I think the best solution would be to start a poll... namely because, nothing against the people that wrote up the FAQ, but some of that stuff was wonky as hell and not conducive with previous editions.

I don't see what the problem is. You need no Assensing test to see that the thing before you( in astral space) is magical... the aura tells you so, no matter what shape it has or what it may be hiding or emulating. You need an Assensing test to know it is an illusion of a box. Why are folks trying to make it more difficult?

So you're saying that the rule that says you need to succeed at an Assensing Test is to be disregarded, because . . . ?

For the same reasons that no-one really calls for a Perception Test at -2 in order to notice a running crowd despite RAW using it as an example of what to call for a Perception Test in order to notice.

Exceptions only prove the rule toturi.

Question everything, trust nothing.

*Edit*

By the way, I did notice that you edited your post...

I've evolved beyond the need for Canon. *Manical Laughter*





Because remember, there is no spoon.

*Wanders off to find the nice young men in the clean white coats...*

Can we all just agree to disagree and quit trying to prove to each other something that cant be proven because the RAW sucks.

Either way, do the characters notice the box? I think it is unfair for the GM to just instantly write off that unless the character is percieving and chooses at random to assense the box/illusion spell. Even if the GM roles for the character, the character should have a chance to see it, unless he is not even astral.

And if you guys are going to keep on arguing, those in support of glowing spells, start actually quoting RAW even if an older edition, so far your argument lacks support, which those in disagreement have plenty of (and are so far winning the argument, if they would just calm down a bit)

Ross

Okay, I will bite

The wording on the Astral Perception and Assensing leaves much to be desired, IMO. It is not clear cut on whether a mana Illusion is an exception to the basic knowledge about the aura rule or is it merely restating the fact that an Assensing test is required to know what type of spell it is.

For GMs that want Astral Perception to break Illusion spells or simply want to keep things simple for themselves, they would rule it one way and for GMs that can see their way(pun pun) around the complex mess, they would rule it another way. For myself, until the writers clarify their stand, I would say that by the letter of the rules, Demerzel is correct - only because the Astral Perception rules themselves hop all over the damn place, one moment they are talking about 1 thing and the next about another, which to me, lend credance to Dem's arguments.

I hate to bring in something entirely unrelated like this, and it seems reductio ad absurdum arguments tend to fall on deaf ears here, but I’m going to try anyhow.

The argument that the rule that requires a successful Assensing Test (SR4 p.201 quoted many times already) is overridden by the fact that the section on assensing tests (SR4 p.182) is more general and takes precedence over the specific rule cannot be a valid method of interpretation.

Consider the Fubuki light pistol, its description contains the following rule:

Ok, Demerzel, now *there* is an argument with some meat to it. It gave me some pause.

The precedent of the Fubuki pistol could be construed as legitimizing overriding the general rule of Assensing with the specific rule of perceiving the Illusion spell. At this point, then we are again at the stage of interpreting the wording.

I see the Fubuki text as consciously pointing out an exception to the general rule, and not putting that general rule into confusion or jeopardy. It is a machine designed to work differently. The wording of the Illusion spell description is not so clear and consciously stepping outside the general rule, and does make the general rule confusing (see our current thread for evidence).

I recognize your interpretation and allow it has validity. I just don't agree. There appear to be two camps in this thread that feel the same way. The same arguments are appearing repeatedly. It would appear to me to be wise at this point to agree to disagree. I will run my games with my interpretation, and live with whatever way any GM runs me as a player. How about you? And the rest of us?

Okay so here’s how I see it in another attempt to summarize:

The appropriate method of interpreting rules is, first understand the basic rule, and then apply the special characteristics of the power/item/etc.

P.182 outlines the basic methods for how Astral Perception works. Then illusions come along and change the rules. In this case it creates a general case of how to handle illusions:

That is, “Realistic illusions seem completely real.” (SR p. 201)

Then, if you’re using Astral Perception then you may have an easy out. While that illusion seems completely real, if you succeed on an Assensing Test then you get to pierce the illusion for free even though you failed your willpower roll.

The quote that’s going around does not create the ability to have illusions in the astral, that is created by rules that allow mana based spell effects to work in the astral. What it does do is weaken illusions, giving a second method of piercing in the astral. It does not completely invalidate them.

Now perhaps someone can summarize the other side better, but the way I see it the whole thing hinges on this requirement that you can simply see something and determine the class of object it is while astrally perceiving, and that nothing will ever change that, not the fact that illusions can be created on the astral, or that realistic illusions seem completely real.

Then in that case to be *completely* within RAW you should be rolling Perception/Assensing Tests for every character every turn before taking them aside and describing what they "perceive".

But hey, if you want to run your game that way, more power to you toturi.

I think it is rather clear.

Example 1:
If a person is standing in plain sight with an illusion or other spell active that affects the perceiver that looks at the person or the person itself then the following is used:

The spell is immediately visible as the perceiver sees the spell – the individual in this case is unimportant, the spell is visible. If the perceiver wants more info about the spell and the individual an Assensing test is required for both.

Example 2:
A person has an active spell and is attemting to hide with an active spell/foci/etc/miniature giant space hamster/IE.

Since the person tries to hide the following is done to find him:

Assensing+Intuition (+/- Astral Modifiers)VS Infiltration+Agility

If the perceiver manages to find the (not so) stealthy intruder he will see a living aura with a spell active. In order to glean more info he must make an assensing test on both the spell and the individual.

Example 3: (from the thread)
A person is hiding inside an alley behind an illusionary box.

The magician will see the spell of the illusion but NOT the hiding person unless they make an opposed test as in example 1.

The active spell is obvious – the hiding person is not, that’s not to say that the hiding individual will be HARD to spot, but he’s still hiding.

ALL spells, foci etc are always visible on the astral, but not OBVIOUS on the astral if someone tries to hide. As long as no one actually tries to hide (themselves) their spells, foci etc will be visible.

This is my INTERPRETATION of the rules as it seems logical, I could be wrong though but I would still play with it.

I still don't understand why everyone is disregarding the fact that the illusion is affecting the minds of the observer and clinging to this obvious or not obvious issue. Sure it's obvious. Just like it it obvious when you look at empty space with normal perception that there is nothing there. Yet when you see an illusion you believe it, in the case of astral perception you get a bonus way out if you attempt to read the aura you are seeing.

If you cant accept that then you have to for all the same reasons say that it is obvious that nothing is there when you look with normal perception at empty space, and noone is ever fooled by any illusion and let's just throw them out.

But all of them failed to notice?

That requires unsupported assumptions about the aura's of spells. It requires that the aura of the spell is surounding a phantasmal box, when in fact it is not clear where the aura of an area spell is. There is specificity when it comes to spells cast on an individual, but Phantasm is an area spell. The box you see is just a box. If you're astral it's a shadow of a box. Furthermore, the spell broke your mind and you believe it. If however you assense the box you have the very curious situation of a box that has what? At best the signature of the caster, it lacks any emotional impressions even from casual handling, it's perfectly sterile, the usual germs and roaches aren't present. But for you to notice these things you have to . . . Oh can I really type it again . . . Okay . . . succeed on an Assensing Test.

Key points, the box is not the spell, one phantasm can affect an entire area, creating multiple illusions within that area, and where is the aura of the spell? At the center of the area, anywhere the caster wishes? On the caster? It's not specified. All that is specified is that . . . one more time . . . you must succeed on an Assensing Test to realize that you're being fooled by an illusion.

Demerzel, the aura of a spell is everywhere the spell is. So multiple boxes or whatever in an area all look lit-up in astral space.

Here is an angle I don't recall us dicussing yet. Objects in the material world are subject to the laws of physics. So a gun can be modified as long as it doesn't break those laws. To alter the laws of physics, you need a metaphysical technique, such as Magic. An illusion can be such a spell.

A spell works within the framework of the laws of Magic. It therefore has an aura which is instantly seen. In order to alter the laws of Magic, you must use a Meta-Magical technique, such as Masking, or in particular Extended Masking (SM p. 60-61): " ...allows the initiate to extend her Masking metamagic to encompass her foci and any spells she may have quickened, anchored, or may be sustaining..... To detect auras concealed with Extended Masking, a character need only make the usual Assensing + Intuition Opposed Test against the masking initiate's Intuition + Magic + initiate grade."

So, an illusion works on the material plane but not on the astral plane until it is Masked.

Comments?

while that's an interesting explanation, pbangarth, and I agree with where you end up, making a parallel between the words metaphysical and metamagic doesn't prove the point.

Since the rules don't go into detail on the form the aura of a spell takes, then why can you use that nonspecificity to overrule the statement that an assensing test is required, rather than modify your unsupported interpretation of the aura of spells to match that printed rule?

Because it states there IS an aura, and that no test is required to determine what type of thing an aura is (spell, spirit, living creature, etc.)

edit to add: and it's not the domain of illusion spells to mask auras.

But why would the presence of a spell aura immediately make an astral being assume that the box is an illusion? It could be that some joker has anchored a hihe-force manaball to the box or someone is sustaining levitate on it or someone invented a Turn to Box spell and the box is actually a poor unfortunate person.

But you have no description of what a spells aura is like or any information regarding it's shape or form except in the statement that it becomes obvious if you succeed on an Assensing Test. Yet you'd prefer to ignore that, based on what? Nothing?

You need to make a distinction between astral perception and assensing. One is a skill one is a style of vision. The fact that the illusion can't fool assensing means that it cannot fool a dedicated attempt to read the aura. The attempt to percieve is affected by the illusion.

Lets get back to the original topic. Does the Concealment power make Assensing more difficult? I say yes and here is my justification.

I have always viewed the Concealment power as making a character blend into the terrain around him more easily, not just by altering the character directly, but also by altering the terrain. Spirit Powers can already affect things outside of their Target. Accident, for example, could weaken a rope holding up a piano above the Target's head. Some interpretations of the Movement power have it work by altering the air around a flying target and the ground beneath a running target's feet.

Out in the wilderness, there is no question that a character's aura could blend in with the aura's of plants and animals around him, making it much more difficult to spot a living creature in a forest or a jungle. For concealment to make it just that much more difficult to differentiate one living aura from another makes perfect sense. The who aura masking issue only really crops up in industrial areas where there will not be much life at all, and I am going to go so far as to say that the power can deal with this situation, as well, by causing subtle alterations to the terrain that make it more difficult for an astral being to spot the aura. It is, after all, a very abstract power.