But there is a difference between consistency and everything being the same....I am getting the feeling, at least from this thread of posts, that you will only be satisfied with the core rules once every category of things is written out as being the same...its a noble pursuit, but I just don't see that being SR4, to me, at least.

You want every node to act the same, every rating to mean the same (e.g. 6/6/6/6 coffee machine being equivalent to a 6/6/6/6 commlink), no difference between a TM and a traditional hacker, no difference between IC v. Agents v. Personas...

While I agree with some of your points and efforts to introduce consistency across the board, I don't agree with all of them. I don't understand why you have a great need to have an agent run and act exactly like a persona...in this regard, I prefer the difference between the agents and personas...consistency in this, would be a bad move...again, IMO.

I'm going to repeat a couple of points that keep getting ignored. One, the hacker or hacker adept is not running better numbers out of the box. IF you have a permissive GM, maybe he is, but oddly, super-commlinks with 6/6/6/6 are one of the few things that actually have an availability code now, same with rating 6 software.

If you aren't using those rules in your games, then sure, it's EASY to just get super hardware and software. But the rules are there, and I don't see why a brand new Runner should start with anything he can't get 'off the shelf'.

Hardware has an availability 16 for each component. That's sixteen hits on an extended test. Software is gonna be a 12, with a six freaking month interval for system... how many runs can your TM run in a year? If you just randomly decide super systems are available at the stuffer shack then sure, your Technomancer has a balance issue. But then, you aren't using RAW, are you?


And why, oh why, do you never rebutt on the threading issue? A Technomancer can get double his CF rating by threading. That makes up for a hell of a lot.

Consistency:

x+x = y
y+x = z

=>

x+x+x = z
x+x != z

for all definitions of x

Its called logic, It cant be broken, though you have the choice of what to put in for x.

Except 0.

Actually, noone is talking about starting with a 6/6/6/6 Commlink. We're talking about a 5/5/6/6 Commlink. See, a Response and Signal of 6 is outside the starting availability. But getting a Rating 6 ine everything else is well within the starting availabilities.

So you have a Response 5 and a Signal 5, and a Rating 6 System, Firewall, Attack, Stealth, etc. Why bother? Because it's expensive and difficult to upgrade all that crap to Rating 6 once play has begun, so you might as well have the 6 now even if it just runs at 5 until you get a better Response.

Technomancers do that same thing - they start with every Complex Form they are allowed to have at Rating 6 because it's fucking expensive to buy the CFs up to 6 once play starts (6 Karma a piece, fuck that noise!) - we are talking about making characters for the long haul here.

And as to inevitable question: Can you really upgrade your Commlink before play starts? Hellz yeah you can! The Sample Hacker on p. 96 of the basic book does exactly that.

-Frank

Using the prefigured archetypes to reflect character generation has a long history of not working. I recall that you couldn't make the archetypes in 1st edition using the rules without cheating... a reward for taking a premade character as I recall.

Like I've said before, part of your complaint is that TM's spend Karma to upgrade and Hacker's don't. JUST LIKE Mages/Adepts vs. StreetSams... in a debate as old as the game. This doesn't reflect that the hacking rules alone are broken, only that character improvement isn't level between the money geeks and the mana geeks (now resonance geeks...). If you play with a GM who is stingy with the nuyen, making runners fight for beer money, then the karma crowd has an advantage when it comes to improvement. If the GM hands out the cash rewards like candy then it's the gadget freaks who get ahead...


Yes, a TM winds up more of a specialist, having to make a few more hard calls in creating his character,but he can compete with even your Hacker Adept with threading and sprites, even out of the box. And if you are talking 'long haul', then you'll prefer the TM, who is uncapped, to the hacker or hacker adept who can start with a maximum dice pool at character creation and never get any better. Damn the karma costs.

And if six karma is a lot to you to improve something, I have to wonder what 'improvement' table you've been reading??? To take a skill to level three costs six karma. To take a skill to level 6 costs 18! That's for a single point increase.

No. I'm aghast that the Technomancers spends ONE THOUSAND KARMA to equal a Hacker Adept shortly after chargen. We aren't talking the arcane mysteries of whether 1.5 million is worth 200 Karma (some games it is, some games it isn't). We're asking ourselves whether ONE THOUSAND KARMA is worth 11k. Righty-o. That's slightly more than one month's rent at high lifestyle vs.

ONE THOUSAND KARMA.

OK, now are we on the same page? The uncapped nature of the Technomancer does not come into being unto he has amassed a thousand Karma points. I have never heard of any character in any edition ever amassing that many Karma points to rub together.

---

So yeah, in the "long run" eventually the Hacker Adept will be good at more things, and the Technomancer will be more of a specialist. That is, the Technomancer will have a dice pool of 16 whle hacking and the Hacker Adept will have a dicepool of only 15. And the Hacker Adept will have spent one thousand Karma on other things. He'll be, for example, a Master Face, because it only costs 170 Karma to go from a Charisma of 1 and no social skills to a Charisma of 6 and an Influence Group of 6. Heck, he'll be a full scale Pornomancer now, because getting himself 3 ranks of Kinesics and a few levels of Improved Ability: Ettiquette only sets him back another 33 Karma.

The Technomancer's bulge is:

1. Ridiculously small.
   
2. Not even available until the game has been going on for years after most campaigns have long since ended.
   
3. Comes at the cost of the Hacker Adept becoming a legendary master at 4 additional spheres of endeavor.

Really. Stop waving your hands and put up some math. This is grotesquely stacked against the Technomancer at every level of play. Beginning characters, advanced characters, it don't matter - the only good Technomancer is a Technomancer Rigger who doesn't Hack at all and just lets Machine Sprites pilot Steel Lynxes.

Six Karma is a metric ass tonne when you realize that there are 20 Complex Forms. Just to equal the Program Ratings that a Hacker Adept begins play with, you're talking about shilling out 120 Karma - assuming for the moment that you could start play with all 20 CFs. Which you can't. In reality you're only allowed to start with 10 with the TM you put forward - which in turn means that you're actually going to be spending 280 Karma just to equal the Program Ratings that the Hacker began play with - and as previously noted that is more Karma than the Hacker Adept needs to go from a zero start to world-class mastery in a single field.

-Frank

Did you read the assessment of the characters involved?

Let's consider your suggested Technomancer:

All 5s in all of his Mental Stats. Resonance 6. 10 Complex Forms at 6. That's about maximized for a starting character.

But he's got to compete with a Hacker Adept who is going to have Improved Ability, which is worth 3 dice. And all Programs at 6. For the Technomacer to match that dicepool (15), he needs to raise his Complex Forms to 9. That costs 7+8+9 = 24 Karma on each of the 10 CFs he already has (240 Karma), and 2+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9 = 46 Karma on eahc of the CFs he doesn't already have (460 Karma). And he needs to raise his Mental Stats to 6 at 18 Karma a piece (72 Karma), and he needs to buy his Resonance up to 9, costing 21+24+27 (72) Karma for the Attribute, and 13 + 16 + 19 (48) Karma for the Submergence. And he has to purchase his Electronics and Cracking Groups up to 6 (they start at 4), which costs 55 Karma a piece (for another 110 Karma).

That's 240 + 460 + 72 + 72 + 48 + 110 = 1002 Karma

Really. I'm not fucking kidding about the 1000 Karma you need to spend just to equal the Hacker Adept. You haven't even taken a single step into the "uncapped" territory that you keep bringing up.

---

And yes, I am aware how completely ridiculous it is for any character to spend one thousand Karma on anything. It's just not going to happen. No campaign is going to maintain interest long enough to do that.

-Frank

Campaings may not.

You know what he meant.

Honestly, no - I don't.

OK ok, ill add y != z

Unnaceptable for me.

Well, that is the realm of personal preference, not an argument to force a RAW change on everyone else. I like consistency more than the average guy, but its not as much fun if everything is the same. There needs to be some variety to keep things interesting...

I am also in the camp that players get to do cool stuff and NPCs don't...the game is for the players and GM to have fun...while some groups seems to want to pit the players against the GM, I just don't think that is the intended spirit of roleplaying games.

I am not arguing that you have a problem with the "agent rule" of not allowing one independently on your own comm... I KNOW you have a problem with it:)

I'm just saying that I don't, and like the way agents != persona...

Serbitar, this particular sub-topic might also have something to do with your bias against the grunt rules. You always seem to oppose any attempt to "simplify" NPCs.

Wow...I know some whiz players that wish they could get karma that cheaply.

Hmm...SRM4 #1 Parliament of Thieves, Table Rating 0 (0-9 Karma)

The pay is 2500, or 1750 if you deliver the package late. That'd be 11 karma if you cashed it all in or 8 if you delivered it late. Initiate after one delivery run. Not bad.

He doesn't need to match the adept's permanent dice to match his pool. IF for some reason he needs to get his CF to 9 (say, for the purposes of competeing with your adept) he threads. Threading for three successes isn't a brutal, soul destroying process.

Consider this: Mr 'I need a nine' rolls ELEVEN dice to resist three boxes of stun. Now, he's got the -2 penalty do deal with, so he hands it off to the closest sprite to hold onto while he does his task, then takes it back. He's still rolling with a net gain of one even if he only kept the +3 dice.

Stun DV of 3!!! Oh MY! Totally wrecked him, yessir... he's useless, yup yup.

Now, for the same reason I suggest that no TM is going to want to have all his CF's, certainly not to 6 or more. He doesn't need 'em. Many of the programs are marginal utility programs, crap he doesn't need all that often. When he does need it, he threads it for the application or tasks a sprite to do it. Does he really need "track"? Probably not, and if he does, he's still got it, it's just not his 'go to' program. What about Encryption? Or Reality Filter? What rating does it need? 6? WTF???

When you take a practial look at the list of programs you'll see a lot of stuff that just doesn't get rolled that often. Some of what does get rolled is still optional. Do you need both black hammer and blackout? Decide if you want lethal or nonlethal combat as a default. Hell, unless he's planning to run your drones for you, he doesn't want ECCM much either...


Like I just said, trying to run a TM on a one for one comparison is like the age old adept/sammy debate. They do some stuff the same, some stuff different. If your Technomancers AREN"T threading every run, that's your fault, not the games. Same thing if he doesn't have a small army of sprites at his beck and call. I can't think of one good reason why a TM should start any run without capping out on registered sprites, and maybe calling up a few unregistered to take on the easy work...


Just so you know, I'm not trying to argue an extreme point here. We both agree that Technomancers are overly costly for what they can do. We just have a strong disagreement over 'how much'.

New people, specifically. People who we should be kind to and welcoming. People who we WANT to have posting their opinions and contributing to discussions, remember?

I still see no problem with correcting wrong statements even if they are new. You just cant flame them, per forum standards.

Until the Resonance Pools (Power Focus), Sprite Icons (Summoning or Binding focus), TM Tribes (Initiatory groups), etc... start to get released.

Ugh a Threading Focus would be Brutal (yes with a capital B).

It would however make his karma spending more efficient since the TM version of the magic items applies to multiple rolls instead of just 1. There's a reason why Power foci have high enough availability that you can only start with it at 2 other than fluff reasons...

The solutions are already there.

TMs buy CFs like spells (5 Karma, w00t, streamlining) at Resonance rating.

Fixes everything (well, not the "TMs can have unlimited sprite services") but mostly everything else.
TMS are now comparable to hackers, for short durations even better, but this is balanced due to the fact that they totally suck at everything else and cant have cyberware.

God help me... I agree with Serbitar!

Although, I'd bump it to 6 Karma, as Technomancers do not need to spend Nuyen to purchase formula, nor do they need to pay an instructor.

Of course, I also don't think Technomancers are weak, and am perfectly happy with them as is.

Seems like you didnt.