I have the mecha and manga book. Skype me if you want it.

Can't play tomorrow. Computer issues.

Someone statted Sergeant Shlock, right Here.

on august 15th there is going to be an all day minicon, i believe this one is going to be in Santa Maria. I was over on the SLO 40k players forum and saw that there will be another person running a shadowrun game there.

I'm back online.

Edit: My parents decided to go on sunday instead, so i will be there for the game.

I wont be able to play tomorrow as I will be on a flight to Hawaii (just in time for a hurricane, it seems)

A) Yes you can.

B) There's nothing broken about it

A container is just a way of organizing powers. Sometimes you have an idea for a power that no single power covers, so you link them together and call it a container--many of the core powers are examples of this. Yes, I know UP has a structure called (Container) that's worded a little different, but if you look closely you'll see it's the same thing with a predefined number of power-points.

For example, Super-Speed from Ultimate Power is a container, containing Quickness, Speed, Improved Initiative, and a 2 point Super-Speed Array.

If you were to make an alternate form, you'd make a container with all the powers that alternate form has. If that form has super-speed, you'd have a container within a container.

In fact, you'd have an array within a container within a container...

...and if you were to take Air Control as your Super-Speed array power, and then start taking the alternate powers of Air Control...

Array within array within container within container.

Neither against the rules nor broken in any way--just hilariously complex.

it can be broken though. Take for example the base container power structure that gives you 5 points for the 5 you spend, now you take a flaw make it 4 for 5 and put another container with a flaw on it in that container. With enough containers you can get unlimited power points.

I was more implying that you can't put the same container insides itself. You have a character, not a Klien Bottle.

Only if your GM is retarded.

Applying flaws to a container is functionally the same as applying that flaw to every power within the container individually--worse, actually, because you only get +1 pp per 5 points in the container instead of +1 pp per rank from each of the powers in the container.

And you can't get infinite power points that way for the same reason you can't get them from applying flaws to a single power: You'll eventually run out of applicable flaws, and your GM will pimp-slap you with a rulebook long before that.

On a different note:

Had a few rules questions for M&M I wanted to run by you guys. I'm in the process of signing up on the Atomic Think Tank board so I can ask there, but since Tom's the one who's going to be running our game I figure I should get his take on it.

1) Does a visual Dazzle effect require the Affects Objects extra to work on cameras and such? For that matter, what precisely are objects immune to? All the book says is that they only have Toughness saves and *sometimes* have immunities. Are they considered immune to effects requiring a save they don't have, or what?

2) [Edit] Had a better idea. Could I have the following as a Super-Speed array power:

[edit 2] Bastards changed how the Autofire Extra works, I've altered my post to match.

Autofire Attack (2 pp/rank)

You can use your super-speed to attack as rapidly as a machine-gun. For each rank of Super-Speed, you get 1 rank of Autofire, which can be assigned to one of your attacks as a free action once per round. Divide the number of Autofire ranks you have by the rank of the attack you want to improve to determine the power's effect:

Autofire Rank = 1x Attack's rank: Autofire 1
Autofire Rank = 2x Attack's rank: Autofire 2
Autofire Rank = 3x Attack's rank: Autofire 3

Excess ranks have no effect, and you cannot use this power on attacks with more ranks than your Autofire Rank.

Example: Fast Bastard (PL 10) has a super-speed array with Autofire Attack 6. He also has Blast 2, Strike 5 and a Strength of 15. As a free action each round, Fast can apply his Autofire Attack to either his Strength or his Strike, gaining Autofire 1 with that attack (15 Strength for a PL 10 character is 5 ranks over the starting value, Autofire 6 / 5 ranks of Strength or Strike = 1.2), or he can apply it to his blast, gaining Autofire 3 (Autofire 6 / Blast 2 = 3). If his Strike had the mighty feat, however, he wouldn't be able to use his Autofire Attack with that power, since it would cost 10 ranks to add Autofire 1 to both his Strength and Strike power.

So Tom, any problems with this? I know it's kind of odd turning an effect into a power, but Rapid Attack does something similar with burst area and I feel this better represents the idea of someone who can attack ridiculously fast due to super-speed.

(In other news, I now feel compelled to stat up "Fast Bastard" as a PC )

There is the Attack Flurry Feat from Mecha and Manga, which pretty much does the same thing. I'd say rather than the overly complicated thing you have above, Make a 1-point Boost Power, limited to Self. 9 or 12 ranks lets you apply Autofire to Any attack. You could change the action to free, but that would cost lots.

You could also have a varaible array 12 that alters between Autofire 12, Autofire 6 and autofire 3, and aply them to set attacks.

Or could put the above powers in your super speed container.

The flurry feat is crap compared to autofire. It uses the same mechanic but nerfs it into laughability, which I guess is okay for a feat compared to an attack extra.

The other two options just aren't balanced with Rapid Attack, which is what I based this power off of. Basically I intended it to be a replacement for Rapid Attack (for me anyway) since I feel autofire captures the feel of super-speed attacks better than a burst area.

Another option I came up with was this:

"Autofire Attack applies the autofire effect to any attack with a rank equal to or less than it's own. This power costs 1 pp/rank for Autofire 1, 2 pp/rank for Autofire 2, and 3 pp/rank for autofire 3"

Essentially taking a page from Deflect there. It'd be simpler to determine the effects, but you'd lose versatility and occasionally power points, when using it on significantly lower ranked attacks.

I guess I could settle for that, but it's a bit weaker and I really don't see the first version as overcomplicated. It's only one quick operation on a calculator (Autofire Rank / Attack Rank), I just couldn't find a simple way of explaining it. All my attacks are going to have a pre-determined rank anyways, allowing me to calculate ahead of time and then just watch for multiples.

so are you saying that you want to take autofire once as an extra for superspeed and get it for all of your attacks? that would be too powerful if it was what you were asking, i would suggest just using superspeed as your fluff reasoning behind why you can autofire with your attacks.

Oh don't you start being an asshole too--I got enough of that crap on the Atomic Think Tank forum.

Besides, I know where you live.

Looking at the post, it seems I took out some of the explanation in the last edit, so I'll repost:

The Rapid Attack power, which is one of the 2 pp/rank options for the Super-Speed array, is essentially a Selective (1 pt ) Burst Area (1 pt) with a 1 point "works on all melee attacks" modifier.

Since I felt that Autofire better represents a flurry of super-speed attacks, and they're both +1 modifiers, I wanted to make an equivalent power based on Autofire instead of Area.

Problem is, Area can increase indefinitely with rank, while Autofire caps at three, so you can't do a straight swap of the effects and have it still be usable past rank 3.

Basically, you get two things with each rank of area: A larger area, and the ability to use it with a higher ranked attack. The Rapid Attack extra ignores the first part, letting it work with any melee attack no matter what the rank, but limits the size of the area to your super-speed rank.

So in order to make the autofire version work, I switched it: The rank of autofire stays the same, but the level of attack you can use it with is tied to your super-speed rank.

Problem is, Rapid Attack also has the selective extra, which doesn't work with autofire, and Selective (+1) Area (+1) Works on All Melee Attacks (+1) would be 3 points per rank, not 2.

So I reasoned that Rapid Attack is actually: Burst Area (+1), Selective (+1), All Attacks (+1), Melee Only (-1)...

...then I took the Melee Only flaw off the Autofire version.

Another thing to consider is that a melee only area is going to hit a lot more targets than a melee only autofire, because no matter the rank you're still limited to adjacent targets, so between that and the selective exrta that Rapid Attack has, leaving the Autofire Version "melee only" would have been underpowered. As it is it's still weaker than Rapid Attack, and I also put the (sorta) restriction in that you have to spend a free action to assign the Autofire to an attack before you use it--which Rapid Attack doesn't require.

ok, i didn't really read rapid attack. I just saw that you would pay once for an extra to get it on all of your attacks and that seemed broken, but since they are essentially analogous i guess it's alright . Where is works on all attacks extra? Does it actually exist or did you just come up with it to explain the extra +1 to its cost?

AH! The problem is you are mis understanding how Autofire works! They both Scale infinitly. You

You have to apply autofire to each rank of the power for it to work. It comes in A +1 points per rank variety, a +2 Points per rank one, and a +3 version. The version you pick raises the cost of the power by that much.

Frex: A Strike costs 1/rank, an Area Strike costs 2/rank, and an Autofire 3 Strike costs 4/rank.

C'mon Tom, I know you're not that ignorant--or blind.



Autofire doesn't scale like that. You get the infinitely scaling "works with this level of attack" effect, but the Autofire effect itself only scales 3 times, while Area's size scales infinitely in addition to it's ability to work with progressively more powerful attacks. Area gives you both, Autofire only gives you one.

You're an engineer man, you shouldn't miss stuff like this--especially when I'd already spelled it out for you.



I made it up to explain the cost. Going by the rules, it's actually probably more like:

Power: Universal Extra (1 pp/rank)
Effect: Extras attached to this power can be applied to any of your attacks.

Extras: Area (Burst) +1/rank, Selective +1/rank
Flaws: Limited (Melee Only) -1/rank

I wouldn't recommend letting it apply to everything though--there's probably a lot of ways you could really break the game with a power like that. But seeing as Area and Autofire are roughly equivalent, and there's already a core power that works this way, it works out in this case.

Think of it more as a way to visualize the cost of this one power, than an actual effect you could apply to other extras indiscriminately.

In other news, I finally finished statting Conduit, AKA Johnny Bedlam. I dropped his Probability Control power to give him +2 PL and raise his Damage Control power to Rank 12. When he stops holding back or uses extra effort, he can hit PL 15 (I also took the Untapped Potential feat that gives you +3 ranks when you use extra effort instead of the normal +2), and if he uses extra effort while not holding back, his Damage Control power can hit rank 20.

I don't quite get the idea you are trying to convey.

Area gives you an area that gets bigger the more power you dump into it. Autofire makes up for this by breaking the friggin level cap.

You may have a point there, after all, the designer seemed to think the two extras were equivalent. Then again, he can't seem to remember how he came up with Absorption. :biggrin:

Bottom line, with Rapid Attack, you're getting Area (Burst) and Selective, applied to all melee actions regardless of rank, for 2 pp, with each additional 2 pp increasing the area's size.

Since Area, Selective, and Autofire are all +1 extras, it follows that they should be at least roughly equivalent. The bigger question is whether "Works with all ranged attacks too" is also equivalent to a +1 extra. After all, it's essentially doubling the effectiveness--but we don't really have guidelines for that, just that flaws should roughly halve effectiveness.

With that in mind, I have three proposals on how to make this work:

Autofire 2, works with all melee attacks (2 pp/rank)
Effect: Works with all attacks (1 pp/rank)
Extra: Autofire 2 (+2 pp/rank)
Flaw: Melee Only (-1 pp/rank)

Autofire 1, works with all attacks (2 pp/rank)
Effect: Works with all attacks (1 pp/rank)
Extra: Autofire 1 (+1 pp/rank)

-or-

Fuck trying to figure out Rapid Attack, just go with this:

Autofire Attack (2pp/rank)
Autofire (+1 pp/rank)
Mighty (+1 pp/rank)
Not limited by rank, but doesn't stack damage (0 pp/rank)

The idea there is that the autofire is being applied to the user's strength, which 1 rank of mighty will let stack with any touch-ranged attack, but for ranged attacks you're limited to your ranks in the Mighty feat. So effectively you've got Autofire 1 on all melee attacks, and on any ranged attack with a rank equal or less than your Autofire Attack rank.

Problem with option three is it's distinctly less powerful, although it does neatly sidestep the question of how the hell Rapid Attack is supposed to work. Honestly I'm thinking just go with option one up there and I'll slap the Mighty Feat on all my ranged attacks as an extra.

A variant on this- Strike 0 with Mighty and Autofire. Basicly what you are doing. Rapid attack is messed up.

Rapid Attack isn't really messed up. It just gives an extra to your non-power melee attacks. You can use it on a strike, but not a Strike.

Granted, that makes it quite nice for, say, someone who doesn't use powers to attack with.

Nope, that's how it is supposed to work, but the way that it's worded is that it works on any melee attack.

Where in the wording does it say any melee attack?

yeah, i don't see anything about it being with any attack.

So now we know why your logic is flawed Reiku. It applies Area, and Selective to your Unarmed attack. You could apply autofire 2 to your unarmed attack for the same cost.

You would just need to take a seperate AP for each attack you want use it on.

Also, I will be 1/2 an Hour late.

Those words are more than your life is worth, omae.



Wrong.



The phrase "normal strike" could be misinterpreted as meaning "only a regular strength based strike, and not Strike powers" but that's reading into it and adding more meaning than the words themselves have.

In this context "normal strike" means a plain ol' damaging attack, as contrasted with "a special action like Disarm or Trip", the source or nature of the strike is not limited in any express or implied way.

I know word-twisting arguments are popular these days, but the "doesn't work with strike powers" interpretation is strictly wrong and doesn't make sense functionally either, since the Strike power is used to represent such things as natural claws or the like.

STOP USING RAPID ATTACK AS A STANDARD!

IT'S LIKE USEING LANCE ARMSTRONG AS A STANDARD FOR BICYCLEISTS!

DO THIS THE EASY WAY!!!!

JUST ADD AUTOFIRE TO YOUR ATTACK. AP'S COST 1 PP. YOU CAN AFFORD SEVERAL. IF YOU PICK UP A NEW WEAPON! POWER STUNT!

cruise control for cool...

If we finish the Star Wars session by 10pm or so, will we be starting up the M&M game, or going home early?

Depends on what you guys want to do.

Wow, I think I broke Tom--where can we get a new one?

Honestly, you guys made a massively bigger deal out of that than it needed to be--and for my part...

...well, I never could back down from good argument, heh.

Anyway, looking forward to the big sibling throwdown tonight.

I might be a bit late this Friday. I'm running an 8-hour D&D game right before.

i might be out of it during the game, i got a flight at 4 am to Minnesota today and I'm not going to sleep before it.

Heh, so many absences lately...

Not to beat a dead horse, with a shovel, in a ditch, but I recently had a new thought about the Rapid Attack super-speed power:

In ultimate power is says you can apply an extra to only some of the ranks of a power--ie, you could buy area at rank 3 for 3 points, and it would function as a rank 3 area, regardless of the rank of the effect it's attached to.

With that in mind, Rapid Attack could be:

Area (Burst) +1/rank
Selective +1/rank

...applied to strength for a total cost of 2pp/rank, independent of how many "ranks" of strength you had. That would explain the point cost and cover pretty much everything the power does.

Of course, the Autofire effect is one of those that can't be partially applied, so capping the rank of attack that it works with would just be a side-effect of how it works.

In that case, "Autofire Attack" would be pretty much what we figured before: 2pp/rank for Autofire 2, applied to strength, and it only works if the your Autofire Attack rank matches your damage bonus.

Fun with madness.

i would have to say that applied to strength would be only for melee or thrown attacks

Exactly. Which is how Rapid Attack or whatever it's called already works, pretty much. There's the issue of whether it works with Strike powers or not--strict grammar would say yes, but the writers might have just fucked up there--but otherwise what I described would do everything Rapid Attack does and be completely within the rules.

As for my character, and getting him to do ranged autofire blasts--I already have full mighty on all his ranged attack powers, so it's a non-issue.

Might be late tomorrow. Busy packing up stuff

D&D Jones Soda

Becouse a nice tall glass of SNEAK ATTACK would hit the spot.

A part of me just died. No really, wtf? Has Wizards finally succumbed to consumerism?

What do you mean "finally"?

Okay not finally, but completely.

They Also have a Magic: The Gathering version.

I'm thinking about dropping from the group. As fun as it is playing with you guys, I find M&M not to be that much interesting (not much of a comic fan either). That, and Bob is trying to run a 7th seas game at Game Theory.

I understand. Good Gaming> Mediocre Gaming.

It wasn't that bad. You guys always made things more...over the top then it needed to be, and it was fun but I really losing interests in playing scifi based games. Okay they had fantasy aspects, but really, I'm getting tired trying to figure how things are built. A wizard did it seems very much a acceptable answer.

i'm not gonna be there tonight

Damn, we're hemorrhaging players!

Ah well. Honestly, I wouldn't mind a more serious roleplaying experience myself--but what we do is alot of fun as well. Even if it does descend into rediculosity every once in a while.

Speaking of rediculosity, my new gear:

Choke Collar [Equiptment 1] 1pp
-----------------------------------------
Choke Collar [Rank 5] 5pp
Damage: 1/rank
-Extras-
Continuous: +2/rank
-Flaws-
Nonleathal Only: -1/rank
Requires Grapple: -1/rank
-----------------------------------------

If you've ever seen those pit bull collars with the inward-facing barbs you know what this is. Effectively deals rank 5 damage each round after you put it on someone. Or if you're my character, you can wear it around as a fashion statement and get powered up continuously.

[EDIT]
Fucked up on part of my build for the containment suit, reworking it now.
[/EDIT]

[EDIT2]
Also, quick question about auras:

If the effects of an aura are determined separately, does that mean that if I punch a guy with my aura active, he rolls against the damage from the punch, and then rolls against the aura's damage after that is resolved?

IE: Rank 1 STR, Rank 10 Aura. I punch the guy, he rolls a toughness save against the punch (DC 16), and then a toughness save against the Aura (DC 25)

Is that right?

Joining the Scion game?



I think so.

Woot! Containment Suit Mk II:

Control Bracer [Device 2] 6pp
-----------------------------------------
Containment Suit [Rank 2] 3pp
Morph 1: 1/rank
-Flaws-
Action (Move) -1/rank
-Feats-
Progression 2: +2

Entropy Channeling [Rank 2] 2pp
Luck Control: 3/rank
-Flaws-
Side Effect (Jinx): -2/rank

Glow Suppression [Rank 5] 5pp
Subtle: 1/rank
-----------------------------------------
-Extras-
Duration (Continuous): +1/rank
-Flaws-
Action (Move): -1/rank
Hard to Lose: -1/rank
Permanent: -1/rank