go on every run with 1000 drones fighting by the hacker's side? Or even instead of the hacker? It's the same concept.
Serbitar
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Jan 28 2007, 09:35 PM)


Yes, I freely grant that if you allow people to run an arbitrary number of Agents then the game is completely broken. Traces overrun all stealth instantly, unlimited IC comes to kill player characters, and Administrator Access is granted to any Hacker in one round. Right, we acknowledge this.

But it's predicated on the idea that you can run an unlimited number of Agents just by having an unlimited number of commlinks duct taped together. And that's not a given under the RAW of the SR4 rulebook. It's broken, it's dumb, it'd unnecessary, and I have no idea why you cling to this notion like grim death.

-Frank

Because agents that work like this are a reality. Agents have pseudo intelligence by themselves, they are designed to work independently. In 2070 we will have them (in realityeven sooner). And any matrix rules worth their salt will have to find a way to cope with them.

At least thats what I am trying to do.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Konsaki)
What is stopping a hacker from performing the agent smith scene? The fact that the target node will notice and shut down to protect itself.


If the only defense against a Denial of Service Attack is shutting down, then Hackers have already won.

QUOTE (Serbitar)
Because agents that work like this are a reality.


How they work is fluff, not game mechanics. Honestly, what's going on in "reality" isn't even important from a game mechanical perspective because there's a VR overlay.

QUOTE
And any matrix rules worth their salt will have to find a way to cope with them.


I favor "abstracting the number of specific programs and the amount of processing power being used" myself. Sure, an "exploit" program probably involves having thousands or millions of separate tasks each figuring a way into your system - that's why it works at all. But allowing someone two attempts because they have "two thousands or millions of separate tasks" running is obviously crazy talk. That way lies madness.

-Frank
Rotbart van Dainig
Agents make bad hackers.
As they are limited to the ratings of the node they run on, they are just as good as the ICs running on it.

Which basically means, instead of rolling dice, you can toss a coin.
Serbitar
Well, as per RAW you just hack in with admin rights (which is quite easy even with the best nodes) and then nobody can stop you anyways. . .
Serbitar
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Jan 28 2007, 10:08 PM)

How they work is fluff, not game mechanics. Honestly, what's going on in "reality" isn't even important from a game mechanical perspective because there's a VR overlay.

Ok, lets rephrase it:
Matrix rules in a Shadowrun universe are expected to contain independently acting semi intelligent software entities (with regard to whatever abstraction layer the rules are working on) that are essentially hackers in a box, because they have been there in older editions and because they will be there in reality.


The power of these entities can be seen by looking at todays viruses, worms and trojans, which are in principle, very very dumb agents.

Thats why matrix rules worth their salt will have to deal with them and to balance them.
There are ways:
One is to say that certain actions do not get easier, or even get harder, when lots of agents/people are doing them at thesame time (like I do in my rules with perception and hacking). Another is to say that some actions will be performed in exactly the same way by each agent so that the result for 1 agent is exactly the same as for 10 agents as there is no "randomness" (an example would be tracing). I think that this is the way to go.

But thats just my opinion (and I obviously like it because it is my idea).


@Rotbart:

That works for Agent vs IC combat. But what about tracing, data search and other things that Frank is talking about?
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Serbitar)
Thats why matrix rules worth their salt will have to deal with them and to balance them.


That's all very circular though. You look at things one way and then demand that the rules also look at them the same way to be worth anything because that's how things are being looked at - but one could just as easily look at things another way and handle them differently as befits the different perspective.

QUOTE (Serbitar)
Another is to say that some actions will be performed in exactly the same way by each agent so that the result for 1 agent is exactly the same as for 10 agents as there is no "randomness" (an example would be tracing).


If you treated every single copy of an Agent exactly the same way as a copy of a Persona in a different node, that particular proble would vanish. You'd simply treat the Agent as having a System equal to its rating and set it free along the tides of the Matrix, free to exist in ultiple nodes yet only actually acting in one per combat phase. And that would be fine.

Of course, you'd still have characters with effectively limitless Medic Actions and passive scanning, tracing, and encryption good enough that the effectiveness of characters would far exceed what most people would regard as reasonable (as well as virtually excluding anything but Black IC from seriously impacting PCs.

Limits on organizational effectiveness are far superior, since a limit on Agent Identity simply translates the Agent Smith Problem into a factor of wallet size. That is, a brand new Agent is really quite affordable, so the limit of one action per Agent identity is still functionally meaningless in the large bank account scenario.

-Frank
Serbitar
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Jan 28 2007, 10:37 PM)


That's all very circular though. You look at things one way and then demand that the rules also look at them the same way to be worth anything because that's how things are being looked at - but one could just as easily look at things another way and handle them differently as befits the different perspective.

Yes it is. I say:

A) "I want agents" (the way I defined them above).

And I say

B) "I want a working matrix system, that makes both hacking and defending against hacking possible".

If you disregard either A) or B) my reasoning is not appropriate any more.

But matrix RAW has even more severe problems:

- even a single agents being better/equal to a maxed hacker
- ruling everything with admin access
- nonexistant baseline
- extremely underpowered TMs
- AR-VR problems
- physically driving / rigging problems (see active drone thread)
- device ratings
- encryption
- and more

At the moment we are not having problems with agents, we are having problems with basic rules. At the moment, matrix RAW is only playable by turning your brain off and hope that your GM will fix it somehow, or playin an extremely casual rail road style way. Very bad in a player vs environment setting like Shadowrun.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Serbitar)
But what about tracing, data search and other things that Frank is talking about?

IIRC, both happen node-by-node, too... in which case, Agents are randomly useless.
Catharz Godfoot
Frank, that was a wonderful use of ubiquitous computing theory to justify a hacking system based on game balance rather than pure realism.

Now I can even [almost] understand why encryption is so damn' awful in SR4, because it's all using wirelessly broadcasted public keys to access data at arbitrary external adresses.

And, of course, hidden mode just means you're using Tor.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Catharz Godfoot)
And, of course, hidden mode just means you're using Tor.

..please, don't mind me - I'm going to scream a while.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Serbitar)
But matrix RAW has even more severe problems:


Yeah. But a lot of those problems are fundamentally cost/benefit problems that could be solved by tweaking numbers up or down. The Agent Smith Problem is a conceptual one in which your very idea of what the Matrix is like is causing it to break.

Technomancers are weak and unplayably inferior because the costs for their powers are so much higher than what those abilities are apparently worth according to equivalent character types that there's nothing nice to say about them. But the concept is salvageable. And quite easily. You just decrease the costs or increase the powers and move on.

But your concept of the Agent - where it provides the benefits of an acting Hacker independently of the limitations of your character or system - that's not salvageable. The very idea is broken a priori. It doesn't matter what its stats are, or how much it costs, the fact is that it uses a quantity (money) that actual actors in the setting (corporations) have essentially limitless quantities of - and uses that to get a cumulative benefit that is used in opposed conflicts.

QUOTE
A) "I want agents" (the way I defined them above).

And I say

B) "I want a working matrix system, that makes both hacking and defending against hacking possible".


I cannot accept your demands because that cannot be made balanced. Your second demand is negated by your first, because your first demand rewards people for keeping track of arbitrarily large numbers of independent variables.

Let's consider the core difficulty in your definition of an Agent:

QUOTE (Serbitar's Definition)
Matrix rules in a Shadowrun universe are expected to contain independently acting semi intelligent software entities (with regard to whatever abstraction layer the rules are working on) that are essentially hackers in a box


That's insoluable. Why? Because no possible limit can exist for how many boxes one character could use or own. Since each one is independent, and each one is self-contained within its box, the only limitation is purchasing the boxes. Essentially, you've simply taken for granted that Agents should be equivalent to Mercenary Soldiers for hacking. And further, that unlike Mercenaries (who must be fed, supplied, transported, and smuggled), that these Agents should be available in limitless quantities stored in a virtual medium that is essentially undectable and eminently transportable.

Sorry. No can do.

Your idea is incompatible with a system that is balanced or even playable. An unlimited number of Agents neccessarily requires an unlimited number of die rolls to resolve. That can't function within the context of a role playing game. You can't resolve the actions of such a scenario.

So you need to accept a different level of abstraction or you need to accept a computer system that you don't find "realistic" - because your ideal level of absatraction and ideal level of realism apparently involves people rolling dice to simulate each and every subunit of a multi-thousand unit parallel processor every time they do anything. That's just not reasonable.

-Frank
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
But your concept of the Agent - where it provides the benefits of an acting Hacker independently of the limitations of your character or system - that's not salvageable. The very idea is broken a priori.

Thanks for letting us know that the Matrix in every Edition was broken.

It's amazing how you completely fail to get the RAW, though, babbling about how System limits Programs by being the limit of simultaneous connections being handled... which are to completely different things:
While the first is about how running more Programs than System degrades your Response, the second is about having not more than Systemx2 active connections.
That your world of distributed processing power is not even remotely compatible with the way SR4 describes hardware ratings and upgrading them - no problem.

Agents not running on your System are either in active or passive Subscription:
In the first case, they count towards your Subscription limit... which is Systemx2.
In the latter, they are limited to the orders they have... which is not exactly gamebreaking either, considering that they are neither sapient nor having a Persona.
Wich means that they can't be at more than one Node at a time and do more than things on that Node... while being limited to the ratings of that Node.

Oh, and for the record of keeping people from whining how weak TMs are - there is nothing more broken than a rating 8 Sprite.
Thain
- even a single agents being better/equal to a maxed hacker

An Agent is a "hacker in a box," and at best have a Pilot 6 (¥18,000) and any given Hacking program of 6 (¥6,000). Where as a flesh-and-blood hacker should be throwing 14+ dice after their first few runs.

Yes, a ¥24,000+ Agent is better than an average starting Hacker. But any Hacker of moderate experience will own it.

- ruling everything with admin access

Admin access has control over everything in a system. This is what administrators do... Getting admin access illicitly is what hackers do. Can you say "Got Root?"

- nonexistant baseline

QUOTE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamemaster)

In role-playing games, the game master or GM is the organizer, storyteller, and arbitrator. He or she prepares the game session for the players and the characters they play (known as player characters or PCs). The GM describes the events and decides on the outcomes of players' decisions. The game master also keeps track of non-player characters (NPCs) and random encounters....


- extremely underpowered TMs

Threading. Sprites. Deep Resonance. Who needs Emergence?

- AR-VR problems

Does not compute.

- physically driving / rigging problems (see active drone thread)

Does not compute.

- device ratings

Page 214, for the twelfth bloody time... there is a big green box. They go from 1 to 6, just like everything else in the game. Have a look at the big green box or ask the guy sitting behind the cardboard screen at the end of the table. Y'know, the gamemaster.

- encryption

Umm...

p. 225, first column, ninth full paragraph: "Encryption and Decryption"
p. 226, first column, eighth full paragraph: "Encryption"
p. 225, first column, fourth full paragraph: "Decrypt"

Serbitar
QUOTE

- even a single agents being better/equal to a maxed hacker

An Agent is a "hacker in a box," and at best have a Pilot 6 (¥18,000) and any given Hacking program of 6 (¥6,000). Where as a flesh-and-blood hacker should be throwing 14+ dice after their first few runs.

Yes, a ¥24,000+ Agent is better than an average starting Hacker. But any Hacker of moderate experience will own it.

?? moderate experience? Whats are you talking about?

6/6 is the maximum a hacker will ever get in RAW +2 dice from VR + maybe some spespecialisationsr some programs.

Are these +2 dice (and thats only a maxed hacker) worth hiring a hacker instead of just looking over your agents should and instructing it what to do, while it hacks everything for you?


QUOTE

- ruling everything with admin access

Admin access has control over everything in a system. This is what administrators do... Getting admin access illicitly is what hackers do. Can you say "Got Root?"


So what? It still should not be so easy to hack into a system.

A maxed 6/6/6/6 host (and that is as good as it gets) has a chance of about 16% to find a hacker that is hacking in the long way for admin access. And then, thats it. And if you dont succeed, try again next week.

The hack in System of RAW is extremely un-flexible and an all-or-nothing thing.

QUOTE


- nonexistant baseline

QUOTE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamemaster)

In role-playing games, the game master or GM is the organizer, storyteller, and arbitrator. He or she prepares the game session for the players and the characters they play (known as player characters or PCs). The GM describes the events and decides on the outcomes of players' decisions. The game master also keeps track of non-player characters (NPCs) and random encounters....



SAM: Hey hacker can you hack in there?
Hacker: No idea, ill have to ask my GM first.
SAM: Havent you hacked into something like this before?
Hacker: Yes, but that was with a different GM.

Explanation: Concerning Real life tasks (like Jumping) we dont need exact baselines, because everybody knows what a human can approximately do (though they even give rules for jumping). Concerning the Matrix, we do NOT have a real life, day to day experience baseline. Actually things could be like this or completely different. Without rules, a hacker knows exactly nothing about how hard it is to do this and that, while a Sam definitely knows how hard it would be to jump 10 meters.

Thats why you need a baseline.

QUOTE


- extremely underpowered TMs

Threading. Sprites. Deep Resonance. Who needs Emergence?


Fine. Do the math (did you do it?). Youll find that a TM needs about 300-500 Karma to be as good a s a starting hacker. Very balanced.

QUOTE

- AR-VR problems

Does not compute.


AR people being faster than VR people, even though fluff say something different.

QUOTE

- physically driving / rigging problems (see active drone thread)

Does not compute.


Well, then read the thread again.

QUOTE

- device ratings

Page 214, for the twelfth bloody time... there is a big green box. They go from 1 to 6, just like everything else in the game. Have a look at the big green box or ask the guy sitting behind the cardboard screen at the end of the table. Y'know, the gamemaster.


THINK first, then post. I know about the ratings. And the ratings are the problem. Why buy a comlink when you have an all rating 6 credstick just sitting next to you?
Please tell me that!

QUOTE

- encryption

Umm... 

p. 225, first column, ninth full paragraph: "Encryption and Decryption"
p. 226, first column, eighth full paragraph: "Encryption"
p. 225, first column, fourth full paragraph: "Decrypt"


Come on. You want to tell me that you are not aware of the encryption problem and want to discuss with me?
Please come again when you know what you are talking about.

From all your answers I read that you have not even taken the time to get into the topic. I treat that as a personal insult. I am getting really angry when I have to read such smart ass posts. Its not like I am making things up to annoy other people.
Thain
A Hacker is sentient, and capable of making decisions. An Agent is a program, and can not improvise. The Hacker can also have a Program 6, Skill 8 (because specialties are cheap karma), Codeslinger +2, Hot-Sim bonus +2, and Edge +1-9.

That is, potentially, 19-27 dice.

------------

Probing the target takes hours. With average die rolls, hacking an Admin account into a fully secured system should take all damn night, and only if your a pretty good hacker to begin with.

Remember, the Hacker is typically acting solo. If he is pounced on by two Black IC, he is now fighting for his life (physical damage) against two opponents of comparable skill. If the Street Samurai were to face two equal opponents, solo, he would face the very real possibility of death.

However, the structure of the game is such that the Sam very rarely has such an encounter... The Hacker faces it every time they trip the alarms on a secured system. (Heck, its probably more like 2-4 Black IC and a Security Hacker).

Thus, the system is skewed a little in the Hackers favor. High Stealth, high spoof, and a high exploit... not too much different than the meat-world Adept with maximized Infiltration skills.

If probing the target is a real problem for your campaign, stop letting your players have a week to do it. Have Johnson's with deadlines measured in hours, not days.

------------

Sam: Hey hacker can you hack in there?
Hacker: Hmm... I hacked into a similar system last week, didn't I?
GM: Yeah, the Wal-Mart Net was pretty similar to the K-Mart Net, near as you can figure.
Hacker: That's what I thought. Yeah, I should be able to do it.
Sam: Cool.

Explanation: Consistency.

------------

A rating 4-6 program costs (Rating x ¥1,000)... A Complex Form costs 1 BP per rating point. So at Character Generation, a program is 1/5 the cost of a Complex Form. Did you really think the developers were ignorant of this? That no one did the math except yourself?

Technomancers can create new programs on the fly, or pump existing complex forms through the roof with a single die roll. Threading is ungodly potent.

Finally, CF's are cheap to advance with karma, advancing faster than active skills and new ones being acquired for less karma.

As both Technomancers and Hackers need to improve the same active skills, the real difference is between the rate of karma acquisition and nuyen acquisition.

True, the Technomancer splits his karma between skills and CFs, while the Hacker only needs to spend karma on skills. But, the hacker is going to begin to lag behind in improving his programs... Unless you typically hand out ¥6,000 per player per session.

------------

Rigging is superior is AR driving with Wired Reflexes. Yeah, the other guy might have 4IP's to your 3IPs... If he was glutton for punishment enough to buy Wired 3. But you have more skill, a bonus, and a lot more cash to spend pumping your vehicles stats.

Plus... your not in the damned thing when it blows up. He is.

------------

A credstick is not a commlink, don't be so deliberately obtuse.

------------

No, I am not "aware of the encryption problem," I know that you think there is a problem with the system, but I do not see one. IIRC, you take issue with the fact that a Hacker can crack most encryption in a few combat turns, at the outside, no?

I seem to recall a certain Hacker (and his agent in a box) cutting through incredible amounts of encryption in under an hour in Neuromancer... and the computers of 2070 are, without a doubt, better than the tech used in that book.

Decrypt 6 + Response 6 = 12
(Encryption 6 x 2) = 12

At 3.96 hits on average, it will take 3.03 rounds for the Hacker to break into a Encryption 6 file. Then he has to handle the IC. Then he needs to be able to understand the contents of the file.

Anything worth hiding in an Encrypt 6 file is worth writing in code too. "The umbrellas will arrive in Uganda tonight. Eagle has the football. Your mother is worried about the cat." Is absolutely meaningless to anyone not aware of the code.

QUOTE

From all your answers I read that you have not even taken the time to get into the topic. I treat that as a personal insult. I am getting really angry when I have to read such smart ass posts. Its not like I am making things up to annoy other people.


I've read this thread, I've read your arguments. I've read other threads, I've read your other arguments. I've read the rulebook. My interpretation of SR4 (and likely other systems) differs from yours... Primarily, it seems, on two fronts:

- I believe in the gamemaster
- I believe the developers knew what they were doing making adepts/samurai, hackers/technomancers, mages/mundanes, and riggers/non-riggers all capable of similar ends, by different methods, with different strengths and weaknesses.
DireRadiant
I'm playing Shadowrun.

Shadowrun has the Matrix.
There's this "Agent Smith" scenario.

Either:

The Matrix is there and working because "something" prevents the "Agent Smith" scenario from taking it down.

OR

The Matrix is there and working because no one has bothered to initiate the "Agent Smith" scenario yet.

Personally I prefer the "something" approach.
Personally I don't need to know what "something" is. I'm not going to worry about it.
If a PC want's to try and start the "Agent Smith" scenario, it's just not going to work, maybe there'll be a VR cow from space.
Serbitar
Agents:
Typically a maxed hacker has 14 dice, a maxed agent 12. Everything else is special situations and edge, which are not the norm.
Furthermore, you can directly steer an agent and just let it roll the dice, beut tell it every step. Thus, intelligence is irrelevant. A rating 6 agent is essentially a rating 6 skillwire for hacking (though in the real world skillwires exist only up to 4, maybe they had a reason for that).
So agents are comparable to maxed hackers. That is a problem.

Probing:
Probing target takes hours yes. But 99% of the time you have this time. Hacking in on the fly is for security devices like cameras and so on. Probing is for full blown matrix hosts.
Making hacking in with admin access as easy as hacking in with user access will lead to hackers always hacking in with admin access (why shouldnt they?) reducing hacking to this one dice roll.

Concerning baseline:
So you will always have to rely on remote playing your hacker by the GM? Without a baseline you will have to wait till you played through everything there is (and thus have communicated the baseline from the GM to you). How would your Sam have liked it to ask the GM "And how hard is this" for everything he does?
The lacking baseline is one, if not the most complained problem. Just use the search. Again: I am not inventing this.

TMs:
OK, short version:
A hacker gets everything there is for 130k at chargen, with the exception of rating 6 agents and rating 6 system. This he can get after the first 1-2 runs.
Then he is maxed stuff-wise. He does not have to spend anything.

A TM needs about 500 Karma to get all his mental stats and all available Complex forms at Rating 6.

QUOTE

Did you really think the developers were ignorant of this? That no one did the math except yourself?


YES!

Furthermore: A TM might have sprites (which are not better than agents with unlimited services) and might have threading. But he totally sucks in the real world. While a TM spends his first 100 Karma to at least get some CFs and does God knows with his money, the Hacker is on his way to become a Sam or something else, because he almost starts maxed in his field.

TMs are severely, totally and extremely underpowered. This was discussed numerous times on this board an proven mathematically. Consider it a fact.


Concerning VR Rigging- AR:
You get enough benefit for Wired. Wired should not be the give-all and be-all. At the moment it is. You rule in AR hacking, AR Rigging and Real world.
Fluff wise as well as balance wise, thats just wrong.


Ratings:
A credstick is a device. Every device is a node, every node can be used to run programs. The only thing hat a credstick dosent have are all the goodies like a camera and so on.

Want proof?:

QUOTE ("SR4")

You can control all sorts of Matrix-enabled devices re-
motely through the Matrix, from simple automatic security
doors and elevators to drones and agents to entire automated
factories full of robotic assemblers—virtually any device that
can be electronically accessed. Note that you must first gain ac-
cess to the device before you can control it.


All Matrix enabled devices have Access management:

QUOTE ("SR4")

Node—Any device or network that can be accessed.



So every matrix enabled thing is a node:


QUOTE ("SR4")

    In 2070, almost every device is computerized and
equipped with a wireless link—from guns to toasters to
clothing to sensors to cyberware. As a rule, assume that any
gear item that is electronic or mechanical has a wireless-en-
abled computer in it
. Even non-electronic devices without
moving parts may have a built-in computer, if it might be
useful or convenient to the user (wouldn’t you like to be able
to download and play your favorite songs on your jacket?).
The gamemaster has final determination over what items are
wireless-enabled.


QUOTE ("SR4")

    There are far too many electronics in the world of
Shadowrun for a gamemaster to keep track of their individual
Matrix attributes. Instead, each device is simply given a Device
rating. Unless it has been customized or changed in some way,
assume that each of the Matrix attributes listed above for a par-
ticular device equals its Device rating
.



QUOTE ("SR4")

    Every computerized electronic device—from commlinks
to cyberware to vidcams to mainagents—has a set of basic at-
tributes for use in certain Matrix interactions.



Conclusion: Everything in SR is a node and can run programs. No need to buy a comlink if you have credsticks lying around.


Encryption:
Well, if it is no problem for you to break even the hardest encrpytion in 9 Seconds, then why bother with encryption rules at all? For 9 Seconds?
Furthermore: Have fun making your world remotely realistic with no encrpytion. Better get some hard currency fast!


QUOTE

- I believe in the gamemaster

SR4 is Player vs Setting. The players are trying to beat a setting (thats what they do in a normal run). If they have to ask the GM for everything thats not going to work.
SR is not a fantasy railroad game.

QUOTE

- I believe the developers knew what they were doing  making adepts/samurai, hackers/technomancers, mages/mundanes, and riggers/non-riggers all capable of similar ends, by different methods, with different strengths and weaknesses.


The developers are only humans. And for my taste they dont use enough math when making rules. How many mathematicians and statisticians are with the developers?

QUOTE

I've read this thread, I've read your arguments. I've read other threads, I've read your other arguments. I've read the rulebook. My interpretation of SR4 (and likely other systems) differs from yours...


Concerning the topics discussed now, I gave no arguments. I just mentioned the issues. I gave the arguments in about two dozen threads during the last 1-2 years.
hobgoblin
ok kids, had your fun?

how about we all wait with final judgment on the matrix rules until unwired is out?
Thain
Okay, I am offically going to bow out of this now. Serbitar's style of play is clearly incompatable with mine. I don't expect the rules to cover everything, nor can I get past his far to strict literal interpertation of the written text. (Credsticks have access, nodes are acessed, thus credsticks are cyberdecks. WTF?)

But, fundamentally, the differnce is very clear... and likely insurmountable. I do not think that SR is "player vs. gamemaster," because that implies that one or the other can "win" and that they are opponents.

If Serbitar thinks this, I am not going to be able to convince him otherwise.
Serbitar
QUOTE (Thain @ Jan 29 2007, 04:44 PM)

But, fundamentally, the differnce is very clear... and likely insurmountable. I do not think that SR is "player vs. gamemaster," because that implies that one or the other can "win" and that they are opponents.

I did not say player vs gamemaster. I said player vs setting. Thats a difference.

Example: The GM makes up a setting, including X security guards, drones, a floor plan, a matrix host, a security schedule and some wards. They players have to steel something, they have to beat the setting.
The GM does not want to win, it is his job to simulate the world as good as possible.

SR = player vs. setting + RP
Serbitar
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
ok kids, had your fun?

how about we all wait with final judgment on the matrix rules until unwired is out?

Because I play SR now?
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Serbitar)
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Jan 29 2007, 04:40 PM)
ok kids, had your fun?

how about we all wait with final judgment on the matrix rules until unwired is out?

Because I play SR now?

you do? eek.gif silly.gif
Serbitar
OK, you got me there, was just joking. I dont have friends and can therefore never play SR.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Serbitar)
Typically a maxed hacker has 14 dice, a maxed agent 12.

Only if the Agent runs on a Node with Response 6.
Consulting the Device Rating table tells us that this is rather unlikely.
Serbitar
Of course you have to use the patented "hacker in a box" commlink with 6/6/6/6 rating that the hacker would also need (well, or a credstick). You can even run a couple of them on the commlink.
Rotbart van Dainig
Suer, that means that your commlink is pretty secure... well, at least until something with Resonance shows up.

But to actually do something on their own, those Agentes have to leave their expensive Nodes...
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Thain)
Did you really think the developers were ignorant of this? That no one did the math except yourself?


Actually, Serbitar is right here. The Unwired Team (which I am not on) is currently hashing out the major major problems of the Matrix section of the basic book. Some of the problems Serbitar is going off about are fairly minor, but others are extremely important.

Let's do a run-down on the actual mathematical errors and mistakes that permeate those rules:

  • Inconsistent Dice Pools. Ouch. The rules instruct you to roll Logic + Hacking as your hacking dice pool on pages 110, 124, and 223. They tell you to roll Program + Logic on pages 221, 223, and 224. That's a huge problem.
  • Shitty Technomancers Making a Technomancer who is any good at all costs all your BP and your next three hundred Karma. Sorry, that was just bad planning. Sprites are great, and they don't cost anything except your free time, but they don't make up for having crappy matrix attributes and such limited access to programs that you can't even attempt most tasks.
  • Credsticks A Credstick is supposed to be Response 1 / System 1 / Signal 1 / Firewall 6. But as written it has all Matrix attributes of 6 and can be used to haxxor your enemies once root access has been gained.
  • Agent Smith It is highly implied that Serbitar's impression of how Agents are supposed to function is correct - and that's broken beyond belief as has already been shown repeatedly in this very thread.


Personally, I don't care if someone with a synaptic booster 3 can flap around through AR faster than he can pump out commands in VR. I could come up with a dozen explanations of why that might be the casse (sample: "Having your computer run the ASIST Override uses up some of the system response, which you only notice if you can otherwise type in commands very quickly"). I don't care if Encryption is presently owned by decryption (that has been true at various stages of the encryption arms race, maybe someone finally found the weakness in public key that allows it to be solved in small amounts of linear time). But outright contradictions (such as the skill thing), blatant abuses (the credstick commlink), and infinite power loops (Agent Smith) are no good.

Those actually have to be solved.

QUOTE (Rothbart)
It's amazing how you completely fail to get the RAW, though


No. I "get" the RAW. I get the contradictions, the discrepencies, and the loopholes. I'm trying to fucking solve some problems. I talk with the authors. I know damn well the state that this part of the rules is in, and it's not pretty.

-Frank
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
I'm trying to fucking solve some problems.

And you are finally making the same mistake as Serbitar - trying to solve problems that aren't.

Sadly, it's pretty much the same with the FAQ - it's clarifications actually contradict the RAW and only cause more confusion.
(Programs loaded into Agents always run, but count towards the Agent's System, not the Node's; Pilot per RAW is generic and explicitly allowed for Devices;...)


The main problems of the SR4 Matrix actually are the missing separation of connection from subscription and the Response drop.
Those rules are implemented for small scale devices, yet apply to servers as well - that doesn't work.

Those problems are inherent to the unified rating system of the SR4 Matrix.
But - the device rating table states that it only is a quick reference, so one should expect to do some monkeywrenching when using those values.
Serbitar
The main problem with device rating at the moment is, that System can not be higher than Response.
If you want high System, you need high Response and POW you have a full blown super host right there (like in the case of a credstick).
Just throw the rule out the window and you are done.

And please, that and response as well as connection issues are NOT the main problem of the SR4 matrix rules. That is ONE of the problems. Stating that there are no problems is just ignorance. Where are all the matrix threads coming from if there are no major problems?

You could go on and start to explain why every issue on my list is not a problem, instead of just stating that there are no problems.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Serbitar)
Just throw the rule out the window and you are done.

Making the 4 Node ratings truely independant would work, indeed - up until now, System is just a synonym for Response.
But that requires an Errata, especially concerning what those values influence.

QUOTE (Serbitar)
And please, that and response as well as connection issues are NOT the main problem of the SR4 matrix rules.

They may not be what you perceive as the main problem of the matrix rules, but they are the main problem of the SR4 matrix, as they affect the very layout in a way it can't work:

The matrix rules, as they are now, work only for SOHO-usage.

QUOTE (Serbitar)
Where are all the matrix threads coming from if there are no major problems?

Because for some people, a null pointer points to zero? wink.gif

QUOTE (Serbitar)
You could go on and start to explain why every issue on my list is not a problem, instead of just stating that there are no problems.

Which one?
Serbitar
This one

QUOTE

- even a single agents being better/equal to a maxed hacker
- ruling everything with admin access
- nonexistant baseline
- extremely underpowered TMs
- AR-VR problems (Wired 3 > VR hacking)
- physically driving / rigging problems (Wired 3 > VR Rigging)
- device ratings
- encryption
- and more



Although, thats not a complete list, just what I had in my head while writing the post.

I could add:
- subscription problems (addin unecessary dice rolls)
- nonexistant scanning IC rules (though they are quite important for security)
- relay host problems (the FAQ actually made things more confusing)
- logic not used in hacking / the defaulting problem
- pilot/system/agent confusion/connection (we had a thread about that recently)
- abuse of spoof/edit by spoofing/editing system commands
- hackers are maxed very early
Thain
Did I miss a page in the core rulebook, or is the gamemaster no longer allowed to make decisions in SR4?

Inconsistent Dice Pools.
Yeah, but this was simply sloppy editing, and that is what errata is for.

Shitty Technomancers
I wholly disagree with the whole premise that Technomancers suck. My Technomancer certainly didn't suck for long, with a mere 400BP/50K I was equalto the starting decker (we compared sheets); and I had Threading. That said if upcoming books increase their power I am not going to complain! grinbig.gif

Credsticks
If their are actual gamemasters who allow credstick to be used as 6/6/6/6 cyberdecks, then they've got other problems.

Agent Smith
Agents are only as good as the node they are on. If a player does try to pull the 1,001 Agents trick, the gamemaster should feel free to say "No."
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Thain)
Yeah, but this was simply sloppy editing, and that is what errata is for.


Actually, it's what Unwired is for. The Matrix Rules are going to be given a bigger, better, hopefully more thought out treatment in Unwired. When that happens, certain issues like "What the hell is your dice pool?" should get ironed out.

Which is the point of this conversation. Serbitar and I are essentially arguing what the Matrix rules should be - and it wouldn't surprise me at all if this was reflected in the ultimate text of Unwired if Serbitar and myself could get on the same page.

-Frank
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Serbitar)
- even a single agents being better/equal to a maxed hacker

It's still the same - on a high rating Node, perhaps.

QUOTE (Serbitar)
- ruling everything with admin access

Got root?

QUOTE (Serbitar)
- nonexistant baseline

Care to elaborate?

QUOTE (Serbitar)
- extremely underpowered TMs

Please tell that to Mr. Sparky - the nearly unstoppable Fault Sprite.

QUOTE (Serbitar)
- AR-VR problems (Wired 3 > VR hacking)
- physically driving / rigging problems (Wired 3 > VR Rigging)

Not again. It's the most refreshing thing about SR4 to see that finally, people other than pure riggers or pure hackers can do something on the road and in the 'trix.
And no, having more actions does not make up those other boni.

QUOTE (Serbitar)
- device ratings

They are guidelines.

QUOTE (Serbitar)
- encryption

Yeah, the good old double-edged sword.

QUOTE (Serbitar)
- subscription problems (addin unecessary dice rolls)

Subscription, as it is now, doesn't need any dice rolls... it just keeps the matrix from working.

QUOTE (Serbitar)
- nonexistant scanning IC rules (though they are quite important for security)

..you set an intervall as a GM.
And the try again rules take care of the rest.

QUOTE (Serbitar)
- relay host problems (the FAQ actually made things more confusing)

Like I said - the FAQ conserning Matrix rules is confusing at best, and contradicting the RAW at worst.
In this case, it makes sense for wireless connections, though.

QUOTE (Serbitar)
- logic not used in hacking / the defaulting problem

It's rather a decision than a problem.

QUOTE (Serbitar)
- pilot/system/agent confusion/connection (we had a thread about that recently)

Well, you were confused indeed.

QUOTE (Serbitar)
- abuse of spoof/edit by spoofing/editing system commands

AFAIS, per RAW, you only can spoof Pilots.

QUOTE (Serbitar)
- hackers are maxed very early

That's not a specialty of hackers.
And, not, getting two skillgroups to 6 is quite costy.
hobgoblin
frank, what your doing i have attempted before. and just like arguing guns with some others on this forum, its a bit like trying to swim up a waterfall...
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
QUOTE (Thain)
Yeah, but this was simply sloppy editing, and that is what errata is for.

Actually, it's what Unwired is for.

If you plan to change core rules, you better stick to Errata.
Otherwise, the whole SR4 idea falls apart - you know, the one about not contradicting the main book in supplements, just adding stuff.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
QUOTE (Thain)
Yeah, but this was simply sloppy editing, and that is what errata is for.

Actually, it's what Unwired is for.

If you plan to change core rules, you better stick to Errata.
Otherwise, the whole SR4 idea falls apart - you know, the one about not contradicting the main book in supplements, just adding stuff.

have they ever pledged that?

while this is fanpro, not fasa, its classical that the matrix supplemental books add something that breaks with old main book rules. alltho nothing more so then what VR2.0 did back in SR2 wink.gif
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
QUOTE (Thain)
Yeah, but this was simply sloppy editing, and that is what errata is for.

Actually, it's what Unwired is for.

If you plan to change core rules, you better stick to Errata.
Otherwise, the whole SR4 idea falls apart - you know, the one about not contradicting the main book in supplements, just adding stuff.

That's what, for example, I did with the extra Spirits in Street Magic.

Unfortunately, the basic rules in the Matrix section are contradictory. You can't actually move forward without contradicting the RAW. It's not something that I am particularly happy about.

Something has got to give. You can't just throw in more computer stuff that is roughly on par power wise with the stuff that already exists - the stuff that exists is itself conflictory.

-Frank
Konsaki
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
QUOTE (Thain)
Yeah, but this was simply sloppy editing, and that is what errata is for.

Actually, it's what Unwired is for.

If you plan to change core rules, you better stick to Errata.
Otherwise, the whole SR4 idea falls apart - you know, the one about not contradicting the main book in supplements, just adding stuff.

I agree, this is an errata situation.

I have talked with Synner a while back about 'fixing' the matrix rules in the BBB and he basicly told me, 'No'. This makes me think that even with an errata, only minor things would get fixed...
Serbitar
Unwired will not contradict SR4 BBB. Both Adam and Synner and Rob have stated that several times.
deek
QUOTE (Thain)
Did I miss a page in the core rulebook, or is the gamemaster no longer allowed to make decisions in SR4?

Inconsistent Dice Pools.
Yeah, but this was simply sloppy editing, and that is what errata is for.

Shitty Technomancers
I wholly disagree with the whole premise that Technomancers suck. My Technomancer certainly didn't suck for long, with a mere 400BP/50K I was equalto the starting decker (we compared sheets); and I had Threading. That said if upcoming books increase their power I am not going to complain! grinbig.gif

Credsticks
If their are actual gamemasters who allow credstick to be used as 6/6/6/6 cyberdecks, then they've got other problems.

Agent Smith
Agents are only as good as the node they are on. If a player does try to pull the 1,001 Agents trick, the gamemaster should feel free to say "No."

This has been a pretty active discussion...I'd like to add a couple thoughts.

The inconsistent dice pools, I don't see as inconsistent...I mean, (and forgive me for not putting a page reference here), if you are physically accessing a "computer", then you use Logic + Program Rating. If you are accessing it via AR/VR, if you have proper access, it becomes your Computer + Program Rating...if its an illegal access, it turns to Hacking + Program Rating. Yes, there are multiple options, but after that, I think everything below each tier is consistent.

TMs...well, I have been running a campaign for about a year, and I still disallow them as characters, so I am personally not worried about that...and really have no opinion either way as I really have just always skipped those areas.

Credsticks...even using a Device Rating 6, what all can an agent/hacker do from within a credstick node? Maybe its just because it has never come up in my games, but a credstick is not a commlink, so there is only a limited amount of actions an icon can take when in that node. View logs, initiate transactions, etc...to me, that is like a hacker carrying a 6/6/6/6 coffee machine with him on runs...it just doesn't make sense as all devices, even rated the same, don't have all the capabilities as a comm.

Agents...again, I must admit that none of my hackers I run for have even used one so far in a year's worth of gaming. While funtionally the same as IC, I don't think I would allow a hacker to load an agent to all nodes...as some just would not accept it, even as an admin action. I mean, IC are different from agents...so I just don't see a hacker being able to load and start running 1,000 agents...just the act of doing that, what is like 1,000 complex actions? Assuming you even have the nuyen to purchase that many agents, in hot VR that is 5 minutes of purely loading agents...kinda ridiculous. Plus, while agents aren't completely dumb, they aren't AI either, so sending them out on other nodes and having them perform actions will require a lot of micromanagement. Say you send one out to edit a log on a remote node and it is attacked...using its own "wits", I don't see it able to react unless specifically directed, much like a spirit. So, if a spider or IC engage it in combat, I don't see it automatically defending itself or attacking...I just don't view agents as a replacement for hackers, as they don't react like a hacker...they get tasks and perform them, nothing more, nothing less...

I don't know how many people posting in this thread are coming from a true "playing" perspective...as a GM with good players, there are just a lot of things that don't come into play as some of these arguments outline...
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Jan 29 2007, 02:44 PM)
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
QUOTE (Thain)
Yeah, but this was simply sloppy editing, and that is what errata is for.

Actually, it's what Unwired is for.

If you plan to change core rules, you better stick to Errata.
Otherwise, the whole SR4 idea falls apart - you know, the one about not contradicting the main book in supplements, just adding stuff.

That's what, for example, I did with the extra Spirits in Street Magic.

I still remember, thank you. nyahnyah.gif

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Unfortunately, the basic rules in the Matrix section are contradictory.

Not really. They are not well enough defined to actually contradict themselves.
There is just on main flaw in the dependencies, and that is System.

As a rating directly derived from response, it actually doesn't serve any purpose other than a different label... while it serves as a limit to all kind of things.

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
You can't actually move forward without contradicting the RAW.

And you can't do so by contradicting it, either - elsewhere, at best.

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
Something has got to give.

Just, those are not minor changes.
It's even more than what happend to ammunition and stuff - it's more like what happended to rigging or learning... or the Medic Agent trick.
And that's quite possible within an Errata.
Serbitar
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (Serbitar)
- even a single agents being better/equal to a maxed hacker

It's still the same - on a high rating Node, perhaps.

QUOTE (Serbitar)
- ruling everything with admin access

Got root?

QUOTE (Serbitar)
- nonexistant baseline

Care to elaborate?

QUOTE (Serbitar)
- extremely underpowered TMs

Please tell that to Mr. Sparky - the nearly unstoppable Fault Sprite.

QUOTE (Serbitar)
- AR-VR problems (Wired 3 > VR hacking)
- physically driving / rigging problems (Wired 3 > VR Rigging)

Not again. It's the most refreshing thing about SR4 to see that finally, people other than pure riggers or pure hackers can do something on the road and in the 'trix.
And no, having more actions does not make up those other boni.

QUOTE (Serbitar)
- device ratings

They are guidelines.

QUOTE (Serbitar)
- encryption

Yeah, the good old double-edged sword.

QUOTE (Serbitar)
- subscription problems (addin unecessary dice rolls)

Subscription, as it is now,scanning IC: doesn't need any dice rolls... it just keeps the matrix from working.

QUOTE (Serbitar)
- nonexistant scanning IC rules (though they are quite important for security)

..you set an intervall as a GM.
And the try again rules take care of the rest.

QUOTE (Serbitar)
- relay host problems (the FAQ actually made things more confusing)

Like I said - the FAQ conserning Matrix rules is confusing at best, and contradicting the RAW at worst.
In this case, it makes sense for wireless connections, though.

QUOTE (Serbitar)
- logic not used in hacking / the defaulting problem

It's rather a decision than a problem.

QUOTE (Serbitar)
- pilot/system/agent confusion/connection (we had a thread about that recently)

Well, you were confused indeed.

QUOTE (Serbitar)
- abuse of spoof/edit by spoofing/editing system commands

AFAIS, per RAW, you only can spoof Pilots.

QUOTE (Serbitar)
- hackers are maxed very early

That's not a specialty of hackers.
And, not, getting two skillgroups to 6 is quite costy.

@ Rotbart:

Agents: still we have the situation that a buyable agent equals a maxed hacker in almost every aspect. Why hire hackers? Just buy agents and hardware once.

root:
I know that it is realistic. It is just to easy to get, Read this thread for clarifications.

blaseline:
read this thread for clarifications

TMs:
One spirit being broken does not canel out another broken thing, underpowered TMs

VR/AR: Well, you call it refreshing . ..

device ratings:
you acknowledged the response/system rating problem yourself

encryption:
breaking a realistic game world

subscription:
adds dice rolls by forcing people to intercept, percept and spoof

scanning IC:
ah, you do someting as the GM, thats substituting rules . . .

relay hosts:
you say it yourself

logic:
yes its a design desicion/stream lining problem

pilot/system/agent confusion:
As you saw in the thread it was not only me, and it is still anti streamlined

spoof:
per RAW you can spoof anything edit anything you want

maxed hackers:
compared to others hackers are maxed extremely early, that not to be denied
Serbitar
QUOTE (deek @ Jan 29 2007, 08:59 PM)
Credsticks...even using a Device Rating 6, what all can an agent/hacker do from within a credstick node?  Maybe its just because it has never come up in my games, but a credstick is not a commlink, so there is only a limited amount of actions an icon can take when in that node.  View logs, initiate transactions, etc...to me, that is like a hacker carrying a 6/6/6/6 coffee machine with him on runs...it just doesn't make sense as all devices, even rated the same, don't have all the capabilities as a comm.

What is missing? The camera, the GPS and others, but apart from that they are full blown nodes.

6/6/6/6 is 6/6/6/6. It can run agents, run software and connect to other nodes. What else is needed?
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Serbitar)
Agents: still we have the situation that a buyable agent equals a maxed hacker in almost every aspect. Why hire hackers? Just buy agents and hardware once.

That only works if you are building security - and only as long as no-one with Security+ access tells the Agents to do other things.

QUOTE (Serbitar)
encryption:
breaking a realistic game world

I'm not entirely sure whether the lack of encryption is actually breaking the world right now... just like credit card payments.
Emergence will most likely change that. wink.gif

QUOTE (Serbitar)
subscription:
adds dice rolls by forcing people to intercept, percept and spoof

Ah... actually, you can do the same for any wireless connection.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Serbitar)
What else is needed?

An interface.
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