The thing about the Mana based illusion is that there really is no effect at the location you percieve the illusion. There is only perception of effect so even if the aura should surround the affected area rather than occupy the entire AOE then the aura would exist on the person perceiving the aura.
Now here's where the rules get difficult. The illusion is confined to the area of effect, however someone viewing the illusion from outside the area of effect is still influenced... I think... Is it clear that you have to enter the affected area to be influenced by the illusion?
Full Version: Concealment spirit power
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) | ||
In this specific case, given that bob indeed is hidden from sight, there is just one real aura - the one of the illusion spell. And, unfortunatly for Bob, no-one sane will run down a corridor that is glowing in the Aura of a spell before checking... |
The point isn't what someone sane would do, but what would happen if.... So noone sane would enter the alley, well then he comes to the end of the alley, sees the edge of the sphere of the AoE and Assenses it to see that it is an illusion spell and then decides it's safe to enter. What he sees is then what?
Something obvious that may be a good target to assense since it's a potential threat and he knows this area is under the effect of an illusion, and his quarry running away. Would he have a reason to assense the fake wall and see that it's shadow is not appropriate for a real object.
| QUOTE (Demerzel @ May 4 2007, 01:22 AM) |
| The thing about the Mana based illusion is that there really is no effect at the location you percieve the illusion. |
That's something you should base on a citation.
Illusion spells were classed as direct and indirect, and only the first ones exist just at the victim.
That made things a lot less confusing.
| QUOTE (Demerzel) |
| Would he have a reason to assense the fake wall and see that it's shadow is not appropriate for a real object. |
No, he would assense the spell aura, because this is the only obvious strange thing in this situation... and poof goes the illusion.
| QUOTE (SR4 p.201) |
| Some mana illusions affect the target’s senses directly, others affect the senses of anyone perceiving the subject of the spell (though the spellcaster is not affected by her own spell). |
So it does not affect the space where the phantasm appears.
As to assensing the aura of the illusion spell, why would that make the illusion dissappear? Page 201 says their auras "give them away as illusions" not automatically resist the illusion. That seems to indicate that you would see it, just know it is fake.
| QUOTE (Demerzel) |
| I’m not sure that is quite clear. It does leave its signature on everything it touches, and that takes 3 hits on a Assensing test to see so is not relevant because with 1 hit he sees that the thing he’s looking at is indeed not a real aura and is an illusion. As to the location of the Aura of the Illusion spell, well, again that’s not clear but I don’t see any reason why you would think it emanates from the illusory objects that don’t even really exist. |
But thats just it, I don't see any reason why you would think that the aura doesn't emanate from the spell's effect. Everything else that we know about auras points to them emanating from whatever has caused them. (And to be quite honest I don't see us ever convincing the other short of a Dev stepping in and clearifing the issue. Of course, this is Dumpshock so we might not even agree then.
) However, in the case of Bob's scene, I do agree with you that one spell would equal one aura, so in his case the entire alley would exclude the spell's aura since his spells effect is spread out that far and so merely knowing that there is a sustained spell in the air isn't quite as useful as if Bob had merely created a single cardboard box to hide in.
| QUOTE (Demerzel) |
| Not a problem, the point is there would be no reason for the pursuit to assense the wall or the form he’s chasing. If you want to say that you can assense the whole scene then we’ve got another discussion. I’m not of the opinion that you can Aura Read everything you see all at one glance, you should have to aura read a specific aura with each Use Skill (Assensing) action. Imagine the ramifications to the game if at a moments glance at a crowd a skilled aura reader could look over ten thousand people and pick out the people with a certain disease, or the Technomancers, etc. If we can agree on not being able to read all the auras you can see in one go then that changes somewhat your numbers on detecting every part of the illusion, since the goal would be to give the pursuer something to read other than the wall, and a different conclusion to come up with. |
Oh I quite agree that you can't Assense an entire crowd at once and get anything more then a meaningless blur and a nasty headache. However the problem is that I agree completely with something that you said earlier, One Spell = One Aura. So in the case of Bob's Alley Illusion, the persuing mage only has to Assense One Aura to pierce the entire Illusion, the Aura belonging to the spell itself.
Now if Bob had the time to create his scene with multiple castings, then there would be more Auras floating around and I agree that the second Mage would be forced to Assense each spell seperately in order to pierce that part of the illusion. But in that cast he's either had more time that he would have better spent running away or has split his Dicepool to cast two spells at once, which in turn would make both illusions that easier to resist.
*Edit*
| QUOTE (Demerzel) |
| So it does not affect the space where the phantasm appears. |
Ok then if not the space there the phantasm appears then what/who is the 'subject' of the spell? After all there is something in the space where the phantasm appears that is able to effect the minds of anyone who looks at it, regardless of AoE.
| QUOTE (Demerzel) |
| As to assensing the aura of the illusion spell, why would that make the illusion dissappear? Page 201 says their auras "give them away as illusions" not automatically resist the illusion. That seems to indicate that you would see it, just know it is fake. |
I agree, however once you Assense the spell and realize that the Spirit/Wall/Fake Bob are all an Illusion then even though you still see the Spirit/Wall/Fake Bob you know that they aren't real and can act accordingly.
I guess my answer to that is basically the post just above it.
| QUOTE (Demerzel) |
| As to assensing the aura of the illusion spell, why would that make the illusion dissappear? |
Because of
| QUOTE |
| Illusions cannot fool assensing to disguise or create auras. |
Demerzel, what had happened was that you and Rotbart van Dainig had posted after I started typing my previous post. I edited in my reponse to the in-between posts in order to avoid a double post but for ease of reading I'll do a quick cut/paste here...
| QUOTE (Ravor) | ||||
*Edit*
Ok then if not the space there the phantasm appears then what/who is the 'subject' of the spell? After all there is something in the space where the phantasm appears that is able to effect the minds of anyone who looks at it, regardless of AoE.
I agree, however once you Assense the spell and realize that the Spirit/Wall/Fake Bob are all an Illusion then even though you still see the Spirit/Wall/Fake Bob you know that they aren't real and can act accordingly. |
| QUOTE (Ravor) | ||
Ok then if not the space there the phantasm appears then what/who is the 'subject' of the spell? After all there is something in the space where the phantasm appears that is able to effect the minds of anyone who looks at it, regardless of AoE. |
From Marriam-Webster online:
| QUOTE ( [URL=http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/Subject) |
| http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/Subject[/URL]]something concerning which something is said or done <the subject of the essay> |
(Where do lexographers get this stuff)
Subject is not necessarily a tangible. The subject of a spell is the thing it is trying to describe or mimic (similar to how the subject of an essay is something it is describing), yet the effect is not where you perceive the subject, as quoted the effect is in the minds or senses of the targets.
Subject is not necessarily a tangible. The subject of a spell is the thing it is trying to describe or mimic (similar to how the subject of an essay is something it is describing), yet the effect is not where you perceive the subject, as quoted the effect is in the minds or senses of the targets.
| QUOTE (Ravor) | ||
I agree, however once you Assense the spell and realize that the Spirit/[b]Wall[b]/Fake Bob are all an Illusion then even though you still see the Spirit/Wall/Fake Bob you know that they aren't real and can act accordingly. |
I don’t agree that knowing that an illusion is affecting an area means you can tell exactly what you are seeing inside that area is or is not an illusion. I don’t think there is a quote in the illusion section that indicates that. At best I would say it gives you a reason to read the auras of the things in the area that are suspect. But if a clever set of illusions is made then an observer may not think to assense it all, the hope is the one thing you want them to not assense is the one they don’t…
Note: Yea, I figured that, it was a pretty long post only 2 minutes after mine. That's why I pointed out that I felt I answered the main body of it.
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) | ||
Because of
|
Yea, but you weren't assensing the phantasms you were assensing the spell.
And it wouldn't go poof so much as let the perciever know that what they assensed is an illusion.
The way I see it, asensing the aura of the spell is not assensing the subjects of the spell. Let me see if I can describe the scene as I see it.
| CODE |
| GM: There is an aura of an AoE spell surrounding this area. Inside the area you see a Fire Elemental and behind it you see your quarry running around the next corner. The elemental doesn’t appear to have noticed you. PC: Okay I assense the aura to see what the affect is before I enter it. GM: It’s an illusion spell. PC: Ah, okay, so perhaps that elemental is an illusion designed to slow me down. Well, fine I’m not going to risk it, I assense the elemental. GM: <rolls> Okay you succeeded the elemental is fake. PC: Damn, okay, I wasted 3 seconds, I return to the chase and follow the guy around the corner. |
Maybe this isn’t the PC perceiving etc. but you get the idea I hope.
Perhaps he decides to not follow, and keep looking around. But if he were busy trying to track his quarry then that may not be the clear idea… When he gets around the corner and can’t figure out where to go next, he may return. But the hider gets that chance to slip out of the alley and try to run off some other way.
| QUOTE (Demerzel @ May 4 2007, 02:19 AM) | ||||
Yea, but you weren't assensing the phantasms you were assensing the spell. And it wouldn't go poof so much as let the perciever know that what they assensed is an illusion. The way I see it, asensing the aura of the spell is not assensing the subjects of the spell. Let me see if I can describe the scene as I see it |
Again, you are missing the point.
Even if illusions could create Auras (which, most likely they can't, as your theory is build on a reverse), by said rule, identifying the spell as illusion spell completely disbelieves the illusion.
Thus, as this is only one spell, he would note that it's an illusion spell, and the wall, the elemental and the person are fakes... and whatever details you added to the scene.
The only way around that is maintaining multiple phantasms (in which case you would loose your wished fuzzyness of aura-location, too), both on the physical and the astral plane. In your case, that would make six. Good luck.
And, yes, the fact that the aura of an illusion spell sticks with the illusion is implied by:
| QUOTE |
| Though manabased illusions can be created on the astral plane, their magical auras give them away as illusions to anyone who makes a successful Assensing Test (see Astral Perception, p. 182). |
So, basically, no way how you try to turn it, it just doesn't quite work.
And if I were running it it would have gone this way.
| CODE |
| DM: There is an aura of an AoE spell surrounding this area. Inside the area you see a Fire Elemental and behind it you see your quarry running around the next corner. The elemental doesn’t appear to have noticed you. PC: Okay I assense the aura to see what the affect is before I enter it. DM: <rolls> It's an illusion spell that stretches across the entire alley, the sound of hurried desperation ringing hollowly through your ears. What you first thought was a fire elemental is clearly a fraud, the threads of it's false aura flaying under your gaze. Likewise a section of the alley's wall seems to bulge and twist of its own accord. PC: So basically the elemental is fake and so is a section of the wall? DM: Yes. PC: What about the mage I saw running around the corner? DM: You have no way of knowing for sure, but the spell's aura did stretch around the corner as well. |
Now remember that even in this case, if Bob was smart he could still have used this illusion to his advantage if he had simply overlayed the illusionary wall a few inches away from the real thing and had really run around the corner with the 'fake Bob' overlayed over the top of him.
*Edit*
Added a Dice Roll in the Code Block to make it clear that the PC did in fact make an Assensing Test.
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| Now remember that even in this case, if Bob was smart he could still have used this illusion to his advantage if he had simply overlayed the illusionary wall a few inches away from the real thing and had really run around the corner with the 'fake Bob' overlayed over the top of him. |
Let's just say that the whole situation is non-smart and the usual reaction to 'something just vanished around the corner' is a grenade, usually airburst.
*chuckles* Or a high Force Ball Lighting Spell... 
| QUOTE (Ravor @ May 4 2007, 08:43 AM) | ||
And if I were running it it would have gone this way.
Now remember that even in this case, if Bob was smart he could still have used this illusion to his advantage if he had simply overlayed the illusionary wall a few inches away from the real thing and had really run around the corner with the 'fake Bob' overlayed over the top of him. *Edit* Added a Dice Roll in the Code Block to make it clear that the PC did in fact make an Assensing Test. |
No, the problem with both examples is that both of you are not stating the number of hits.
What happens on the Assenssing test when the mage:
1) Critical Glitch
2) Glitch
3) No Hits
4) 1 Hit
5) 2 Hits
The way I see it, Demerzel is describing the scenario for 1 hit while Ravor is stating 2 or more hits. Of course the results will be different. And no one has touched on the no hits or worse scenarios yet. Personally as a GM, I'd not give as much information as Ravor unless the test scored 3 hits.
Good point toturi.
Ok, to set the scene, the Character already knows that there is some sort of Spell Aura covering the entire alley and has made an Assensing Test that came up as :
-Critical Glitch-
"As you open your Third Eye to the world you feel a wave of pain ripple throughout your body as it feels like every human emotion and sensation that has ever been felt throughout history bullrushs over your fragile psyche. You wake up some time later with a pounding headache and some street bum trying to pull off your boots."
Basically they learn nothing, the chase is over and they wake up some time later in a bad situation. Either that or the character draws the attention of a hostile spirit who takes offence at the spell defiling 'its' alley and blames the character for it no matter whoes signature is on the spell. Or if I want to spice things up a bit, some other Astral weirdness strikes the character. But the bottom line is that no matter what happens, the character loses the chase.
-Glitch-
"Something doesn't feel quite right as you open your Third Eye..."
In order to keep this post from turning into an essay I think I'll largely skip on what I might do for a Glitch because in all reality the answer depends on how many Sucesses the Character had also scored. For example if they've gotten the 2+ Hits needed to pierce the Illusion I think I'd give them some Stun Damage from running across a freak Mana Surge or maybe have the Assensing Test take alittle longer than usual giving Bob some breathing room. Another idea is that I may only give part of the information, maybe they see that the wall is fake but think that the Spirit is real, or visa-versa, or if they only got 1 Hit then they might be mistaken about what class of spell they are dealing with, maybe they realize that the "Fire Elemental" isn't really a Spirit but instead believe that it is some form of maniplation spell that shapes fire into whatever shape the caster wishes.
-0 Hits-
"You open your Third Eye to no avail, the tightly woven threads of mana which makes up the spell refuse to yield their secrets to you."
The bottom line is that no matter what the character knows that there is a spell of some sort hanging over the alley, in this case he is just no better or worse off then when he started.
-1 Hit-
"Something isn't quite right about the auras in the alley, maybe its just that the spell's aura seems to be hanging extra heavily in the local Astral, but you can't quite shake the feeling that not all is as it appears to be."
Although 1 Hit isn't quite enough to reveal the class of the spell, it is still an Assensing Test and we know that illusions can not create auras that are able to fool an actual Assensing Test, so I'd drop some heavy hints about the truth of the matter and let the character decide whether to try again or to take a chance.
-2 Hits-
"It's an illusion spell that stretches across the entire alley, the sound of hurried desperation ringing hollowly through your ears. What you first thought was a fire elemental is clearly a fraud, the threads of it's false aura flaying under your gaze. Likewise a section of the alley's wall seems to bulge and twist of its own accord."
Yeah this is the threshold for learning the truth for the following reasons.
-1- We know that illusion spells can not create Auras that can fool an Assensing Test.
-2- This is the Threshold for learning the exact classification of a spell or spirit.
-3- This is also the Threshold that you need to achieve in order to instantly recognize an Aura that you've seen previously, even if something as serious as a full body workover and sex change has been done to the subject.
-3 Hits-
Basically I'd give more details about the spell, including confirming the fact that Bob did indeed cast it and the truth about whether or not the man they saw running around the corner was an illusion or the real thing.
-Critical Sucess-
Although not RAW I think that its well within the spirit of the rules to allow the character to completely pierce through the entire illusion, or perhaps allow the character to get a deeper understanding of Bob from studying the way he weaves the mana to his will, including an idea of what types of places he's likely to go to ground in and what tactics he might try next. Or if you want more in line with RAW's example, then Bob's weaves were so rushed sloppy that the character's Assensing Test only took up a Simple Action instead of a Complex.
Ok, to set the scene, the Character already knows that there is some sort of Spell Aura covering the entire alley and has made an Assensing Test that came up as :
-Critical Glitch-
"As you open your Third Eye to the world you feel a wave of pain ripple throughout your body as it feels like every human emotion and sensation that has ever been felt throughout history bullrushs over your fragile psyche. You wake up some time later with a pounding headache and some street bum trying to pull off your boots."
Basically they learn nothing, the chase is over and they wake up some time later in a bad situation. Either that or the character draws the attention of a hostile spirit who takes offence at the spell defiling 'its' alley and blames the character for it no matter whoes signature is on the spell. Or if I want to spice things up a bit, some other Astral weirdness strikes the character. But the bottom line is that no matter what happens, the character loses the chase.
-Glitch-
"Something doesn't feel quite right as you open your Third Eye..."
In order to keep this post from turning into an essay I think I'll largely skip on what I might do for a Glitch because in all reality the answer depends on how many Sucesses the Character had also scored. For example if they've gotten the 2+ Hits needed to pierce the Illusion I think I'd give them some Stun Damage from running across a freak Mana Surge or maybe have the Assensing Test take alittle longer than usual giving Bob some breathing room. Another idea is that I may only give part of the information, maybe they see that the wall is fake but think that the Spirit is real, or visa-versa, or if they only got 1 Hit then they might be mistaken about what class of spell they are dealing with, maybe they realize that the "Fire Elemental" isn't really a Spirit but instead believe that it is some form of maniplation spell that shapes fire into whatever shape the caster wishes.
-0 Hits-
"You open your Third Eye to no avail, the tightly woven threads of mana which makes up the spell refuse to yield their secrets to you."
The bottom line is that no matter what the character knows that there is a spell of some sort hanging over the alley, in this case he is just no better or worse off then when he started.
-1 Hit-
"Something isn't quite right about the auras in the alley, maybe its just that the spell's aura seems to be hanging extra heavily in the local Astral, but you can't quite shake the feeling that not all is as it appears to be."
Although 1 Hit isn't quite enough to reveal the class of the spell, it is still an Assensing Test and we know that illusions can not create auras that are able to fool an actual Assensing Test, so I'd drop some heavy hints about the truth of the matter and let the character decide whether to try again or to take a chance.
-2 Hits-
"It's an illusion spell that stretches across the entire alley, the sound of hurried desperation ringing hollowly through your ears. What you first thought was a fire elemental is clearly a fraud, the threads of it's false aura flaying under your gaze. Likewise a section of the alley's wall seems to bulge and twist of its own accord."
Yeah this is the threshold for learning the truth for the following reasons.
-1- We know that illusion spells can not create Auras that can fool an Assensing Test.
-2- This is the Threshold for learning the exact classification of a spell or spirit.
-3- This is also the Threshold that you need to achieve in order to instantly recognize an Aura that you've seen previously, even if something as serious as a full body workover and sex change has been done to the subject.
-3 Hits-
Basically I'd give more details about the spell, including confirming the fact that Bob did indeed cast it and the truth about whether or not the man they saw running around the corner was an illusion or the real thing.
-Critical Sucess-
Although not RAW I think that its well within the spirit of the rules to allow the character to completely pierce through the entire illusion, or perhaps allow the character to get a deeper understanding of Bob from studying the way he weaves the mana to his will, including an idea of what types of places he's likely to go to ground in and what tactics he might try next. Or if you want more in line with RAW's example, then Bob's weaves were so rushed sloppy that the character's Assensing Test only took up a Simple Action instead of a Complex.
Actually, the rules nowhere demand successful assensing - even if one would allow illusions that mimic Auras at all, which I heavily doubt is within the spirit of the rules.
So, once the character spent the action for assensing, any astral illusion is pierced.
You may not recognize that the aura of the spell is an illusion spell - but you will recognize that the illusionary aura itself is not a real one.
So, once the character spent the action for assensing, any astral illusion is pierced.
You may not recognize that the aura of the spell is an illusion spell - but you will recognize that the illusionary aura itself is not a real one.
How can you consistanly block out the part of the sentance that requires a successful Assensing Test? It just boggles...
| QUOTE (Demerzel @ May 4 2007, 03:26 PM) |
| How can you consistanly block out the part of the sentance that requires a successful Assensing Test? |
Yet again, you lack precision. Those two seperate sentences both each concern a specific problem:
| QUOTE |
| Though manabased illusions can be created on the astral plane, their magical auras give them away as illusions to anyone who makes a successful Assensing Test (see Astral Perception, p. 182). |
This is just about any illusion created on the astral plane. Additionally to the illusion itself, any illusion spell has an aura that will be recognised as a spell without test.
To know that this aura of the spell is an illusion spell, a successful Assensing test is need - as per Assensing table. No new information.
| QUOTE |
| Illusions cannot fool assensing to disguise or create auras. |
Now this only concerns illusionary auras - the problem that such illusion would have the aura of a spell themselves was handled in the sentence before.
This, however goes farther - it doesn't request a test to not be fooled by the illusion.
Please note that the second sentence only implies the possibility of illusionary auras fooling astral perception without an assensing action in reverse, too.
| QUOTE (Demerzel @ May 4 2007, 01:26 PM) |
| How can you consistanly block out the part of the sentance that requires a successful Assensing Test? It just boggles... |
Hmm, im actually inclined to give Demerziel some leeway here. In this case we should focus on MANA based illusions. I Quote from page 201 of the bible:
“Though manabased illusions can be created on the astral plane, their magical
auras give them away as illusions to anyone who makes a successful Assensing Test.”
This means that anyone UNDER THE INFLUENCE of said mana illusion will NOT see the illusion as a MAGICAL aura as their mind is perceiving a regular flat, boring non-magical astral shape. IF they make an assensing test and SUCCEED then they see the illusion for what it is.
Anyone OUTSIDE the area of effect using astral perception would DIRECTLY see the aura as a spell as they are not affected.
Even though they have a magical aura people under the influence of the spell will have no reason to disbelieve it, unless they assense it.
Physical illusions is a visual sense and will be instantly noticed as a spell when one looks at it on the astral.
EDIT
How this affect mana based invisibility spells though, I have no idea. Will the character be invisible or will the watching mage NOT see the spell BUT see the aura of the individual?
Mana based illusions are “fool the mind” and “see me not” spells of a suggestive nature but you CANNOT hide an PERSONS aura from the astral, magically active or not. Thus invisible people are NOT invisible – but the SPELL is until the watching mage assense it if he is affected by the illusion.
EDIT 2
This opens up another question – what happens first? In this case with mana based invisibility where people resist the spell when looking at the person.
1. Magician looks astrally at an invisible individual
2. Magician resists the inivisibility spell
3. If he failed he sees the persons aura but must assense to see the active spell
OR
1. Magician looks astrally at invisible individual
2. Magician notice active spell aura but cannot see more without assenssing.
3. Magician resists invisibility spell.
| QUOTE (The Jopp) |
| This means that anyone UNDER THE INFLUENCE of said mana illusion will NOT see the illusion as a MAGICAL aura as their mind is perceiving a regular flat, boring non-magical astral shape. IF they make an assensing test and SUCCEED then they see the illusion for what it is. Anyone OUTSIDE the area of effect using astral perception would DIRECTLY see the aura as a spell as they are not affected. |
Said illusion is an indirect illusion, area defining only the area that can be redecorated.
The distance of the perceiver is of no importance.
| QUOTE (The Jopp) |
| Even though they have a magical aura people under the influence of the spell will have no reason to disbelieve it, unless they assense it. Physical illusions is a visual sense and will be instantly noticed as a spell when one looks at it on the astral. |
The aura of the spell is still there, perfectly perceivable... in both cases.
| QUOTE (The Jopp) |
| How this affect mana based invisibility spells though, I have no idea. Will the character be invisible or will the watching mage NOT see the spell BUT see the aura of the individual? |
Man, read the thread.
Frist, Invisibilty explicitly states that it can't make the user invisble on the astral.
Second, the aura of the spells still lingers.
| QUOTE (The Jopp) |
| Mana based illusions are “fool the mind” and “see me not” spells of a suggestive nature but you CANNOT hide an PERSONS aura from the astral, magically active or not. Thus invisible people are NOT invisible – but the SPELL is until the watching mage assense it if he is affected by the illusion. |
Illusions may fool senses, but they do not fool the mind entirely.
That's the realm of Control Manipulation spells.
Although I also heavily doubt that illusions mimicing auras is within the spirit of the rules, if they could, Demerzel is saying an unsuccessful assensing test wouldn't pierce the illusion because no successes = no information. One success would be enough to pierce the illusion of a faked aura, because the aura reader would get no information, again. (Because illusions cannot disguise or create auras to fool an assensing test, as opposed to mere astral perception, as Demerzel claims.)
However, I disagree that spells can create the illusion of an aura that would stand up to even casual scrutiny. If so, you could create a spell that would disguise the subject's aura as something else, if only to casual observers. An astrally projecting magician could invent a spell to make his aura look like a dragon, a spirit, whatever, so long as he doesn't stick around long enough for anyone to get a good look. He could make it look like he has hundreds of auras stacked on top of his own, each reading as various spell types, making finding his real ones a herculean task. Actually that all sounds really cool
but illusions just aren't supposed to mess with auras. Illusions are not meant to be a poor man's masking.
However, I disagree that spells can create the illusion of an aura that would stand up to even casual scrutiny. If so, you could create a spell that would disguise the subject's aura as something else, if only to casual observers. An astrally projecting magician could invent a spell to make his aura look like a dragon, a spirit, whatever, so long as he doesn't stick around long enough for anyone to get a good look. He could make it look like he has hundreds of auras stacked on top of his own, each reading as various spell types, making finding his real ones a herculean task. Actually that all sounds really cool
but illusions just aren't supposed to mess with auras. Illusions are not meant to be a poor man's masking.
| QUOTE (2bit) |
| One success would be enough to pierce the illusion of a faked aura, because the aura reader would get no information, again. (Because illusions cannot disguise or create auras to fool an assensing test, as opposed to mere astral perception, as Demerzel claims.) |
Thats the point, they can't fool assensing at all. There is neither a requirement to make a test, nor to be successful. Just invoking the action is enough.
| QUOTE (2bit) |
| An astrally projecting magician could invent a spell to make his aura look like a dragon, a spirit, whatever, so long as he doesn't stick around long enough for anyone to get a good look. |
That's called masking.
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ May 4 2007, 10:09 PM) |
| Thats the point, they can't fool assensing at all. There is neither a requirement to make a test, nor to be successful. Just invoking the action is enough. |
They cannot fool Assensing to disguise or create auras. And that is all that Illusion cannot fool Assensing - disguise or create auras.
Further, using Assensing is not exactly like using Perception. Assensing follows the standard skill rules. Astral Perception is like Perception, Assensing isn't.
| QUOTE (toturi) | ||
They cannot fool Assensing to disguise or create auras. And that is all that Illusion cannot fool Assensing - disguise or create auras. |
Somehow, I missed your point... if you refer to the subject of illusionary auras, that's what we were talking about...
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| Further, using Assensing is not exactly like using Perception. Assensing follows the standard skill rules. Astral Perception is like Perception, Assensing isn't. |
Actually, that isn true... Assensing basically replaces Perception on the astral plane.
But we weren't talking about the skill Assensing, but the action assensing.
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ May 4 2007, 11:17 PM) | ||||||
Somehow, I missed your point... if you refer to the subject of illusionary auras, that's what we were talking about...
Actually, that isn true... Assensing basically replaces Perception on the astral plane. But we weren't talking about the skill Assensing, but the action assensing. |
If the illusion spell neither disguise nor create auras, Assensing does jack. So a Mask(because Mask uses "disguise" in the spell description) can be penetrated by the use of Assensing. But a Phantasm does not have the "disguise" keyword, therefore no, Assensing does nothing unless successful.
And there is no Action called Assensing. Perception is special because of the Using Perception section on p117 SR4.
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) |
| Actually, that isn true... Assensing basically replaces Perception on the astral plane. But we weren't talking about the skill Assensing, but the action assensing. |
Assensing is not parallel to Perception.
| QUOTE (SR4 p.114) |
| Perception is used to determine what a character notices about her surroundings that is abnormal or strange. |
| QUOTE (SR4 p.113) |
| Assensing is the skill of learning information from auras, astral forms and astral signatures (see Astral Perception, p. 182). Only characters capable of astral perception (they either have the Magician quality or the Adept or Mystic Adept quality and the Astral Perception adept power) may take or use this skill. |
Perception is defaultable, assensing is not. Assensing enhances your ability to notice things in the astral, but it is clearly not it’s only function, where perception is only related to noticing things.
Illusion spells are convincing by their own description. If astral perception without any successes necessary automatically reveal the fact that what you are looking it is not what it appears then it fails to be convincing.
The final word on what an illusion does has to be within the description of illusion powers. Statements under astral perception are trumped when a power specifically changes it, as in this case.
You cannot say that p.182 means that illusions are unconvincing to an astral observer because we know that illusions are convincing. I’ve tried to come up with possibilities of why an Illusion can be convincing and be compatible with your concept of astral perception, but that appears to be impossible.
Since an Illusion is convincing, can be created on the astral, then it cannot be unconvincing to an astral observer. Now it’s your job to rectify why your concept of astral perception does not allow for convincing illusions.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| If the illusion spell neither disguise nor create auras, Assensing does jack. So a Mask(because Mask uses "disguise" in the spell description) can be penetrated by the use of Assensing. But a Double Image or a Phantasm does not have the "disguise" keyword, therefore no, Assensing does nothing unless successful. |
They were elaborating on the reverse implication of creating superficially plausible fake auras using Phantasm on the astral plane... you know, the 'create' keyword.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| And there is no Action called Assensing. Perception is special because of the Using Perception section on p117 SR4. |
Thats why I said 'action' and 'assensing', not 'Action' nor 'Assensing'.
It's all a bit technical:
| QUOTE |
| While astral perception allows an Awakened character to sense the astral plane, actually interpreting what is sensed takes practice. Interpreting auras to gain information about the person or thing to whom they belong is called assensing. A magician who wishes to learn more about an aura must make an Intuition + Assensing test, with the number of hits determining how much the magician learns, as outlined on the Assensing Table (p. 183). Without attempting to read an aura, a magician can still get an impression of what type of aura it is (spell, spirit, living creature, etc.). Like physical perception, a character using astral perception should not need to make a test to see things that are immediately obvious (and since astral forms are bright and vibrant, this means that most astral forms are easily noticed). An actual test should only be called for when an astral being is specifi cally trying to hide, or when a character is trying to astrally observe in detail; in both these situations, an Assensing Test is made |
| QUOTE (Demerzel @ May 4 2007, 05:40 PM) | ||
Assensing is not parallel to Perception. |
| QUOTE |
| Like physical perception, a character using astral perception should not need to make a test to see things that are immediately obvious (and since astral forms are bright and vibrant, this means that most astral forms are easily noticed). An actual test should only be called for when an astral being is specifi cally trying to hide, or when a character is trying to astrally observe in detail; in both these situations, an Assensing Test is made |
Looks like it is...
| QUOTE (Demerzel) |
| You cannot say that p.182 means that illusions are unconvincing to an astral observer because we know that illusions are convincing. |
No, we don't. All we know is that they are not able to create illusions of aura convincing to assensing.
| QUOTE (Demerzel) |
| I’ve tried to come up with possibilities of why an Illusion can be convincing and be compatible with your concept of astral perception, but that appears to be impossible. |
Sorry, but just 'trying hard' isn't enough.
| QUOTE (Demerzel) |
| Since an Illusion is convincing, can be created on the astral, then it cannot be unconvincing to an astral observer. |
Unfortunatly, the rules think otherwise in the case of auras and assensing.
| QUOTE (Demerzel) |
| Now it’s your job to rectify why your concept of astral perception does not allow for convincing illusions. |
It's hardly my job to prove your theories...
Boy, looks like you didn't read past the first sentance I wrote.
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) | ||||||
They were elaborating on the reverse implication of creating superficially plausible fake auras using Phantasm on the astral plane... you know, the 'create' keyword.
Thats why I said 'action' and 'assensing', not 'Action' nor 'Assensing'. It's all a bit technical:
|
But the Phantasm fool by creating illusion, not auras. You know the illusion keyword.
Astral perception can be argued to be the astral equivalent of Perception ("like physical perception" et al). But Assensing is not Astral Perception per se.
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) | ||
It's hardly my job to prove your theories... |
It's not my theory. It's the rule. An illusion is convincing. You say it is not convincing in fact that without any tests you automatically know it's an illusion, that's not very convincing is it?
So tell me, how is the illusion convincing, and at the same time instantly recognized as an illusion without a test? Answer that one question.
| QUOTE (Demerzel) |
| Boy, looks like you didn't read past the first sentance I wrote. |
You know, first comes the general Astral Perception rules, then the Illusion Spell rules, then the exceptions for assensing illusions and then the exceptions of single spells.
If you miss that order, it's no wonder you are constantly confused, so let's get startet on the relevant info:
| QUOTE (SR4v3 @ p 182, Astral Perception) |
| Without attempting to read an aura, a magician can still get an impression of what type of aura it is (spell, spirit, living creature, etc.). |
So it takes no test to notice the presence of an aura and notice that it's a spell.
| QUOTE (SR4v3 @ p 182, Astral Perception) |
| Spells cast upon an individual show up as a separate aura surrounding that person for the duration of the spell. |
So, even if there is another aura, it does not obfuscate the aura of th spell in any way, nor does the aura of the spell obfuscates the aura.
| QUOTE (SR4v3 @ p 201, Illusion spells) |
| Realistic illusions seem completely real. |
Fair enough.
| QUOTE (SR4v3 @ p 201, Illusion spells) |
| Though manabased illusions can be created on the astral plane, their magical auras give them away as illusions to anyone who makes a successful Assensing Test (see Astral Perception, p. 182). |
So, the aura of an illusion spell sticks with the illusion, and can be identified as an illusion spell with an Assensing Test, referencing the normal rules for Astral perception - but this gives away the illusion as an illusion, too.
Note that this is completly independend from resisting said illusion spell - it's just like disproving the illusion with a non-affected sense.
| QUOTE (SR4v3 @ p 201, Illusion spells) |
| Illusions cannot fool assensing to disguise or create auras. |
This just states that you cannot create the illusion of auras or disguise auras that hold any water against assensing at all - even if it's unsuccessfull assensing.
This is the major exception for auras.
And thus, your error lies here:
| QUOTE (Demerzel) |
| It's not my theory. It's the rule. An illusion is convincing. You say it is not convincing in fact that without any tests you automatically know it's an illusion, that's not very convincing is it? |
The rule you are falling back to has a specific exception - just for this case.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| But the Phantasm fool by creating illusion, not auras. You know the illusion keyword. |
Yeah, but Demerzel is insisting that you could theoretically create the illusion of an aura... which is a reverse, but the point is that it doesn't matter on the long run.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| Astral perception can be argued to be the astral equivalent of Perception ("like physical perception" et al). But Assensing is not Astral Perception per se. |
Again, somehow you point seems lost.
Assensing is the only skill used for perceiving on the astral plane.
If you don't need to make a test to determine that an aura is a spell, spirit, whatever, then you shouldn't need to make a test to determine that what you're looking at isn't an aura at all. "Convincing" does not extend to auras.
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ May 5 2007, 12:08 AM) | ||
This just states that you cannot create the illusion of auras or disguise auras that hold any water against assensing at all - even if it's unsuccessfull assensing. This is the major exception for auras. |
Wrong, that just states that:
1) Illusion cannot disguise auras.
2) Illusion cannot create auras.
- that can fool Assensing.
That is all. Illusion cannot disguise, but it may hide. Illusion cannot create aura but it may create an illusion of an aura.
Assensing is the skill used to interpret what you perceive on the astral plane, not used for perceiving per se. Perception on the astral plane hence Astral Perception is not a skill but an ability.
| QUOTE (toturi) | ||||
Wrong, that just states that: 1) Illusion cannot disguise auras. 2) Create auras. That is all. |
Unfortunatly, that misses the 'assensing' part, which Demerzel is so fond of, as it, in reverse, would imply the possibility of disguising and creating auras that appear valid as long as you don't assense them.
Just to make clear: Concerning 2), do you read said rule that it is impossible for illusions spells to create the illusion of auras at all?
| QUOTE (rules) |
| If A then not A |
It is a contradiction and contradictions such as this cannot be rectified using classical logic. If one were to use classical logic the only plausible interpretation is that the rules themselves are incorrect.
Therefore, we must use paraconsistant logic.
The result is that we must conclude that it is impossible to disguise auras using illusion spells, but illusions appear real unless they are successfully assensed.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| It is a contradiction and contradictions such as this cannot be rectified using classical logic. |
Hrm? Exceptions are possible in logic...
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) | ||
You know, first comes the general Astral Perception rules, then the Illusion Spell rules, then the exceptions for assensing illusions and then the exceptions of single spells. If you miss that order, it's no wonder you are constantly confused, so let's get startet on the relevant info: |
You cannot mean that the astral perception rules trump the illusion rules because they come first? That methodology of rule interpretation is backwards. The latter rule modifies the original rule.
This order of importance of rules is illustrated in my this post, so I won’t repeat it:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...50&#entry532661
The illusion rules have to trump the perception rules, just like the Fubiki’s special rule has to trump the recoil rules.
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) | ||||
Fair enough.
So, the aura of an illusion spell sticks with the illusion, and can be identified as an illusion spell with an Assensing Test, referencing the normal rules for Astral perception - but this gives away the illusion as an illusion, too. Note that this is completly independend from resisting said illusion spell - it's just like disproving the illusion with a non-affected sense. |
What makes you think that it is valid to assume Astral Perception is a non affected sense? Assensing is a skill not a sense. Astral perception is a prerequisite of Assensing, not a synonym. Manabesed illusions can be created on the astral plane, therefore they can affect astral perception. You must succeed on an assensing test, the page reference back to 182 is so you can see how to make an assensing test, you assume that where it says you must succeed on an assensing test refers back to the part that says no test is necessary!
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) | ||
This just states that you cannot create the illusion of auras or disguise auras that hold any water against assensing at all - even if it's unsuccessfull assensing. This is the major exception for auras. |
If you really think that an unsuccessful use of assensing gives you something then I call shenanigans on you!
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) | ||
And thus, your error lies here:
The rule you are falling back to has a specific exception - just for this case. |
And that specific exception requires “a successful assensing test.”
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) | ||
Yeah, but Demerzel is insisting that you could theoretically create the illusion of an aura... which is a reverse, but the point is that it doesn't matter on the long run. |
That was in an attempt to reconcile your notion of instantly detecting illusions. I’ll say this now. I give that up, I wash my hands of reconciling your view.
You have not shown how an illusion can be convincing, and yet still be instantly recognized as an illusion.
hyzmarca statement perfectly encapsulates the issue,
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| The result is that we must conclude that it is impossible to disguise auras using illusion spells, but illusions appear real unless they are successfully assensed. |
Much of this thread I’ve been trying to reconcile the requirement that illusions cannot disguise auras, yet somehow still fool an onlooker until he is successful in an assensing test. The problem is Rotbart van Dainig does not believe any test is necessary, or that it is perfectly acceptable to fail that test and still get the results he wants.
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) | ||||||
Unfortunatly, that misses the 'assensing' part, which Demerzel is so fond of, as it, in reverse, would imply the possibility of disguising and creating auras that appear valid as long as you don't assense them. Just to make clear: Concerning 2), do you read said rule that it is impossible for illusions spells to create the illusion of auras at all? |
Please quote my latest edited post. I mistype sometimes.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| Please quote my latest edited post. I mistype sometimes. |
NP
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| Illusion cannot disguise, but it may hide. |
By breaking the LoS, sure - Invisibilty has a specific exception that it cannot.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| Illusion cannot create aura but it may create an illusion of an aura. |
That would only be corect if the it said 'Illusion spells cannot'.
As an illusion cannot create an aura, there is no possibilty of an illusion of an aura.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| Assensing is the skill used to interpret what you perceive on the astral plane, not used for perceiving per se. |
Whenever a test for perception on the astral plane is called for, Assensing is used.
That applies specifically to both hiding and observing in detail.
| QUOTE (Demerzel) |
| The latter rule modifies the original rule. |
Great that we can agree on that.
| QUOTE (Demerzel) |
| What makes you think that it is valid to assume Astral Perception is a non affected sense? |
I said 'like', not is. A better analogy would be: It's like seeing someone walking through an illusionary wall.
| QUOTE (Demerzel) |
| You must succeed on an assensing test, the page reference back to 182 is so you can see how to make an assensing test, you assume that where it says you must succeed on an assensing test refers back to the part that says no test is necessary! |
You are missing the point.
Identifying the spell aura as spell does not need a test. Identifying the spell aura as an illusion spell requires a test.
| QUOTE (Demerzel) |
| If you really think that an unsuccessful use of assensing gives you something then I call shenanigans on you! |
That is exactly what the rule is saying. It sets no condition for 'not being fooled' other than assensing.
| QUOTE (Demerzel) |
| And that specific exception requires “a successful assensing test.” |
No, thats the rule before.
Rember, two rules:
One for illusions on the astral in generel, and one for illusions concerning auras in specific.
| QUOTE (Demerzel) |
| You have not shown how an illusion can be convincing, and yet still be instantly recognized as an illusion. |
Neither must I, nor have I to - as noted, assensing is not instantly.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| That is all. Illusion cannot disguise, but it may hide. Illusion cannot create aura but it may create an illusion of an aura. |
I would argue heavily that "hiding" something, ie. removing it from one's notice, is very much a form of "disguise".
It goes without saying that Illusions cannot create auras. They cannot "create" anything. If you allow sorcery to create, alter, hide, or otherwise disguise auras with illusion, you've created a spell that Masks. Poor masking, but still, Masking.
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) | ||
By breaking the LoS, sure - Invisibilty has a specific exception that it cannot. |
Really the exception in Invisibility is just a reflection of the rules, and not an exception at all. If you cast an Invisibility spell on the physical plane, it has no effect on the astral plane - so of course the aura is visible there.
If you cast Invisibility on the astral plane, it does nothing at all- Invisibility is a one-sense illusion, and vision isn't utilized on the astral.
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) | ||
Hrm? Exceptions are possible in logic... |
But, you see, the rules do not list exceptions. They list two facts that are always true. Either these two facts are contradictory or not. If they are contradictory, then the rules are incorrect by classical logic. If they are not contradictory then the interpretations presented here are incorrect.
| QUOTE (2bit @ May 4 2007, 07:07 PM) |
| Really the exception in Invisibility is just a reflection of the rules, and not an exception at all. |
I'm not entirely sure that, if it wouldn't have been noted specifically, people wouldn't try to get around that by invoking the fact that every sense has an astral analogue.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) | ||||
But, you see, the rules do not list exceptions. They list two facts that are always true. |
That's a point.
| QUOTE (2bit) | ||
I would argue heavily that "hiding" something, ie. removing it from one's notice, is very much a form of "disguise". |
No disguise keyword.
I think this quote:
Illusions cannot fool assensing to disguise or create auras.
That sentance is what is confusing here. Rotbart van Dainig sees this and thinks, okay, under no circumstances can anyone astrally percieving be fooled by an illusion.
He sees Assensing and thinks that it is synonymous with Astral Perception, and that no skill check is necessary, you are just plain not fooled.
I think that's crazy. The previous sentance gives the situation on how simple it is to detect the difference, and limits it at the very basic, must succeed at an assensing test. That sentance clarifies how if you are successful at assensing you're not fooled.
I look at it and see, you must be successful, Rotbart van Dainig looks at it and sees, bam, any idiot sees through it regardless of any test on assensing because Assensing means Astrally Percieving.
I think that once your okay with requiring the skill test and up until that point you are fooled then it's clear. But that step of separating Assensing from Astral Perception is what is preventing Rotbart van Dainig from seeing our point.
Illusions cannot fool assensing to disguise or create auras.
That sentance is what is confusing here. Rotbart van Dainig sees this and thinks, okay, under no circumstances can anyone astrally percieving be fooled by an illusion.
He sees Assensing and thinks that it is synonymous with Astral Perception, and that no skill check is necessary, you are just plain not fooled.
I think that's crazy. The previous sentance gives the situation on how simple it is to detect the difference, and limits it at the very basic, must succeed at an assensing test. That sentance clarifies how if you are successful at assensing you're not fooled.
I look at it and see, you must be successful, Rotbart van Dainig looks at it and sees, bam, any idiot sees through it regardless of any test on assensing because Assensing means Astrally Percieving.
I think that once your okay with requiring the skill test and up until that point you are fooled then it's clear. But that step of separating Assensing from Astral Perception is what is preventing Rotbart van Dainig from seeing our point.
| QUOTE (Demerzel) |
| That sentance is what is confusing here. Rotbart van Dainig sees this and thinks, okay, under no circumstances can anyone astrally percieving be fooled by an illusion. He sees Assensing and thinks that it is synonymous with Astral Perception, and that no skill check is necessary, you are just plain not fooled. |
In short: No.
Demerzel's lack of precision is becoming bothersome.
By the words of the rule, it is necessary to assense.
Nothing more, nothing less - what assensing means is defined on p. 182.
(And no, I do no see assensing and Astral Perception as 'the same thing'. Neither is Assensing Astral Perception - it's a skill.)
Given the words of the rule are their intentions, anyone just using Astral Perception is fooled, but anyone assensing is not.
However, said rule does not require an successful Assensing Test, just assensing... and in fact, neither the said rule not the Assensing Table sets a threshold - in contrast to the the sentence rule before. Granted, assensing as per p. 182 calls for an Assensing Test, but the test is just a consequence of performing the action of assensing, and thus, no direct requirement of said rule.
As Assensing is not defaultable, this means that anyone not possessing that Skill would be indeed fooled by an illusionary aura... as would anyone not taking their time (which is unlikely as there is still the spell aura lingering - but that's the rule before).
This tells us a technical thing about illusionary auras, too:
They don't have any information you could assense. (assensing, but not successful)
While they look like auras to the casual observer, everyone starting to analyse them drops short immediately, noticing that such entity is not real, for the lack of information.
Which is pretty fitting, as changing/creating information withing auras is the realm of Masking.
wow, you guys are really going at it.
| QUOTE |
Manabesed illusions can be created on the astral plane, therefore they can affect astral perception. |
i'm not sure that i agree with this.
i always thought of illusions to fool the physical world. mana to fool the people and physical or improved spells to fool technology as well. i never imagined illusions to fool magical sight.
although, if a mana spell affects a person directly, would it matter what perception they are using?
i think it would be too powerful for illusion spells to fool mages also. otherwise, i could cast imp. invis. and noone would ever see me.
| QUOTE (BrandedBandit) |
| wow, you guys are really going at it. |
Heh. Just read the thread, most of our points already were adressed.
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