Ahh, a magic group. In the words of the commander of SG-1, Colonel Jack O'neill:

'Huh?'

I understand very little about magic groups, and I just hope you guys know what you are doing.

And by the way, Primal, I use NCOIC because I can never remember how to spell sergeant. NCOIC means Non commissoned Officer In Charge. A non-commissioned officer is, in broad terms, a sergeant, though in the US Army, it starts at E-4, or Corporal.

I believe that quote is "Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and go well with ketchup."

I think that dealing with dragons is fine, it means we have some use other than as a light snack. Meddleing could probably be likened to saying no to him... He's already decided that we're the ones he wants, and we're gonna be the pawns in some huge draconic macheavellian power struggle anyway.

PS: I just wanna be taught Invoking metamagic by ghostwalker...

Hypotheical question here....

Would it be possible to... /KILL/ Ghostwalker?

Not saying I want to, of course. Then we'd be out of the job and most likely dead, but just as a contigency, I think we need plans on how to waste this guy. Why? Because I've checked, and I go good with just about any condiment, and that makes me wary.

On a more serious issue, that Magic group sounds like a good idea. Is this detailed in MITS?

Well, they killed (or at least heavily wounded) Feuerschwinge... Ghostwalker can be killed, though whether or not we can do it is highly questionable. Certainly not with current gear; we'd need all of the heavy weaponry and gear that was verboten at chargen.

And yes, magical groups are in MitS.

~J

I think Jupe got the Seargent spot, not Primal.

Anyways, I don't want to have to do the screaming sir stuff. I just want everyone to jump when I say so. Because we are acting as a merc team, and the whole shadowrunner individualality(sp)= death on the battlefield. It also has a tendancy to lead to broken contracts, which Jupe is not afraid to eliminate someone for attempting.

Then again, we should write all contracts with an "out" option if the situation radically changes.

In Dot6w it gives some more in-depth looks at dragons. Great dragons, essentially, have karma pools of around 50 or so. Not only do they have karma pools of 50 or so, but they can use their karma to "twist fate". They can spend a karma to make you reroll all of your successes on a roll, or to cancel the expenditure of a point of karma by someone else.

It may be technically possible to kill one, but not before you shoot yourself in the foot with that rocket launcher you were about to use.

Also: Ghostwalker is renown even among dragons for his conjuring ability. His charisma is probably in the reigon of 16-18, and you can expect that many spirits (or more) to be on call for him 24/7.

The other part of the twist fate power is that they can loan you points of karma pool to other people on a temporary basis... This is the possible advantage to working with dragons.

we should dikote Ghostwalker

Yes!

~J

Can we turn him into a PAC though?

No need, he has AVS form. Only teh Silvergun does 256DN, has no recoil, is SA/BF/FA, and cures cancer. I win Shadowrun!

~J

Not to make waves but rather than debate over who and who is not a "Sergent" why don't we just drop the whole thing and say there are no friggin' Sergents. The whole idea is rather silly if you ask me. I for one have no interest in "roleplaying" if roleplaying means waiting around to take orders from our higher ups.

As Sphynx has pointed out we're a group of Mercs, that means Soldiers for Higher, that means the only "Leader" we should be really following is whoever is writing the checks. That doesn't mean that I don't think we shouldn't have somebody (preferably somebody who has high Small Unit Tactics and Leadership skills) who coordinates our operations and somebody with high Etiquette and Negotiation who acts as our frontman for dealing with clients (Johnsons, Mafia, Dragons, Whatever) but this person or persons should be given the jobs because they are the people who have the best talents for helping the group not because they're a "higher rank."

Now the fun in this for me is the roleplaying and I appreciate that some of you might have characters who have military backgrounds and are on the Hard nosed and Straight laced sides but to expect the rest of us as players to just sit around and wait for orders before we act or just have our characters stand around while you try to draft us and berate us is silly, selfish, and (need I point out) SLOW!

That all said I for one am content with Rhiev as our nominal leader who has the skills to see that our jobs get done succesfully and maybe he or Strife or somebody can deal with the negotiations but that's it for me. No great chain of command in this game or sorry guys I'm out.

Oh and Rheiv's Player I appreciate the effort you've put in developing your character's personality and i can appreciate the effort you put into your IC rant last Sunday but don't you think Rheiv should have known that our guys are mercenary not military and we go where the action and the money are. He might not like what we do when he's not around but he'd better accept it our he'll find himself without a team to work with.

I don't know if sergeants would be all that game-killingly boring... I agree that it could, but I think it might work so I'm for giving it a chance. IIRC, it's also part of the character concept for some people.

How I could see it working is the sergeant is in-charge of the big picture where we arein charge of our individual tasks. The sargeant considers the bigger picture and, if something needs to be done that we're not already doing as part of our section (spell defense is something we have forgotten a coupple of times before), then the sergeant's reminds us that we need to do it and probably helps do it himself if possible.

[edit] Also the SUT skill is limited to a number of people equal to your skill level. As we have around 10 people, we will need more than one person with SUT (unless they have SUT6 and a maxxed-out tactical computer), and having distinct subdivisions should remove the possibility of conflicting orders. [/edit]

I've always been seeing my role as a sergeant as just someone who gives the others a broad idea of what I want done and let you guys sort out how you're gonna do it.... Well that and to look after the larger battleplans so we don't start shooting each other.... Plus I'd probably only be giving any orders when we're on a battlefield, if we're kicking about in Seattle Strife's pretty much gonna assume you know what to do unless you start doing something *really* numb. And yes I've got Small Unit Tactics at about 4 but I don't remember the limit of how many you can command but then again never had SUT to as bigg a group as this *8->

I'm following this plan, pretty much. I don't expect people to wait, and you can all get involved in the planning stages as much as you want. But as soon as we have a plan, it's my job (and the other Sgt) to make sure it works as intended. It's also our jobs to make sure any reactions we have to make suddenly are cohesive.

I also thought Rheiv's thing was cool, but out of place. We aren't a military unit in the true sense of the word.

But like hell I'm going to have a debate on the battlefield. That's primarily what I want to avoid

I'm all good for having debates on the battlefield.

Just as long as no one has mortars.

"I'm telling you, they were cannons!"
"Then what were they set up like mortars for, then?"

~J

Jupe, Sorry, not really sure on who was the Mage NCO. Was a long time from the planning phase of the game, And I got confused, so I'll edit me list.

As for HelperMonkey's remark on the function of the unit, I'd like to point out that a Merc unit usually has the cohesion and command sturcture of a military unit. In any case, The NCO rolls are mostly for administration purposes, as in, some Mages want cash for focuses, so they petiton the mage NCO, who petitions the CO. Also, if we have to split the teams up, the NCO's will most likely act as secondary commanders.

Is the game going to be running tomorrow? If so: Is it going to be another AIM deal or is the telnet program going to be back up? It's perfectly understandable if it's not on, it's just better to know what's happeneing sooner rather than later.

cant connect to sphynx's telnet client so me and Primal are sitting in DSF Mercenaries on AIM again - meet there till we hear from sphynx i guess

Ok, since we can't expect help from GW with the formation of our magic group, lets talk about what we should do there.

I see two ways to do it. A single group with a base TN of 16 (+4 for letting adepts and hermetics in with shaman) rolling 5 dice, or divide into two groups, shaman together and me and diarmuid together, rolling 3 dice for base TN 12 and 2 dice for base TN 14.

I recomend we set up two groups. The 3 shaman in one group and Hector the adept and Diarmuid in the other. This kills a possible +4 TN for the shaman group and gives only a +2 TN mod for the 2nd group. So base TN for shaman group = 12 and base TN for mage/adept group = 14. As opposed to a single group with TN of 16.

For 2nd group, I recomend we have the following nine strictures: Attendance, beleif (some kind of moral belief here, like only killing when necessary, or valuing sentient life or freedom or whatever we can decide between us), deed, fraternity, geasa, secrecy, limited membership (mercenary, or GW Ghost), material link, and oath. These drop TN to 5. Which, with two dice and karma to reroll should only take a month or two to hit, we may even get lucky and link right away. With similar strictures, the other group would have 3 dice with TN of 3, for pretty much a garunteed link. The other way we are likely looking at 5 dice with TN of 7 if we can all agree on nine strictures, which with one reroll we are likely to succeed at, but can all five of us agree on nine strictures?

Post your ideas, especially if there are any strictures you would absolutely refuse to agree to so we can get a better idea of how we should best do this. Please respond quickly so we can have this all decided and ready for next game session.

-Hector

I personally would prefer it with everyone in the same group but I suppose we can do it more easily if we split it.

It also depends on how much karma pool we can put towards rerolls, and how sphynx allows us to apply karma pool. Grouping our karma we could spend enough for 2 rerolls (3 karma pool), 3 (6 karma pool) if a mundane is willing to put a karma towards team karma, that's effectively 15-20 dice. Even versus TN11, 5 dice with 2 rerolls dice have a 57.57% chance of scoring 1 or more successes. If we take all of the strictures you suggested that puts us on a TN of 7, which with 5 dice and 2 rerolls gives us a 93% chance of success.

On the topic of stricures: I'm not sure about the deed stricture... Most of the stuff we're doing isn't literally for the group's benefit and I'm not sure we'd be able to devote enough time to it.

What all happened at the meet?

~J

Howdy folks for those of you who couldn't stick around at the end of the game this afternoon (or last night for you folks across the pond) we decided to slip into Aztlan using land routes because Kalinn/UtahRapto's Tilt-Wing won't be able to hold all of us plus our gear so we'll need to buy an SUV to haul all of the stuff. We'll Be following the smuggling routes listed in the back of Target:Smuggler Havens namely the Big Dance, which goes from Seattle to Denver, and then the End Run which goes from Denver to San Angelo Texas and on to the ruins of Austin. We can try to slip the border anywhere in the state but the book recommends the area near Austin becasue we will probably get some cover from CAS grunts in the area.

So basically we'll need to break up into two teams. The majority of our group will take the tilt wing and head down to San Angelo or DFW (lot of Azzie refugees here with ties to the Rebs) and see if you can use any of your exsisting contacts or make new ones to make contact with with Azzie Rebels, CAS Green Berets, Texas Rangers (Using Anarchists Guide to North America for this idea), or anybody else who can help us slip the border. The SUV will follow behind with one driver and one spell slinger riding shotgun just in case. Strife has a wicked high reaction rating so she's been drafted to be the driver and I've volunteered Jeger to ride along. We'll meet up with you in Texas and hopefully by then we'll be ready to make the crossing.

Last thing is the SUV. Given our money/time constraints we picked the Nissan-Holden Brumby which is only 19,000. Divided 8 ways that's 2375 nuyen each so make sure you deduct that from your balance before you start buying too much gear.

I think that covers everything. If you have any questions, comments, or criticisms you can take them up with Sphynx, post here, or you can e-mail me at spinozai@yahoo.com.

Oh one question. Do any characters in the group habla Espanol?

If by Español you mean Deutsch, then yes. Otherwise, not me.

~J

I do.

And I notice that the Henequen angle has still been totally ignored.

Sorry Moosegod most of us had no idea who Hanequen was so we didn't really talk about him much. As I said before you are welcome to look up any of your contacts. If Hanequen's one of your contacts feel free to try and use him to help us slip the border. If he's somebody we should have heard of before you might want to post a brief description of him and whatever sourcebooks, adventures, or novels he's appeared in.

Try Dot6w P165. He's an Adult Feathered Serpent if you're wondering, and he is assisting the rebels by giving them weapons, armor, and presumably training.

We are using Hen. He is going to help us know when and where to cross in exchange for us taking a load of cargo across for him. We will see if he can vouch for us to the rebels as well.

I don't think we need anyone to vouch for us to the rebels. As I recall GW already has a contact for us. I personally find the idea of runners just calling up even a minor dragon and saying "Hoi can you give us a hand" kind of far fetched. I mean from the stuff I've read it's not like dragons are exactly common in the 6th world.

hmmm working for a dragon and asking a different one for a hand *8-> This should get to be fun..... now where did I put thaat dragon lance..... *8->

Well: Ghostwalker and Henequen have a history, Henequen was lairing in Denver before Ghostwalker came back and claimed his domain.

I don't think it's that bitter a point between the two, henequen probably knew it was going to happen, but we're still not going to be mentioning links with Ghostwalker due to the whole "No Ties" thing.

Unless I am mistaken, he has already been called up and has already offered to help.

So what all are we getting from him?

~J

IIRC: He was gonna ensure safe arrival and acceptance by the rebels in exchange for us smuggling a load of weapons across the boarder.

PS: Kagetenchi, what does Diarmuid have in the way of enchanting gear? I was hoping to bring some refined materials with us on the helicopter for making elemental conjuring materials.

He's got nothing whatsoever for enchanting gear, sadly.
So all we're getting is just an introduction and passage? Are we getting anything from Ghostwalker? Gear, cash, anything?

~J

Ah. Have you considered getting some with the 10k we got from Ghostwalker? Sphynx-willing, I'm getting a 2nd set (for when me and my ally need to work at the same time) but we could go halfers (5k each). I am possibly taking a significant quantity of refined materials (162.5kgs of the stuff) but that depends what load we have available.

Essentially: I don't know how easy it will be to get our hands on enchanting materials in the Yucatan, which is why I'm bringing most of the refined stuff (not the raw stuff, and not the 100kgs of refined tin and lead). The stuff I'm bringing is good for around 26 force-worth of elementals which should last us most of the month.

To the whole team: Don't forget to keep some money to pay for the first few days of your next month's Seattle lifestyle.

Right, well, the 10k from Ghostwalker falls under the catagory of "stuff people need to tell me about". That was the first I'd heard of it. Good to know... what exactly are the details of what he told us? Thanks in advance.

Also, OOC we need to consider why Ghostwalker is hiring us. He stated that part of the reason he hired us was that he was impressed by our attempt to prevent the death of the crew of the ship, but Ghostwalker doesn't strike me as the type to be concerned about metahumanity. Why, then, would that be important? Is he lying? I can't see a reason for it. Is he trying to get a group that will not only help out, but will also make the rebels look good by not killing people right and left?

~J

Don't forget about the magic group as well. If you guys don't post then I am going to assume you wanna do two groups and I will just talk with Diar about what he wants.

Good point. Moosegod? HelperMonkey? Would you prefer 2 smaller groups (1 with 3 members and 1 with 2) or 1 group with 5 members?

Crunching some numbers (9 strictures):
Chance of the 5-man group suceeding: 5 Dice TN7 = 93.51% (Includes 2 rerolls)
or
Chance of the 3-man all-Shamanic group succeeding: 5 Dice TN3 = 99.99% (Includes 2 rerolls)
Chance of the 2-man Hermetic/Adept group succeeding: 2 Dice TN5 = 80.25% (Includes 1 reroll. 91.22% with 2 rerolls)
Both Succeeding: 80.24% (91.21% with 2 rerolls on the Hermetic/Adept group)

Well: The chance of everyone being in a group is higher if everyone is in the same group, but we're almost assured to get the 3-man shamanic group running if we split it (and spend the 3 karma for 2 rerolls). Hector and Diarmuid are better-off in the larger group. Even if they manage to get another point of karma for a 2nd reroll they are less likely to succeed.

my concern is can 5 people all agree on 9 strictures? I have put forwards the ones I am willing to agree too - if everybody is then we are likely ok, otherwise we may be better off splitting

For all the talk its genereating, this Mage group better be like gangbusters.

Like, very much like.

~J

OK. This is the stuff 3Threes suggested:
Attendance, Beleif, Deed, Fraternity, Geasa, Secrecy, Limited Membership, Material Link, and Oath

I think everything there is fine, with the possible exception of Attendance (What if one meeting was at a mission critical point?) and Deed (Not sure exactly what counts as a deed. If simply working in the GW Ghosts is enough then it's fine)

TN9 with 5 dice and 2 rerolls is still definately possible though (82.91% chance).

[edit] Also, game-time wise, we'd be best to try sooner rather than later as I think we need to wait a while before we can try again. We could possibly also try the full monty (5 in one group) but if that fails try the smaller groups [/edit]

I'm fine with just about everything Lilt listed except for maybe Secrecy and Attendance. I don't think Attendance should be a problem even if some of were on different missions since everybody we got can astrally project so meeting could be had on the astral plain. Secrecy I see as being a bigger monkeywrench for a group of Mercs though. It just seems like it'd be too tough to actually keep a lid on who were and what we were doing since we all work as a team.

I'd also like to maybe suggest the idea of taking the Obedience since some of us want to work with a chain of command system. I'd be more willing to take orders because another player had a higher initiation rating or more "deeds" not just because they called themself Sergent.

Another problem I see is if we adopt the belief and oath strictures can we agree on what exactly our belief will be? Also if we have exclusive membership what exactly is our membership based on.

I like the idea of having a belief system basted around the fact that we're pretty much all combat type characters. Something along the lines of "no skinny girly man mages allowed."

As far as one group or two either is fine with me but I lean a little more toward one big group.

I can see Diarmuid having a problem with the Obedience stricture. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong Kagetenchi, but he dosen't seem to be the obedient type. It also means that if the sergeant gives an order based on incorrect reading of the situation then we need to follow. It's not the greatest concern though.

Silence is virtually free for us. As-long-as the group's nature is not known to the general public, then we're fine. If the existance of our magical group gets out, then so-too (probably) does the existance of the ghosts, then we're all screwed. IE: If everyone keeps their mouths shut (as we were going to do anyway) then I think we're fine.

My problem with Attendance is that the meeting may be on a date when not all people can attend. Sure: We can be physically separate, but we don't want to disrupt the team's activities for the magic group. (like saying "attack the weapons shipment tomorrow, we have a meeting today")

Hey, as long as you mages support us indirectly, hey, go ahead and have your meetings. The Mundanes will take care of all the other promblems.

As an interesting note, inspired by Lantzer's post in the "Package deals" thread, it would be nice to get earned nicknames/callsigns for people.

IE: Hector could be nicknamed Boob or something due to his social ineptitude (not that I'm actually reccomending it) or Diarmuid could be nicknamed Deckz due to his tendancy to engross himself in his hermetic work... These are silly suggestions, but it's something that might bear consideration for the next few sessions.

Guys the secrecy stricture doesn't mean that no-0one must find out about the ghosts. It just means that you don't tell people about the MAGICAL group's existance, ie. you don't go advertising for extra magic slingers/adepts to join. It will NOT impact the merc group's publicity at all. Plus it does say that if the magical group has agreed to invite another person to join you can approach them and offer them a place.....

Sorry if this comes out wrong and sounds like I'm yelling at you guys I'm not trying to it's just I've said this a couple of times and everyone keeps ignoring me..... secrecy is probably the easiest stricture for a shadowrunner magical group to take and really is pretty hard to break unless you're being *really* talkative about things you shouldn't *8->

Again sorry it sounds like a lecture.... was aiming for fact statement and probably missed by a country mile *8->